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I've been working with a great group of developers over at PPC-geeks.com on the Titan bluetooth problems, and I'm proud to say that our efforts have been fruitful!
The History:
In case you didn't know, the Titan has had horrible official Bluetooth support, and even the custom roms only get it "partway" there.
HTC's latest CDMA device, the Touch, uses roughly the same hardware under the hood as the Titan, however their bluetooth worked flawlessly. So, clearly the hardware is capable, its a matter of running the proper software!
After many attempts at porting the Vogue (htc touch) Bluetooth drivers into any number and combination of titan roms, it was concluded that it is NOT the answer (sorry custel).
This was the first obvious approach, however every attempt had some problem or bug, or sometimes wouldn't even boot up!
So we took another approach...
The Solution:
Update the OS, but keep the drivers from an earlier build that had less new "issues" with BT. The 2.09 rom from sprint had stable bluetooth, however it had poor quality over the headset/handsfree profile. This was apparently NOT an issue with the drivers as much as it was an issue with how the OS handles them!
Replacing the OS with a ported AKU .7 from a Universal, and basing the rest of the rom on 2.09, we have what appears to be a release with stable, decent quality bluetooth that works as it should have out of the box!
More testing is needed, but it seems like the best build so far, and should be a strong candidate as a base rom for future customs.
What this fixes:
-No more poor BT quality
-No more random BT shutoffs
-No more system freezes when coming out of standby due to BT stack left on and disconnected
-No more D-pad lock issues
-Generally stable Bluetooth performance that works AS EXPECTED.
Known issues:
-Alarm Bug, which was and still is a part of 2.09
However, we're working on a fix for this.
Find it here:
ftp://ppcgeeks:[email protected]/Titan/Users/sfaure03/ithinkwegotsit.rar
(as of this writing, the ppcgeeks ftp and webserver have been hit pretty hard, and are timing out an awful lot, so if it doesn't work, try again later. Perhaps someone would like to mirror it somewhere?)
Special thanks to all who contributed to this effort, particularly PPC-geeks users Sfaure03, DogGuy, no2chem, jtrag, and all the others who tested, theorized, and gave sage advice.
Personal thanks to ImCoKeMaN, for explaining how things work and having the patience to answer bizzare questions from the rest of the group.
edit: whoops nevermind
I'm not expereinced enough in using this type of file - can you please tell me what is the procedure to install a .rar file into the phone.
its an .nbh file, rar is the compression method. Its like .zip, only you need winrar (or something compatible) to uncompress it.
there's a tutorial on ppc-geeks (which I should really post here as well) about how to unlock and flash custom firmwares on the titan.
you guys rock!
So installed this ROM a couple hours ago. So far the phone's working fine. Tested BT in my RAV4. Wife says it's much improved -- previously if I called from the carphone she'd known instantly and ask me to switch it off. Now she's says it's fine. (High praise indeed. )
So bottom line: quality issues appear much improved. Major kudos!
Update: maybe I was slightly hasty. So the phone sits in my pocket for a few hours. I press the power button to bring it out of sleep. Password screen takes 15 seconds to come up. Enter the password, Today screen takes 30 seconds. Click on the Voicemail link, get a message that the phone cannot make the call. (low RAM?) Nothing else (afaik) except SPB Mobile Shell running at the time.
Boom, soft reset. Is it the phone? Is it the ROM? Is it me?
Mirror at: http://rapidshare.com/files/71094429/ithinkwegotsit.rar.html
The ROM finally makes my BT usable, but is still quite choppy and compressed. Unfortunately not a true fix for my device.
But, kudos to the developers for getting it to be usable! Thanks!!! You clearly beat Sprint/HTC!
However, my RAZR2 and Touch still have much better BT, so will keep using them at least for awhile.
Will see if the 'official' Sprint ROM (1) actually happens, (2) truly fixes the problem. If not, then I'll use my Touch until the Treo 800w or Titan 2.0 come out and likely swap my Titan at that point.
Unfortunately, even if Sprint fixes BT, Titan 1.0 will never have adequate memory for WM6. Sadly, the lack of memory is an unfixable product design deficiency.
wsparvis said:
Unfortunately, even if Sprint fixes BT, Titan 1.0 will never have adequate memory for WM6. Sadly, the lack of memory is an unfixable product design deficiency.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heh, I love it how everyone keeps badgering that.
Look, I don't want to take my thread off-course, but when WM6 was released, ALL DEVICES HAD ONLY 64MB!
It wasn't until recently that we really started to see 128mb become more standard. The Touch (vogue) is actually the first 128mb WM6 device I've ever put my hands on, and I've had WM6 running flawlessly on the last 5 or so devices I've owned.
So, don't tell me that this is a major unfixable product design deficiency. It'd be nice to have more memory so you can leave more stuff open, but if you're not new to this and know what you're doing, its perfectly acceptable.
::end rant::
Dishe said:
Heh, I love it how everyone keeps badgering that.
Look, I don't want to take my thread off-course, but when WM6 was released, ALL DEVICES HAD ONLY 64MB!
It wasn't until recently that we really started to see 128mb become more standard. The Touch (vogue) is actually the first 128mb WM6 device I've ever put my hands on, and I've had WM6 running flawlessly on the last 5 or so devices I've owned.
So, don't tell me that this is a major unfixable product design deficiency. It'd be nice to have more memory so you can leave more stuff open, but if you're not new to this and know what you're doing, its perfectly acceptable.
