Multiple keyboards = can't change without reboot? - Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo ROM Development

I'm still having the problem where if I try to change to a 3rd party sip, the default keyboard comes up instead.
Reading around the web implies that it might be a problem wince wm2003, and only if you have more then 1 3rd party sip installed.
I currently use SIPChange to change my default keyboard - but that requires a reboot every time I want to change keyboard.
Is this behavior just me, or everyone? Any known fixes? I have found many people with this problem on different ppc's, but no known fix.
(Just to clarify - I use SIPChange to change my default to Phraze-It. Reboot. Phraze-It works perfectly. I try to change to Fitaly using either the arrow next to the sip, or through the system/personal/input - and the default keyboard comes up. Also, the arrow change takes about 10-15 seconds to give me a list).
Heeeelp.
For extra points, any known way to have 2 defaults - 1 for portrait & 1 for landscape ?

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A problem with WM2003? Why have you installed that on your Athena?

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I have the same problem.
I have Tengo, CE Star, Penpower, and Happy Tapping Keyboard installed. I am able to switch to Tengo, CE Star, and Penpower anytime without reboot anytime. However, in order to switch to happy tapping keyboard I need to use sipchange to choose it followed by a reset in order to get it working. Without the reset, I only have the default keyboard which is hard to use in 128 and 96 dpi.
I 'm also hoping to find a solution to this problem.

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Confucious said:
A problem with WM2003? Why have you installed that on your Athena?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if I wasn't clear - from my research, it has been a problem since the WM2003 Version of the PPC Mobile software.
Had this problem on my i730, but though it was a specific keyboard with the problem at the time. Tested my i730 - exact same symptoms as I'm having now. Looks like an OS problem as far as I can tell.

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eaglesteve said:
I have the same problem.
I have Tengo, CE Star, Penpower, and Happy Tapping Keyboard installed. I am able to switch to Tengo, CE Star, and Penpower anytime without reboot anytime. However, in order to switch to happy tapping keyboard I need to use sipchange to choose it followed by a reset in order to get it working. Without the reset, I only have the default keyboard which is hard to use in 128 and 96 dpi.
I 'm also hoping to find a solution to this problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You had me all exited that there were new keyboard I didn't know about (for anyone reading this thread, the keyboards he mentions are for entering Chinese (kenji?).
At least you can do some of them - I want to switch between Phraze-It (excellent landscape mode), Touchpal (looooving it, but takes up a lot of landscape space), Phone Pad (the T9 thing I just found out about yesterday).
Turning into a MAJOR problem, cause I'm not carrying the keyboard regularly.

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polstein said:
You had me all exited that there were new keyboard I didn't know about (for anyone reading this thread, the keyboards he mentions are for entering Chinese (kenji?).
At least you can do some of them - I want to switch between Phraze-It (excellent landscape mode), Touchpal (looooving it, but takes up a lot of landscape space), Phone Pad (the T9 thing I just found out about yesterday).
Turning into a MAJOR problem, cause I'm not carrying the keyboard regularly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry to have got you all excited
Your comment about some keyboard taking too much space is echoed by me. It seems like a contradiction that we want to have big tapping area but not taking over too much real estate. That'a why i'm so happy with Tengo (more specifically Tengo Nano). It takes less real estate than the standard keyboard, yet the hitting area (key size)is bigger than any other on the market other than Tengo 2.1, Tengo Thumb,and free Tengo.
The other thing I like about Tengo is that my thumb or stylus need not travel all over the place,which is not very relaxing.
If you can't get yours working at all, why not give Tengo a try?
The only problem of Tengo is it does not work with any software that tries to find out what you want as you type. It does not work with my Wine Guide, my lexisgoo dictionary, and Tomeraiders 3. That's why I supplement it with happy tapping.
I have no connection with Tengo in any way whatsoever. Just a very happy customer.

