Just wondering. If and when we get custom rom's (fingers crossed for cyanogenmod) how are we going to deal with playing the HD content we've come to love on the archos'? (Hell, its pretty much the only thing it can do without struggling it seems). As the video player is archos code.. hopefully can pull it out of rom without problem when have full root. But if not its a bit of a drag as I haven't found any other player on android which plays as much and as well as the archos one.
Does the source code which was released earlier Contain the code to get hdmi-out/video player stuff? I'm guessing not
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
They can just leave it in the ROM right? I mean I don't think they will be writing them from scratch. Just modifying the existing roms.
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
thefunkygibbon said:
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
thefunkygibbon said:
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
the performance of the system on certain hardware is nothing to do with googles comment. they said that in relation to the user experience/app compatibility/screen scaling side of things. covering their own ass with the plethora of tablets coming out and wanting to distance itself from the responsibility that joe public will assume they should have (when, rightly so, its not)
as for the phone network/gps etc they are the arbitary "minimum specs" that google set out to govern what devices would be allowed to use the google marketplace and other built in google apps. again it is just a way of trying to gain some form of quality control with the amount of people creating android based systems on crap hardware.
google dont "support" them anyway. its open source.
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
digibucc said:
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ummmm ok
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
digibucc said:
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
REAVER117 said:
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Per /proc/cpuinfo it should actually be a 3630-1000, same as the Droid X (amongst others).
JasonOT said:
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so i just take your word for it instead?
how often do programmers re-write something that has already been done, from scratch? i'm not saying it doesn't happen - i'm saying far more often code gets recycled. if something is already made, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
and thank you for your primary, secondary and tertiary sources - as well as your enlightening explanation of what is true.
i can accept when I am wrong, but not just because some random person on the internet tells me I am, with nothing to prove his point any more than my own.
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
chulri said:
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
digibucc said:
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you being obtuse for a reason?
A device made to run android by Archos, and comes booting ONLY Android OS by default... is being said as not being made to run android....
Smells like trolling to me.
Maybe people just like to troll for no reason, blazingwolf.
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
digibucc said:
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. "it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it."
It's running the same CPU/GPU SOC as the Droid X with half the RAM. It has a capacitive display. The only real difference is the resolution of the display and lack of cellular radio. That's a far cry from what you wrote.
If it were, say, Android running on an old PowerPC CPU, you'd be correct.
2. "android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network."
Uhh, no. There's no reason Android needs a mobile network.
3. "it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen."
While true, it's rather irrelevant. And the statement that followed it...
4. " those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps"
...is completely wrong.
For starters, the majority of people aren't having problems with non-Archos apps. Secondly, the majority of people having problems, are having problems due to Archos' distribution of Froyo. Those that stayed with 2.1 aren't having nearly as many problems.
Yes, a small handful of apps don't work well due to the increased resolution. A small handful of apps will only cover a portion of the display. Note that they are a small handful. The vast vast majority of Android apps work perfectly well on the Archos tabs.
5. "Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too."
"Not made for them" is, again, a far cry from the truth. Not designed with tablets in mind, or even not optimized, is more like it. Like thefunkygibbon already told you, Google making those comments was strictly to cover their own asses when people get upset that they can't play games like Guitar Hero -- that represent maybe 5% of all apps -- because they aren't well coded and cannot scale to greater resolutions.
You've made a mountain out of a moehill, and the 7 links you just posted support this notion. So yes, obtuse and/or trolling are both justified descriptions of your Chicken Little act.
It's true its not made for tablets. It will work on them, but it was made with phones in mind. In other words, its a matter of the thought behind the software. What it is catered to. Its mostly the little things. Icon spacing on the default home page. Lots of little things. If they didn't make that statement they would get slammed about all of those little things. Its not really a hardware issue, more of a functionality and UI issue.
Related
Is it possible to flash a Blackberry and change its crappy OS for an Android ROM? I mean, the Blackberry Bold is a great piece of hardware and it could be a great device if it would be possible to run Android on it.
Any brilliant ROM cooker from XDA tried this already or thinking about trying it? There was a rumor about Android on BB...
Thank you.
hgrimberg said:
Is it possible to flash a Blackberry and change its crappy OS for an Android ROM? I mean, the Blackberry Bold is a great piece of hardware and it could be a great device if it would be possible to run Android on it.
Any brilliant ROM cooker from XDA tried this already or thinking about trying it? There was a rumor about Android on BB...
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RIM doesn't make their hardware drivers available, so you would be in for a major reverse-engineering effort to make this work.
maybe some RIM's hardware drivers are already filtered somewhere...
hgrimberg said:
maybe some RIM's hardware drivers are already filtered somewhere...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No doubt *some* are, but you're going to be missing the majority of things needed to make the thing really work.
