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New Hero owner here... using it 3 weeks. LOVE the phone, love the 7 pages, love the widgets, love the screen, love SenseUI, HATE the capacitive screen.
Coming form windows mobile for past 5 years, i am expending at least 5x more time and energy to navigate or browse due to this "feature".
I am certain this has been hashed out here before, but I will settle for a short answer, even one that has a laundry list if you like.
All I ask is that you please tell me it has something to add other than MULTI-TOUCH. I could care less about pinch-zoom. Initially when seen on first i-phones it had a wow factor. But very soon on WM, with OperaMini, Netfront, Skyfire, Iris and other browsers, pinch-to-zoom was rendered irrelevant, as all of these browsers provided way more efficient way to zoom in, out, and frame the area of the screen you want to look at. One tap, or two taps, or grab a square positioner (netfront) and tap.
Regardless of marketing, not only were these solutions fantastic, I alos didn't feel any sense of loss.
Now that I HAVE multi-touch on Hero, it's way beyond "yawn". It's more like, "what in the world is the advantage here. all I see is that a capacitive screen is far inferior to a resistive screen for easily 25 reasons. I listed them elsewhere on an XDA "general" forum. Typing: worse. accurate hitting a target: worse, but not just worse, horrible. Tap-hold context menus, require twice as long to press in order to instruct the OS you're indeed pressing for the purpose of holding, vs pressing just to try to make contact. Takes twice the tap impact to activate GO and other action buttons.
So I am dying to hear what is the advantage I have been given on this fantastic $500 USD phone I bought?
2nd question: I am currently using the device straight out the box, with just maybe 25-50 aps or widgets form android marketplace -- which has been fantastically smooth user experience, with perfect degrees of feedback on what access each app will give to the phone etc... very reassuring.
Has the truly amazing world of XDA-devs made some of my major usability complaints above go away, or lessen (after rooting the phone and using a custom ROM)?
Sign me: Baffled and Dismayed in San Francisco
Are there no replies here because this has been previously beaten to death? If so, wold someone please point me to the best thread discussion on this subject matter?
Thank you.
personally, i love a capacitive screen for typing.. as long as you can hit the buttons. For me i have no problem in the horizontal view, but they shouldnt have used a "qwerty" keyboard in the horizontal view, i despise it aha.
for the browsers multi touch, personally i just think its kinda cool, but as you say not very productive.
so really to me, i just love the feeling of capacitive touch screens...when they work of course!
and i know that companies "try" to put capacitive screens on as much as possible (because the iphone and ipod touch are so popular) but you can only really have it on bigger screens. The hero has pretty much the "bare minimum" screen size, and thats why we have some problems!
sorry i didnt really answer your question, just my thoughts but i guess the advantage is (was ment to be) that iphone touch screen experience, but capacitive screens work much better when the buttons have space between them (on bigger screens!)
THis was very helpful thank you. I know what you mean that the glassy smoothness is elegant and competes, I guess, with the look & feel of the Apple handheld devices. But also you seem to be answering my question, which is really the essentiual thing wanted to know:
Apparently there is ZERO added-value that capacitive brings over resistive screen than pinch-zoom... and that glossy glass feeling.
Is this correct, though? Can it really be that the primary reason for running Android on a capacitive screen is its sexiness factor in comparing to glossy look of the iphone?
I know there MUST be threads galore at XDA regarding the value of stylus for rapid composing, and more rapidly scrolling thru a long list on contacts, going into something like 2x or 5x speed flashing through the letters of the alphabet, then slowing down to land on desired contact...
The HTC Leo thread addressed this quite a bit, with both groans and raves for that WM device...
xsirhc6x said:
personally, i love a capacitive screen for typing.. as long as you can hit the buttons. For me i have no problem in the horizontal view, but they shouldnt have used a "qwerty" keyboard in the horizontal view, i despise it aha.
for the browsers multi touch, personally i just think its kinda cool, but as you say not very productive.
so really to me, i just love the feeling of capacitive touch screens...when they work of course!
and i know that companies "try" to put capacitive screens on as much as possible (because the iphone and ipod touch are so popular) but you can only really have it on bigger screens. The hero has pretty much the "bare minimum" screen size, and thats why we have some problems!
sorry i didnt really answer your question, just my thoughts but i guess the advantage is (was ment to be) that iphone touch screen experience, but capacitive screens work much better when the buttons have space between them (on bigger screens!)
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well i used apple as more of an example but i dont think i was very clear before sorry!
Although the screen is glossy and well glass, but i ment that alot of people like having that "touch" not "tap" feel. like how with capacitive you can barely touch the screen and it responds whereas resistive you have to push on the screen. so this makes companies want to use capacitive so there putting it on alot of the bigger touch screen phones
quicksite said:
Coming form windows mobile for past 5 years, i am expending at least 5x more time and energy to navigate or browse due to this "feature"
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Click to collapse
well here is your problem. and I know exactly how you feel, having some PDA and SE P1 also with resistive touch. you'll have to get used to it, there is no other way. it looks similar, like, it's a touchscreen! but difference in technology makes it hard to shift your way of using it
same thing as forgetting clickable keyboards where you can feel edge of each key and you KNOW exactly what you have pressed... and believe me, when you get that feeling with almost microscopic P1 keyboard, first few weeks of brand new high tech on-screen typing makes you smash that phone into wall next to you... but it gets better with time
This is the correct answer. Most people prefer the touch feel of capacitive compared to the press needed for resistive screens.
xsirhc6x said:
well i used apple as more of an example but i dont think i was very clear before sorry!
Although the screen is glossy and well glass, but i ment that alot of people like having that "touch" not "tap" feel. like how with capacitive you can barely touch the screen and it responds whereas resistive you have to push on the screen. so this makes companies want to use capacitive so there putting it on alot of the bigger touch screen phones
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Click to collapse
I moved from an Omnia i900 (WM, resistive screen) to the HTC Hero (Android, capacitive screen) and I am really enjoying the sensitivity of the Hero's screen. Everything is activated with a feather-light touch which really adds to the experience of using a touchscreen device.