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Tengo Nano is new to me (opening a new web page as I type). I liked the Tengo approach, but geeze, leave some space for something other then the keyboard!
I'm would prefer a keyboard without using a stylus (or I'd be using Fitaly - or shapewriter if they ever release the dang thing!!) - I'd much rather use thumbs.
I tried Tengo thumb, but in portrait it's unusable cause there is so little screen left. Also, I never found out how to 'scratch' a single letter in Tengo Thumb for entering passwords and the like.
That's why (at the moment) Phraze-it is my choice. It fits well in both Portrait & Landscape, and retains big buttons. The downside is that it takes 2 clicks to enter most letters.
ASAIK, I've tried alllllmost every keyboard made for PPCs. (then i hear about this nano thing)
I like the Touchpal a lot, especially once he gets a few kinks worked out - but it also suffers from the too-much landscape problem. If I could, I would have Touchpal permanently set to portrait mode. I also just found out about Phone Pad (the T9 rip), but can't make it stop playing a beep sound for every new word!
So for now, being limited to one choice, the best I can do it Phraze-It. Will check this nano thing now.
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And in any case, still having the can't switch problem

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I don't see a Tengo Nano - or is that the correct name for the keyboard that is not Tengo Thumb (or Tengo Free). Version 2.10
(assuming that is the case), do you use the stylus, or your fingers?
If thumbs, how do you do the scribing (one letter thing) with your thumbs?
Oh, and how about real estate used in landscape?
Mebbe I'll try a demo - I might have already tried, but I think it was Tengo Thumb I demoed before.

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Actually, Tengo Nano is one of the three keyboard options within Tengo 2.1. It is very similar to Tengo. The main difference being the availability of number keys without having to press any toggle key first.
You said that you do not use stylus. I find that interesting. Do you not use realVGA 128dpi or 96dpi? Even with 192dpi, can you really do without stylus? I personally find it rather challenging to fully operate without stylus. Using the XDA forum,for example, I often press to go to the last post of a thread. At 128dpi, it is very difficult to click with my finger. The keyboard is not the only thing to tap. There is always a need to tap on some part of the screen other than the keyboard. There are usually some places too small to be tapped with fingers. At 96of course it is even worse. So, for me, stylus is in most cases necessary. The question is, if i'm already holding the stylus, isn't it much easier to tap with it rather than having to put it away, then type with the finger, then pick up the stylus again.........? It is for this reason that I have reverted back to stylus typing rather than finger typing.
I'm also the type who wants to explore all kinds of keyboard. I'm going to try out what you are using too.