In my opinion, you're looking at HUNDREDS (if you're REALLY lucky and 99.9% of the drivers are already there..) or THOUSANDS of man-hours (tens of thousands most likely) to develop the thing to a usable state, so if you are working on it on your own, just think about the value of your time-- if you make a meager $10/hr, then its only 50 hours to get the best top notch android device out there, saving yourself $10000+ worth of time -- and even the worst android hardware (not counting sciphone, of course) is better than the best RIM hardware (that 9000 you mentioned -- 128MB ram/128MB flash, no touch screen, crap 2MP camera, crap keyboard that requires little-girl fingers, etc.).
lbcoder said:
No doubt *some* are, but you're going to be missing the majority of things needed to make the thing really work.
In my opinion, you're looking at HUNDREDS (if you're REALLY lucky and 99.9% of the drivers are already there..) or THOUSANDS of man-hours (tens of thousands most likely) to develop the thing to a usable state, so if you are working on it on your own, just think about the value of your time-- if you make a meager $10/hr, then its only 50 hours to get the best top notch android device out there, saving yourself $10000+ worth of time -- and even the worst android hardware (not counting sciphone, of course) is better than the best RIM hardware (that 9000 you mentioned -- 128MB ram/128MB flash, no touch screen, crap 2MP camera, crap keyboard that requires little-girl fingers, etc.).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Little girl fingers, thats some funny but true stuff.
lbcoder said:
In my opinion, you're looking at HUNDREDS (if you're REALLY lucky and 99.9% of the drivers are already there..) or THOUSANDS of man-hours (tens of thousands most likely) to develop the thing to a usable state, so if you are working on it on your own, just think about the value of your time-- if you make a meager $10/hr, then its only 50 hours to get the best top notch android device out there, saving yourself $10000+ worth of time -- and even the worst android hardware (not counting sciphone, of course) is better than the best RIM hardware (that 9000 you mentioned -- 128MB ram/128MB flash, no touch screen, crap 2MP camera, crap keyboard that requires little-girl fingers, etc.).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love to have that as a sticky for everyone that asks can "insert phone name here" run andoird?! Of course with a slight edit for the phone manufacture in.
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
As far as I can tell, without any objective numbers comparing root performance, a lot of this rooting fad raves could just be subjective reported elation about being able to be different.
Granted, originally, the Gtab OS had some flaws. That's old news, get over it. How do the current roots compare with OTA version 3588? I'm somewhat shocked not one of the pack of geeks that have rooted their G tab hasn't backed up their raves with real numbers...
Granted, being rooted to the latest vegan might get access to the full Android market, and perhaps even future updates in Android... However, if I'm finding most of what I want at Amazon Android, is rooting worth the trouble until the roots and android versions stabilize? Show us the NUMBERS...!
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Also, do any of these roots do OTA auto updates or do root updates require a download & re-root? Just asking...
Jesus christ if you can't do a simple search for benchmark tests then I highly suggest getting the ipad2. I hear that the ipad 2 reads your mind so out don't have to do any search. We've only had a kazillion threads on this.
Edit
This is not to mention all the YouTube vids on this people have posted.
Edit again.
Actually, here are a few.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1047098&highlight=benchmark+2011
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12984546&postcount=9
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
Edit again.
I'm serious, I highly suggest the ipad 2 to everyone I talk to. Speaking as someone who repairs computers as a side job, I'm fully aware that most people want to be spoon fed everything, which is why the ipad 2 is the ideal device for most people. If people want to complain about nothing, let apple deal with them.
Thanks for the links.
However, as best as I can tell, they seem to verify that the OTA updated Gtablet is about the same speed as Vegan in the benchmarks when the CPU speeds are similar.
However, do the benchmarks used translate into much of relevance to speed of actually using the tablet to open programs, boot the tablet, download & open web pages. Stuff that people actually do with the tablet... Unless that's what the benchmarks are testing... But that info isn't provided in the links. Again -- weak...
The numbers and detail provided in these links deserve barely more than a C grade, if that... And what they provide seems to be at equal speeds, the current OTA updated gtab OS works fine... As long as you don't need the full Adroid market...
You Tube links? As best as I can tell, not one of them is an objective comparison with the OTA 3588 update gtab. They are just videos of vegan working... As far as real world numbers and comparisons -- Grade D-...
Where are the Grade A numbers? It's not that I don't believe the ROMs are not an improvement, it's just where are the numbers to support these raves?