::end rant::
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree here - the Cingular 8525 runs quite well with only 64MB of RAM (Other at work run it). My Titan runs quite well with only 64MB of RAM - HTC Home from the touch on the other hand makes it run like a three legged dog. Without the 3rd party plugins it zooms along quite well even with several apps running.
Dishe said:
Heh, I love it how everyone keeps badgering that.
Look, I don't want to take my thread off-course, but when WM6 was released, ALL DEVICES HAD ONLY 64MB!
It wasn't until recently that we really started to see 128mb become more standard. The Touch (vogue) is actually the first 128mb WM6 device I've ever put my hands on, and I've had WM6 running flawlessly on the last 5 or so devices I've owned.
So, don't tell me that this is a major unfixable product design deficiency. It'd be nice to have more memory so you can leave more stuff open, but if you're not new to this and know what you're doing, its perfectly acceptable.
::end rant::
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK - fair enough, my memory comment WAS off topic! BTW you introduced the word "major"; I never said it was major - just unfixable. And, yes, you're right - if you want to manually do the OS's job for it, there is an acceptable workaround.
Interesting, though, that you responded only to that one sentence out of five in my post, not the other four which stated that BT quality is poor/mediocre on my device (which is an improvement from the prior unlistenable state).
Anyway - what kind of success rate are you seeing from various forums with this ROM? I still suspect the problem is partially HW, and that BT on some devices (mine probably one of them) may be unfixable.
Dishe said:
After many attempts at porting the Vogue (htc touch) Bluetooth drivers into any number and combination of titan roms, it was concluded that it is NOT the answer (sorry custel).
This was the first obvious approach, however every attempt had some problem or bug, or sometimes wouldn't even boot up!
So we took another approach...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why call out another developer? I fail to see how it was necessary. I'm assuming you have no life, and make roms for a living? I'll download whatever works; but because of your approach to criticize other people who try (which is EXACTLY what you do) to make something work, makes me not want to download your rom.
dishe is an such arrogant SOB, who think he's all that because he's creating ROM...well props to you that you do create rom...but its just people opinion/wish about having more ram (which is UNFIXABLE! on mogul)...you don't have to bash them for it...would u preferred an old style laptop/computer from the 2000's or newer/faster in 07's. However, you might be able to upgrade their RAM through hardware...but does HTC have such RAM upgrade for mogul!? anyways...i'm not hating on your work at all...but i just get disgusted when you go and ranted on someone post (n it was a valid post.)
ps. If you want to brag, make something that's useful w/o any glitches. Success at that then brag all you want, but at this moment you still using the public to test whatever ya doing. So stop tripping home boy.
Wow, I've heard of people venting on forums, but this is rediculous. Did you all have really bad days or something?
Look, there's a lot going on that doesn't take place on this forum. I used to be a big XDA-dev's fan, but unfortunatley I've found that there just isn't enough research and development for our particular device going on here, so I started broadening my horizons.
Maybe I didn't make it clear in the first post, but I didn't make this rom.
At least, not by myself. I worked with a team of people from other boards and we formed a group that has been testing theories and building different rom combinations to try and come up with the best solution possible currently. We've made some amazing progress, and the nostalgic part of me wanted to come back to XDA and not leave you guys in the dark.
We've noticed Custel doing similar things on XDA, and we had already tried a lot of what he was doing. We found that the vogue BT didn't play nice with the rest of the Titan rom components in many situations, yet Custel kept trying. I beleive that some of the devs in our group tried to contact him, possibly even get him involved, share what we've learned so far (collaborative efforts are the best way to go). I don't know exactly what happened after that, and I didn't ask because its not my business. I mentioned him because he's still trying something, where we've had a bit of success. Not that its a race, but it would appear that we got there first using another method. I'm sorry that you read that as a "flame" on his part, I didn't mean to disrespect. Just that we we're doing is not what he's doing, and we've tried that route already.
Some of the others in the group of devs warned me not to go posting here. Thought maybe there would be too much animosity. I decided on my own to bring the information here because XDA was always a great source of info in the past, and there's no reason you guys should be left out. Are you trying to make me regret it, as if I'm wasting my time here?
Lazy and cool6324, I'm not forcing you to try this rom. I'm also not "bragging" about what was created. I'm filling you guys in. If you don't want it, that's fine. I won't bother updating.
hey DISHE
bro u dont even owe these guys an explanation, they contribute nothing and take everything. they dont understand whats involved and quick to criticize anything they dont agree with.
it appears to me that they think they are all that and a bag of chips/ but if the DEVs of these fixes decided not to share, i bet they would keep there mouth shut real quick/
bottom line bro, dont bother posting any more responses to these idiots / look at the end of the "
Hard-SPL - or how to not brick your PDA ever again" post and u will see what these guys are like on this forum, calling each other names and etc just like they r doing now.
i c u at ppcgeeks
Dishe said:
Wow, I've heard of people venting on forums, but this is rediculous. Did you all have really bad days or something?
Look, there's a lot going on that doesn't take place on this forum. I used to be a big XDA-dev's fan, but unfortunatley I've found that there just isn't enough research and development for our particular device going on here, so I started broadening my horizons.
Maybe I didn't make it clear in the first post, but I didn't make this rom.
At least, not by myself. I worked with a team of people from other boards and we formed a group that has been testing theories and building different rom combinations to try and come up with the best solution possible currently. We've made some amazing progress, and the nostalgic part of me wanted to come back to XDA and not leave you guys in the dark.