On the Omnia, when I tried to halt a scrolling list with my finger, more often than not, I would end up choosing an item instead of stopping the scolling. This got irritating enough that I ended up using the scroll bars most of the time. On the Hero, the scrolling list amazingly stops when my finger makes contact without any unintended item selection. This probably has to do with the sensitivity of the capacitive screen but whatever it is, it works brilliantly.
The only time when I miss the resistive screen is if I need to accurately touch points on the screen due to poorly designed software but this can generally be avoided. Copy and paste could potentially have been a pain with a capacitive screen but the Hero has a trackball which gets the job done quite well.
I agree that multi-touch is nice to have but not critical. It is the sensitivity of the capacitive screen that really makes my day !
IMHO the capacitive screen is one of the best parts of my Hero (the other is not having to use clunky Windows Mobile anymore). It makes it so much more user friendly - and that attribute is what has made the iphone the best seller it is.
It is so much easier to scroll through my emails, texts, contacts, apps etc without accidently clicking on one and opening. And the same applies when scrolling between screens. In my last phone (HTC Touch Diamond) I was forever opening apps and windows I did not mean to when trying to scroll up down or sideways.
And scrolling long lists (I have over 200 contacts) is so easy. Just flick and let it run and then stop it with a finger. Try that on a non-capacitive screen and you are likely to open something you did not mean to open.
And, admittedly after a bit of practice, I have found the QERTY keyboard is no problem at all. It is almost as easy to use with my finger as my TD was with a stylus. And it is even easier when you are in landscape mode.
Still, each to his/her own. If, after giving it some time to get used to, you still don't like it I am sure there are plenty of alternatives out there - it always amazes me the number of different high-end phones HTC makes.
Resistive touch screen: You have to press harder to make it work better (Rinzai school)
Capacitive touch screen: You have to touch lighter to make it work better (Soto school)
Volker1 said:
Resistive touch screen: You have to press harder to make it work better (Rinzai school)
Capacitive touch screen: You have to touch lighter to make it work better (Soto school)
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Well somehow you faked me out with your zen-like branch differentiations. I clicked on Soto school first --- and I thought, therefore, that when I clicked on Rinzai, it would communicate more aggressive, harder. But it didn't!
Thus, i don't understand your analogy other than making it up in my head, with the meaning being:
Expend less energy and force, grasshopper, and all will be revealed.
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Click to collapse
Since the day of my posting this topic, I am starting to feel a shift by gentler tapping. In some cases, yes, I am seeing a difference in better responsiveness.
But I have to admit that this is not always the case. Leading to:
Dac0908:
well here is your problem. and I know exactly how you feel, having some PDA and SE P1 also with resistive touch. you'll have to get used to it, there is no other way.
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I am starting to get it. Quick illustration: My sim card (my old one from t-mobile wing) happens to be going bad, I just discovered. So I had to swap it out from my HERO back to my WING just to see if I could make a phone call. I had not used the WING (resistive) for a while.
I immediately started making mistakes in the opposite direction. I wasn't pushing hard enough now, and was not activating my selection. So, young grasshopper may be getting the Zen of Capacitive Touch!
it looks similar, like, it's a touchscreen! but difference in technology makes it hard to shift your way of using it. same thing as forgetting clickable keyboards where you can feel edge of each key and you KNOW exactly what you have pressed... and believe me, when you get that feeling with almost microscopic P1 keyboard, first few weeks of brand new high tech on-screen typing makes you smash that phone into wall next to you... but it gets better with time
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get your point exactly... So, sounds like the people in this forum who have had their HEROs for longer time... must think I am just whining! ha hah
Here are my conclusions thus far:
(a) lighter touch IS helping select more easily.
(b) I began to do as others have said on the soft keyboard-- aim your finger just a nudge above the keys. (because the point of tangency between finger and screen is quite a bit below the tip of the fingernail) (** me thinks they should provide a settings option called "Offset finger touch?" -- and I could select that to in fact shift all the target zones of the on-screen keys slightly below the way they display on-screen, thereby improving accuracy dramatically.)
(c) even with "getting used to" adjustments, the accuracy on the portrait-layout keyboard is still lower on those left edge and right edge keys... And thus I am finding that landscape keyboard is almost becoming required for me (and i have thin fingers!)
(d) On the WM resistive screen, I found that, when using handwriting via stylus, the system really did LEARN to compensate for the style of handwriting of an individual by going thru the alphabet to select the path of drawing each letter that best matches how I write... it absolutely improved handwriting recognition) (AND MAY AS WELL SAY: I miss that the most of all things: I loved being able to jot notes down with stylus and handwriting. I used that daily... SO I miss it)
Similarly, there is an OFFSET ANGLE adjustment on the WM input screen controls, which absolutely made a huge difference: I the natural positioning of a hand and fingers in resting mode on a flat object (a screen) has one's index finger aiming on an angle inward. Thus, the angle adjustment was a smart user interface setting, that I would guess WM came up with over time, as better recognition of this issue surfaced.
(e) I can't expect to use my capacitive screen phone in the lazy ways I used my WM phone with resistive: ie, laying down in bed and tapping out a message to send. When I try to do that with Hero, the angles of finger-contact with the screen are "off" from a standing or sitting alignment of where you hold the device and how you strike the keys. Trying to tap out a note using portrait mode, while laying in bed, and holding phone to its side (or any other awkward position) = probably 10% success rate of hitting the correct keys... Mostly due to that distance-factor between the tip of the finger -- the sight-targeting cross-hairs used for decades in pressing most things that need pressing -- and the underside of the finger, which makes the contact point lower than the tip by a somewhat predictable distance.
I still think there are some ways to go where various compensation settings could nail those issues and bring touch accuracy to much higher percentage, especially in those situations of at what angle you're holding the device in one hand, and tapping with the other hand, is "off", like laying in bed.
(f) Accelerometer: again, when laying in bed (lazy mode), the auto portrait-landscape shifting almost never occurs and i have to hold the phone parallel to the ground and flick it in order to get the layout adjustment, then continue at whatever angle it is I am holding the phone.
(g) WISHLIST #2: (after handwriting/ capacitive stylus is brought to market by HTC, etc) .. is: COntext-sensitive accelerometer.. such that it works in almost any hand-held 3d location, and a 90 degree shift = a shift layout command.
