Hi,
2 days ago my phone received an OTA update. It was the first update after Android 6.0. After update successfully completed, phone stopped being charged (even with wall charger) and not being detected by the PC. I've searched the web and found methods below but none of them worked.
* Draining all charge on battery and charging with wall charger. Connecting the charger to phone by pressing POWER+VOL.UP buttons together. (Notification light turns to blue). This method charges the phone very slowly. Phone turns back to life but battery drains very quickly. I've made soft reset after charging with this method but nothing changed. Phone is not detected by the PC.
* Semi hard reset with POWER+VOL..DOWN buttons (120 second).
* Hard reset with OFF button.
* USB debugging, enabling USB hub detection. Neither worked?
Is there anyone faced this problem? Or any suggestion?
P.S. Phone is very new, purchased couple of weeks ago. No physical damage, not even starches.
Did you unlock bootloader?
send it back for repair.
gembruce said:
Hi,
2 days ago my phone received an OTA update. It was the first update after Android 6.0. After update successfully completed, phone stopped being charged (even with wall charger) and not being detected by the PC. I've searched the web and found methods below but none of them worked.
* Draining all charge on battery and charging with wall charger. Connecting the charger to phone by pressing POWER+VOL.UP buttons together. (Notification light turns to blue). This method charges the phone very slowly. Phone turns back to life but battery drains very quickly. I've made soft reset after charging with this method but nothing changed. Phone is not detected by the PC.
* Semi hard reset with POWER+VOL..DOWN buttons (120 second).
* Hard reset with OFF button.
* USB debugging, enabling USB hub detection. Neither worked?
Is there anyone faced this problem? Or any suggestion?
P.S. Phone is very new, purchased couple of weeks ago. No physical damage, not even starches.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happened after you did PwrBtn + VolDown?
could u access to FastBoot mode? Inform me if you can access to fastboot
:good:
Geeks Empire said:
What happened after you did PwrBtn + VolDown?
could u access to FastBoot mode? Inform me if you can access to fastboot
:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, I can't access to fastboot mode. I have tried on different PCs, phone is not detected neither in normal nor fastboot modes. By the way, it is not unlocked.
gembruce said:
Hi,
2 days ago my phone received an OTA update. It was the first update after Android 6.0. After update successfully completed, phone stopped being charged (even with wall charger) and not being detected by the PC. I've searched the web and found methods below but none of them worked.
* Draining all charge on battery and charging with wall charger. Connecting the charger to phone by pressing POWER+VOL.UP buttons together. (Notification light turns to blue). This method charges the phone very slowly. Phone turns back to life but battery drains very quickly. I've made soft reset after charging with this method but nothing changed. Phone is not detected by the PC.
* Semi hard reset with POWER+VOL..DOWN buttons (120 second).
* Hard reset with OFF button.
* USB debugging, enabling USB hub detection. Neither worked?
Is there anyone faced this problem? Or any suggestion?
P.S. Phone is very new, purchased couple of weeks ago. No physical damage, not even starches.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope
maciek12 said:
Did you unlock bootloader?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope
same problem exactly here. did you solve the problem?
I have the same problem. I tried all thing which I found on the internet but no luck. My phone was unlocked and rooted.
Yesterday sent it back to repair.
Similar problem here. Since original Sony Nougat update, the phone sometime did not recognize charging, usb needed to be unplugged/replugged. But since 3 days this suddenly does not help anymore. Tried 3 different wall chargers and 2 different cables.
Turning phone off and on again with Volume up + power button sometimes helps to start charging.
Phone has original fw and is not routed! No solution yet
EDIT: Found a (very mysterious) solution!
After removing my hardened glass screen protector (cracked due to a fall), the phone did charge without problems! I could reproduce this with a normal plastic screen protector also - as soon as a corner was lifted a little bit, the phone would not charge any more. Cutting said corner off was enough to start charging again.
Whatever wizardry is going on there, I hope my phone accepts my new hardened glass, because I would not want it without any screen protection at all
Related
hello...i hope that someone can help me....when i try to turn off the device,it shut down and after few seconds reboot?why?
also simetime the phone don't turn on and on screen i see a green battery with a thermo....someon can help me?