We've noticed Custel doing similar things on XDA, and we had already tried a lot of what he was doing. We found that the vogue BT didn't play nice with the rest of the Titan rom components in many situations, yet Custel kept trying. I beleive that some of the devs in our group tried to contact him, possibly even get him involved, share what we've learned so far (collaborative efforts are the best way to go). I don't know exactly what happened after that, and I didn't ask because its not my business. I mentioned him because he's still trying something, where we've had a bit of success. Not that its a race, but it would appear that we got there first using another method. I'm sorry that you read that as a "flame" on his part, I didn't mean to disrespect. Just that we we're doing is not what he's doing, and we've tried that route already.
Some of the others in the group of devs warned me not to go posting here. Thought maybe there would be too much animosity. I decided on my own to bring the information here because XDA was always a great source of info in the past, and there's no reason you guys should be left out. Are you trying to make me regret it, as if I'm wasting my time here?
Lazy and cool6324, I'm not forcing you to try this rom. I'm also not "bragging" about what was created. I'm filling you guys in. If you don't want it, that's fine. I won't bother updating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where was I supposedly contacted?
dishe don't even trip! The folks *****ing are the ones using the Roms also. Take their comments with a grain of salt....F**K EM!!!! Don't waste your time on these idiots. Others apperciate the work you do to make our Moguls useful.
to step: shut ur ass kissing d!ck sucking ***** depriving n a **** hole that you called a mouth! I dont even use BT, yeah its nice to have clean/custom rom to rig my phone. But a stock is fine with me. Just tired of people kissing dev's asses geeze....get them stick out of ur ass....
ps. i never did dish at dishe's rom nor either ***** at it....it was his tactics of bashing on people posts...so get it right...
lazee said:
to step: shut ur ass kissing d!ck sucking ***** depriving n a **** hole that you called a mouth! I dont even use BT, yeah its nice to have clean/custom rom to rig my phone. But a stock is fine with me. Just tired of people kissing dev's asses geeze....get them stick out of ur ass....
ps. i never did dish at dishe's rom nor either ***** at it....it was his tactics of bashing on people posts...so get it right...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LMAO...such childish folks here....I'm gonna just LMAO!! at u...so sad
Lazee,
its not about kissing ass. Its about appreciation for what these guys do (AND FOR FREE they do it!!!!) they rarely ask anything of the rest of us, if anything at all. Because of the fact that they do give up alot of free time, which they could be doing something else, to help out alot people they dont even know, i have a certain amount of respect for that alone, regardless if they might seem arrogant. the truth is that they really do care about people or they wouldnt even share what they do! theres no law that says that they have to share anything with us/ sometimes its easy for us to forget this and take it all for granit/ lets just call a truce and stop with the name callin and etc and try to maintain a respectible forum ok.
PEACE!!! come on guys we are all in this together
Oh and by the way Custel, u rock bro, do what it is u do and dont stop!! dishe luvs ya nothing personal, i dont want to speak for him but i get the feeling that things might have came out wrong when he was responding to the "lazee's post and was just a lil fluddered.
Hi hkwildboy,
Great appreciation to hkwildboy discovering such an solution for quick GPS locking ........ & here is a CAB who find difficulty in editing Reg edit......
Mod's just for an awareness among all members i created new thread as this is a most essential part (GPS locking) most people complain of......
As per the feed back from senior's i came to know that the cab i attached was not working so please forgive me ...this thread will be closed.
Is the cab uninstallable?
aadadams said:
Is the cab uninstallable?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it is uninstallable......
I'm trying it out on AT&T Fuze with Shep's 3g. I'm indoors and cannot get a fix with the standard setup. Outdoors I usually get a fix within a minute or so. I will report if this improves my experience later this evening.
Thank you for sharing this.
no feed bscks
With admitted limited use, I would tend to confirm reduced lag. I was not able to get locks indoors at home or at work either with or without the cab installed so no improvement there. The lag reduction alone makes the cab worthy of install however, as I must also admit to seeing no ill/adverse effects from the install. Thanks for the heads up.
aadadams said:
With admitted limited use, I would tend to confirm reduced lag. I was not able to get locks indoors at home or at work either with or without the cab installed so no improvement there. The lag reduction alone makes the cab worthy of install however, as I must also admit to seeing no ill/adverse effects from the install. Thanks for the heads up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the cab does only help in speed lock of gps , would not help at places where you are not exposed to open space to get sat signals also depends on radio as well, i am residing at place where i do not get a proper signal...can't expect gps to work.
Does it also reduce lag or was that my imagination? I didn't think it could do anything for signal, but I know many woould like to see an answer to that question. Thanks again for making us aware.
Well I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but you do realize that both 5.08 and the new 5.10 Raphael drivers have already addressed the lock-on/aGPS issues, right ????
All you need is a newer radio, and those new drivers. Any ROM here on XDA has those drivers implemented by now.
This file/reg tweaks are really only useful if you're still running the stock ROM. In which case, how much use are you REALLY getting out of XDA ????
In any case, this fix is for stock ROM's. if you're running NATF, or Energy, or ROMeo's, or Da_G's custom ROMS, the fix for this has already been done, on the HTC side.
I'm running 6.5, and since aGPS is actually working, I'm getting locks in under 15 secs, in under 5 if I'm already connected to the internet.
mexiken said:
This file/reg tweaks are really only useful if you're still running the stock ROM. In which case, how much use are you REALLY getting out of XDA ????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want to get into any theological debate over the good and evil of it, but there's a lot of people who, for various reasons, are stuck using the stock roms or they are too fearful of flashing.