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Found the Tengo Nano - I have Tengo installed as a demo. Works pretty good for keys, and looks good in landscape - the 'scribing' a letter with a thumb isn't doable.
(and tengo thumb is huuuuuuge)
I have RealVGA installed, but I hit a lot of compatibility problems with a few programs. In fairness, a number of programs have specific checkboxes to take advantage of RealVGA also (like Pocketbreeze, and iLauncher <off top of my head so I may be wrong>) - but in a day of demoing I hit a lot of weird behavior from different programs.
I'd be interested in how well RealVGA works for you. If it helps, my today screen is currently a combination of WA3, WAD, iLauncher, and Pocketbreeze using a Vista theme, with 4 Virtual Pages Been tweaking it for a week now.
I have thumbprints all over my screen (yes, I have a screen protector on it). I try to use it without the stylus as much as possible. I also use a slip/poch case, and usually don't carry the keyboard. So, when I work, I'm holding the main unit by itself with no case.
I am also using a car mount, and pulling out a stylus to hit a button on the screen isn't so workable.
I got a 3-in-1 stylus replacement, but it's no improvement over the default. I **REALLY** wish there was an extendable stylus, cause the one that comes with the HTC is just too dang short. The tip digs into my index finger around the 3rd nuckle (counting from the tip). I actually got a couple pen / pencil / sylus combos to keep around to use them instead.
BTW, if I could shift resolutions without rebooting, I'd probably use it all the time - like web browsing... and mebbe then the sip screen real estate wouldn't be such a problem.
I wish I remembered exactly the problems I encountered using 128dpi. Mebbe I'll back my unit up, and change resolutions and see what breaks!
I attached my today screen (yes, we're off topic here). iLauncher icons at the bottom are 64. PocketBreeze is juuuust big enough to fit everything in.
The row under the start bar has icon sizes at 32. Icons on that bar are left to right - 1st Virtual Page (the current one) - 2nd Virtual Page featuring Weatherpanel - 3rd Virtual Page with Meters - 4th Virtual Page where I'm messing around with Docks. Then rotate, restart, and power off. Yes, those last 3 are duplicated below, but some of my virtual pages don't have iLauncher on it, so I'm doubling up on those buttons now - it's easier for me to hit the screen then brace the unit to hit the hard power on the side.
I don't have any problems using a finger to hit any of the icons - even the 32 pixel ones. The 64 ones are real easy, or course.
I think I spend more time tweaking this desktop then using the device for anything else so far
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"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
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Glad you found Tengo Nano. Yes,even in landscape mode it would not invade too much of the screen. I used to finger type with Nano, and then come to scribing the key, I solved the problem by keeping longer finger nail for my right index finger.
Yes, Tengo Thumb is fantastic for Thumb typing but I don't like it for invading too much screen space, leaving too little visibility, hence largely defeating the purpose of realvga, which is to see more. It is almost as big as the gigantic Finger Touch.
I don't have any issue with 128dpi. I just can't handle 96dpi with my less than perfect eye sight. Also,I find it at times hard to click on the tiny tiny spots on 96dpi screen, even with stylus. It's easy with 128.
The only programs I use in the car is iGO my way. I never need stylus to start it or operate it. It has it's own keyboard,which is hugh enough to be operated with fingers. I map the application to one of the hardware buttons to start it. Alternatively,I could also use finger on my today screen to start all my applications. I could fit all them on the desktop and start them without changing desktop pages. I use icon size 43 for 128dpi. I also use one of the hardware buttons to start the dpi switcher. One more hardware button is for rotating screen, and another is for starting sipchange program, since I can't find any other use for this otherwise unused button.
To sum up, my set up works extremely well for me. I get to see a lot and Tengo does not take over too much real estate,yet providing hugh tapping area for the keys. It also does not require my stylus to travel all over the screen during typing. Most of the time by stylus stays within a 1 square inch area hitting 6 groups of keys, so it is very relaxing and quick. It is very intelligent. However, an intelligent keyboard is not good with intelligent programs such as Lexisgoo as both are trying to guess what I want!
Having said that, I also have to clarify that I can use scrible Tengo keys and still use lexisgoo. It would work. It's just that I prefer to touch the key.
That's why I still like an option (I can also do without it) of a 'dumb' keyboard for 'intelligent' programs. Hence Happy Tapping as it looks cool and not too hugh.
Which should bring us back to topic again. How can we overcome the selection problem with multiple SIP, without having to reboot?

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eaglesteve said:
Glad you found Tengo Nano. Yes,even in landscape mode it would not invade too much of the screen. I used to finger type with Nano, and then come to scribing the key, I solved the problem by keeping longer finger nail for my right index finger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny, but I'd never be able to keep one long. I actually bought a pack of Truetips (fingertip stylus), but that's 1 more thing to carry around.. might as well use a good pen/stylus - still looking for a good light one.
eaglesteve said:
I don't have any issue with 128dpi. I just can't handle 96dpi with my less than perfect eye sight. Also,I find it at times hard to click on the tiny tiny spots on 96dpi screen, even with stylus. It's easy with 128.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried changing my dpi again. Only programs with fits were pre WM5 ones - including Photo Contacts Pro (gotta see if I'm on a old version). But I didn't really get much advantage out of it. Many program I ran looked the same, but for a smaller Start Menu.
eaglesteve said:
To sum up, my set up works extremely well for me. I get to see a lot and Tengo does not take over too much real estate,yet providing hugh tapping area for the keys. It also does not require my stylus to travel all over the screen during typing. Most of the time by stylus stays within a 1 square inch area hitting 6 groups of keys, so it is very relaxing and quick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did notice that when testing it, you can really keep the stylus within a very small area, a defanite plus cause most wrist pain is from lifting and lowering the stylus over & over again. I would defanitly consider it if I made Stylus-typing my primary writing method... but I would prefer 2 thumbs.
eaglesteve said:
Which should bring us back to topic again. How can we overcome the selection problem with multiple SIP, without having to reboot?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've posted on a few forums, but no luck at all with responses. Either we're the few with the problem, or most people settle for just 1 keyboard.