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Okay, these are my responses from a Human Factors Interface Design professional background.
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Maybe I will have to talk to "Charles", the guy in my nieghborhood in San Francisco, who just happens to be the designer of the original G1 for Google, both in form factor and user interface of android...
San Francisco can be pretty interesting in that way.. you never know who you'll bump into, just like in L.A. with movie stars!
kenkaw said:
I am really enjoying the sensitivity of the Hero's screen. Everything is activated with a feather-light touch which really adds to the experience of using a touchscreen device....On the Hero, the scrolling list amazingly stops when my finger makes contact without any unintended item selection. This probably has to do with the sensitivity of the capacitive screen but whatever it is, it works brilliantly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am starting to feel this now, too. So I am shifting mental gears in my head.
Copy and paste could potentially have been a pain with a capacitive screen but the Hero has a trackball which gets the job done quite well.
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Click to collapse
This is actually where I have the most problems.... way more than touching the screen, which I am becoming accustomed to, and now seeing what p[eople are saying about feathertouch responsiveness.
I have not been able to find any settings for trackball responsiveness, the kind you'd find on any laptop for the touchpad or mouse rate of movement -- from super fast to super slow. IS there such an adjustment?
I want to love the trackball, and I am getting better at it. But to me, this is almost just the opposite of featherweight touch on screen. My finger "wants" a more "sticky" or locked-on connection to the trackball, so i can control it better with micro-movements. For me, right now, it is so slippery as to super-slide way out of range, and shifting fields on form data entry, and , when I am using it on a slider bar such as for volume control or color mixing (chnaging color of a background), it's sensitivity is way too wild for even a light touch attempt to control it
QUESTION: I am not yet using any rooted rom from XDA... I am still experiencing the Hero out of the box. So, are there any added control settings that people at XDA have figured out and added to the custom ROMS?
thank you
I agree that multi-touch is nice to have but not critical. It is the sensitivity of the capacitive screen that really makes my day ![/QUOTE]
peterc10 said:
And scrolling long lists (I have over 200 contacts) is so easy. Just flick and let it run and then stop it with a finger.
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Click to collapse
I a starting to feel this now. I was flicking too hard initially -- as part of my learning curve. I am now getting the hang of it and am getting the kind of control you speak of. nice!
it always amazes me the number of different high-end phones HTC makes.
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Click to collapse
No ****. what an amazing company... and why I like how XDA-developers built up around HTC... This is a serious question: Is HTC a good stock buy? They seem like moreso than ever, with their new branding and direct-to-consumer marketing campaigns (at least in the USA, big time), ready to leap out as a huge brand in the way Samsung shot up from obscurity many years ago, into a top-5 leading brand of electrionics.
Many of you are having the problem where the back, home or menu buttons are insensitive and don't respond very well.
After some tests and confirmations, it is believed to be what is called 'hard capacitive buttons'.
What does hard capacitive mean? It means you have to press with a bit more force like the galaxy nexus.
Reason for hard capacitive buttons?
To prevent accidental pressing of them, thus requiring to use a bit more pressure. I makes sense now doesn't it?
please feel free to test and confirm for your own confirmations, hope this closes all the cases regarding the capacitive buttons issue!
royalbloodvi said:
Many of you are having the problem where the back, home or menu buttons are insensitive and don't respond very well.
After some tests and confirmations, it is believed to be what is called 'hard capacitive buttons'.
What does hard capacitive mean? It means you have to press with a bit more force like the galaxy nexus.
Reason for hard capacitive buttons?
To prevent accidental pressing of them, thus requiring to use a bit more pressure. I makes sense now doesn't it?
please feel free to test and confirm for your own confirmations, hope this closes all the cases regarding the capacitive buttons issue!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
true story!
royalbloodvi said:
Many of you are having the problem where the back, home or menu buttons are insensitive and don't respond very well.
After some tests and confirmations, it is believed to be what is called 'hard capacitive buttons'.
What does hard capacitive mean? It means you have to press with a bit more force like the galaxy nexus.
Reason for hard capacitive buttons?
To prevent accidental pressing of them, thus requiring to use a bit more pressure. I makes sense now doesn't it?
please feel free to test and confirm for your own confirmations, hope this closes all the cases regarding the capacitive buttons issue!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, just to let you know people will have their issues regarding this problems forever. I have gone though two Xperia S and quality of buttons differ in one another. But either way never had to push too hard to activate it. Has been pretty good but this clarify things for people with questions again.
Thanks
I tried this method and i still couldn't get it all the time. The sliding worked better but why should it be that way? As an SE fan from W910, i wanted to love it but couldn't mainly for this reason.
I think overtime time people can get it right but SE did screw it up. Just like iPhone antenna issue there is way to not let it bother you. But there are just too many design flaws with this phone for my liking.
Sent from my LT15a using xda premium
sliding my finger over the capacitive buttons works 100% of the time, so I prefer this method.
also this doesn't require a "hard press" I can just lightly slide my finger and it will register.
ssj_jaypee said:
sliding my finger over the capacitive buttons works 100% of the time, so I prefer this method.
also this doesn't require a "hard press" I can just lightly slide my finger and it will register.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 that
Nimche said:
Well, just to let you know people will have their issues regarding this problems forever. I have gone though two Xperia S and quality of buttons differ in one another. But either way never had to push too hard to activate it. Has been pretty good but this clarify things for people with questions again.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Noticed the difference myself going through the second Xperia experience...
Both phones are a bit different but the pressure used is the same.
Only the size of the capacitive buttons is different :-/
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2
I wasn't aware there was a pressure activation?
I always swipe from the transparent bar up, works 100% no "pressure" or unresponsive problems at all. I use it just as swiping in an app
I don't consider this an -issue- its more of a learning curve .
I'm not convinced by this. I can activate them with an extremely light touch (I just tested this) but only if I do a slight swiping action.
Even a touch as light as I can use on the screen works on the buttons as long as I am in the right place.
A hard press probably just spreads your finger pad out more so you get the right area more easily
Within minutes of getting my XS I naturally started using the slide technique. Can't see an issue with the buttons myself. I get the occasional miss but nothing that causes an issue.
agree with slide on them . It works perfectly
The totally active space is above the dots ,between screen and dots .