Did you find the answer to this? i am sending my SGS2 back for replacement. i have the same errors plus the following.
Phone selects speaker rather than earpiece as default for incoming/outgoing calls
Phone on ocasions randomly starts Kies and Voice commands even if there is no physical contact with the phone
sometimes the phone defaults back to a launcher i have never seen before (it is not touchwiz) and i have no idea how to launch it without it doing it automatically.
The faults you mentioned can be bypassed with a battery pull but they are annoying, I didn't have these problems until i upgraded my firmware through Kies to KE7.
I have an O2 branded device.
woody_2k said:
Did you find the answer to this? i am sending my SGS2 back for replacement. i have the same errors plus the following.
Phone selects speaker rather than earpiece as default for incoming/outgoing calls
Phone on ocasions randomly starts Kies and Voice commands even if there is no physical contact with the phone
sometimes the phone defaults back to a launcher i have never seen before (it is not touchwiz) and i have no idea how to launch it without it doing it automatically.
The faults you mentioned can be bypassed with a battery pull but they are annoying, I didn't have these problems until i upgraded my firmware through Kies to KE7.
I have an O2 branded device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same issues to me... I'm trying to fix it flashing a stock rom without good results yet In the meantime I'm waiting for a USB jig from ebay before to send it to technical service
I have a I9100M(BELL) flashed with cognition 1.32 with same problem.
Randomly my phone will:
-go into driving mode
-answer calls in speaker phone mode
-start alarm clock
-think its charging when the cable is not plugged in
-Reboot it self/turn it self on when its off
-wont connect to computer or charge even when cable is plugged in.
I need to send it in for repairs what should i flash? there is no bell branded firmwares or roms.
jinxedsoul said:
I have a I9100M(BELL) flashed with cognition 1.32 with same problem.
Randomly my phone will:
-go into driving mode
-answer calls in speaker phone mode
-start alarm clock
-think its charging when the cable is not plugged in
-Reboot it self/turn it self on when its off
-wont connect to computer or charge even when cable is plugged in.
I need to send it in for repairs what should i flash? there is no bell branded firmwares or roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly the same to me
How do you flash congnition? just over the stock rom with odin?
did you flash modem?
Absolutely same here, since coming from CM7 to VillainRom.
Never had that before.
I´m waiting and watching it and your results!
Thanks for this thread.
That's why I don't root the phone..it works fine.
---
- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
pachi72 said:
That's why I don't root the phone..it works fine.
---
- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has nothing to do with root access.
I cannot believe that any problem related just because you have access to your system.
Back to topic, flashed back to cm but problem persists.
It's getting really bad near to flashing stock and bring it back to change device if someone knows what it is could be helpful.
I also have this problem. I think it has something to do with the usb port.
Because sometimes it just scans for media, or it thinks it is charging. Really weird! Then i just put in the charger and it stops for a while. Turning off will just reboot the device. And removing battery and plugging it back it also just reboots the phone.
I hope it is not hardware related...
I was looking for help for a problem I have but this seems to cover most of the problems I'm having.
Mine has recently started going into a strange mode after shutting it down. I get the battery charging symbol alternating with the "battery overheating" symbol.
The only way to stop it is to remove the battery for at least a couple of hours (if you put it straight back in it automaticly starts up and goes back to flashing the battery warnings) or pressing Power, Vol+ and Home and choosing Reboot.
I have also noticed its very slow to respond to plugging the charger in or out. It doesn't always wake-up and bleep when the charger is put in and it stays showing its charging for some time after the charger has been removed.
I was told that the charger should be removed as soon as charging is compleated but surely overnight is the only time we have available to charge these phones!
Depending on the custom rom or kernel you are using, it might not support off mode charging.
To avoid having a "problem" with charging the phone in off mode, some developers decided to make the phone boot up when the phone is been charged when the phone is off.
Going back to an official stock ROM fixes this problem.
cyanogen mod 7 said:
cm_galaxys2_full-23.zip (2011-08-15 08:48:18)
Enable power off charging (LPM) (android_device_samsung_galaxys2)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for Cyanogen, since built 23, you can charge the phone when it is in the "off" state. Please wipe out your userdata partition before flashing. Do not restore from a previous backup.