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It's actually not the question of having multiple keyboard but the kind of keyboard which caused the selection problem.
I just tried out Phraze-it, and I could not select it unless I reboot after sipchange. Same for keyboards such as happy tapping and finger touch.
However,I have no problem loading Tengo Thumb AND Tengo 2.1 (which includes Tengo nano), AND CE star AND Penpower all at the same time and freely switch from anyone to another without having to reboot.
Tengo used to have similar problems, but that has apparently been resolved with the current version.
BTW when I tried out Phrase-it I noticed that every letter I typed required 2 taps. Is this normal way of using this keyboard or I'm not doing it right? How fast can you type after getting used to it?
For your interest I've also measured the size of keys and also size of keyboard for the following:
Finger touch layout 1
Size of key in portrait : 7.5mm x7.5mm =56.25 sq mm
Size of key in landscape : 7.5x10mm=75 sq mm
Height: 37.5mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=yes
Happy tapping
31mm height
Landscape mode
10mmx8mm=80mm2
Portrait mode
7.5mmx8mm=60mm2
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=no
Tengo nano
key size 18x6 .=108 sq mm
Height 24mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=yes
Tengo 2.1
key size 25x6 =150 sq mm
Height 30mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=no
Tengo Thumb
key size 26x14=364 sq mm
Height 53 mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=yes
Phraze-it
170.4 sq mm key size
Height = 44mm for 3 rows layout, and 46 mm for 2 rows layout. The other layout are too tall for considerations.
Access to all ABC keys=No
Direct access to numbers=No
TouchPal
154 sq mm key size
Height = 44mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=No
Standard keyboard (small key)
Height 25 mm
5.6 x5mm=28mm2
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=yes
Standard keyboard (large key)
Height=25mm
Key size = 39 sq mm
Access to all ABC keys=yes
Direct access to numbers=No
If you do not mind the height of the keyboard, Tengo Thumb is actually the easiest keyboard available for fast thumb typing. With it, you need not scribe as there is a switch to turn off predictive text, so you could type letter by letter for password etc,similar to Phraze-it. You are also able to press all numbers directly without first toggling to it. Look at the size of its key! It's good for even extremely large fingers. You need not press twice to get each letter like Phraze-it.
If you use this for your thumb typing, your SIP selection problem would be history.
edit: I need correct my earlier statement. It IS the number of SIP rather than the identity that causes selection problem. I am able to freely select about 5 of them. ANY 5 of them it seems, after just one initial reboot. Tip: take out the battery just before reboot helps to bring in more selectable SIP. Now I have CeStar, Penpower, Happy Tapping (with iPhone skin), Tengo, Finger Touch all selectable without needing reboot. TouchPal, Phraze-it and Tengo Thumb could not be selected unless I reboot. Of course, all standard ones such as phone pad are all okay.

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polstein said:
do you use the stylus, or your fingers?
If thumbs, how do you do the scribing (one letter thing) with your thumbs?
Oh, and how about real estate used in landscape?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay I didn't answer this properly yet . I am able to type with both with tengo 2.1. thumb typing is easier using tengo 2.1 than nano. I also am able to scribe with my finger without any problem, provided I set the scribing sensitivity to either standard or high.
Tengo 2.1 might be most suitable for you, rather than thumb or nano since real estate is important (it is only 2mm taller than the standard keyboard) and you want to use fingers.
I'm able to type VERY fast with my finger if I use tengo 2.1, but slightly slower with nano. The nano keys are slightly smaller, as you can see from the previous post.
This post is typed with my finger using both version of Tengo. No problem whatsoever. The problem is I have to put away the stylus in order to type with finger. Without stylus, I can't easily touch the tiny spots on the web pages., for example to jump to a specific page of a thread.