I'm with slide since I got the phone. Works better.
I've had my XS for 2 weeks now and from day 1 I didn't have problems using the capacitive buttons. I miss occasionally but that happened also with other devices.
no the buttons has an issue,when you press softly it work sometimes sometimes dont same swiping and pressing hard so no one please try to fool your self here it just doesnt work like others do
cihanleanne said:
no the buttons has an issue,when you press softly it work sometimes sometimes dont same swiping and pressing hard so no one please try to fool your self here it just doesnt work like others do
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok you are right,you feel happy now
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2
gm007 said:
Ok you are right,you feel happy now
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
its not about hapiness its about paying something and not working properly. we have to find a workaround device paying a lot money
cihanleanne said:
its not about hapiness its about paying something and not working properly. we have to find a workaround device paying a lot money
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Believe me if you use your phone for 2-3 weeks you will get used to it.
Now I don't miss any button.
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2
Hy, the 3 sensitives buttons don't work if you slide your finger down ( screen to led bar ), but if you slide up ( led bar to the screen ) he respond immediatly.
If you come by the screen, you did to go up when you arrived on the level of the sensitives buttons.
If you just slide down buttons stay inactive.
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
My first day was annoying and frustrating, but
after 24-48 hours of use I never missed a hit again.
You get used to it pretty fast once you find the "g spot" and your brain learns to automate the task.
(hint: side dots upper medial, home dot slighty up)
Now it's piece of cake
3Shirts said:
I'm not convinced by this. I can activate them with an extremely light touch (I just tested this) but only if I do a slight swiping action.
Even a touch as light as I can use on the screen works on the buttons as long as I am in the right place.
A hard press probably just spreads your finger pad out more so you get the right area more easily
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, i'm not sure about the pressure difference it might be possible, but i can also activate it with a light touch. And hard pressing results in touching with more surface, just like you said.
It also looks like the sensitive part is just a little above the dot.
The buttons do not always work, and we should not have to swipe.
Did Sony mention these buttons somewhere? manybe in the manual? lol
Maybe it is a problem just like the yellow screen is, but no one knows
Anyone else see this?
http://www.droid-life.com/2012/12/03/no-verizon-the-droid-dna-doesnt-have-on-screen-navigation-keys/
I wish my Note 2 had two home keys and got .49Mbps. Fail.
Did not like them anyway. LOL
Lmao that's hilarious
Sent from my HTC Droid DNA
Am I the only one who prefers hardware buttons? I see on-screen buttons as a waste of screen space. I mean, I suppose you could make a phone slightly shorter (or the screen longer for non-DNA phones) but I think they use that extra space to pack in more hardware / a bigger battery. If for example the DNA has software keys and the phone was that much shorter (so the screen was just below the bottom of the phone) not only would the phone have to be thicker, but imagine how uncomfortable it would be to hold the phone one handed and reach those keys.
Soft keys provide much more utility because they can be modified and changed on the fly.
Not so for hardware keys. The JB keyboard is a perfect example. The 'back' soft key on the Gnex changes to a downward arrow to hide the keyboard when in use. If it stayed as a back softkey, it would give an impression that it leaves the app or goes to a previous screen. When the keys aren't needed, such as in a video, they can be hidden.
Soft keys are the future, IMO.
Hmm well most companies, even big name corporations, do make mistakes quite often. The graphics designer and the inspector of the ad must take the fault, not Verizon itself.
But eh I laughed at it
Well IF HTC ever decides to go all software keys, I'm just going to use GMD Gesture app to assign home back search and menu as gestures and remove software keys because I don't want to loose screen real-estate.
I would worry more about legacy menus chewing up your screen real estate.
adrynalyne said:
Soft keys provide much more utility because they can be modified and changed on the fly.
Not so for hardware keys. The JB keyboard is a perfect example. The 'back' soft key on the Gnex changes to a downward arrow to hide the keyboard when in use. If it stayed as a back softkey, it would give an impression that it leaves the app or goes to a previous screen. When the keys aren't needed, such as in a video, they can be hidden.
Soft keys are the future, IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
couldnt agree with you more.
adrynalyne said:
Soft keys provide much more utility because they can be modified and changed on the fly.
Not so for hardware keys. The JB keyboard is a perfect example. The 'back' soft key on the Gnex changes to a downward arrow to hide the keyboard when in use. If it stayed as a back softkey, it would give an impression that it leaves the app or goes to a previous screen. When the keys aren't needed, such as in a video, they can be hidden.
Soft keys are the future, IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Back has always done this. I don't think that's confusing. And you can still customize hardware touch buttons, besides adding more of course. You can still make them do things with double taps and holding them. There always will be some sort of chin too for grip while held landscape, so they might as well be there to give you more screen space.
flaring afro said:
Back has always done this. I don't think that's confusing. And you can still customize hardware touch buttons, besides adding more of course. You can still make them do things with double taps and holding them. There always will be some sort of chin too for grip while held landscape, so they might as well be there to give you more screen space.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Back has always done what? Turned into a completely different icon to convey its intentions? I don't think so....unless on Nexus devices and JB.
You may be able to change hard key functions, but you cannot clarify their function by changing the icon/image. That is the problem.
Hard key function changes may be fine for us geeks, but the general public needs visual cues as well. They aren't going to understand that the button with a house on it does anything but go home. I'd wager a lot of them don't know about long presses either but that is a whole different can of worms again solvable by soft keys,
You could have soft keys change to a DIFFERENT image on long press, so to convey its function as well. Good luck doing that on capacitive keys.
adrynalyne said:
Back has always done what? Turned into a completely different icon to convey its intentions? I don't think so....unless on Nexus devices and JB.
