Hello e3d general, I dont usually post over here but am looking for a poll from everyone. My question is, were you aware of the following services running on your phone before the news in the past weeks?
**PICTURE UPDATED*** 9/8 - adding in /system/bin/debuggered to tell htc, adding locations to show how logging cannot be shut off
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From what we have found so far It appears we have all agreed to these services:
Cannot be disabled without root/lots of dev work
HTC checkin - Recovery logs, kernel logs, apps used and how apps are used, mobile data usage to HTC. Seems unrelated to Tell HTC (i had this "opted out", and verified checkin was still running by getting a 200 in checkin.db/firstTimeCheckinSuccess file)
CIQ - Looks like its possible to log everything about phone, battery events, kernel messages, GPS location, data usage, media usage, MEID, etc. Most likely goes to sprint.
Google Checkin- Kernel logs/crashes/etc sent out to google
Have a user accessible/on off: (BUT STILL RUN IF YOU CHOOSE OFF)
Tell HTC - sends app crash events to HTC
HTCLoggers - polls battery events even though logging is disabled in hidden ui
For all the geeky details, you can read my post in Dev here - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1247108
My problem is having 0 details on any of these. If they need to log and that is their policy, FINE, just dont stick it 5 menus deep. I have used HTC phones forever and was not aware of this until i stumbled on it. The answer they gave to XDA news made it sound like we could opt out of anything, but that is not the case. http://www.xda-developers.com/android/htcs-statement-regarding-ciq-data-collection/
"HTC is committed to protecting your privacy and that means a commitment to clear opt-in/opt-out as the standard for collecting any information we need to serve you better."
If this is the case, where are all the off switches for these services? I have already shown a few times there are no way to stop this logging from happening. The only things
-Tell HTC SORT OF disables, even if you "opt out" you still get bugged. Logs are still wasting disk space/ io/resources. Service is in ramdisk
- Htc Loggers from hidden menu ui shows everything off, but logcat says otherwise. Service is running in ramdisk collecting logs anyway it cant be stopped.
The only way to know about them is by going to menu -> settings -> about phone -> legal info -> htc legal
Under section 2->A You can see clearly they collect "unique identification numbers", usage statistics, it "may" send Cell ID/GPS.
If HTC is reading this, if we can truly opt out I want to COMPLETELY disable these services from using my CPU/Memory/IO WITHOUT needing root:
-CIQ
-HTC Checkin
-Google Checkin
-HTCLoggers
-Tell HTC (COMPLETLY, dont keep asking to send even though i say NO)
-Dropbox / UserbehaviorLogging / HTC Usage Stats / UsageStats Dependant Services
No I wasn't, and it offends my sensibilities to no end. I am very appreciative of your research in this area. I am interested to see the path this takes. I have been using HTC devices almost exclusively for about five years, and this type of encroachment without prior consent from the user is crossing a line. Question is, is that line a legal line? It is a moral line for sure.
Thanks for all the time you are spending on this.
I was not aware of logging until reading your thread in Dev. Never would have had a clue. Thanks for all your work on this and hopefully we will see a clear opt in/opt out option someday.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Yes, I work with syslogs on a daily basis, so I wasn't too terribly concerned. However, your research into the extent to which the logging is done goes way beyond my worst nightmares.
I feel like a network admin who isn't trusted by my employer and being secretly spied upon by an outside watchdog.
I agree… there needs to be an option to really disable it completely.
I will say that I do believe this is how they are able to fix bugs and other software problems so quickly. Otherwise we would have no software support from their end.
For me, I would personally like to have the option to disable it entirely and let the average unrooted comsumer soccer mom be their little data guinea pig.
Just my two cents, I agree with you entirely.
And they wonder why there's people like us who install ROMs completely different than what they provide. Burns me up seeing crap like this.
never knew that til this thread. thanks
TrevE said:
Hello e3d general, I dont usually post over here but am looking for a poll from everyone. My question is, were you aware of the following services running on your phone before the news in the past weeks?
From what we have found so far It appears we have all agreed to these services:
Cannot be disabled without root/lots of dev work
HTC checkin - Recovery logs, kernel logs, apps used and how apps are used, mobile data usage to HTC. Seems unrelated to Tell HTC (i had this disabled, and verified checkin was still running)
CIQ - Looks like its possible to log everything about phone, battery events, kernel messages, GPS location, data usage, media usage, MEID, etc. Most likely goes to sprint.