Just an example, a buddy of mine works for AT&T. One of AT&T's policies (like every other major carrier) is to hand out different handsets to the employees so that they can become familiar with them. Next month he's supposed to sample the Fuze. These types of fixes will actually be pretty useful to him for the purpose of making the fuze realistically functional.
speed_pour said:
I don't want to get into any theological debate over the good and evil of it, but there's a lot of people who, for various reasons, are stuck using the stock roms or they are too fearful of flashing.
Just an example, a buddy of mine works for AT&T. One of AT&T's policies (like every other major carrier) is to hand out different handsets to the employees so that they can become familiar with them. Next month he's supposed to sample the Fuze. These types of fixes will actually be pretty useful to him for the purpose of making the fuze realistically functional.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where you're coming from. However, most of XDA's fame and notoriety came from ROM's. Nowadays, it has fixes/updates to things, but at its core, its a place for custom ROMs for HTC phones.
BTW, I should have clarified. AT&T released an official, updated ROM for the Fuze. It, among other things, addressed this issue. So if someone is scared to run a custom ROM, they can always just flash to the official update, and still, problem solved with aGPS.
I have worked for AT&T, so I now the specific program you're referring to. By now, all Fuze's should be shipped with latest update. And even if not, its not very hard to flash to something he likes, and then flash it all back to stock when he needs to turn it in....
And btw, not every carrier does that. At least, not the one I work for now....
mexiken said:
BTW, I should have clarified. AT&T released an official, updated ROM for the Fuze. It, among other things, addressed this issue. So if someone is scared to run a custom ROM, they can always just flash to the official update, and still, problem solved with aGPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may be mistaken, as I only spent a few minutes looking, but I can't find an officially released rom update for the Fuze anywhere on HTC or AT&T's site. AT&T's support FAQ claims there's no updates yet. Assuming these sites aren't misrepresenting the facts, I'm pretty sure you're mistaking the firmware update with the Leaked version here: A-GPS works in 5.08 leaked AT&T ROM. Keep in mind, that version leaked less than 6 weeks ago and AT&T is famously slow to release.
You're picking at exactly the point I said I didn't want to get into, that we shouldn't be discussing "To Flash or Not To Flash". Fact is that there's some people who can't...or won't...flash their phones, but installing a cab that notably improves GPS performance with minimal (at this point, virtually zero) risk is surely good for them. There's no reason to knock a good solution if it exists. My point is, XDA isn't just about the latest ROMs, and from the reading I've been doing on here for the last couple of years, I don't believe it's ever been just about the roms.
I'd be willing to bet there's going to be a fair number of people getting use out of this fix. Nearly 300 downloads in just the last 3 days, I suspect at least 10% of those downloaders are getting a lot out of XDA without using a custom rom. In other words, cut these guys some slack, they're doing good work even if it doesn't apply to the majority.
Hi krish_nank
This cab works well with my rom : ROMeOS v.1.95.1 WWE.
Regards,
PB
speed_pour and mexiken stay on topic please.
if you both want to discuss certain things that don't concern the meaning of this thread please pm each other or do it on the msn.
you both have installed the cab? if yes, what are the experiences?
thanks and regards
pabcb said:
Hi krish_nank
This cab works well with my rom : ROMeOS v.1.95.1 WWE.
Regards,
PB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
in which way did it worked well? i know it is for faster gps locks.
But can you be more concrete?
thanks
I dont suppose this also corrects the gps satellite bars for signal not showing does it ?
(IE TomTom , Igo , and a few others dont report the signal strength )
Thanks Much
GSM Raphael owners take note!
pretty funny. Also a good indication of the subjectivity of this problem and the power of the "placebo effect".
Sorry to say, but this cab really doesn't do anything. It sets pollinterval to 500 which is below the 1 second chip update capability. Da_G demonstrated the ineffectiveness of this. Pollinterval should be 1000. Also this cab sets the logs to 32, another setting that has been proven ineffective.
To fix the missing satellite display, TomTom must be upgraded to v7.910.9185.
There is an AT&T test ROM underlying acquisition time fixes to the GPS system. This correctly enables AGPS resulting in consistent 15 second lock times. It has no effect on position lag.
If you really want to understand GPS issues you must patiently read through the entire mammoth thread located in the raphael forum titled "touchpro GPS lag problems". Switch to the forum and sort by views. It is one of the most viewed threads there. It describes in great detail the various GPS issues starting on about post 300. Videos and real cabs containing tested tweaks are there too.
Here is your quiz. Once finished reading you will be able to easily understand and differentiate between these:
what is position lag?
what is speed lag?
what is a cold start, warm start, hot start?
what is ephemeris and how does AGPS affect this?
how does AGPS differ from QuickGPS?
Why does AGPS have no effect on either lags?
More importantly, you will understand exactly what you need to do to turn your Raphael into one of the absolute best handheld GPS devices out there.
Or, you could just load one of the fixed ROMs and run TomTom v7.910.9185 (yes, position lag is partially based on the navigator you are using)
Sleuth255 said:
pretty funny. Also a good indication of the subjectivity of this problem and the power of the "placebo effect".
Sorry to say, but this cab really doesn't do anything. It sets pollinterval to 500 which is below the 1 second chip update capability. Da_G demonstrated the ineffectiveness of this. Pollinterval should be 1000. Also this cab sets the logs to 32, another setting that has been proven ineffective.
To fix the missing satellite display, TomTom must be upgraded to v7.910.9185.