I fixed my reboot problem (rebooting instead of turning off) by letting the battery drain all the way so it couldn't boot anymore. Tried turning it on to see if it really doesn't go on anymore. After that I plugged in the charger and I got the charging-symbol and it did not turn on so I kept it charging overnight while turned off and in the morning it was finished and turned it on.
I also cleaned the usb-port on the phone with a toothpick. It had alot of dust stuck in it which I couldn't see. After that no more problems...for now. They haven't returned for 2 days now.
WoollyBully said:
I was looking for help for a problem I have but this seems to cover most of the problems I'm having.
Mine has recently started going into a strange mode after shutting it down. I get the battery charging symbol alternating with the "battery overheating" symbol.
The only way to stop it is to remove the battery for at least a couple of hours (if you put it straight back in it automaticly starts up and goes back to flashing the battery warnings) or pressing Power, Vol+ and Home and choosing Reboot.
I have also noticed its very slow to respond to plugging the charger in or out. It doesn't always wake-up and bleep when the charger is put in and it stays showing its charging for some time after the charger has been removed.
I was told that the charger should be removed as soon as charging is compleated but surely overnight is the only time we have available to charge these phones!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What kernel and rom are you using? I have not seen the battery overheating symbol on the sgs2.
No, there is no need to remove the phone from charger, when the phone gets to what is considered full, the battery will stop charging by itself.
Are you using the original samsung charger that came with the phone, or are you using a after market charger? Most of these USB chargers do not send a signal on the data lines. When using these chargers, the phone becomes laggy and unresponsive, there is also a delay to register anything on the touch screen. Stay away from these chargers.
For lithium batteries just charge it whenever you feel like it. Lithium batteries have a few thousand deep charge cycles, meaning if you use up all the power, then charge it,you use 1 deep charge cycle. However, if you use the micro cycles for charging, you can charge the batteries a few million times. Leaving the battery on empty for too long will damage the lithium battery.
Can any one confirm if this is a hardware or software issue as i now have the problem when i try and switch the phone off it will just reboot?
The Same issue occurs in my sgs2
hi everybody,
i just got my sgs2 ten days ago
everything seems good at first
then i realized screen standby lock lag problem, there exist a lag between 1 second to 2.5 seconds.
i ignore that due to it cannot be named as a problem, it seems like a bad characteristic
then yesterday , i have faced with another problem
after i have docked the phone to the original vehicle dock kit,
phone cannot be closed via power button , i hold it 1.5 seconds then chose turn off among list, phone looks like to be turned off then after a little while it just vibrates and reboots. That is phone cannot be turned off, it s somehow turn itself on again.
Whats the reason of this problem ?
In another forum one faced with the same problem said that it turned out to be normal when the battery is erased but the problem is occured again after docking.
micro usb connector
I droped my phone in the water, got it alive again, but with all the error(overheat battery symbol, no stable usb connection, reboot when i power off, 100% charged not going away) replaced the micro usb connector with a new one.
Some problems are gone but i still can't connect to pc (kies, debug etc), poweroff problem still happen sometime.
Conclusion: It is not only the usb part of the phone that are causing this problem.
But I do belive its a hardware problem.
Have you phone maybe got to much to drink too..
usb port???
I've recently been experiencing the same problem
When I turned off my phone it switched on again!
And removing battery and plugging it back it also just reboots the phone.
Sometimes the USB connector and charger are confused
Do solved the problem by changing the USB port?
plz help me
Thank you in advance for helping me
This is definately a hardware issue. Clean the usb connector, failing that it will need replacing
On Behalf of SamsungCarla:
"Hello,
Samsung takes all product related issues seriously. We invite the customer to contact us so that they can examine the phone to determine the cause of this incident. If you send us your name, phone number, phone IMEI, where the product was purchased, and email address to [email protected], we will contact you to see how we can help.
Sincerely,
SamsungCarla
Samsung Support"
My HTC One will only charge when the phone is off, not sure at all why this is. It was unlocked and has the stock rom on it, but it fails to recognize the device completely, when it is turned on and plugged into the wall or a usb port on my computer.
