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Hi all,
What follows could be considered to be the ramblings of a lunatic however it is intended to provoke discussion and maybe some thought about where we (Sense users/fans) go from here. Personally I know I don't want to see Sense die off (I'm not planning on moving to Android or WinPho 7 any time soon, as you'll read) and my phone (HD2) is only a YEAR old!
The Future of Sense?
Many of us bought our HTC WinMo phones on the strength of Sense (henceforth referred to as Manila to differentiate it from its Android, and Windows Phone 7 "Hub", incarnations), which brought a compelling and attractive interface to ugly old WinMo. Judging by the amount of devices Manila has been (or has been requested to be) ported to it is still a compelling and attractive interface. However users and fans of Manila are now facing a dilemma; Manila is, in all probability reaching, if it hasn't already, the end of its (officially) developed life. Short of any previously unknown major bugs surfacing its not hard to imagine HTC now focusing all their efforts on Android and Windows Phone 7.
So where does this leave us, many of us who still have perfectly functioning phones, which often still have up-to-date hardware? We could, thanks to the guys (with very large brains) here on XDA developers, choose between Windows Phone 7 or Android to give our phones a new lease of life. However, personally (and I know I'm not the only one) I don't want to. Windows phone 7 doesn't appeal because of its lack of customisation (and copying of iOS on so many levels), and Android because of, well, Google! WinMo gives us the freedom to tinker, without the need of "jail breaking", which many of us love WinMo for. Manila is the icing on the cake... and everyone knows the icing is the best bit of the cake!
So where do we go from here?
Organise. Mobilise.
First off I don't want to take anything away from the (quite brilliant) people here on XDA Developers that have already managed (or facilitated others) to do some pretty amazing things with Manila, having extended it far beyond HTCs original scope. However despite all the hard work and effort that has gone into reverse engineering Manila there is still much that is unknown about it and parts we cannot change. If we wish to see Manila grow and develop (further than we already have), to keep our phones current, we need HTCs co-operation, we need the actual Manila source.
But why should HTC help us when they would probably rather us buy new phones? Well, HTC is a business and all good business' like a good deal. So, they've got something we want but what do we have to offer them in return? I believe that Manila has applications outside of Android and Windows Phone 7 (which HTC already have covered, so we can forget about them) so there is still one avenue left to us that we could attempt to try and tempt HTC with...
Swallow the Tablet!
At the moment the tablet market is dominated by iOS and Android but inevitably Microsoft will manage to muscle Windows into the tablet market. It managed it with phones (then, as we all know, lost its way) and more recently it managed to (almost completely) squeeze Linux out of the netbook market. At CES 2011 scores of Windows based tablets were unveiled from manufacturers such as Asus, Lenovo, Viliv and even Samsung! Microsofts desire to muscle its way into yet another market (tablets) with a full fat version of Windows is compounded by the fact that the next version of Windows (8) will support SoC architectures from Intel and ARM. Make no mistake; Whatever your views on the suitability of Windows for tablets, Windows tablets are coming and they will sell. However, lets not get too hung up on tablets, there are still millions upon millions (upon millions!) of PCs out there and sales of PCs are still strong.
But what does this have to do with Manila? Well, I believe Manila would make the perfect lightweight 3D widget engine for Windows and this is where our opportunity lies. HTC currently has a massive presence in smartphones and are now entering the tablet market (currently Android to begin with, but given their ties with Microsoft, in the past with Windows Mobile and now Windows Phone 7, it won't be long before they produce a full fat Windows tablet). However they do not (yet) have a presence, of any kind, on desktops and it is with this that we could tempt them. So, HTC get the opportunity to have a presence PC desktops worldwide and we get to extend the life of our phones that utilise Manila!
Don't forget the presence of "Sense" on the desktop would be a great marketing tool... people see the advertisements for Sense on the TV (as HTC are currently doing in the UK), they give it a try on their computer, like it, and may be inclined to buy a phone with Sense in the future. There are also the opportunities that "Sense" (Manila) on the desktop could tie in with Sense on phones.
To be continued...
Reserved for future use.
Not on a desktop
Sense is designed for touch interfaces. A desktop PC is better served by the current Windows 7 interface, in my opinion.
Sense is fine for tablets and other touch devices, in fact HTC just demoed a version for Android tablets.
stevedebi said:
Sense is designed for touch interfaces. A desktop PC is better served by the current Windows 7 interface, in my opinion.
Sense is fine for tablets and other touch devices, in fact HTC just demoed a version for Android tablets.
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I feel you've missed the point somewhat. Windows 7 is better suited to a desktop/laptop PC but even so Windows 7 is still being installed on tablets. What Windows 7 will need is a proper touch based interface to hide the largely finger unfriendly OS... Sound familiar? Like Windows Mobile and Sense perhaps?
Also, like I said in my first post, touchscreens are becoming more commonplace on desktop PCs (even in the home) so those too would benefit from a touch centric interface (and/or widget engine, as is being proposed).
Manila is being proposed as the base for that interface/engine not only because it is extremely lightweight and the similarities between Windows and Windows Mobile mean it shouldn't be too difficult to port (especially since it uses Lua), but because it will extend the life of our perfectly functioning and still up-to-date phones.
This question has flooded my mind almost as much as Android has flooded the market...