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
You're not telling us what you want. You said you wanted numbers so I gave you a bunch. Then you say you don't want those numbers. So, I ask again. What do you want?
I'll be brutally honest on this one. Vegan isn't that fast. From all my tests, Calkulin+Clemsyn combo is by far the fastest custom rom+kernel for the gtab.
After trying out everything, I'm back to Calkulin+Clemsyn combo.
Would you like me to make a video of myself openning various programs and post it for you? What do you want?
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
You also have a misconception of what rooting is/does.
To become root in Linux/Android is to gain administrative privileges. In windows root would be called Administrator. Gaining root privileges gives you the ability to change system files and settings, NOTHING MORE. By itself it does nothing.
Now boys...
The fact is that if you need numbers, reports,testimonials or anything else to justify mucking around with the gtab thenyou probably should just get an iPad. Nothing to prove then -everyone "knows" its the best-no numbers needed! The gtab is for people that don't mind the hardware and software quirks as long as they have the freedom to mess around. Its not about the numbers -its about the experience.
[Q] Why should we ..?!
Droofus said:
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am not sure anyone here is trying to sway you in one direction or the others.
Here is how things go in community forums like this one:
- People search for what they got in mind first.
- If they didn't find its either undoable or not that interesting for the community that no one bothered doing it.
- In both case those people are expected to either drop whatever they are wishing for or pursuit it on there own and then share their findings with the community.
In other words, why the heck am I supposed to go beyond whatever benchmarks readily available on the market to show YOU how good/bad are custom firmwares compared to stock ones when :
- custom firmwares are volatile and each couple of days there is a new rom or rom add on or a kernel released (am I supposed to maintain the stats for every single update released ? else how meaningful would be my outdated stats to you? when it represents a ROM that is no longer a candidate)
- the whole flash back and forth and in between roms is a 10~20 minutes process of YOUR time which would suffice to answer all your questions.
If you still need some usability tests (you can use your own stop watch to time through the videos) you might want to check here.
Best of luck,
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this was the best answer.
The information you are demanding is indicating your ignorance. As was already stated rooting does nothing for performance. If you want numbers you can install each rom and test with each kernel setting whatever your heart desires. Its not likely anyone else even cares as most people only care about stability and a lack of lag
Droofus said:
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting itself does nothing other than giving you root - the speed of your device before and after rooting is identical.
Now, if you want to talk about the speeds with or without an overclocked kernel, or with a custom Froyo vs custom Ginger vs stock rom, as others have said there are plenty of posts out there.
Mine lasted on the stock rom for exactly one boot after opening the box - so I could copy on the bits to begin the rooting/custom rom flashing goodness.
cu_ninja said:
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
If I go to a notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards, the various card performances in various games are reviewed. The reviews are very professionally and objectively done with detail. Clicking on any specific card opens a detailed review of that card. This allows users to make decisions based upon what sorts of (graphic game) uses they might actually have.
It seems a similar but much smaller objective set of benchmarks could be performed on the various g tablet roots using a set of common uses in part noted above. It doesn't need to be as elaborate or detailed as the video card review site noted above. Just objectively testing a few simple end user tasks would seem to be adequate to get beyond the subjective raves that one commonly sees about this or that OS change...
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
So is this a religious thread, I see Jesus was mentioned.
Actually sometimes you modders act like it.
I'll get the other times later. Here is the startup time.
Droofus said:
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, while I can see your point, I also have to point out the other side of the argument. I am an engineer. Last year, we got a college graduate who, from the outlook, had all the numbers and credentials. He graduated with almost a perfect gpa. Sounds nice, right? He had all the numbers. The problem was as soon as he began working with us we figured out very quickly that we had a book smart-absolutely no common sense person with us. I swear, he pulled me aside one time and asked me why they were "watering the concrete slabs" in the lab. It got worse from there. I had to explain to him very basic engineering concepts and applications like stirrups, slippage, etc.
This guy actually went through college getting the grades and everything without actually understanding any of it. He graduated with a structural engineering degree without knowing the very simple practical processes of curing concrete or reinforcing footings.
The point is numbers can be deceiving if you ignore annecdotal (aka common sense) evidence. You need both objective numbers and common sense to work in reality. Sure, I've heard plenty of annecdotal nonsense like creationist BS, religious miracles, and homeopathic crap. I'll give you that. But you seem to be on the other extreme side, which is to ignore all personal evidence and place all your bets on pure numbers.
I'm telling you now. We got both the numbers and personal evidence. I'll try to get them for you.
Doofus
I like the list of missing benchmarks you listed. Why don't you measure them and report back?
Droofus said:
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All those numbers are identical before and after rooting your device since nothing changes before and after root, other than you now have root access.