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Click to collapse
I understand your point for other things but imo that example isn't confusing. I brought up the keyboard to type, now I want to undo that so I hit back. The screen keys don't help much in that sense either. Holding home for google now is a nice feature but isn't obvious unless someone reads the guide etc. Unfortunately smartphones are probably always going to be harder to learn than a PC due to their size and input restrictions. Though Windows 8 may prove me wrong lol
flaring afro said:
Anyone else see this?
http://www.droid-life.com/2012/12/03/no-verizon-the-droid-dna-doesnt-have-on-screen-navigation-keys/
I wish my Note 2 had two home keys and got .49Mbps. Fail.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Razr got .49mbs on LTE all the time, so I guess this ad is PROOF that they think that speed is good for LTE. That and the month's and month's on the phone with them. LOL
So I just have one concern as the title says moving to the sony line and that's the lack of physical / off the screen home/back/menu buttons. I've gone from a Galaxy S, to Galaxy S II, to iPhone 5.. now I'm heading back to Android on my personal phone as I've got a 5S from work.. and I'm really ready to give sony a try after years of Samsung.
The only thing I am very nervous about is the fact that there is no physical home button on the Sony, meaning that effectively you're losing out on a fixed portion of the screen for a home / menu /back button instead of it being fixed in the bezel / frame of the phone and out of the way of your display area. I dont understand why this isn't talked about more often in reviews about the sony. Isn't this effectively eliminating a normally useable portion of the screen's resolution? also if the phone locks up.. where as before you could count on a hardware home button to try and force some action.. what happens with the sony implementation?
I realize that this is similar to the Nexus 5, but I guess this could be directed to both phones, it seems to me like, (correct me if i'm wrong as I've stepped away from android after the galaxy S II for the past year or so) if you fire up a full screen video game, the home/menu/back UI software buttons will just be there in the software at all times taking away from the full screen experience of the screens. Isn't having a hardware button a significant benefit not only for full screen real estate, but for quick access to task management and home (example, what steps do i need to worry about with the sony to get out of a full screen movie and immediately to the desktop with no home button?) instead of one button press which I can access blindly anywhere, i have to press a few targeted screen commands?
I really feel like there are strong points to be given for a hardware home / menu / back button, to recap, 1.) more real estate can be used on the screen at all times for the rest of the UI, 2.) not as quick no look access to task manager / multitasking / home 3.) significantly worse full screen gaming experience due to the persistent ui / on screen softkeys.
This is the only thing thats tipping me towards the Galaxy S 5, I guess i wanted to ask what your real world usage with this sony implementation is like and if you feel it is really a hinderance or not. Thanks!
nickbarbs said:
So I just have one concern as the title says moving to the sony line and that's the lack of physical / off the screen home/back/menu buttons. I've gone from a Galaxy S, to Galaxy S II, to iPhone 5.. now I'm heading back to Android on my personal phone as I've got a 5S from work.. and I'm really ready to give sony a try after years of Samsung.
The only thing I am very nervous about is the fact that there is no physical home button on the Sony, meaning that effectively you're losing out on a fixed portion of the screen for a home / menu /back button instead of it being fixed in the bezel / frame of the phone and out of the way of your display area. I dont understand why this isn't talked about more often in reviews about the sony. Isn't this effectively eliminating a normally useable portion of the screen's resolution? also if the phone locks up.. where as before you could count on a hardware home button to try and force some action.. what happens with the sony implementation?
I realize that this is similar to the Nexus 5, but I guess this could be directed to both phones, it seems to me like, (correct me if i'm wrong as I've stepped away from android after the galaxy S II for the past year or so) if you fire up a full screen video game, the home/menu/back UI software buttons will just be there in the software at all times taking away from the full screen experience of the screens. Isn't having a hardware button a significant benefit not only for full screen real estate, but for quick access to task management and home (example, what steps do i need to worry about with the sony to get out of a full screen movie and immediately to the desktop with no home button?) instead of one button press which I can access blindly anywhere, i have to press a few targeted screen commands?
I really feel like there are strong points to be given for a hardware home / menu / back button, to recap, 1.) more real estate can be used on the screen at all times for the rest of the UI, 2.) not as quick no look access to task manager / multitasking / home 3.) significantly worse full screen gaming experience due to the persistent ui / on screen softkeys.
This is the only thing thats tipping me towards the Galaxy S 5, I guess i wanted to ask what your real world usage with this sony implementation is like and if you feel it is really a hinderance or not. Thanks!
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Click to collapse
Hey Nick, yeah I see your anxiety, for a while I had the same.
To be honest the fact that there is no home button, aesthetically, for me is a massive plus. I love the idea of just a blank slate where everything is controlled from the screen. I actually hated the samsung implementation of having a touchscreen PLUS hardware button PLUS capacitive buttons. To me that's extremely messy. The all-touchscreen phone is the ultimate minimalism, and I think it's this minimalism that is attractive and impressive as tech goes forward into the future. Hardware buttons on the front face are becoming (and should be) a thing of the past.
In relation to the screen real-estate problem, which I too will have when I get my xperia z2, you should do what I plan on doing and download an app called GMD AUTOHIDE. Youtube it.
There are many others but from youtube this looks the most fully featured. You need to be rooted, but once you have it you can hide and summon the software keys at your leisure (and in different ways), thus using the full screen real estate when you need to and bringing the buttons back easily with a slide up or some other gesture.
Youtube it, it looks awesome.
ps. if you're afraid to root or just don't want to, there are certain apps that support android's 'immersive mode' which means when launched the software keys hide anyway.
It's the way Google have been pushing since ICS, and to be fair it is a good way of doing things. It enables larger screens for movie playback for a start. Instead if thinking it as a waste of screen real estate, think of it as buttons being a waste of bezel. The buttons will always be buttons, but with on screen buttons, the space can be used more. In regards to the hardware button being an override for crashes, I've had a nexus 7 (2012) since launch, and it's never ever been a problem.
Once you get past the need for physical touch, the on-screen buttons will be God sent. Not only does that allow the screen to be bigger, but you can customize the button and do other cool stuff.
I think a number of phones cross platforms are heading towards no physical button.
edge3uk said:
It's the way Google have been pushing since ICS, and to be fair it is a good way of doing things. It enables larger screens for movie playback for a start. Instead if thinking it as a waste of screen real estate, think of it as buttons being a waste of bezel. The buttons will always be buttons, but with on screen buttons, the space can be used more. In regards to the hardware button being an override for crashes, I've had a nexus 7 (2012) since launch, and it's never ever been a problem.
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Click to collapse
I agree somewhat that google has been going this way, but disagree that it's a good way of doing things and also disagree that it enables larger screens.