The phone however, will be recognized via fastboot and will charge either through AC or USB. I successfully was able to fastboot and push cm 10.2 on it. Still remains the same problem as before.
I cleaned the port out of the bottom to free it of dust and debris but no luck.
The phone itself will have a solid red charging light for 6 seconds, then it turns into a dim red light for 8 seconds, the led then turns off for 5 seconds and then the cycle repeats. The phone can only charge to 99% and never will show a green light for it fully charged, even after 2 days on the charge.
What the heck is the problem? I have read too many issues in regards to this and HTC has no acknowledged this one bit.
Do I have to replace the USB charging port? I ask that since my bootloader is unlocked.
Seems that on a clean restart and on airplane mode, the phone can't even hold a day charge from 25%..
My device started doing the same out of the blue. All was working fine untill about an hour ago. Now my device will not charge while the device is on. And no usb cable is being detected.
SOLUTION>>>?????
xartic12 said:
My HTC One will only charge when the phone is off, not sure at all why this is. It was unlocked and has the stock rom on it, but it fails to recognize the device completely, when it is turned on and plugged into the wall or a usb port on my computer.
The phone however, will be recognized via fastboot and will charge either through AC or USB. I successfully was able to fastboot and push cm 10.2 on it. Still remains the same problem as before.
I cleaned the port out of the bottom to free it of dust and debris but no luck.
The phone itself will have a solid red charging light for 6 seconds, then it turns into a dim red light for 8 seconds, the led then turns off for 5 seconds and then the cycle repeats. The phone can only charge to 99% and never will show a green light for it fully charged, even after 2 days on the charge.
What the heck is the problem? I have read too many issues in regards to this and HTC has no acknowledged this one bit.
Do I have to replace the USB charging port? I ask that since my bootloader is unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you found a solution to the problem??? My phone recently started doing this
racosta201045 said:
Have you found a solution to the problem??? My phone recently started doing this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I ended up selling it and going back with my LG OG pro. Warranty it, you will not find a solution as I wasted hours upon end looking for one.
Same problem here
I'm having the same problem since two days ago. Anybody can help?
Thanks.
Hello,
I have a really weird problem with my phone for several months now. I use Zenfone 5, and my warranty is probably void already, but I could not use it anyhow (it is in a different country). I tried contacting the official support, but they just said to send it in for a check up, which I could not at the time, and cannot now either.
The problem started when I plugged in my phone in my car using third party car charger. It worked with other phones with no problems, and the output should be OK. When I plugged it in, the light on the charger went off, and the phone turned itself off without any notification. I tried to power the phone on with no success. It just vibrated, and remained off. Later I disassembled the charger and found out that the safety fuse has melted.
I went to my house and plugged the phone in, and it turned on. But the problem was, and remained to this day, that the phone thinks it is charging even when it is not plugged in. The phone charges normally, and battery life is ok, the phone normally goes into deep sleep mode.
The phone won't power up without charger, and the USB OTG obviously doesn't work. But there are some curious things about this problem.
When I took my phone apart and disconnected the battery for 30 minutes (it is non-removable), after I connected it back, the phone turned itself on (without the charger), until I tried to charge it, then it went back to only powering on while on charger. The constant charging thing, nevertheless, remained all the time.
Sometimes when I plug in the cheap USB OTG converter, the phone stops charging notification. When I unplug it, it goes back to charging.
I have no clue what could be the problem, and which part (the usb board or the battery) could be faulty.
I also tried hard reset a few times, with no success.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Bump? Anyone? Any clue?
Is there any way to change kernel so it doesn't register charging if there is no current flowing to the phone?
And which type of battery connector is this?
http://www.myfixguide.com/manual/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Asus-ZenFone-5-Disassembly-7.jpg
BUMP
Hi folks
Have an issue i think its straightforward battery replacement and ordered one off amazon already but will take time to get to me
Just wondering if anyone has same issue or can clarify /verify my suspicion
Today my wife's lg g5 was on 7% in a 4 minute window it shutdown itself since then when plugged in with several chargers and cords the phone does not charge no led indicator light either
As such wont turn on
Ive pulled battery and put back in, usb port is clean and screen doesnt turn on for anything
Im thinking the battery is just... Dead
Any comments /suggestions?