That was easy.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Theres some more random numbers
While watching everyone bash eachother here has its entertainment i have some advice.
Droofus
1 i would recomend not comming into a community forum and bashing people who put a lot of effort into making the product you own better. These people don't get paid for the hours of work they put in.
2 if you don't like how thing are done around here take the time to be a good example and do it better. You clearly have an idea in your head on how to make a professional stastical representation of the roms so do it.
3 what some people are trying to tell you is that it is not all about the numbers. Some people want gingerbread features. Right now all of the gingerbread roms suck for video performance due to driver issues so i don't use them. I like the gingerbread features but i watch videos a lot so i use a froyo rom. Others really care about performance so they give up some stability and overlock.
4 people around here get upset when the same question gets asked over and over again. If you have done some reasearch reference other articles to show that.
5 this is a dual core tablet, what are you doing that you care that much about preformance.
This thing is faster than my netbook.
6 dropping your title on us just makes you sound pretentious. There are a lot of very intellgent successful people here who are not impressed by doctors or your past experience. If you have useful skills to the community don't brag just use them and people will be grateful.
7 people were a little rude about it but they are right. I tell people that if they want something that is easy go buy an ipad or a xoom. If you want something for under 300 then buy a g tab and understand that with some effort it can be great.
Everyone
1 relax... starting flame wars with someone who doesn't know their way around isn't going to help anyone.
I forgot to mention that traditionally us geeks are known for our lack of formal documentation.
P.s. while many of us proudly wear the badge of geek calling us a pack of geeks is a little adversarial.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apollo-update-not-coming-to-current-windows-phones
Not looking too promising eh?
AndyFZ1S said:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apollo-update-not-coming-to-current-windows-phones
Not looking too promising eh?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I smell BS since this "news" is only a day after another "insider" said it was coming to all WP7 devices.
Erik Latranyi said:
I smell BS since this "news" is only a day after another "insider" said it was coming to all WP7 devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/19/2959707/microsoft-developer-evangelist-retracts-mango-apollo
whoops.
Trust nothing and no one until the fat lady sings.....
theguy said:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/19/2959707/microsoft-developer-evangelist-retracts-mango-apollo
whoops.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Verge has become an Android-wh*@# recently. They are hungry for the clicks and hence their anti-Lumia articles. Then they followed it up with anti-Windows Phone and this. I would say, if you own anything but Windows Phone, only then you should read Verge. Their sources always want to be unnamed and always want to be anonymous!
Atleast that dude was filmed and we know him! - I trust what I see. Even if he joked he had balls unlike verge's anonymous people they make up!
drupad2drupad said:
Verge has become an Android-wh*@# recently. They are hungry for the clicks and hence their anti-Lumia articles. Then they followed it up with anti-Windows Phone and this. I would say, if you own anything but Windows Phone, only then you should read Verge. Their sources always want to be unnamed and always want to be anonymous!
Atleast that dude was filmed and we know him! - I trust what I see. Even if he joked he had balls unlike verge's anonymous people they make up!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well that article points out how the guy in the video has retracted what he said in the video. Here's the original link:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/nunos/archive/2012/04/19/my-comments-on-windows-phone.aspx
Imagine all the people that went and got the Lumia and all the money wasted on advertisement only to say.. Nope that phone we threw at you telling you its the best won't see Apollo... Here buy this one instead. Along with the Titan One/Two. Businesses have made stupid mistakes and Microsoft might do another dumb move and spit on your faces.
Only take what comes officially from Microsoft not some websites with no affiliation or some lonely employee.
I am pretty sure none of us will and should get an "Apollo". We clearly don't have specs for that.
However, what we will get is skinned Apollo. We are sure to get all the features of the OS e.g.
1) better multitasking
2) better UI consistancy (if applied)
3) better integration of features (plus additional ones)
4) better or/and faster IE
5) better bluetooth support
These stuff don't need all that extra hardware specs, so we could safely have them.
The rumours of Lumia 610, 800 being tested with Apollo could well be true considering the above could be applied with no extra hardware that comes with Apollo.
Let us keep in mind that Android users are the most ignored for official upgrades (unless you come to XDA).
The article reads like they HOPE MS leaves current hardware behind for Apollo.
Looking at the Tango update and the fact you will be able to send MMS video& ting , As long as we get a few other treats thrown in then I don't think I will be that bothered if I get an Apollo related update or not, TBH I was extremely happy with my HD2 but upgrades and progress lead me over to the Darkside of WP7 and although I suffered from boredom before nodo and see it through to Mango I don't think It will ever be what everyone wants, There will always be a better handset on the horizon and if it turns out MS don't fully deliver then simply change platform.