Google Checkin- Kernel logs/crashes/etc sent out to google
Have a user accessible/on off:
Tell HTC - sends app crash events to HTC
HTCLoggers - polls battery events even though logging is disabled in hidden ui
For all the geeky details, you can read my post in Dev here - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1247108
My problem is having 0 details on any of these. If they need to log and that is their policy, FINE, just dont stick it 5 menus deep. I have used HTC phones forever and was not aware of this until i stumbled on it. The answer they gave to XDA news made it sound like we could opt out of anything, but that is not the case. http://www.xda-developers.com/android/htcs-statement-regarding-ciq-data-collection/
"HTC is committed to protecting your privacy and that means a commitment to clear opt-in/opt-out as the standard for collecting any information we need to serve you better."
If this is the case, where are all the off switches for these services? I have already shown a few times there are none except for Tell HTC/ POSSIBLY Htc Loggers.
The only way to know about them is by going to menu -> settings -> about phone -> legal info -> htc legal
Under section 2->A You can see clearly they collect "unique identification numbers", usage statistics, it "may" send Cell ID/GPS.
If HTC is reading this, if we can truly opt out I want to COMPLETELY disable these services from using my CPU/Memory/IO WITHOUT needing root:
-CIQ
-HTC Checkin
-Google Checkin
-HTCLoggers
-Tell HTC (COMPLETLY, dont keep asking to send even though i say NO)
-Dropbox / UserbehaviorLogging / HTC Usage Stats / UsageStats Dependant Services
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i didnt know about any logging until i saw your research and pulled logs off of my own phone
THANKS TREVOR!!
not the slightest clue. . .
Yes, the CIQ crap was discussed when the Evo came out and it was discussed in the Evo Shift forums for awhile.
Earliest thread discussing the IQFD process was Aug 2010 but no real action was taken.
So knowing it was on the previous ones, I'd already assumed it was on the 3d.
I am not surprised that there is logging. In fact I would be shocked if there weren't. Also, if that chart is 100% accurate some of those I actually am fine with (Google Checkin and HTCfeedback.apk specifically), but when I heard about cIQ I was incensed...to hear about all of this going on is absolutely fncking unfuriating.
Scummy. Truly. The new e-economy is obviously based on tracking you and your habits. The collecting of this data isn't the evil part but what is likely happening with it afterwards....and there is absolutely no transparency about this process even occurring. It would take a Judgement Day level act of God to reveal what they would like to do with this information...your information.
Well, as much as I hate this kind of hidden intrusion into our personal lives, I must say that its not surprising that this happens, and, frankly, all of our "online" behavior is probably tracked by someone, no matter what they "disclose" in advance..
Remember, we live in the post 9/11 era, and, it seems like being watched in some way shape or form is much more commonplace and "justifiable" than it was 10-20 years ago..
Sad state of affairs....
wase4711 said:
Well, as much as I hate this kind of hidden intrusion into our personal lives, I must say that its not surprising that this happens, and, frankly, all of our "online" behavior is probably tracked by someone, no matter what they "disclose" in advance..
Remember, we live in the post 9/11 era, and, it seems like being watched in some way shape or form is much more commonplace and "justifiable" than it was 10-20 years ago..
Sad state of affairs....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was happening already and it was going to happen more. That load of horse-**** about "living in a post 9/11 world" is just a very convenient weapon to wield. It is sickening that it works so effectively on people. Appeal to their emotions. You might as well, their intellect is broken anyway.
...color me jaded, we're in the minority bro...
Yea I had no clue until I read your thread.
daneurysm said:
It was happening already and it was going to happen more. That load of horse-**** about "living in a post 9/11 world" is just a very convenient weapon to wield. It is sickening that it works so effectively on people. Appeal to their emotions. You might as well, their intellect is broken anyway.
...color me jaded, we're in the minority bro...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agree completely, bro..kinda ironic this stuff is coming to light right now though..
You know, it would be one thing if we could opt-out, and that would put an end to the services. But HTC themselves stated," if you opt-out, we will protect your data by encrypting it (something close to that). What that tells me is that even if we opt-out, they will still collect our data. So what good is an OFF switch if their still going to collect our data? I want it to be like if we opt-out, the services no longer run! I'm NOT okay with my data being collected. As it stands right now, they collect it whether we like it (opt-in opt-out) or not!
My vote stands by Trev!!
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
I was not aware and thank you. I remember on the synergy thread about calculator had it also..wtf!! My next question is why do they need this level of detail? Raises my blood pressure just thinking about it. Thank you again.
From what ive seen so far, the people who DID know about logging, knew about it from a source outside of HTC. We are a pretty technical savvy group here and still alot didnt even know. I hope HTC will make it clear to us with a real on/off switch, give us details / show us data that comes from this, but thats never going to happen
life64x said:
I was not aware and thank you. I remember on the synergy thread about calculator had it also..wtf!! My next question is why do they need this level of detail? Raises my blood pressure just thinking about it. Thank you again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Every single bit of information they can collect on you (anonymous or not) is valuable to a company for a number of reasons. On the technical side troubleshooting and debugging. UI design likely as well. For marketing it's helpful to know what apps you love and what apps you avoid. When you use certain apps, how long you use apps...all of that is very valuable to them for their future attempts at separating you from your money.