Does anyone else think that Android has gone out of control? I mean there are literally dozens of devices announced / released every week, updates are a mess, developing is tricky due to all the different versions of the OS, screen resolution, cpu, gpu etc. The custom overlays is so common that the AOSP phones are almost non existant.
Manufacturers release a new phone each week since its an easy buck because its free and they know that with Android it cant keep a decent life span since its forgotten pretty much the day its released since all the new phone arriving or due to arrive, so asking for good support is a bit much nowadays. It seems like Android is becoming the new "featurephone OS" since almost every phone released runs it, so imo it loses its Premium feel since i can run most of the same apps in a crappy free budget device than a high end monster save some games and speed...
I have had dozens of android devices, from the HTC Touch port, to the EVO 3D, and frankly its hard to get exited for an android device nowadays since theres always something bigger and better almost immediatly instead of living out its life span before it gets eclipsed by something else. Thats why i like the iOS and WP7 approach since they release it in batches (cept apple because its 1) in a certain time frame, so you know you dont have to worry about being left behind or being behind the curve for a good while (i you care about that stuff like me) OS updates are a sure thing, app compatibility is all there and it just feels more integrated and organized
Android feels like mess actually, i have an android and really like the OS but honestly, its a touch friendly version of Windows Mobile in my eyes. It has all the features you would wanr, but performance is inconsistant, user experience is a mess, updates are hit and miss, and development is a headache
Sorry to rant so much, i really like Android actually, but got to the point that flooded the market with such a thing has ruined a good thing imo
Any imput?
s3nT Fr0m mY pYrAmId fLaVoReD gLaCi3r
*Fixed a few things
Well, I believe that's what android is about. Its like windows, many different computers run different versions of windows. I understand the "premium feel" aspect, but there's no alternative to Linux on phones besides android.
on the other hand, no one wants to be as confined as iphone. there is nothing unique between one iphone and another. they are both iphones whereas android has variety
It'll really be interesting to see what the future holds. Android could replace Windows and MacOS in a lot of ways.
Good post OP. I feel, as you do, that the fragmentation of the Android platform is a complete mess. It would have been nice if Google had more control over what happened to the OS on a manufacturer level. I'd have liked, at the very least, to have seen a minimum hardware requirement, an outright ban on carrier bloat and manufacturer skins too. I'm a purist though and some people buy HTC, for example, because they want 'Sense'. Personally i believe these skins should have been an optional component, perhaps available as a Market download.
Updates to the OS should have been arranged in a more consistent and controlled manner too, but with the diversity of hardware it has become a crap-shoot. Manufacturers are churning out phone after phone and most are horribly derivative. Of course, it's all about the $$.
I'm a fan of what Microsoft are doing with the WP7 platform and can only dream about a similar scenario with Android!
I think its all good.Its all about freedom.The freedom to choose you firmware,kernal,ROM or what ever.Others like iOS are to confined.Its great.
It is just because android is "opened". All manufacturers can produce and sell a phone running android. Like the computers, for example, you can't say to HP that "Why did you guys releases computers so fast? ASUS just released one yesterday!"
Also about what you think android is complicated is because of it's customizability (ability to be customized). When it can be very personalized, it gets a lot of settings. When it have a lot of settings, things get complicated. This is also why every android device is unique
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
I've always been a PC guy and have used Macs in the past. I'm just used to Windows as opposed to an iOS. The fact that Android is open sourced, it allows for any user to customize it however they want.
I own an EVO 3D, and own an iPod Touch. There's endless possibilities on what I can do on the 3D versus what I can do on the iPod. I also know that the iPod can be jailbroken as well.
I do understand your argument as there are many different phones that come out each week/month. It gets overwhelming as to which device is better and what not, but it all comes down to what the end user wants for a device that fits their needs. A typical user just wants to be able to call, text, and get online. These typical users would like to see different styles, colors, sizes that fit their lifestyle.
Apple has a standardized iPhone/iPod and it receives an update once in a while. Granted, you can pick out a cover for it in different colors and styles, but it has the same UI look.
But I, on the other hand, like to tinker and like to customize the device of my choice.
Based on the fact that we're all members here on this forum by choice and are happily reading and writing...I'd say that there's no such thing as too much.
Although I'll be honest, I was dying to just say about this much "...................." (there I said it)
i agree that android is all over the place with late updates ect however i love the fact that its available in all flavors not just one flavor like you know who.
Android is just the hip thing. It's quickly becoming to mobile-devices what MS-DOS/Windows was to home computers. Only, the licensing is different
That doesn't mean there's too much of it though. Android is still linux at its core, and part of that is putting up with the disorganized community development.
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION:
I don't know why, but it seems to me that people seem to think that they are entitled to get the newest operating systems.
I am not talking about incremental items like 2.3.3 to 2.3.4, 3.1 to 3.2 but major upgrades... Froyo to Gingerbread, Gingerbread to Honeycomb, etc.
If I want to upgrade Windows XP to Windows 7, it will cost me money, and my hardware might not be able to run it. If a Mac user wants to upgrade to Snowleopard, it cost them, too.
I think if we had to pay $49 for a new operating system, we wouldn't be so hard HTC or other manufactures that are slow to release an operating system.
They won't charge because they can't adhere to any established schedule.