I too am not bothered about the apollo update if it does not reach the Titan. I too am more than happy with the OS as it stands.
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zel pretty neatly answered this, but I will also add that modern consumer electronics interact with the immediate environment far more than our pcs do. Light sensors, 3g radios, barometers, etc. are far less deterministic than our classic closed-loop pcs. Part of this perception of flux is based on this real flux, for example one of the core features people will discuss is call/modem quality, but driver tweaking vs. actual signal strength is a pretty fuzzy battle for anyone but an electrical/firmware engineer. And just like in the pc world, when you're talking under volting and over clocking your mileage will vary.
If you are methodical and read all the materials, your phone will operate tip top. It seems to me a lot (not all) of the variances often do boil down to the users configuration.
Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
I have fixed a lot of computers and have been flashing custom roms for a year and ill tell you, in my personal opinion, problems are 90% user error. If people would all install properly and wipe everything completely and follow everything they're told to do and read all possible material on what they're flashing they can, a huge portion of the problems would dissapear. But is that gonna happen? I hope so
Heck I make mistakes too. None of us are immune to screwing up right? Good luck all, happy flashing.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Eckyx said:
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
zelendel said:
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to chime in on the Windows thing - we buy a standard build HP computer at work for all developers. But if you put the same Windows disk in two of them and boot and install accepting all the defaults, there will always be slight variations in the way it configures itself between the two. It's probably the hardware detection that does it, but I swear you could get two of the same build lot and you'd STILL get something that didn't set up the same way. Sunspots? Power surge during the process? I dunno, but it does vary
You cant change the disk. Your network adapter has a MAC adress on it... windows will know something has changed. motherboard also has one.
A PC component are not the same at all.
You can buy a good I7 2600k or a bad I7 2600k. There are revisions of the very same model of CPU, memory, everything and its really hard to make 1 equal another.
Another thing is that one smartphone is a lot more delicate piece of hardware and the most important, has limited power to it components.
That makes harder to change anything on it. A small change could lead you to a failure.
just blame it on the ghosts in the machine and be done with it
votinh said:
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not the case. I have tested with two different EVO 4Gs and two different SGS IIs - of the same hardware revision, even.
I performed the same steps to root and ROM both of the sets of phones, and put the same ROM on them. There were no other apps installed, nor themes/addons. I then used each as my phone for a week, making sure that I installed identical apps and even synced app data.
Both performed differently. My i777 is the faster of the two, but my EVO 4G was the slower and more bug-prone.
Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but I at least am convinced. Take it as you will.
Also the phones are made with lower quality checks than desktop. ie I can oc my sgs 1 up to 1.6GHz but uv of -25, the phone well restart. But other people can't go more than 1.2 and cab apply a uv of -150 on the same step.
This is a fact. Think if every phone it's done with high quality checks the price of the device will raise pretty high.
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
sremick said:
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
sremick said:
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
The simple answer is, there is no answer. Its the nature of the process.
I've had one click roms fail the 1st attempt only to succeed the 2nd without even closing the Odin just reconnect the phone.
Either you accept that and have fun with it. Or stick to stock and move on.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
sremick said:
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you're actually wrong because sometimes things CAN go wrong with flashing stuff. And modems in fact do work better in some places than others even though they try to make them universal it is very difficult to do that. Also, if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it? Riddle me that one. Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Ok Here is the thing. I have personally been flashing and making custom roms for phones as far back as the Motorola razor v3. I have multiple phone running the exact same firmware, set up the exact same way and the have run totally differently. If all phone were made equal then there would be no returns due to issues the phone had as they would have all run the same and acted the same as the units that the OEM quality control tested. Lets take the Black Jack 2 as an example. The BJII was a WM phone that would self corrupt the system/media folder. This prevented any ringtones from working and the OS had to be reflashed. All this running on Stock firmware. This didnt happen to all of them, but became a well known glitch to anyone that did cell phone troubleshooting and repair. Did you ever stop to think why OEM and carriers dont use the roms from places like XDA? This is because things here are always under development. There will always be bugs. In the end the developers are making things for their phones and are nice enough to share it for others to use. Some do keep making roms for phones they dont have as this is overly not hard to do. They do this just to be nice. Except for the hardware drivers most of the under lying OS is all the same.
If a dev cant reproduce it then there is no way for them to fix it with the way people tend to report bugs. (The wrong way without the proper info)
Now lets jump to the present. I have 4 phones sitting on my desk. 2 are the HTC Inspire and 2 are the Samsung Captivate. Both running the exact same rom and apps, but guess what. They run very differently. On 1 Inspire and 1 captivate, I can OC to almost double, while the other 2 cant handle more then 1.2 over clock.