There is an AT&T test ROM underlying acquisition time fixes to the GPS system. This correctly enables AGPS resulting in consistent 15 second lock times. It has no effect on position lag.
If you really want to understand GPS issues you must patiently read through the entire mammoth thread located in the raphael forum titled "touchpro GPS lag problems". Switch to the forum and sort by views. It is one of the most viewed threads there. It describes in great detail the various GPS issues starting on about post 300. Videos and real cabs containing tested tweaks are there too.
Here is your quiz. Once finished reading you will be able to easily understand and differentiate between these:
what is position lag?
what is speed lag?
what is a cold start, warm start, hot start?
what is ephemeris and how does AGPS affect this?
how does AGPS differ from QuickGPS?
Why does AGPS have no effect on either lags?
More importantly, you will understand exactly what you need to do to turn your Raphael into one of the absolute best handheld GPS devices out there.
Or, you could just load one of the fixed ROMs and run TomTom v7.910.9185 (yes, position lag is partially based on the navigator you are using)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Sir, May be i was wrong as i am not a technically sound person about the mobile working.....if you really believe this cab doesn't have helped any one or doesn't help any way....please close the thread.....once it is done i will delete the cab too. I don't want to waste many people time & useless long thread with out working fix.........
By the way it is been mentioned that this cab act as an tweak to get quick satellite fix not to correct a lagging problem ....
Please close this thread if possible or delete the thread itself Thank you
Hi Krish,
in the right corner of each post there's a red white triangle.
If you click on that then the mods know that you want to close the thread but use it only for:
Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.
each forum has his own moderators contact one of them who are availiable
So, new to this game, but a reasonably good tech head by trade. I didn't see any information outlining the differences between the available GTab ROMs in an apples to apples sort of way. Does anything like that exist currently? If not, is this something the community would be interested in brainstorming in a Google Doc or something? I'm happy to get things rolling if so.
Okay, so, this might be stupid, or a total waste of time, but what the heck:
https(colon,slash,slash)spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8YYie-Ky7kdDNQRG8zN09xYnQ2NTVvOXY1ZTFtMXc&hl=en&authkey=CJC3j5oC
I went ahead and started working up a spreadsheet. Feel free to go in and start editing, adding important features, correcting, or whatever else. If someone else has beaten me to this, just say so.
I actually think it is an awesome idea and should help a lot of people decide what ROM they want to use. I have had my GTab since Christmas and have flashed mine over 20 times. I have tried all of the ROMs available on these forums multiple times and I don't think I would have needed to if a spreadsheet like this was in place earlier.
Okay, I think I seeded the spreadsheet with as much information as I can based on the various ROM threads. It'll be up to the community to help fill in some of the remaining gaps and such. And feel free to add in new feature checkpoints as well that users would find relevant. I'll keep curating the document to keep it consistent, and will fill in more once I actually have my G-Tablet in hand.
Features, add features that we could us, so those of us who want a rom that performs the tasks we want can see which one best suits us.
just some egs
bluetooth gps support
usb gps support (dont think this will be possible till hc is availabe)
usb g3 support
proxy support
external or bt keyboard and mouse support
.....
TheQuicksilver said:
Okay, so, this might be stupid, or a total waste of time, but what the heck:
https(colon,slash,slash)spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8YYie-Ky7kdDNQRG8zN09xYnQ2NTVvOXY1ZTFtMXc&hl=en&authkey=CJC3j5oC
I went ahead and started working up a spreadsheet. Feel free to go in and start editing, adding important features, correcting, or whatever else. If someone else has beaten me to this, just say so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neither stupid nor a waste of time: I have been wanting to do something similar for a while - decide what/whether to upgrade my TNTLite 2.2 install to, I just haven't found the time or energy.
Your spreadsheet is very helpful. You should start a thread for it in the 'G Tablet Android Development' forum and see if you can get it stickied: I'll bet a LOT of other people will find it useful too. Maybe the various developers will chime in and help you fill in the blanks.
*thumbs up!*
I for one thank you for your time and effort. I am waiting on my Gtab to be delivered and am trying to decide which ROM to use. With this spreadsheet I can see the pros/cons of the major players at a glance. I think I will go with Vega.
Tt
Icedvoco said:
Features, add features that we could us, so those of us who want a rom that performs the tasks we want can see which one best suits us.
just some egs
bluetooth gps support
usb gps support (dont think this will be possible till hc is availabe)
usb g3 support
proxy support
external or bt keyboard and mouse support
.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tossed some extra fields in for those requests.
999pings, thanks, I'll start a second thread once I have the requisite posts to do so in the Developer forum. I was sort of torn what the right place was to post this to begin with. Mods, feel free to merge the threads if necessary once I get the second one going.
Yeah thanks this would be helpful. It's always easier to have a side-by-side comparison than having to read through a long list of change logs and hundreds of pages of comments on what works and what doesn't. I too am waiting for my tablet to come in the mail and deciding which ROM to go with. I was basing my decision on popularity and that award going to TnT based on thread activity. Of course that doesn't always mean it's the best choice. I'd like to see this spreadsheet take shape in the next few days or so
Perhaps you can model yours after one that SimonNWalker here at XDA did:
http://db.androidspin.com/androidspin_release_matrix.asp
Something along those lines would be nice once I have the data put together from everyone. Likewise, it'd be nice to find a wiki for it to live on, some place that it could continue to be maintained over time. Ideally something like this can take off in a way that it wouldn't need me (or any single person) to constantly curate it.