** Disclaimer ** these are just my opinions
1. I see Google's Nexus phone (yes I've owned 2 of them) as a framework for Android, not so much what it wants all other Android manufacturers to go. For example, the SD-Card. No Nexus devices come with an SD-Card. Does this mean that SD-Cards will die on Android? As we can see, their inclusion is becoming more widespread, not the other way around.
2. Agree that hardware buttons aren't ideal. However, I see nothing wrong with capacitive buttons. Make them generic shapes so users can assign custom actions to them. It would free up space, allow everyone to be happy, and allow for things like swipe-2-wake with little to no battery penalty.
3. Capacitive buttons were removed on the HTC M8, did the bezel go away, no. I think the LG G2 is the phone with the smallest bezels on record and it still has plenty of space for capacitive buttons below the screen.
With all that said, I don't think it's a big deal to have on-screen buttons. They work the same and with android making the UI elements transparent it doesn't feel as bad as before when it really felt like it cut down on screen space. Honestly, I don't know what was so wrong about the original 4-way capacitive button layout from a few generations back. Menu, Home, Back, Search. I'd love for someone to explain to me how searching for 3 dots or if there's a pullout pane on the left or right is better than always being able to press a menu capacitive button.
se1000 said:
I agree somewhat that google has been going this way, but disagree that it's a good way of doing things and also disagree that it enables larger screens.
** Disclaimer ** these are just my opinions
1. I see Google's Nexus phone (yes I've owned 2 of them) as a framework for Android, not so much what it wants all other Android manufacturers to go. For example, the SD-Card. No Nexus devices come with an SD-Card. Does this mean that SD-Cards will die on Android? As we can see, their inclusion is becoming more widespread, not the other way around.
2. Agree that hardware buttons aren't ideal. However, I see nothing wrong with capacitive buttons. Make them generic shapes so users can assign custom actions to them. It would free up space, allow everyone to be happy, and allow for things like swipe-2-wake with little to no battery penalty.
3. Capacitive buttons were removed on the HTC M8, did the bezel go away, no. I think the LG G2 is the phone with the smallest bezels on record and it still has plenty of space for capacitive buttons below the screen.
With all that said, I don't think it's a big deal to have on-screen buttons. They work the same and with android making the UI elements transparent it doesn't feel as bad as before when it really felt like it cut down on screen space. Honestly, I don't know what was so wrong about the original 4-way capacitive button layout from a few generations back. Menu, Home, Back, Search. I'd love for someone to explain to me how searching for 3 dots or if there's a pullout pane on the left or right is better than always being able to press a menu capacitive button.
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Click to collapse
I completely understand what you mean. The fact the M8 has the bezel and onscreen buttons is a major factor as why im not getting one. It's ridiculous. On-screen buttons do allow more screen in a same-size device, which is a better way of saying what I was trying to say. I'm all for on screen buttons.
For the record, more devices may be including sd card slots, but with kitkat, it's a bit of a pain in the arse. I'll be okay, I don't like so many apps installed, I'm quite tidy, but 16gb and an sd card seems to have replaced 32gb, which could be used for whatever you liked. I don't want to have to root my Z2, Im kinda looking forward to getting a phone that just does everything I want it to out if the box. I have a one X at the minute, and the capacitive buttons are brilliant, but I'd trade the space they take up for more screen in a second.
se1000 said:
I agree somewhat that google has been going this way, but disagree that it's a good way of doing things and also disagree that it enables larger screens.
** Disclaimer ** these are just my opinions
1. I see Google's Nexus phone (yes I've owned 2 of them) as a framework for Android, not so much what it wants all other Android manufacturers to go. For example, the SD-Card. No Nexus devices come with an SD-Card. Does this mean that SD-Cards will die on Android? As we can see, their inclusion is becoming more widespread, not the other way around.
2. Agree that hardware buttons aren't ideal. However, I see nothing wrong with capacitive buttons. Make them generic shapes so users can assign custom actions to them. It would free up space, allow everyone to be happy, and allow for things like swipe-2-wake with little to no battery penalty.
3. Capacitive buttons were removed on the HTC M8, did the bezel go away, no. I think the LG G2 is the phone with the smallest bezels on record and it still has plenty of space for capacitive buttons below the screen.
With all that said, I don't think it's a big deal to have on-screen buttons. They work the same and with android making the UI elements transparent it doesn't feel as bad as before when it really felt like it cut down on screen space. Honestly, I don't know what was so wrong about the original 4-way capacitive button layout from a few generations back. Menu, Home, Back, Search. I'd love for someone to explain to me how searching for 3 dots or if there's a pullout pane on the left or right is better than always being able to press a menu capacitive button.
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Click to collapse
This domino effect wherein all your favorite things might fall one after another has nothing to do with whether physical nav buttons are a good idea. I personally hate not having an SD card myself but it just isn't an argument for or against the nav button type. Also the battery penalty is meaningless as you could as easily have any portion of the screen sensitive to swipe or tapping as you ca the cap buttons with exactly the same power draw. You might notice that two of the three upcoming flagship phones now have tap to wake/sleep.
Your last point I agree with, there is plenty of space for four buttons which I preferred while still having room for a button to show dynamically like the menu button often does. This is as the fellow you quoted said one of the best parts of not having physical or cap buttons. On my N5 I use four and move them where I want them. Sure you could do that with caps but what you couldn't do is please everyone. I could have one button up to five in any combination since there is no limitation of having the cap buttons themselves deciding the manner. You should also be aware that the phone can produce the buttons on the fly and use the area as screen instead which actually works pretty well in use.
In the end I guess I deal with it by liking it better.
se1000 said:
I agree somewhat that google has been going this way, but disagree that it's a good way of doing things and also disagree that it enables larger screens.
** Disclaimer ** these are just my opinions
1. I see Google's Nexus phone (yes I've owned 2 of them) as a framework for Android, not so much what it wants all other Android manufacturers to go. For example, the SD-Card. No Nexus devices come with an SD-Card. Does this mean that SD-Cards will die on Android? As we can see, their inclusion is becoming more widespread, not the other way around.
2. Agree that hardware buttons aren't ideal. However, I see nothing wrong with capacitive buttons. Make them generic shapes so users can assign custom actions to them. It would free up space, allow everyone to be happy, and allow for things like swipe-2-wake with little to no battery penalty.