One of them also doesnt like the AOSP based software while the others are fine.
As for your backing up and restoring. It can take a long time if you have a TON of apps. Flashing custom roms are not for everyone. If you dont have the time or the want to learn something then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
sremick said:
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with your point about the dev/user relationship. It can get pretty hostile sometimes which is completely unnecessary. Recently, I've been trying to emphasize the respect rule, regardless of who you are. Patience and cooperation can go a long way. And as zelendel said, sometimes people do report stuff the wrong way, but there's no need to be rude about it. Again, patience goes a long way.
Back to the main thing though, I'm not entirely sure how 2 fresh-out-of-the-box phones would work with the same settings and ROMs, but as others said, environmental and external factors can stress the phone and stuff just goes wrong. My phone, for example, would not operate the same as a fresh-out-of-the-box SGS2, even if you put the exact same stuff on it. Stuff just starts freaking out, and I'm pretty sure my phone is having hardware issues :[
It has come to my attention that a few people have been misunderstanding a few recent posts by myself. This is post is to clear the waters up a bit and to explain my position as a developer here on XDA.
As many of you guys know, we're probably the most lively "dead" device on XDA. At least in my opinion that is. We have been through a lot as a community but we still manage to survive. But recently things have been getting a little tense.
I received this device last summer like most of you have. When I got it, I immediately started figuring out how to get CM7 on it. Problem is that it was my first Android phone and with all the ways that Motorola locked it down I had a lot to learn and no time to learn it. After I learned off and on how to get things working on the X2 during the NO free time I had last fall I cranked out a pretty much solid CM7 in a week.
Now for the explanation for CM9/ICS. Most people probably think that since I could crank out CM7 so fast that I would be able to do the same with CM9 and make it just as good and amazing as CM7. Although I had it booted on the first build, it was FULL of errors and the touch screen didn't even work. ICS and CM9 is definitely not as easy as CM7. CM7 was already a year and a half in the making and had most of the problems worked out on all the devices that when it finally came time for us, it would just as smooth as butter as soon as it was booted. CM9 hasn't had time to develop into a "smooth" ROM for most devices; especially non-official like ours. The code for the touchscreen to work wasn't even in CM9 on my first build, for example. The problems for CM9/ICS can be narrowed down to a few things:
Graphics Memory
No Official ICS
Kernel Improvements
Graphics Memory and No Official ICS: Due to the way that ICS handles the way it puts stuff on our screen we run into Video RAM (VRAM) problems on our device. Basically the routines that control it are expecting the memory to be mapped (stored) in a certain way in VRAM. On a device that has ICS officially, this isn't as big as a problem as the proprietary files (props) are coded to respond to those requests and mappings and as such run smoother. If a device doesn't have ICS, most it usually has a similar device in which props can be pulled and ran accordingly.
This is not the case for Tegra 2 phones as no Tegra 2 device has official ICS. In fact the Tegra kernel (just looked this up) is only at 2.6.34-rc3 officially and have a 3.1.10 kernel in developement (Motorola can update it again to .35 if they wish to do so like for the ATRIX). Because of the lack of an official Tegra 2 kernel for Linux 3.X, and likewise the props for such kernel, we can't have props that handle the requests the system is asking for. And even if another phone gets updated, we're locked and stuck, so It doesn't matter either way. This means that VRAM problems will probably always be there and that there is nothing that I can do for it. Best thing I can hope for (and this is slowly making it's way through CM9) is that the code in CM9 is updated to allow us to handle the VRAM differently like in CM7/GB.
Kernel Improvements: The kernel (that's supposed to be) for ICS is 3.0 or higher. This includes changes in memory as stated above, touchscreen handling, device interaction with the kernel and many others. That being said, we don't have those improvements thus causing problems. These include memory as stated above, touchscreen not working (obviously fixed), data usage not working, data monitoring not working, and a few various ways other routines to draw to the screen and handle other things (such as why Chrome is picky). Some of these can be backported (downgraded) to our kernel with mixed results.
Problem is they have to be complied with our kernel and must match the kernel version in every way. That is why the kernel check is in CM7 and CM9. I can slowly work through implementing these routines through drivers known as kernel modules (mods). I have made mods for data usage (with a few issues) and another one (which not sure what it's supposed to do yet). I cannot (as in it's impossible) write them to change the memory handling. If I could even build them the kernel won't let me load them due to routines of same name fighting for control.