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eaglesteve said:
It's actually not the question of having multiple keyboard but the kind of keyboard which caused the selection problem.
I just tried out Phraze-it, and I could not select it unless I reboot after sipchange. Same for keyboards such as happy tapping and finger touch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, thank you *very* much for installing the SIP - I have not been able to get this kind of confirmation for weeks - I still didn't know if this was my pcc, the keyboard, or an O/S problem. If it is in fact the developer, I will be emailing them shortly...
eaglesteve said:
BTW when I tried out Phrase-it I noticed that every letter I typed required 2 taps. Is this normal way of using this keyboard or I'm not doing it right? How fast can you type after getting used to it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not very fast, but I've only been using it for a couple of weeks. But the demo I saw (youtube) was pretty slow too. This keyboard is not designed for speed, but rather for a small amount of big buttons (and minimal screen space). When I need to do a lot of typing, I'm using a different keyboard, but for small quick entry like a web page or small sms it works very well. This is also why I need to figure out this switching problem - so I don't have to reboot when it comes time to type something longer!
eaglesteve said:
If you do not mind the height of the keyboard, Tengo Thumb is actually the easiest keyboard available for fast thumb typing. With it, you need not scribe as there is a switch to turn off predictive text, so you could type letter by letter for password etc,similar to Phraze-it. You are also able to press all numbers directly without first toggling to it. Look at the size of its key! It's good for even extremely large fingers. You need not press twice to get each letter like Phraze-it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed that Tengo Thumb was very good for thumb typing, but the screen size is among the worst height on your list. How did you measure those figures? I'll measure Phraze-It to add to this list (and anything else I have). How big is the screen itself?
I didn't see the option to turn off the predictive text, when one does that I assume you can use it as a regular keyboard?
BTW, I think I had the same switching problem with Tengo Thumb - but I believe my demo is up on it. Also, I assume Tengo & Tengo Thumb are two seperate purchases?
eaglesteve said:
If you use this for your thumb typing, your SIP selection problem would be history.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have Tengo Thumb installed? Are you able to switch between Tengo and Tengo Thumb (and the standard keyboard) with no problems?
Having 1 company with your "stylus" keyboard and your "thumb" keyboard is a big plus, especially hen they should have similar look/feels.
Given practice on both, I wonder which is faster. Ideally, Tengo Thumb coild be for quick entry, and Tengo w/stylus for longer typing.
In Tengo Thumb, how did u turn the predictive text off - is it easy to turn off & on for entering things like passwords?
I don't suppose Tengo supports macros (so I could do something like "hm" and get my Home Email address?

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eaglesteve said:
Okay I didn't answer this properly yet . I am able to type with both with tengo 2.1. thumb typing is easier using tengo 2.1 than nano. I also am able to scribe with my finger without any problem, provided I set the scribing sensitivity to either standard or high.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried Tengo (the normal one) very briefly yesterday. I am now setting it as default - I'll try to use it as my keyboard over the next few days. My brief experience showed that thumb typing on it was hard, and scribing impossible for me. Just to be sure, 2.1 = normal Tengo, default keyboard?
eaglesteve said:
I'm able to type VERY fast with my finger if I use tengo 2.1, but slightly slower with nano. The nano keys are slightly smaller, as you can see from the previous post.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And just to make sure I understand this, Tengo Nano is smaller keys, which means less stylus movement, and you have the numbers on the main screen?
eaglesteve said:
This post is typed with my finger using both version of Tengo. No problem whatsoever. The problem is I have to put away the stylus in order to type with finger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is an advantage for me
eaglesteve said:
Without stylus, I can't easily touch the tiny spots on the web pages., for example to jump to a specific page of a thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[/QUOTE]
I use the Directional pad to hop to links, to avoid the problem.
My kingdom for an extendable stylus that fits this thing!
Thanks again for all your help - Tengo should send you commissions. I'll let you know how it goes!