...and then if there is non-anonymized data the value of said data skyrockets. Sure, if it is anonymous they can still tie it together with a few details and figure out who you are...but with an actual name voluntarily attached to the data it is now insanely valuable. Location data. They can tell when you are at the store, sell that data to other companies and aggregate that data. You use your debit card at the store, your bank sells that data and it gets aggregated with the other data. Use your grocery store value-card? They sell your data. Now there is a profile out there that details what you buy, at what location, the route you travel to get there, how you pay, any apps you used in the process, calls you've taken. This is a very valuable bit of marketing data...and it is also a shocking assault on your privacy.
I'm not a tin-foil hatter. This is happening. Already. Right now. On your phone, on your computer, on facebook, on google, probably even on XDA. The "like button" follows you around the internet, clicks are logged, how much time you spend on a page is logged, where you go on the internet, when, for how long, what you spend, where you get gas, the kind of car you drive, how often you get oil changes, the kind of porn you prefer, etc etc etc etc etc.
It's all out there. Already. Has been for years. Google has been very good in this regard. Facebook sells your information to advertisers...Google only sells your eyes. But Google+ demands real names...GoogleWallet is another scary proposition.
Am I being paranoid? No. This is all documented fact. Does this mean the end of the world? Mostly no, it's for harmless marketing. Does this mean it is totally harmless? Absolutely not, just wait for all of this data to fall into the wrong hands and you decide that for yourself...if you think drug tests and credit/background checks are ridiculous for getting employment, insurance, housing or credit just wait until every word you've ever said online, every product you've ever purchased, every website you've ever visited and every type of porn you've ever cranked one off to becomes a part of that....and then one day your medical history will inevitably become linked and then some true evil is let out of the bag...some things in your life should never know about other things in your life, especially your bank, insurance company, medical insurer and employer....there just aren't enough checks-and-balances remaining to keep things from being unfair if we hit that point.
I'm back! And thanks for your diligence on this stuff Trevor. I know you've worked tirelessly on this. Your efforts are outstanding.
I for one will NEVER purchase another HTC device simply because of this nonsense. who does HTC think they are? Apple? lol
Related
Hello has anyone used the money toolkit app to access your account?. On my iphone I have an official natwest app, which am sure is safe however a bit worried about this one cause it clearly states not affiliated with any bank.
Hi marvi0
I am Dan - founder of Money Toolkit, so obviously my opinion is not impartial
You are absolutely right to question apps like ours, and I wish more people were more diligent in this resect.
The biggest barrier to using any third party financial app is trust. For a small start up like ours, theres a bit of a catch 22 thing. The best way for people to trust our app is to see others using it, which means having enough early trail blazers use it.
I hope you do read some of the pages on our site regarding security - we have gone to very great lengths to keep you in charge of your credentials.
But this is still only our word. Probably the best thing to help increase your confidence is to look on our get satisfaction pages - (we cant delete messages, so it is an open conversation). Also check the comments on the Android market, again we can't even respond as the developer (which can be frustrating).
I hope others do respond on here, though we only have 500+ active users, so I would be a bit surprised.
There will always be some nervousness committing to our app, ultimately you have to go with your instincts - most people who see our app don't go on to enter their details, which is a shame in my opinion (obviously), because those who do find our app really useful.
Any questions, just ask.
Cheers.
Dan.
I have installed it and it looks pretty good
I have my fingers crossed regarding the security
Thanks for your reply so does this app actually allow me to view my natwest account information?
marvi0 said:
Thanks for your reply so does this app actually allow me to view my natwest account information?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it does yeah
you get an overview and then when you click on the account it drills down into the transactions
you cant see direct debits etc
also i wish you could change the theme, the wooden effect is a bit yukky, lol
but it does the job fine
also you have to manually log out or the app will run in the background, and if someone picks up your phone they can see the bank funds etc
winwiz - thanks for that.
You are not alone a few people don't like the wooden theme, so we are thinking of changing that.
The idea was that it continues the web site theme of being a work bench - continuing to follow the tool kit idea! We also didn't want to look like another boring bank, but probably it doesn't work that well on the phones.
Regarding logging out - we keep you logged in on purpose, (it will time out after 5 minutes) it is really annoying when you accidentally go back too far or want to swap to another app and have to log back in. Perhaps we should make that another setting?
some people even choose to keep their password remembered, and rely on the phones own security.