Think of it like the phone is a car and you and your friend are in the front (the kernel routines) and you have the exact same name. Meanwhile, you have another friend in the back (the OS). The OS says, "Hey Routines Named the Same, grab the wheel and turn turn left!" You would turn it to your left, but your friend (the other routine) has a different view of what left is and instead wants to go to your right. Obviously some problems arise.
Regarding the Soft Keys Issue: I know a few of you guys are a little upset regrading the fact that I won't add the soft keys in there by default. I have a justifiable reason behind not adding them: our phone already has buttons.
Our phone was designed to have hardware buttons that separate from the screen. Adding more buttons to the screen for buttons that already exist is not advantageous. It also unnecessarily takes up screen space that makes our phone our phone. Now you may be thinking, "Well the GNex has the soft keys on the screen..." You are correct. But the screen itself has actually been extended (as in a non-standard physical height) to accommodate for the soft keys and also has no hardware buttons for the menu and home, etc. In fact! The Nexus S (a still HIGHLY developed for, supported device and previous "Google Phone") doesn't even have the soft keys enabled from the software directly available from Google themselves.
With that being said, XDA user csking33 has made the option of softkeys available to the public should you choose to enable it. He has it working on the current Alpha 4 and I look forward to him getting them working on Alpha 5 when I release it. You can download it here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1727680.
That is just a short (believe me when I say it's short) explanation as to why ICS is just a FUN FUN FUN thing to work with.
Personal Problems (I have a lot): This is not meant to be a whine-a-thon, more of an explanation of why I can't be as dedicated as I'd like to be. I have explained why ICS is a pain, I'm here to give you a brief rundown as to why I (personally) can't just make things work. I am a student studying Aerospace Engineering (not Computer Science or whatever else). It has kept me so insanely busy that I can't even begin to describe how much little time I have. I spend all day at school and all night doing the homework for it. I was lucky (once) when my Flight Structures II homework only took 5 hours to do. With so many long homework assignments and group projects it's a miracle I even survive. Next semester will be worse because now I have to actually design and build a model plane from scratch that does whatever my professors says it has to do. This is includes the whole design, approval process, building, testing, breaking, fixing, getting approved again, get it flown, doing it's mission and presenting our project. All that on top of the homework I have to do.
Whenever I do get free time during the day, I try to spend it with my girlfriend and/or friends or (if it's a few days) I go to visit my family (this weekend I am, for example). Family and friends have always a top priority of mine since forever and I won't let a phone be the reason why I don't see them IF I see them. In fact the donation money you guys have supported me with is going to get new tires for my car before I go visit my family. It has also bought me spare batteries and cables for when I really mess things up.
After all this is said and done, I stay up to 4 am working on the phone so that you guys can have a semi-legitimate Android experience. I do it because I want to and because we as a community deserve it.
It saddens me to know that I'm (essentially) the only one left working on the X2. Others pop their head in every once and awhile to help or to do what they want and that is GREAT. I love it. I'm always more than willing to help others out if they ask. And all they have to do is ask. PM me here on XDA, join me in the IRC or tweet me on Twitter. I'll be sure to get to it eventually.
TL;DR:
CM9/ICS will be unstable for as long as I can see in the future. There is not much I can do.
No I won't enable soft keys, there is no point in a default build. See the post if you wish to enable them.
I'm a really, really busy man but I do what I can. You guys have helped tremendously in supporting my work and helping me live a little easier
Thanks for the explanation. At this point I guess all we can do is hope that someone at Motorola feels sorry for us and leaks us some goodies. I bet with the unlocked goodness ICS would scream on this phone, even with it's less-than-optimal amount of RAM.
I just want to personally thank you for everything you have done with this phone. I still use CM7 as my daily driver and love it despite the Wifi and the root issues and will continue to use it until I say F you to Motorola and get a different phone a little more dev friendly.
You are doing a great job keeping the DX2 afloat. If you can get ICS in this phone you'll have a very bright future ahead of you. I wish you the best of luck but I don't think you need it
I don't know anything about developing, modding or themes and I won't imagine how hard it must be to do what you have done for the DX2. For that and more: Thank You! Im sure we'll be happy to throw a dollar or two your way.. it's the least we can do. :good:
M-
question
you say no tegra2 has i c s
what about xoom?