LG Optimus 3D (T-Mobile/P920)
Theoretically that could work and provide an incentive to the vendors. They could lower their initial price to buy a device (since the support cost are baked in), but software is still hard and i think customer acceptance of those upgrade fees would be the problem. As long as the industry leader (Apple) gives free OS updates it would be a hard sell to charge for Android updates. The bigger problem for most handset and tablet makers is that they are in a constant churn cycle trying to bring the next shiny new paperweight to market ahead of the competition. Apple has a fanatical user base and is somewhat insulated from competition. If you look at their hardware against say Samsung, Apple is a generation behind in radio and processor technology.
And each of these new churns of the newest hardware causes a hardware maker to have to redo all the device specific software (there's a lot of it) to run Android.
sbrownla said:
They won't charge because they can't adhere to any established schedule.
LG Optimus 3D (T-Mobile/P920)
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Who says they have to have a schedule? MS doesn't have a schedule. Also, didn't MS charge for one of the Windows Mobile updates? Pretty sure I'm remembering that correctly.
Well and the reason a lot of us even use Android is that it's perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being more open and inclusive. Part of that openness has been the eventual Open Source release of each version of the operating system.
I'd pay extra for hardware that ran a 100% Open Source version of Android though, with some freeer alternative to Market, etc.
TidBit said:
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION:
I don't know why, but it seems to me that people seem entitled to get the newest operating systems.
I am not talking about incremental items like 2.3.3 to 2.3.4, 3.1 to 3.2 but major upgrades... Froyo to Gingerbread, Gingerbread to Honeycomb, etc.
If I want to upgrade Windows XP to Windows 7, it will cost me money, and my hardware might not be able to run it. If a Mac user wants to upgrade to Snowleopard, it cost them, too.
I think if we had to pay $49 for a new operating system, we wouldn't be so hard HTC or other manufactures that are slow to release an operating system.
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In the Windows world things are a bit different. You pay Microsoft only for the OS. The biggest issue to get a new Windows version running on an old pc is drivers. If we translate the Windows world to Android we would pay Google for the OS (and upgrades) and HTC (for example) for the hardware (and drivers). In this world, when a new Android version is released, I can asure you that users will start to chase HTC to write new drivers compatible with the new Android version. And they want it for free.
It would be better to standarize all internal components and connections in devices. And android should contain some generic drivers to at least boot the device and use basic functions (screen, sd card, touch).
I wouldn't mind paying something extra for OS upgrades, but I don't like the idea of paying HTC for an OS upgrade while most of the work was done by Google.
Btw, by buying an HTC Android device, you also donate some bucks to the nice guys @ Microsoft.
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
As a consumer, unless you enter a contract with a vendor, you are entitled to nothing. However the market forces suppliers to behave in a certain fashion in order to maintain a place in the market. How well a company balances service, vs. cost vs. profit will in the long run determine how well they do in comparison to their competitors. Therefore consumers are in effect entitled to expect some level of support from vendors when they purchase a product.
The problem is , that level of support is undefined, so a vendor has to be careful how they set expectations and consumers have to be realistic in their expectations. It's a hard balance to achieve.
I would love to see the whole concept of mobile devices move to a more PC oriented ecosystem.
Think about it.. Being able to pick and choose which hardware and which OS, and only having to deal with the carrier for service (ala cable providers) would certainly change the way things work. In my opinion for the better.
No more carrier locked phones, no more manufacturer locked OS's. I could go pick up my HTC Phone1 or Samsung Phone9, load up my Android XP and punch in my Verizon credentials and im off.
Crazy concept, i like it. Downsides i could see being increased price in phones. But on the same token, just the fact they are carrier free would drive down the price due to competition.
Would drive down cellular prices too since the only thing they would be competing with would be service area, price and data caps. Similiar to now, but without the contracts tying you in to a phone for 2 years.
Also, side-rant. 2 years for a mobile contract is absurd right now. Mobile tech is exploding, and with major hw improvements within a years time are rolling out, its just not fair.
My buddy just upgraded from his HTC Hero last month. I couldnt imagine still using that relic after having upgraded to an Epic, then an iphone4. Going back to the Hero would be torture.
TidBit said:
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION:
I don't know why, but it seems to me that people seem to think that they are entitled to get the newest operating systems.
I am not talking about incremental items like 2.3.3 to 2.3.4, 3.1 to 3.2 but major upgrades... Froyo to Gingerbread, Gingerbread to Honeycomb, etc.
If I want to upgrade Windows XP to Windows 7, it will cost me money, and my hardware might not be able to run it. If a Mac user wants to upgrade to Snowleopard, it cost them, too.
I think if we had to pay $49 for a new operating system, we wouldn't be so hard HTC or other manufactures that are slow to release an operating system.