Thanx in advance
I had a similar problem. When the phone turned off itself after discharge the battery, I can't turn it on. Even after plugged charger some minutes does not LED indicator light. And after several minutes with charger, phone is ON. My old battery is bad, with my new battery all the same.
I used the oem charger and left ir for several hours. Phone got hot but no luck. Awaiting new battery arrival.
Ok so update phone is a brick nothing works phone is 18months old... Lg messed up on this one
stargatesgx said:
I used the oem charger and left ir for several hours. Phone got hot but no luck. Awaiting new battery arrival.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I’m having the same issue, I’ve tried a new battery and all that happens is that the phone gets warm and the phone is complete dead. I don’t know what’s wrong with it.
I have two dead ones too here. one died in februar, the other yesterday.
No Solution found yet. Led is not working, phone gets warm while charging.
I really want to access the data on the Mainboard, i hope that someone will find a solution.
On youtube comments i have read from several others who experienced the same..
Same problem here
My phone had an argument with the toilet.
I dried it out and it booted up just fine.
Then left it charging. It got hot then froze. I striped it all down and dried it out again, but it now appears dead.
My wife has a G5 so I'm able to fully charge batteries in hers and try them in my phone, but to no avail.
If I put the battery in and press the power button, it vibrates, but no sound, no screen, not USB recognised.
I've tried everything to recover it including but not limited to:
stock charger
multiple different USB cables
plug in to PC
plug into PC while pressing volume up/down and various other combinations
4 different bottom modules (2 standard, 2 cam plus)
stripped it down completely and cleaned all the connectors with isoproply alcohol
Seems to be dead as a dodo.
I have pictures and videos of my son on there that I'd love to recover.
Has anybody successfully recovered data off of the internall MMC from a dead motherboard?
Thanks!
wappsam said:
Same problem here
My phone had an argument with the toilet.
I dried it out and it booted up just fine.
Then left it charging. It got hot then froze. I striped it all down and dried it out again, but it now appears dead.
My wife has a G5 so I'm able to fully charge batteries in hers and try them in my phone, but to no avail.
If I put the battery in and press the power button, it vibrates, but no sound, no screen, not USB recognised.
I've tried everything to recover it including but not limited to:
stock charger
multiple different USB cables
plug in to PC
plug into PC while pressing volume up/down and various other combinations
4 different bottom modules (2 standard, 2 cam plus)
stripped it down completely and cleaned all the connectors with isoproply alcohol
Seems to be dead as a dodo.
I have pictures and videos of my son on there that I'd love to recover.
Has anybody successfully recovered data off of the internall MMC from a dead motherboard?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can get data from your Google backup. If you had backups turned on go out to Google from a laptop and download the last backup before it died. It should have all your pics etc
Hi!
Last night my phone started acting up when I connected the USB cable to charge it (connected to PC).. it kept saying the phone is charging slowly so I had to take the cable out and reinsert it multiple times to get it to charge properly.. today when I was charging using my powerbank the screen turned off and when I tried to use the phone it was unresponsive so I restarted using vol - and power. Now when I restart the phone it turns off and only boots if I press vol - and power for 10 secs.. also when I turn it off I cannot turn it back on by pressing only the power button and I have to press vol - and power together to boot.
In the Developer Mode Options.. USB Configuration screen is completely blank.. All I see it "Only Once" and "Always" options with nothing above them.
I cleared cache and that seemed to fix it for several hours (maybe a fluke) but now even that is not working. I upgraded to Pie using LGUP a month ago and did not experience any problems since this. Now the phone is not detecting ANY connections in the USB port (PC connection or wall-charger) meaning I cannot charge it. I do not have a wireless charger on hand to test wireless charging. I tried soft resetting it using the Factory Reset option inside the OS. Made no difference. Cleaned the lint out of the port using a thin plastic straw.. still the same.
Has anyone else ever experienced this? Is the charging port bad? or will somehow charging it using wireless charger (if that works) and then going back to Oreo fix it? Can hard reset work? I had less than 30% charge remaining so I turned the phone off.. will turn it back on in the morning to see if that made any difference.