was just asking in case that could give you done ideas
good luck DZK, keep killing it
I'm glad you came out with this post. I have had this phone since last summer like you and since then I have used both of your ROMs and have followed your work. Mainly because there are not very many developers still developing for this phone. Lol. I think a lot of people needed to hear this. you don't come in here that much and are not very active in the forums. Not that it's your fault or anything. we all know that you're busy. But people are used to regular updates. Even if they are just verbal ones. So when a dev takes their time and no one hears anything, they don't understand. Most of us in here explain your situation when someone comes in here asking about stuff. We are all grateful for what you have given us so far and the things that are coming down the road. Without you there would be no development for this phone. As much as everyone would like to believe, we all know you are not just some guy sitting behind a desk all day working for us. By the sound of it, it looks like school is going to be getting a lot more busy for you which means less updates for us. By the time you get around to developing again for this phone I may have moved on to another. Just want to say again. Thanks :good:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would think this is more for the newcomers here that don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Have you SEEN the kind of things people ask him on twitter? Lol
+1
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda app-developers app
I'm not a dev, but I am a project manager who works very closely with them, on very large scale deployments. Something that has always impressed me about you Bryan, is your prioritization and time management. Knowing where to focus energy in order to achieve maximum result, especially when strapped with limited resources, is a skill not as common as one might think--you've got it in spades.
I guarantee when you enter the work force, it's going to be something that sets you apart from a group of otherwise smart guys. Project managers and directors will LOVE you for that skill set.
That being said, thanks for giving us a portion of a sorely needed resource, it's appreciated.
DK you are the man! Thanks for everything!!! You and nitro saved the x2 without you two the x2 would be crap! Family is always first. Good luck with everything!
---------- Post added at 02:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 AM ----------
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1000
Edit: I can't believe the asterisks...lol
**** whoever said what, ungrateful bastard!
Life first, just include Android in it
You are the miracle maker dragonzkiller, if anyone ever says less keep your head high and **** em...never a need to explain.
Keep doing what your doing, it rocks!!!
Ps sorry bout the language, it's a Jersey thing...lol
DROID DOES, Apple did...like I forgot when
I'm with the others, it's always nice to hear what's what, but you should never have felt it any kind of explanation was owed to us.
Even if you suddenly had to put it all to the side permanently, you'll always have my gratitude.
Droid X2 > Eclipse 2.2.1 > Tapatalk
Cheers DZK!! Thanks for your time which is not owed to anyone. Side projects are good esp. when going into difficult job fields. The distractions are going to be what keeps you going. Best of luck to you!
I do wonder now though if it makes more sense to continue to tweak CM7 than CM9.
jsgraphicart said:
I would think this is more for the newcomers here that don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Have you SEEN the kind of things people ask him on twitter? Lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't think i HAVE seen what is said to him in twitter...Hope it ain't some crazy crap
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Hey just want to stop in and say thanks for the work you do on this phone. And I agree with the what others have said you don't owe us anything we are just greatful with what ever time we can steal from you.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda app-developers app
Look, thanks every and as such. For those of you who think that I have to explain myself, I pretty much do. A lot of you guys know the basics behind what it is I'm dealing with, but don't KNOW. If that makes any sense. I really enjoy working on this device and working with the community. I know it seems like I might get snappy sometimes or I'm short with my answers, but please just keep in mind that I have a lot of things on my plate and that I mean well.
Someone pointed out that the XOOM is running a Tegra 2. I did forget that fact, however even with that being the case, it has helped us very little in our endeavors. In fact it's still on 2.6.35 if I remember correctly and the props are still designed with that in mind. However it is still an updated kernel to work with ICS and such still causes some problems.
DZK, man I appreciate all your efforts! I don' t have the plate you do to deal with but I can surely understand where you are coming from.
I do believe that the majority of the community appreciates tremendously what you do for us, and the ones that can't be patient and understand well they can just flip off!
Thanks man!
Dragonzkiller you have done so much for this community and our X2. Would you be interested in a 2 month old PERFECT condition Dinc2? At least you would get a phone with official ICS and it actually already does since UKB is using the official kernel from the China released OTA. Its a great phone with great battery life just a smaller screen. You have done so much for us I would be happy to hook you up with a great deal. One I won't be able to tell my wife about lol
DZK, I too am an engineering student currently, and I fully understand what you are/will be dealing with. Free time is something we engineering students don't have the luxury to afford
With that being said, I truly appreciate what you have done in the development of this phone and how much time you have devoted to doing so. Keep your head high and let the haters hate.
Travisdroidx2 said:
Dragonzkiller you have done so much for this community and our X2. Would you be interested in a 2 month old PERFECT condition Dinc2? At least you would get a phone with official ICS and it actually already does since UKB is using the official kernel from the China released OTA. Its a great phone with great battery life just a smaller screen. You have done so much for us I would be happy to hook you up with a great deal. One I won't be able to tell my wife about lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY!!! I see what you're trying to do! Quit trying to kang our dev for the Dinc2 community!!!
Language warning! Don't open in front of boss or kids!
http://i.imgur.com/dWZMF.jpg