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Click to collapse
It's funny that you mention this because I remember Apple charging like $5 to upgrade older ipod touches to the newer OS and people were throwing a fit. They eventually gave the software upgrade away for free. I think everyone feels entitled to the honeycomb upgrade since HTC promised that it was going to be available soon. Nobody wants to buy a new tablet every year. Just look at Apple as an example. They could have easily only made IOS 5 only available for the Ipad 2 and alienated the millions of Ipad 1 owners out there. Instead, they offered the upgrade for both devices so people with the older model can still enjoy some of the new features. I think what everyone here is afraid of is that HTC is going to announce a HTC Flyer 2 in a couple months with a dual core processor and honeycomb/ice cream sandwich.
thetruth1983 said:
It's funny that you mention this because I remember Apple charging like $5 to upgrade older ipod touches to the newer OS and people were throwing a fit. They eventually gave the software upgrade away for free. I think everyone feels entitled to the honeycomb upgrade since HTC promised that it was going to be available soon. Nobody wants to buy a new tablet every year. Just look at Apple as an example. They could have easily only made IOS 5 only available for the Ipad 2 and alienated the millions of Ipad 1 owners out there. Instead, they offered the upgrade for both devices so people with the older model can still enjoy some of the new features. I think what everyone here is afraid of is that HTC is going to announce a HTC Flyer 2 in a couple months with a dual core processor and honeycomb/ice cream sandwich.
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I guess you are right. I did buy my HTC Flyer when the price dropped to $299 and I really love it. It is much better than my old Viewsonic G Tablet. I guess if I paid the $499, I would feel a little different.
Google tried the complete unlocked , open source concept essentially with their first Nexus phone, unfortunately it was a flop. The percentage of people that want to tinker with a phone (or tablet) vs. those that just want it to work is really small, otherwise, Apple wouldn't be so successful. I know most if us feel differently because we are passionate about the tech. and customizing.
And one more note. I worked for General Electric doing commercial software development for many years.I understand the business and legal aspect. Consumers are not "entitled" to anything, but..
I also understand that consumers are entitled to feel they are being treated fairly or you will be out of business (unless you have a monopoly , which unfortunately the cell industry behaves like in a lot of instances).
I do have a problem with false or deceptive advertising which this industry engages in fairly routinely.For example HTC announcing that the Flyer would get the honeycomb update and not delivering is deceptive. Verizon's TV ads about speed of network "rule the airways" while not talking about how they throttle your speeds is deceptive. It's not illegal, but it is deceptive and I do think consumers are entitled to the truth at some point.
DigitalMD said:
As a consumer, unless you enter a contract with a vendor, you are entitled to nothing. However the market forces suppliers to behave in a certain fashion in order to maintain a place in the market. How well a company balances service, vs. cost vs. profit will in the long run determine how well they do in comparison to their competitors. Therefore consumers are in effect entitled to expect some level of support from vendors when they purchase a product.
The problem is , that level of support is undefined, so a vendor has to be careful how they set expectations and consumers have to be realistic in their expectations. It's a hard balance to achieve.
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I think there's an implied agreement that any major defects will be fixed unless you state otherwise. Take for example the HTC logging security issue.
---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------
DigitalMD said:
Google tried the complete unlocked , open source concept essentially with their first Nexus phone, unfortunately it was a flop. The percentage of people that want to tinker with a phone (or tablet) vs. those that just want it to work is really small, otherwise, Apple wouldn't be so successful. I know most if us feel differently because we are passionate about the tech. and customizing.
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FWIW, consumers *do* care about crapware. Friends know I'm an Android developer and the first thing they always ask, without a doubt, is how to remove ESPN or Avatar or other crap from their phones. Especially when people move over from the iPhone world, they are inundated by crapware.
I think the biggest selling point of the Nexus phones SHOULD be that they are mostly crapware-free, although I consider Twitter and Facebook superfluous.
ICS will let you disable system apps, which is going to be a huge bonus for users as long as the carriers don't find a way of blocking that feature.
If you believe that whole "implied agreement" thing, go check out what Sprint customers are dealing with now that Sprint yanked their unlimited data plan out from under them.
Eliminating as you call it ,Crapwear is not going to happen in Android period. You seem to have forgotten, Google is a advertising company. That's where they make the overwhelming majority of their income, about $12.5 billion last quarter. Android is a platform for leveraging that market.
The Nexus One phones were actually targeted toward developers and as such were pretty clean and open. The new Nexus Galaxy is a consumer phone.
Google doesn't make a dime from ESPN and Avatar pre-installs. The money they make on Admob is mostly from apps that users opt to download. Maps, which has some sponsored results, isn't crapware by most people's standards.
If Google had no interest in helping people out with clean phones, they wouldn't have put the ICS feature in to disable system apps.
As for implied agreement, see that those customers are angry. It's not like you're going to sue Sprint (although class actions do happen), but if you advertise one thing and do another, people get mad.
well ...
barry99705 said:
Who says they have to have a schedule? MS doesn't have a schedule. Also, didn't MS charge for one of the Windows Mobile updates? Pretty sure I'm remembering that correctly.
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MS most certainly does have a schedule for updating all of their devices to Mango, by the way. And, they are updating every single one built by every single manufacturer. The schedule is available online. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/features/update-schedules.aspx MS didn't charge end users for updates and never has, but the expectation is that all phones built around the same time period will have similar capabilities with regard to updating. With Android it's, "build first, slap the OS on later and see what works." In other words, it's not an OS-based market, it's a device-based market (I can't stand that word "ecosystem" unless it's used to describe biological phenomena, sorry).
What it boils down to is consumer expectation, as brought up by other commenters.
If Google were to charge for updates, they'd have a greater obligation to fulfill the promises made: update schedules, device lifespan, OS compatibility, etc. That would put more pressure on manufacturers to adhere to Google's whims, instead of allowing manufacturers to do whatever they want in terms of price/OS--that was the freedom and flexibility that the Open Handset Alliance was meant to offer manufacturers.