Help.. :crying:
Update: Hard reset did not fix it.
Update2: Phone charges for a while when I reboot it by pressing the vol - and power from within the OS.. charging normally now and also letting me choose USB configuration mode... will see in the morning if its charged and responsive..
theenlightened1 said:
Hi!
Last night my phone started acting up when I connected the USB cable to charge it (connected to PC).. it kept saying the phone is charging slowly so I had to take the cable out and reinsert it multiple times to get it to charge properly.. today when I was charging using my powerbank the screen turned off and when I tried to use the phone it was unresponsive so I restarted using vol - and power. Now when I restart the phone it turns off and only boots if I press vol - and power for 10 secs.. also when I turn it off I cannot turn it back on by pressing only the power button and I have to press vol - and power together to boot.
In the Developer Mode Options.. USB Configuration screen is completely blank.. All I see it "Only Once" and "Always" options with nothing above them.
I cleared cache and that seemed to fix it for several hours (maybe a fluke) but now even that is not working. I upgraded to Pie using LGUP a month ago and did not experience any problems since this. Now the phone is not detecting ANY connections in the USB port (PC connection or wall-charger) meaning I cannot charge it. I do not have a wireless charger on hand to test wireless charging. I tried soft resetting it using the Factory Reset option inside the OS. Made no difference. Cleaned the lint out of the port using a thin plastic straw.. still the same.
Has anyone else ever experienced this? Is the charging port bad? or will somehow charging it using wireless charger (if that works) and then going back to Oreo fix it? Can hard reset work? I had less than 30% charge remaining so I turned the phone off.. will turn it back on in the morning to see if that made any difference.
Help.. :crying:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, Qi wireless charging can charge if USB port is messed up.
Yes, hard Reset can fix stuff also.
Rather than PC and powerbanks, I would stay with regular plug wall charger, preferably with QuickCharge 3.0.
ChazzMatt said:
Yes, Qi wireless charging can charge if USB port is messed up.
Yes, hard Reset can fix stuff also.
Rather than PC and powerbanks, I would stay with regular plug wall charger, preferably with QuickCharge 3.0.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think its a HW issue.. seems to be a Pie issue.. I had the AME Oreo on this phone and LG did not release the Pie for the region so I installed the HK Pie on this.. maybe that is the problem and I need to refurb the SW using LGUP again or downgrade to Oreo
ChazzMatt said:
Yes, Qi wireless charging can charge if USB port is messed up.
Yes, hard Reset can fix stuff also.
Rather than PC and powerbanks, I would stay with regular plug wall charger, preferably with QuickCharge 3.0.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm in a job where I am mobile most of the time and do not have access to wall chargers.. Have my laptop and powerbank with me at all times though.. Thanks for your help.. :good:
I agree on it being a Pie issue. My V30 is having ISB Configuration problems too - can ONLY detect it to charge, 0 other communication with 3 computers using 4 different cables.
The vol down + power trick doesn't make mine work at all either. Currently I am stuck with a fairly useless Verizon phone because I can't use the damn USB connection on it.
k2pdx said:
I agree on it being a Pie issue. My V30 is having ISB Configuration problems too - can ONLY detect it to charge, 0 other communication with 3 computers using 4 different cables.
The vol down + power trick doesn't make mine work at all either. Currently I am stuck with a fairly useless Verizon phone because I can't use the damn USB connection on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm still on rooted stock Oreo firmware because I don't see anything better about LG's Pie. The last Oreo is the most stable.
ChazzMatt said:
I'm still on rooted stock Oreo firmware because I don't see anything better about LG's Pie. The last Oreo is the most stable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't be on Pie if the phone wasn't already on it when given to me. Seems like it broke USB Configuration on a lot of phone models, but the V30 still hasn't been issued a fix and nobody can explain why not all V30 were affected. Verizon basically told me to go **** myself because I am not a Verizon customer, lol
Fixed it once by reflashing the software using LGUP and now its back again... backing up now to reflash... this is a pain in the backside.. took just 3 months for the USB to start acting up again.. I got the moisture or debris in USB port message this morning.. so cleaned out the USB port and now acting up just like in my OP...