3. Capacitive buttons were removed on the HTC M8, did the bezel go away, no. I think the LG G2 is the phone with the smallest bezels on record and it still has plenty of space for capacitive buttons below the screen.
With all that said, I don't think it's a big deal to have on-screen buttons. They work the same and with android making the UI elements transparent it doesn't feel as bad as before when it really felt like it cut down on screen space. Honestly, I don't know what was so wrong about the original 4-way capacitive button layout from a few generations back. Menu, Home, Back, Search. I'd love for someone to explain to me how searching for 3 dots or if there's a pullout pane on the left or right is better than always being able to press a menu capacitive button.
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Click to collapse
I completely understand your worry, but as said, you can change your mind pretty quickly. I went from a Xperia X10 Mini Pro (with physical navigation buttons) to a Xperia S (capacitative nav. buttons), and now coupled with a Tablet Z (on screen navigation buttons). First improvement I had from the X10 MP to the XS, was that even with tight spaces (pockets, or whatever), the buttons weren't pressed by accident. The capacitative buttons on the XS are a bit hard to press at first, but you easily get used to them. Unlike Samsung's, they don't offer a high change of also being pressed by accident when holding the device.
Now, with the Tablet Z, with only on screen buttons, it was a worry for me at first, having both status bar and navigation bar, using more space. However, after a bit, I got used to it. With the awesome Double Tap to Wake function, I almost never need to reach the power button anymore. Sometimes, I even get myself trying that on the XS, and wondering why it isn't working, only to then realize it doesn't have that function lol
When using media apps, like video players, gallery apps, etc, the buttons either hide completely or, with 4.4 devices, enter the Translucent Mode, where the bars have a gradient and the content can be seen under it. To bring them back, or swipe the status bar down once, or touch the screen once. So, in the important cases, they just go away, not taking your precious real screen state.
Regarding capacitative buttons, like you said, aren't that much of a big deal. But, believe me, switch to on screen buttons and you will see how better it is. When you don't need it, they simply go away. Also, it uses much less internal space to put them on the screen than capacitative ones. Last, but not least, they don't stop working
Regarding the HTC One M8, if you look at teardowns pictures, you will see that the "extra" bezel was needed to fit the components inside the phone. There's so much tech inside such a small body. It's not easy to put all of that inside that. If they were to reduce the bezel, they would need a ticker device. The Xperia Z2 has a quite big bezel compared to other devices, but like the M8, there's so much tech inside that body, that they need to sacrifice on something to compensate on others. Part is also due the OmniBalance design, that demands some harmony, symmetry.
Lastly, part of the answer to the 4 button vs 3 dots is based on what I said earlier, regarding accidental touches, etc. But, most importantly, is so that the user KNOWS there's another menu there, that they can access. With my old X10 MP, I took 1 to 2 months to really understand the use of that third button on the device. When I pressed it and saw a menu pop, I was like "Ohhh, so there's more stuff here!". That was the main idea, at least from what I know.
Btw, sorry for the huge post...
Also, some manufacturers are taking advantage of on-screen buttons to make really small bezels. Check out the LG G2 and the Moto X. Their bezels are small enough that putting physical buttons there would be extremely awkward, so you end up with a smaller device/larger screen (however you want to look at it) thanks to on-screen buttons. I have a feeling phone designs will increasingly move in that direction.
when the screen gets big, having a dedicated home button will be really awkward to press when you are holding the phone near the middle. i thought i will never able to escape from the home button from the galaxy line, but after using nexus 4, i could never go back to using the damn home button...
theclueless said:
when the screen gets big, having a dedicated home button will be really awkward to press when you are holding the phone near the middle. i thought i will never able to escape from the home button from the galaxy line, but after using nexus 4, i could never go back to using the damn home button...
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Click to collapse
Thanks for your comments- looks people do have views on this but many of you are fine with it - can anyone confirms how these software navigation keys will behave in games and movies ? Do they ever disappear ? How do you get them back if so?
Thanks - I'm feeling a bit better about trying it out ...
nickbarbs said:
can anyone confirms how these software navigation keys will behave in games and movies ? Do they ever disappear ? How do you get them back if so?
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Click to collapse
Almost all movie apps will cause them to disappear. This has been a feature of Android for quite a while now. You just tap the screen and they come back.
A few games/apps also cause them to disappear. This is a new feature of Android as of KitKat (4.4) known as "immersive mode," so there are limited games/apps that support it. You get the controls back by swiping from the top or bottom of the screen, but simply tapping or swiping elsewhere on the screen will not bring them back, so you can continue using the app/game in full-screen.
Hi,
I´m really eager to know if LG finally is smart like Samsung and HTC, to use the space below the display for control keys instead of wasting part of the screen. Come on LG, it´s not so hard to learn! I am not willing to carry a large, unhandy device which is not even capable of using the complete screen for displaying contents.
Buy a Samsung then. I prefer soft keys. Hardware keys are retarded.
Is this the first time you've used an Android phone? The old ancient phones used capacative and hardware buttons, on-screen buttons are the newer way of interacting with your device that is replacing capacative and hardware buttons. The benefits of course mean you can have smaller bottom bezels, the buttons can hide when using immersive apps like videos and photos, they can change based on your preference or when the OS gets updated, etc.
Physical and capacative buttons are archaic.
Well, not the smartest kind of an answer but that was to be expected - fanboys even would argue bull**** to gold.
Seems you never used a modern smartphone with these softkeys integrated in screen but below the display.
Its not very hard to understand, that this is the way to get the most of the surface area of a smartphone.
No question the g5 will have software keys. I have to say after bouncing between LG and Samsung phones I much prefer Samsung's setup. The bottom bezel on my v10 isn't any smaller than that on my note 4, so LG could easily integrate capacitive buttons on their devices. Yes the software keys disappear in certain apps, but that just means it takes another swipe or tap to get them to reappear, which is only adding an extra step to exiting an app.
I also much prefer Samsung's home/fingerprint sensor setup. You can turn on the screen with the home button (no need for double tap to wake,) and when using the fingerprint security you can still unlock the phone when it's laying on a desk or in your car cradle without having to input a pattern or pin.