Android is too unwieldy and manufacturers (and Google) are making more money just throwing things out there and hoping that they stick than they would if they solidify anything related to the software on devices--which is what they would have to do if they began to charge for the OS.
They also run the risk of exposure to even more complicated licensing issues. You thought the Oracle debacle is bad, if Google were charging end users directly it would have been far worse for them because of the money they would have made on IP that came from sources that: (1) didn't put it out there to be 'profitable' to any one particular entity, (2) didn't put it out there in the first place (allegedly), etc.
Read this for a good perspective of where Google and the Android update schedules actually sit at the moment. Google tired to get a group of hardware makers to agree to timely updates and virtually nothing came from it. Google has no control.
http://www.tested.com/news/what-googles-android-update-deal-means-for-fragmentation/2310/
Sad but true.
I wish there were a Nexus with a physical keyboard.
I remain optimistic for the Flyer. I don't expect much from HTC, but I believe one of our independent developers will pick the ICS ball up and run with it.
HTC has shown a previous pattern of leaving their customers behind. I hope it is changing, but I don't count on it.
First smartphone was some low-end Android phone on a prepaid carrier, and even though it ran like crap, I've loved Android since. I took a shot with Windows Phone by buying a Dell Venue Pro, but the main reason I chose it (hardware keyboard) turned out to be a bit disappointing, and I kinda came with a negative attitude toward the OS, and eventually returned it. Plus, it was last-gen specs and it had its share of issues, so I probably wouldn't have kept it regardless.
Anyway, I've really been considering getting an HTC Radar on T-Mobile US, because I love everything about the phone (size, design, cameras, etc.)...but I need to be sold on Windows Phone and its functions/capabilities. I'm not too big on customization with Android (single homescreen with no widgets), and most apps I could live without on a daily basis (the few apps like Square I could plan in advance for and use an Android phone). I did like how smooth it was overall, but it seemed like a lot of basic phone/messaging/internet options were either hidden in weird places or non-existent (like manually refreshing certain stuff). And I did update the Dell to Mango, so I don't need to be told about the benefits, unless some of them apply only to the 2nd-gen WP devices like the Radar.
And in this case, I'd either get a Radar and then a Flyer so I can keep Android (and still use it as a phone if necessary), or just the new One S and no tablet.
First of all, everything is about your priorities and preferences. Mobile devices are a personal decision because there is always a tradeoff between cost, power, size, simplicity, customization, prior experience, and battery life. I can only tell you what works for me, then you can evaluate and come to your own decision.
In my signature you can see the devices that I have used, so I have some experience on both the Android and Windows Phone side. Last year I bounced back and forth between the two, but came down on the firmly on the Windows side for one major reason:
Simplicity.
It takes me two or three days to get an Android phone into a usable state so I have my major apps front and center, and eliminate as much "junk" as possible. (Of course, one man's junk is another man's favorite app.)
Windows Phone has most of what I need already set up once I've loaded my Google, Live, Exchange, Twitter, and LinkedIn accounts. As a matter of fact, give me the standard Microsoft apps, plus a Google Voice client, and I can do just about everything I need to do.
Also, I find the Live Tiles and Hubs very useful in pulling information together from multiple sources. The clean, bold, unified design of the OS is icing on the cake.
After using Windows Phone, Android looks like a mish-mash of random interfaces and cluttered design.
But that's just me.
I've got a Radar on T-Mobile and a Nokia Lumia 900 on AT&T. One of them has to go this week. The Lumia is about the most beautiful phone I've ever used and the AT&T LTE is strong and fast where I live. On the other hand, the Radar feels perfect in the hand, and T-Mobile's HSPA+ is fast enough. (But the coverage doesn't stretch out into the suburbs where I sometimes go.)
If you like Windows Phone and are a T-Mobile customer, the Radar is a quality choice. Also take a look at the Nokia 710. Some people like that handset better.
That's my opinion, for what it's worth. Best of luck!
Thanks for the quick reply. I do agree that Windows Phone is much simpler, and that definitely does appeal to me. I looked around and saw that it's possible to get OEM apps like the Nokia-specific apps without much work, that's nice. It's also nice that there might be a ROM for the Radar sometime soon.
However, I'm a bit confused when it comes to side-loading apps and unlocking and whatnot. I read something about Chevron tokens, and that they're out of stock, but then the official site charges $9 to unlock - what exactly does that do? And then in another thread I read something about being able to unlock it for free through a student DreamSpark account...is there a simple explanation about unlocking and ways to do it?
Anyway, I might be a little more sold on it as a result...if I can get one for a good price, I might jump on it soon.
EDIT: Also, since I saw you had a Nokia N8...where does Symbian fall into any of this - would it be something you'd ever consider going back to? I haven't had the chance to experience it, and have no idea how it compares to Android or WP7.5
magus57 said:
I'd either get a Radar and then a Flyer so I can keep Android (and still use it as a phone if necessary), or just the new One S and no tablet.
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Ive also had experience of both and getting a tablet is a sensible thing.. I have a Galaxy 5 Wifi for my media player and now a Radar for my Phone.
As has been mentioned here.. the best thing is simplicity, unfortunately, Android is being hammered at us from every angle from the One X to the Sensation XE, the Galaxy S2 and now 3 to the Note and sadly, WP7 seems to be getting left behind.