TheQuicksilver said:
Likewise, it'd be nice to find a wiki for it to live on, some place that it could continue to be maintained over time. Ideally something like this can take off in a way that it wouldn't need me (or any single person) to constantly curate it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know much about it, but there is Wiki functionality within XDA if this gains popularity. The spreadsheet/chart can definitely grow over time especially when Honeycomb comes out. There will be many more flavors of ROMs being released.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Dave615 said:
I don't know much about it, but there is Wiki functionality within XDA if this gains popularity. The spreadsheet/chart can definitely grow over time especially when Honeycomb comes out. There will be many more flavors of ROMs being released.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, fantastic. That'll do great. I'll check into porting the stuff over to that once things fill in. Loves me some wiki action.
g1no23 said:
I actually think it is an awesome idea and should help a lot of people decide what ROM they want to use. I have had my GTab since Christmas and have flashed mine over 20 times. I have tried all of the ROMs available on these forums multiple times and I don't think I would have needed to if a spreadsheet like this was in place earlier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, excellent idea. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
I was about to embark upon getting VPN access working using TNTLite, now I know that I can switch to Vegan if it gets too complicated.
Here is the link since I thing the OP could not post it up
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...NTVvOXY1ZTFtMXc&hl=en&authkey= CJC3j5oC#gid=0
copc said:
Here is the link since I thing the OP could not post it up
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...NTVvOXY1ZTFtMXc&hl=en&authkey= CJC3j5oC#gid=0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, thanks. Forums require a minimum of 8 posts to include links. I just joined, so had to fake it a little, heh.
Thankyou TheQuicksilver!!
Sticky??
I suggest adding a column for stock TNT, and maybe even 1 for stock+enhancement?
That would be helpful for those trying to decide to stay stock or not.
Jim
TheQuicksilver said:
Okay, so, this might be stupid, or a total waste of time, but what the heck:
https(colon,slash,slash)spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Au8YYie-Ky7kdDNQRG8zN09xYnQ2NTVvOXY1ZTFtMXc&hl=en&authkey=CJC3j5oC
I went ahead and started working up a spreadsheet. Feel free to go in and start editing, adding important features, correcting, or whatever else. If someone else has beaten me to this, just say so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Brand new to the GTab.. Picking a ROM and rooting tonight. This resource helps immensely! Thanks!
Just wanted to say thanks for this. This would be great to have as a "sticky" so we don't have to search for it, and for new owners to see at the top of the page.
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
Haven't seen the Mean and Clean rom threads, I take it
Very useful post, thank you so much. We all appreciate your incredible insight onto the subject.
Disregard this post.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please tell me your kidding...
Lol kernel source means alot more than OC on current builds
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have time to sit and type out everything the kernel does, and how it can improve performance drastically ,( without OC) but I do have time to say that your info is wrong and I'd recommend researching quite a bit more.
Luthien1 said:
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh, yes we know this. Complain to HTC not us please. Thanks. Not trying to troll but this was pointless
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have to be joking??!!!!
sgt. slaughter said:
You have to be joking??!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol I think he is confusing modems with kernels hahahahaha
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC
there are some, including myself and leedroid for example who actually enhance the phone experience
my kernels for example: i dont really OC either - i run everything at mfg spec
--> some features may need additional support from the rom
1) better battery life
2) way better audio quality (in both aosp and sense, with or without beats) . (suck it apple)
3) 48khz/24bit 2 channel audio over bluetooth
4) gpu enahncements
5) ntfs support (see #7 below)
6) vpn and wifi dialing support
7) usb host mode support - support for external usb keyboards, and storage devices, upto 4TB in size)
8) sql enahncements
9) 100% beats sound drivers over AUX, BT, and internal speaker
10) +mA over MHL/HDMI (only on some devices - due to differences in hardware)
11) extended wifi range, with faster xfer rates
12) faster charge rates, even when using pc usb port
13) CIFS access to windows server file shares
and last, but not least - but most important
14) my kernel was the 1st (and still the only as of the time of this post, per XDA member feedback) shooter kernel to make 4.0.3 fast enough to even be usable and provide 100% 2d and 3d gpu hardware acceleration
14a) i had the 1st ICS kernel on the shooter to have working: hw accel, bluetooth, usb disk drive mode support, multitouch, and wifi. --- yes THE FIRST KERNEL for 4.0.1 to offer that
as far as htc releasing source - all i need is their updated GPU code
i got camera 100% stable on 2.17 roms without ANY SOURCE to work from - all the remaining issues are gpu related
..these are just the major changes - good luck getting any ONE of these on a stock kernel
chad.goodman said:
with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC
there are some, including myself and leedroid for example who actually enhance the phone experience
my kernels for example: i dont really OC either - i run everything at mfg spec
--> some features may need additional support from the rom
1) better battery life
2) way better audio quality (in both aosp and sense, with or without beats) . (suck it apple)
3) 48khz/24bit 2 channel audio over bluetooth
4) gpu enahncements
5) ntfs support (see #7 below)
6) vpn and wifi dialing support
7) usb host mode support - support for external usb keyboards, and storage devices, upto 4TB in size)
8) sql enahncements
9) 100% beats sound drivers over AUX, BT, and internal speaker
10) +mA over MHL/HDMI (only on some devices - due to differences in hardware)
11) extended wifi range, with faster xfer rates
12) faster charge rates, even when using pc usb port
13) CIFS access to windows server file shares
and last, but not least - but most important
14) my kernel was the 1st (and still the only as of the time of this post, per XDA member feedback) shooter kernel to make 4.0.3 fast enough to even be usable and provide 100% 2d and 3d gpu hardware acceleration
14a) i had the 1st ICS kernel on the shooter to have working: hw accel, bluetooth, usb disk drive mode support, multitouch, and wifi. --- yes THE FIRST KERNEL for 4.0.1 to offer that
as far as htc releasing source - all i need is their updated GPU code
i got camera 100% stable on 2.17 roms without ANY SOURCE to work from - all the remaining issues are gpu related
..these are just the major changes - good luck getting any ONE of these on a stock kernel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm new to the 3D forums but this is the best post I've seen here yet. Thank you
Luthien1 said:
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your disrespect. It's noted.