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polstein said:
How did you measure those figures? I'll measure Phraze-It to add to this list (and anything else I have). How big is the screen itself?
I didn't see the option to turn off the predictive text, when one does that I assume you can use it as a regular keyboard?
Also, I assume Tengo & Tengo Thumb are two seperate purchases?
Do you have Tengo Thumb installed? Are you able to switch between Tengo and Tengo Thumb (and the standard keyboard) with no problems?
Given practice on both, I wonder which is faster. Ideally, Tengo Thumb coild be for quick entry, and Tengo w/stylus for longer typing.
In Tengo Thumb, how did u turn the predictive text off - is it easy to turn off & on for entering things like passwords?
I don't suppose Tengo supports macros (so I could do something like "hm" and get my Home Email address?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used a ruler to measure it.
The screen itself is 76mm x 100.5mm
The tutorial shows how predictive text can be turned off.
They are differen purchases. Tengo Thumb is good for word processing and email or sms, but not suitable for excel and web surfing because it invades too much of the screen real estate. If you use fingers instead of stylus, Thumb is faster. If you use stylus, Thumb is slower because the distance travelled by the stylus is unnecessarily longer.
Both are good for quick entries. Both are good for long long fast typing. Yes, I would type a book with both instead of PC keyboard.
To type password, you have more ways than turning predictive text off. You can scribe, which you already know. You can also tap exactly on the correct key, but just ignore the warning feedback, then when finished, choose it from the top right.
It does not have macro. But with such typing speed,who needs it? To get idea of what sort of speed I'm talking about, go to the Tengo website to see how fast the 'Tengo girls' are typing. I don't type that fast, but not very far behind.
Cheers.

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polstein said:
Just to be sure, 2.1 = normal Tengo, default keyboard?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
polstein said:
And just to make sure I understand this, Tengo Nano is smaller keys, which means less stylus movement, and you have the numbers on the main screen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you can use it without the need to toggle it on first.
polstein said:
I use the Directional pad to hop to links, to avoid the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will work. Not very efficient though.
polstein said:
Thanks again for all your help - Tengo should send you commissions. I'll let you know how it goes!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's my pleasure.
Ha ha. I wish they just give me free update for life.

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I just updated the keyboard height and keysize for happy tapping. Also landscape keysize for Finger Touch . It actually looks very good. even better than Finger Touch for Finger typing. I don't need stylus to easily use it. although not nearly as fast as Tengo.
Strange, now I can select Happy Tapping and Tengo. The only thing I change to make it selectable is to use the blend looking skin. I can't select if I use the iPhone skin.

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First, I think I might make a little Excel Sheet/Graph of your measurements. I'll put in columns for letter height, letter width, calculated total letter area, total keyboard height in landscape, and for portrait.
I wasn't expecting the old ruler, I thought you might have had a neat app, or were doing screen grabs and checking them in Photoshop or something). Mebbe I'll do scren grabs of the different keyboard, but it's just such a PITA to reboot between each one.
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I tried & tried to use Tengo 2.1 last night. Oddly, for landscape mode, I wish the keys were wider - even clicking on the outside of the center keys (toward the edges) I had to stretch a bit to get them.
With effort, I think I could learn to scribe using my thumbs. fter about 15 minutes of practice, I could scribe the correct letter at least 50% of the time.
Mebbe I'm not using the keyboard right - but I had another major problem - it constantly guessed the wrong word! Some key combinations do have many possible words - but I think I entered "Star" and it had like 10 selections, but not the one I wanted.
This problem came up a suprising amount of times. Also, Tengo didn't seem to notice when I used the same word more often and make it higher on the list like I hoped. Using such few "letters" there are just too many combinations!
Anyway, when it missed the word, I used the 'delete last word' key and scribed it instead. Not sure if that's the correct way. I tried to use the tutorials, but the formatting is all messed up on the screen.
So I switched back to Touchpal already. Since touchpal uses 14 letter keys, it gets the word right 99.5+ % of the time. Also, it figures out longer words after about 3 clicks it seems.
My major request to the programmer, was to re-align the special keys in landscape mode, so instead of 5 columns of 4 rows to make 6 columns of 3 rows - that would reduce the overall height by 25%.