This year we're now seeing HTC and Nokia battle it out, but ultimately.. its down to you.. My advice..
Dont follow the Advertising and Media circus.. it'll drive you mad and no matter what you buy, theres always something new coming out.. so is it Android, with its many apps and open source marketplace.. which can result in some rubbish apps or WP7 for simplicity and ease of use, but without the customisation, just add ons.
Bear in mind, at the end of the day.. they are just phones.. even though the adverts will tell you different. A ONE X is just a faster Desire.. but its still a phone. I find WP7 call quality is much better than my old Wildfire S and under Mango theres alot more to work with.
Good luck
magus57 said:
...However, I'm a bit confused when it comes to side-loading apps and unlocking and whatnot. I read something about Chevron tokens, and that they're out of stock.. Also, since I saw you had a Nokia N8...where does Symbian fall into any of this...
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If side-loading apps is your goal, WP7 is not the best platform. The Chevron unlocker was available to aid developers of the first edition of Windows Phone. But it was never updated for later versions, and after Mango it is useless. So there is no easy way to open up the platform, although some have managed it on a phone by phone basis. But, really, Android is so much more open in that respect that I would stay in that environment if hacking is your goal.
As for Nokia, they consistently make the best phones. The N8 is still unsurpassed as a camera phone. No one has even attempted to put that large a sensor in any smartphone since. It will only be bested this month when Nokia releases the 808 PureView running Symbian. They are ahead of the competition in build quality and their radios usually pulll in better reception that others.
Their move into Windows phone looks very strong, and they have only been making them for six months. It will be interesting to see how that lineup grows.
The Symbian OS, however, gets mixed reviews. Back in the days of Windows Mobile, it was a very strong competitor. In a post-iPhone world, however, it cannot match the mobile operating systems that have been conceived from the ground up for touch navigation. Although they have made huge advancements, including touch-enabling the whole OS, it will always feel a bit more like a super-advanced feature phone OS when compared to Android, iOS, WM7, and WebOS.
Even so , I would say that the combination of Nokia hardware and Symbian represents the best value for money of any phobne / OS combination. For example, all of these phones can upgrade to the just released Symbian Belle update and are faster and have more features than they did when they were originally released:
N8 - Feels incredible in the hand and even more distingushed from the competition today. $340
E7 - The business phone; a tilt-up touchscreen with a great slide out keyboard. $380
C6 - essentially a thinner, lighter version of the N8, minus the super large camera sensor. $215
The problem for most Americans is that they have never used a Symbian phone before, so the whole feel of the OS is odd.
I think Nokia made the right decision moving to WP7, although Symbian will remain a strong platform for them, especially in new developing markets.
Today I have read an article that all currently running WP7 Smartphones will NOT receive an Update to WP8.
Instead they will get an Update to WP 7.8.
I am sooooo happy that we have finally running HSPL for our devices, so our talented devs will hopefully be able to make coustom roms WITH WP8 !!
Lets hope the best
The article is in german, if you understand that language check it out
http://www.chip.de/news/Windows-Phone-8-Das-kann-das-neue-Microsoft-OS_56171609.html
I don't think DFT or others can do something about this :
The main reason WP8 isn't going to current devices is that most of the new kernel will be built for multi core processors ...
I don't think this is something you or me or DFT could change ...
Of course I want to be wrong xD
Btw I am pretty satisfied with the 7.8 solution.
A nice WP7.8 custom ROM would be enough for me if we'll still be able to be part of the system.
The important question is about what features will be included in the 7.8 update other than the GUI change.
Yeah, we're screwed. I'm selling my Titan while I still can, nobody would want one a few months from now.
I will probably buy a freakin' iPhone because it holds its price pretty well and stick with it until WP8 phones become available. That is if I won't become an Apple guy in the mean time...
The question still remains.... Is 7.8 going to be the last update, and how long will it take devs stop making things and switch to native code???
Why develop apps for a old system? I know wp7x apps will run on w8, but w8 will have all new open api.
i heard so many times that there would never be a way to get wp7 on my hd2....... perhaps history will repeat itself
I can deal with the 7.8 solution. I just think its a bit awkward that they would market the hell out of the Lumia 900 (and rightfully so) knowing that a few months later they are going to announce that it is not upgradeable to 8. However, Microsoft had to do what they had to do and seeing the big picture, I think it is going to be even more phenomenal. What concerns me is that I wonder if HTC is going to even bother upgrading the Titan (which I currently own) and Titan II seeing that they really have no enthusiasm for the platform. And what surprises me is that they are on board with the initial fleet of WP8 phones. I think I may switch over to Nokia next time around. You can tell how wonderfully they treat their customers and they continuously get new stuff. We shall see.
Flytetymex said:
What concerns me is that I wonder if HTC is going to even bother upgrading the Titan (which I currently own) and Titan II seeing that they really have no enthusiasm for the platform. ... I think I may switch over to Nokia next time around.
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I think the 7.8 update (if that's what you mean) is coming directly from MS so all current 7.5 handsets will be able to get it.
I'm almost 100% sure my WP8 will be from Nokia. I may even get a Lumia now, just because they look so cool & the apps are top notch. (hopefully prices on ebay will plummet after this announcement) Right now I've got a Titan II.
antaed said:
Yeah, we're screwed. I'm selling my Titan while I still can, nobody would want one a few months from now.