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is one of the most ignorant posts i have ever read, and I deal with ignorant posts on a daily basis. You know why there aren't as many kernel devs as "rom" devs? Because you actually have to write code to make a kernel. There are thousands of rom chefs because someone did the hard work for them and made a kitchen. You plug in the rom, do a couple things and you have a rom. Kernel devs spend hours upon hours sometimes just trying to get a phone to boot. For a lot of times the least amount of respect, because you can't visibly see their work a lot of the time. Do some freaking research before you make ignorant claims about things you don't know.
I'm sorry for the rant, but this post just made me angry.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
So much anger from one little post.. Ha.
If you read my post, you will see that I said "Typically, kernels mean NOTHING". Chad basically confirms this in his post right at the beginning: "with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC". He then went on to give examples of how GOOD kernel devs add things to their kernels to make them better. Chad is an example of a good dev. He will work hard to put all of those things in that help people.
But I hate to have to say this: you can only change so much about something without making it mostly your own. Chad is an example of someone who puts tons of work into his kernels, which makes the kernel a special one.
Note that I did not say "All kernels are useless, you shouldn't bother with custom kernels." Why didn't I say that? Because I don't believe it. There are special kernels out there.
But take a look at this. It isn't completely applicable to the argument at hand, but it is a cohesive study put on by an XDA member using various Nexus S kernels. As you will see, there are not tons of differences in performance scores, besides a few exceptions.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AntDDKv-lS6IdFZ6VDRQV0cxRXFVT2dKYm94bWJyQ0E#gid=0
Please, do not jump on me because you mistook what I said as a personal attack against developers like Chad that make quality kernels. OP was blaming a lack of kernel source as a cause of "sucky" development. Development isn't at a standstill at all. That was what my post was responding to. If you actually put the time in to understand the words there instead of getting angry because it looked like an attack, you'll see what I meant. The list of improvements that kernel source that Chad posted is fine and dandy and all, but those are things that are added to the development process that most users don't realize are present, nor do they clamor for such features to be added to kernels. The good developers know what those different things do, and since they want to release a quality kernel, they add those things to their work.
Not having those things isn't hindering development. I don't like to say this, but to the typical end user those additions don't mean anything if their phone doesn't run faster. Those features can be added in and people will just say "awesome kernel, so smooth and my battery can last longer now!" without ever really knowing what it is that's causing that (it also doesn't help that a lot of developers don't have detailed changelogs, and instead say things like "Optimized some stuff so that battery is better").
In summation, I'm not attacking kernel devs or saying that their work is useless. I'm saying that the brunt of the work put into kernels that are released doesn't exactly advance development a terrible amount. They offer extra features on top of already developed ones, like better performance, battery life, sound, and etc., as Chad said. But to say that development sucks because the newest base doesn't have kernel source available for it, when a very small amount of people are interested in Sense 3.0 on top of GB anymore, is just folly and I felt the need to say something about it. I'm sorry for the people that I rubbed the wrong way, and I didn't mean anything bad towards any developers.
And also, on a second look to my first post, I should have added that kernels typically don't mean much to the overall DEVELOPMENT process. Except in cases where a kernel is necessary to fix things, a lot of the development in porting and such doesn't rely heavily on a feature filled kernel.
SoraX64 said:
So much anger from one little post.. Ha.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I apologize for the rant and the anger was more directed at the op than at you. However even after walking away and coming back the tone of your post to me was still slightly disrespectful. Not as much as when I first read it, but I don't believe I am the only one who took it that way. I'm not going to argue about it, I've said my peace, and am moving on, if you didn't mean for it sound like it was taken then the interpretation was lost.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
just wanted to add (a small venting session) - i spend hours - just on camera for 2.17 alone, over 200 - and i read msgs like post 3 ???
camera on 2.17 based roms - any kernel but htc stock (prior to my newer ones) - app FCed - wouldnt take pics at all
my newer kenrels - with no source to work from - take pics, and damn good ones
cost: about 200 hours of work, headaches, and family issues - but it got done
why are my kernels private? and not released to the public...under GPL i do not need to release source to the public if i dont release a kernel to the public - and last time i did something like this, i got kanged, and others took credit, or gave credit to another developer who in fact released weeks after me - AND STILL REPORTED ME FOR GPL VIOLATIONS when i was in fact 100% compliant
just because you all cant find my GIT repos dont mean they dont exist - every one of my kernels, even the private ones are either on github, or code.google.com - and they ALL have TIMESTAMPS of my commits and people still wanted to say i kanged others (who dont have 1/2 the features as me - and who commited WEEKS (not days or hours, but full weeks) after me.. this is why as of right now - i have no kernel thread in the 3d section of xda - but i do have threads in other sections of xda, where people are more grateful for what is GIVEN TO THEM FOR FREE - and yes, there is a GIT repo for the other kernel just as there was for the kernels i had in this forum - that was available to all users (just with beats and intellianthrax removed)
now people are on ME (not htc - but me) for source... my newer kernels are not public
so if EVERYONE who has went after me or made threats to go after me for GPL actually went after htc - they would be posting updates sooner
and adding
1st kernel to NOT have BSOD on incomming calls for shooter
i did a lot of things FIRST and i got the GIT COMMIT timestamps to prove it
one last vent
$3000 for 1st court case re: nda violation and to fight C&D - i won - but i still had to pay $3000 for a legal retainer
*drama on XDA caused owners of the NDA to reconsider their agreement and revoke it.