I'm not saying software keys are an absolute deal breaker, but they offer no benefit compared to capacitive keys and have several drawbacks.
Thank you rivera02,
thats the best description about it, you brought it to the point.
Its not that Samsung smartphones are absolutely best, I think the G4 has many advantages like the changeable battery and the sdcard slot. But every oem builds in certian disadvantages, so everybody has the choice to take what annoys him or her the less
Bluecharge said:
Well, not the smartest kind of an answer but that was to be expected - fanboys even would argue bull**** to gold.
Seems you never used a modern smartphone with these softkeys integrated in screen but below the display.
Its not very hard to understand, that this is the way to get the most of the surface area of a smartphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, they aren't softkeys if they are below the display, they are capacative keys. They can not change, they are printed into the phone itself. And yes, I had an S6 and Note 5 so I know well what they are like. Having to physically press a button is really annoying when trying to press it one handed, where the phone is already delicately balanced in your hand. For the capacative buttons, I much prefer on screen keys that disappear when you don't need them, and ones that you can change at will or when Android gets updated.
geoff5093 said:
First off, they aren't softkeys if they are below the display, they are capacative keys. They can not change, they are printed into the phone itself. And yes, I had an S6 and Note 5 so I know well what they are like. Having to physically press a button is really annoying when trying to press it one handed, where the phone is already delicately balanced in your hand. For the capacative buttons, I much prefer on screen keys that disappear when you don't need them, and ones that you can change at will or when Android gets updated.
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Hi geoff5093,
sorry that was my misunderstanding. You're right and I didn't mean hardwarebuttons but capacitive keys below the display. I personally think, that disappearing softwarekeys have much disadvantages, because you have to make them appear and this often interacts with the app you were using to this point. With capacitive keys below the screen they are available whenever you need them, they don't need any display space and they don't interact unwantedly with the before-used app.
The ideal way may be both of them. Capacitive keys below the screen and aditional softwarekeys for whoever likes to have an idividual layout. But I think that nobody would do this, as there seem not to exist any mod for additional softwarekeys e.g. for Samsung or HTC devices.
Softkeys have their benefits. They can be customized, moved around, even their appearance can be changed. However they DO waste screen space. Whenever these comparisons come up people claim that phones with sofkeys can/do have smaller bezels and that "sofkeys disappear when you don't need them anyway". The former is simply not true. Capacitive buttons take up so little space that you could fit them in any phone with softkeys. As for the latter, softkeys are still there 95% of the time I'm using the phone. Browsing/texting/using the dialer, they are still there making the usable screen noticeably smaller. It's the only thing I actually like about Samsung phones. Note 5 and Nexus 6P share the same screen size and yet the Samsung is smaller in hand AND has a larger usable screen area because no space is ever wasted on softkeys. LG G5 with sofkeys and 5.3" screen would mean roughly the same usable space as 5.5" LG G4 and also a more compact device. The bad thing is that in the case of this particular phone it would mean these modules would need to come with integrated capacitive buttons as well.
geoff5093 said:
Is this the first time you've used an Android phone? The old ancient phones used capacative and hardware buttons, on-screen buttons are the newer way of interacting with your device that is replacing capacative and hardware buttons. The benefits of course mean you can have smaller bottom bezels, the buttons can hide when using immersive apps like videos and photos, they can change based on your preference or when the OS gets updated, etc.
Physical and capacative buttons are archaic.
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Click to collapse
I won't even buy a phone if it has hardware buttons. It's not 2011 any more.
I kinda like soft keys actually, I never have to bother with which way is up when operating the phone in landscape and less oops I've hit the home/back key scenarios. I've done the whole HTC/Samsung/Sony/LG round from actual buttons, capacitive buttons and some weird capacitive dot thing.
If only they could figure out a better way to make buttons appear when in full screen. That's the only complaint since sometimes it will miss.
Someone above said home button is better than double tap to wake. Wat a BS, lol. Are you from samsung or what? Following this approach, I am wondering why you did not say there should have been numeric hard keys to dial instead of touch screen.
I left Samsung because of that button. Got tired of the button waking the phone and then accidentally unlocking phone. Then making accidental phone calls and answering them. Love softkeys! Makes my phone look sleeker
Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk
hardware keys are lame and waste internal space and bezel. software keys for the win!
Nobody wrote about hardwarekeys.
First read, then write. Some of you never will get it.
capacative and hardware buttons, are the best for me.
on-screen buttons sometimes don't disappear when playing some games or sometimes on app's aswell.
they should have all 3, capacative and hardware buttons and on screen button.
if you want to use capacative or hardware botton use it. and if you don't like it then use on screen button by going to the setting and change it. like. like onePlus Two did.
Waxim1 said:
Someone above said home button is better than double tap to wake. Wat a BS, lol. Are you from samsung or what? Following this approach, I am wondering why you did not say there should have been numeric hard keys to dial instead of touch screen.
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No doubt. That is one of the most bizarre posts I have ever seen. Double tap to wake is a must for me now and any phone that doesnt have it is nearly a deal breaker. It is definitely better than hitting home and there is truly no way to logically argue that it is and yet somehow someone is trying.
Sorry but I did not get the message of this thread. Even a device with capacitive keys needs place for those keys, not on the screen but on the device that will increase the size of the phone. Biggest screen on the smallest device is possible only with softkeys. And these can be hided by the system in particular application in order to use the entire screen.
Bluecharge said:
Well, not the smartest kind of an answer but that was to be expected - fanboys even would argue bull**** to gold.
Seems you never used a modern smartphone with these softkeys integrated in screen but below the display.
Its not very hard to understand, that this is the way to get the most of the surface area of a smartphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...like my Oneplus Two...:good:
AMDZen said:
No doubt. That is one of the most bizarre posts I have ever seen. Double tap to wake is a must for me now and any phone that doesnt have it is nearly a deal breaker. It is definitely better than hitting home and there is truly no way to logically argue that it is and yet somehow someone is trying.
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Click to collapse
Lol well to each their own, but I think arguing that it's more convenient to tap a screen twice than to tap a button once is a pretty illogical argument. Much more so when you take into account the fact that LG has never gotten the double tap feature to work with one hundred percent accuracy.