I will probably buy a freakin' iPhone because it holds its price pretty well and stick with it until WP8 phones become available. That is if I won't become an Apple guy in the mean time...
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sutt359 said:
The question still remains.... Is 7.8 going to be the last update, and how long will it take devs stop making things and switch to native code???
Why develop apps for a old system? I know wp7x apps will run on w8, but w8 will have all new open api.
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Guys don't talk like those trolls are WPCentral. We are on XDA-DEVELOPERS.
As an developer I would want to target mass market. When WP8 launches, even if with excellent traction what will be one's target market? 4 million? 5 million? in first 6 months?
WP7.x has 10 million+ strong.
WP7.x apps WILL run on WP8.
So I will be making apps for 15million target audience i.e. make an app for WP7.x and serve and earn more.
Only certain games that need multi-cores might be native coded but then we don't have that hardware, so MSFT hasn't screwed us.
drupad2drupad said:
Guys don't talk like those trolls are WPCentral. We are on XDA-DEVELOPERS.
As an developer I would want to target mass market. When WP8 launches, even if with excellent traction what will be one's target market? 4 million? 5 million? in first 6 months?
WP7.x has 10 million+ strong.
WP7.x apps WILL run on WP8.
So I will be making apps for 15million target audience i.e. make an app for WP7.x and serve and earn more.
Only certain games that need multi-cores might be native coded but then we don't have that hardware, so MSFT hasn't screwed us.
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I agree with what you say and I'm sorry to act like a troll but I'm angry because:
- WP7 lacks some important functionality which I hoped to get with the WP8 upgrade (VOIP integration, location background tasks, universal search, HTML5/CSS3 compatible browser, etc.)
- I wanted to keep my Titan for at least 1 year and now I have to sell it (while it still holds some value)
- if I knew the Titan would not get the update I wouldn't have bought it (I was naive, so my fault here)
antaed said:
I agree with what you say and I'm sorry to act like a troll but I'm angry because:
- WP7 lacks some important functionality which I hoped to get with the WP8 upgrade (VOIP integration, location background tasks, universal search, HTML5/CSS3 compatible browser, etc.)
- I wanted to keep my Titan for at least 1 year and now I have to sell it (while it still holds some value)
- if I knew the Titan would not get the update I wouldn't have bought it (I was naive, so my fault here)
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Since you are on XDA I am presuming you know that the dev community will probably port in custom ROMs with WP7.8 before even officials are rolled out! Yesterday's "dev summit" means nothing to the end user. No end user features are released officially. We've gotta wait for the customer focused annoucements. Surely WP7.8 won't be a start screen only update. It will plug in most of the non-hardware dependant gaps.
And - if MSFT doesnt, XDA will.
drupad2drupad said:
Since you are on XDA I am presuming you know that the dev community will probably port in custom ROMs with WP7.8 before even officials are rolled out! Yesterday's "dev summit" means nothing to the end user. No end user features are released officially. We've gotta wait for the customer focused annoucements. Surely WP7.8 won't be a start screen only update. It will plug in most of the non-hardware dependant gaps.
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I'm aware, of course
drupad2drupad said:
And - if MSFT doesnt, XDA will.
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Yes, but to what extent? Supposing that current devices were used for WP8 testing, there is hope for test build leaks. If not, the kernel/driver related gaps will almost certainly never be filled. Very difficult challenge to overcome and few developers will be interested to do it - especially true for the Titan which is far from being a popular device...
The way I am looking at this scenario is that any device was to be supported for 2 years.
I got my Titan Nov 2011 (launch was Oct 2011?)
So ideally, MSFT should support my titan till April 2013. The so called WP7.8 will add features, may be not high tech, most advanced features, but surely those that will make my Nov 2011 Titan much better than what I purchased. This WP7.8 won't actually hit our phones till Nov-Dec 2012, if that's when WP8 phones are to be in the wild.
Surely that refresh can last my phone for next 6 months. MSFT has repeatedly said they will be giving 2 major updates. Only the Lumia 900 and HTC Titan2 owners will see just one WP7.8, but all of us have seen Mango and now WP7.8
And what says, that we won't have a Tango-like minor update after WP7.8?
The fact that 7.5 is being pushed to 7.8 and not 8.0 shows that its two iterations lower than 8.0 (one being kernel change, second being ?) and THREE iterations better than 7.5. Surely a new start screen isn't worth making it 7.8. It could easily have been 7.6 unless ofcourse MSFT devs like fooling us with numbers (I don't doubt it! )
Also, MSFT will support us with apps for that period too. Devs won't make apps for an OS with zero user base. They will want it to start off with 10 million of us first. At least till June-July 2013, I don't see lots of WP8 exclusive apps that are not hardware dependant. Ofcourse there will be a huge influx of apps come this Christmas that will be exclusive to WP8 to show off its hardware capapbilities.
All in all, it is an excellent thing if you want WP to succeed and want to benefit from the whole "ecosystem" experience unmatched by any other OS! I am loving my phone and won't buy a WP8 till next summer. I am in love with my Titan and the custom ROMs have just started... possibilites are endless. We might be looking at a new HTC HD2
---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------
Here found this:
http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/06/20/new-nokia-apps-zynga-games-to-make-your-lumia-even-better/
Part that is of our interest -
"Elsewhere, you may have read about the new Windows Phone 8. How does this affect your Lumia? Well, you are not being left out. All Lumia smartphones will be getting an update to give you some of the features of Windows Phone 8, including the new Start screen, as well as a pattern of ongoing updates going forward."