to date: $300 for threats someone on XDA made against me re: GPL when in fact the kernels they reported (or made threats to report) had a public git repo - and the person(s) reporting was given a link in public forum to the repo, as well as screen shots of said git repo... he/she/they/robert wilson (hotaru) still reported me (or made public threats to report me)
in order to protect myself, i did consult with a attorney - and if the asswipe did actually report me to gpl-violations - i know i will win the case, but thats another $3000 in fees im stuck with
so
$3300 to date in legal fees paid
200 hours just for 2.17 camera to work
wow.... how ungrateful some people could be
pstevep said:
I apologize for the rant and the anger was more directed at the op than at you. However even after walking away and coming back the tone of your post to me was still slightly disrespectful. Not as much as when I first read it, but I don't believe I am the only one who took it that way. I'm not going to argue about it, I've said my peace, and am moving on, if you didn't mean for it sound like it was taken then the interpretation was lost.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
SoraX64 said:
I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
i put hours upon hours into this - then cause of peoples actions on XDA - i end up putting money into it as well - then to read posts like this is very upsetting
fact is - people are given something they can choose to use (or not use) - they see you can do things no one else has ever done on xda at all for any device PERIOD (and XDA is a huge community with 1000s of developers) - they wanna kang you, when they cant - they cause u legal issues
to be clear - never did i say i was the best - and i know im not
...when it comes to understanding kernels for these phones (or any phone), Ziggy prolly knows WAY MORE than me
--my skill set is around C in general, I coded in C, C++, COBOL, and RPG-IV for over 5 years for the government (and code i had access to)
now when it comes to closed source IBM mainframe (s/390-zSeries) and midrange (as/400-iSeries) kernels -- its on
just look at the features, (and stability) i got working and compare it to ANY kernel on XDA for ANY device - and take into account user's feedback - most (not some - but most) users on my kernels get ZERO random reboots, lock ups, freezes, etc - this includes RDs who pushed my kernel to their phones limit with the intent to cause a reboot
SoraX64 said:
I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No worries. My 3 year old was losing his mind while I was responding the first time. Which is why I was more aggressive, well that and I'm just sick of some of the crap here. Some of the stuff we as users put devs through is ludicrous. And it's time for it to change.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
chad.goodman said:
i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hopefully, here soon, the shooter trolls will start to disperse.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
chad.goodman said:
i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
XDA is (as far as I know) the biggest Android development site around. Anyone who asks about development is sent to here. That attracts a lot of assholes (like myself. ) and the like. Seems this phone got unlucky and we've got a bunch of drama queens here.
Such a shame, because of the potential this phone has. I hate seeing morons chasing away devs and then complaining of a lack of development. It makes me wish we could take all of the good users and migrate to Rootzwiki. Much better site overall, because it is less popular. But the idiots would follow there as well.
With the way the community treats devs and generally acts stupidly, I worry that we will soon see days where everything is released over IRC instead of forums. Which might actually work, if you think about it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
people, including my family, ask me WHY i do this, why i spend hours making kernels
i make them for my personal phone - i want the best on my phone - the best sound, the best performance, the best battery life (yes battery life AND performance)
why do i share? knowing it has already cost me over $3000
well - a great man once told me
-turn rage into hope
-turn hate into hope
but come $6000 in legal fees - you all wont see me again on XDA as a developer - ever
all i EXPECT is people to be thankful, respectful, and civil - nothing more, nothing less
and i know im not the only developer that left the shooter forums due to drama here at xda - a lot of great developers left
(ziggy, the rcmix kernel dude for example)
Apparently increases the speed of the device by simply blocking on read of /dev/random...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1987032&nocache=1
i am!
According to this it doesn't work on ICS or higher
https://pay.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/15w1qi/fix_90_of_lags_in_android_needs_root/
orangechoochoo said:
According to this it doesn't work on ICS or higher
https://pay.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/15w1qi/fix_90_of_lags_in_android_needs_root/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, according to this, it does:
"Update!
Version 1.1 attached. This version uses the release signature, so you will need to uninstall the old XDA version first!
This version fixes the issue some users were seeing on later Jellybean ROMs, where the UI would misreport the RNG service status.
Note that this APK is actually compatible with all Android versions, and all (armel) devices. It's not at all specific to the Captivate Glide.'
This was in the link. The OP from this link wrote that^
http://www.xda-developers.com/android/entropy-seed-generator-not-all-its-hacked-up-to-be/
IDK, it would be nice if it's true. Maybe someone with a DNA can give it a shot.
I've been running it for a few days, no real benefit. I thought it was working better at first but I'm pretty sure after a few days that it was just placebo.
How was your battery life?
Only the older member will remember this...
<AncientMemory>
Reminds me of the days when people would run 386to486.exe and claimed it was making their crappy 386 run faster. It was just a simple program that would sleep and spit some text out saying it was improving your computer while not doing anything at all, but people swore their system was faster!
</AncientMemory>