When the summit was summarised, it was told that we will get continuing support from OEMs. I am inclined to believe that OEMs will dish out a range of updates for another 12-15 months or so for WP7 to bring it as close as possible to WP8. When WP8.5 is released, WP7 will truely be dead, which is OK.
drupad2drupad said:
Also, MSFT will support us with apps for that period too. Devs won't make apps for an OS with zero user base. They will want it to start off with 10 million of us first. At least till June-July 2013, I don't see lots of WP8 exclusive apps that are not hardware dependant. Ofcourse there will be a huge influx of apps come this Christmas that will be exclusive to WP8 to show off its hardware capapbilities
.
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it's really clear to me with my ics xoom tablet that gingerbread has not been abandoned. there are still few apps in the google play store that only work on ics or honeycomb. i'm pretty sure the same will apply for wp7.5/8 - as has been said before. why limit yourself to the people with one system when most apps will work on both. the only time this will change is if wp8 is a massive runaway success, which i'd be equally happy about
As far as markets go, being able to use native code means an easy port of games and apps to and from Android and iOS. If you could serve 3 markets with your app or just 1, which would you choose? WP8 means the end of apps for WP7 devices.
Microsoft could have chosen to port the kernel to our devices. People are like "well, the kernel needs multicore". Bull****. Windows 8 will run on a Pentium 4. You telling me they can get their desktop OS to run on 6-8 year old hardware but mobile can't run on less than a year old? The kernel doesn't matter any goddamn way. They could choose to port native support to our device. Apple did it with 68k to PPC and PPC to Intel, and with considerably less money and human resources. Embedded NT already runs on WP7 chipsets.
Microsoft is telling too many partners too many different things. First they say they are changing the OS to run on lower spec hardware, now they are saying the higher-end hardware can't run the next OS.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
dragon_76 said:
As far as markets go, being able to use native code means an easy port of games and apps to and from Android and iOS. If you could serve 3 markets with your app or just 1, which would you choose? WP8 means the end of apps for WP7 devices.
Microsoft could have chosen to port the kernel to our devices. People are like "well, the kernel needs multicore". Bull****. Windows 8 will run on a Pentium 4. You telling me they can get their desktop OS to run on 6-8 year old hardware but mobile can't run on less than a year old? The kernel doesn't matter any goddamn way. They could choose to port native support to our device. Apple did it with 68k to PPC and PPC to Intel, and with considerably less money and human resources. Embedded NT already runs on WP7 chipsets.
Microsoft is telling too many partners too many different things. First they say they are changing the OS to run on lower spec hardware, now they are saying the higher-end hardware can't run the next OS.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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I don't think it is about hardware at all and MSFT never suggested so either. What they've said is the whole WP8 which can be scaled up and down is a big task and effort. From update point of view, packaging this whole new kernel update via Zune to us also means, that the noob on the other hand (not you and me) needs to know what to do. To wipe devices, to get the new drivers on, the new ROM and radio - not a normal update. I think MSFT could have spent a few months trying and testing things so that current gen phones can get this new kernel with "super update". But frankly, only a few thousand of us out of the suspected 12 million are tech-savvy for such an update. The bricks, the admin to support bricks would be an endless affair.
Also, OEMs. Convincing them to make new drivers to update current hardware would mean they can't sell more phones. OEMs want to sell phones. They want money, they will never choose update v/s new hardware. OEMs would also have to have support channels open for such bricks etc - again not good enough reason to put that effort on negligible number of users of this platform.
Above all, what I think the real, REAL reason is: Hardware. Current hardware although not outdate by any means isn't good enough to "exploit" WP8 kernel that powers a PC. The choice was:
Should we have a PC software run by mediocre hardware or should we launch it with awesome hardware that will exploit the new kernel? From business point of view, new hardware, new software = more attention grabbing.
My 2p
Then by your logic, Microsoft should never release anything but bug fixes. In fact, the opposite is happening. Microsoft is planning on bypassing vendors and carriers starting with Windows 8. As far as hardware goes, no ATT rep is going to push Windows Phone now, and it is already well-known that has been a problem as it is.
In fact, it would behoove vendors if Microsoft supported current generation phones because they could work on streamlining current production instead of spending the money on new designs. Do you think the most valuable company in the world (Apple) doesn't understand this? The 3GS will run iOS 6! Other smartphone platforms are basically saying if you want your hardware supported the life if your contract, you need to buy an iPhone...
Also, just an FYI, windows phones are all the same. They all use 100% identical chipsets and have almost no custom hardware. The only difference they have is in the camera and those are high-level drivers. Microsoft was notoriously strict with their hardware spec. Hardware partners did not write any drivers, the same way PC vendors do not write any drivers. It is all a partnership between MS and chipset manufacturers.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I recieved an e.mail from Microsoft stating my titan will be able to recieve the window 8 update. What's that about?.
fallenmonk said:
I recieved an e.mail from Microsoft stating my titan will be able to recieve the window 8 update. What's that about?.
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According to the site where I got that info, all currently devices which run WP7 wont get the update, so we should wait and see...