Remember this is a READ ONLY app, there is absolutely no way anyone could transfer funds, or make any changes to your bank.
We've got some nice things planned, like categorising your sending and graphs etc.
So any feedback or ideas really welcome - especially on the get satisfaction pages
Cheers.
MTK-Dan said:
winwiz - thanks for that.
You are not alone a few people don't like the wooden theme, so we are thinking of changing that.
The idea was that it continues the web site theme of being a work bench - continuing to follow the tool kit idea! We also didn't want to look like another boring bank, but probably it doesn't work that well on the phones.
Regarding logging out - we keep you logged in on purpose, (it will time out after 5 minutes) it is really annoying when you accidentally go back too far or want to swap to another app and have to log back in. Perhaps we should make that another setting?
some people even choose to keep their password remembered, and rely on the phones own security.
Remember this is a READ ONLY app, there is absolutely no way anyone could transfer funds, or make any changes to your bank.
We've got some nice things planned, like categorising your sending and graphs etc.
So any feedback or ideas really welcome - especially on the get satisfaction pages
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the great feedback. I'd like the option to customise the background, or if this is not possible, a solid black background. The timeout option should be configurable so the user can set the timeout period!
I look forward to the updates
MTK-Dan said:
I am Dan - founder of Money Toolkit, so obviously my opinion is not impartial
...
Any questions, just ask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Dan,
Was just deliberating about using Money Toolkit and I had a couple questions. I've no knowledge in this area so please bare with me.
On the blog post here: hxxp://moneytoolkit.com/2010/09/secure-mobile-banking/
You said that:
"Yodlee then sells your bank data to the web site that you signed up".
Which I agree doesn't sound ideal - but they have to make money to be a sustainable business. How does money toolkit intend to make money? Which part of users financial details will be utilised to do this?
Secondly - regarding the security - the same blog post says:
"Not only would someone have to get access to your phone they would have to go to the same lengths as they would if they wanted to ‘hack’ into a bank, but they would have to do it three times!"
I presume that each location storing data can't login to the bank account in part. Instead a single server instance would have to login - requiring all 3 parts of the information to do so as banks usually randomise the questions asked. That presumption may be wrong however - but if it's correct does that mean a hacker could just hack that single server instance and intercept the traffic being sent to the bank?
You said that:
"Yodlee then sells your bank data to the web site that you signed up".
"but they have to make money to be a sustainable business. How does money toolkit intend to make money? Which part of users financial details will be utilised to do this?""
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We point out the normal relationship with Yodlee because Yodlee is an independant third party, they are the entity that you end up having the biggest contractual relationship with, in fact you sign over power of attourney to them when you use a web site that uses their aggregation (read the small print).
Regarding Money Toolkit making money, so far we don't! Of course, as you point out, we need to, so we have two options - we will ask for 50p per month (for example), or we will offer good deals with companies we trust (generally not main stream banking companies), where we will make a commission, if we do that we will make the commission obvious and share it with the person taking the offer.
"Secondly - regarding the security...
...does that mean a hacker could just hack that single server instance and intercept the traffic being sent to the bank?"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well your main assumptions is correct, but the reasoning not quite right. Firstly it is not just because of the random nature of the security questions that the three way split is valuable, but literally each part is utterly useless without the other parts, they are three parts of an encrypted file, which MUST come together before it is possible to decrypt.
The decrypted file (now only in volatile memory) then returns values to your phone and it is your phone which sends (over SSL) the right request to the bank, so they would have to breach our own SSL traffic (and custom encryption). Our IP's and the bank's are hard coded so a traditional man in the midle attack is ruled out. They would in effect, have to dupe you into downloading a dodgy Money Toolkit apk for this to be possible.
As you may know, the huge majority of security problems come from static data being discoverable (cd's and memory sticks left on trains for example). In our case the three seperate locations, including your phone make this kind of static data recovery, all but impossible.
However... you are right tht if someone managed to compromise the individual server that, at that moment (we have many), did that specific decryption: then if they were very smart, they might have the ability to detect your secure bank details. Though it would be almost imposible for that to happen and us not know about it. To alter our code and not have our systems detect the intrusion would be phenomenal.
MTK-Dan said:
so we have two options - we will ask for 50p per month (for example), or we will offer good deals with companies we trust (generally not main stream banking companies), where we will make a commission, if we do that we will make the commission obvious and share it with the person taking the offer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great, both options sound reasonable
MTK-Dan said:
they are three parts of an encrypted file, which MUST come together before it is possible to decrypt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neat, didn't realise.
MTK-Dan said:
The decrypted file (now only in volatile memory) then returns values to your phone and it is your phone which sends (over SSL) the right request to the bank, so they would have to breach our own SSL traffic (and custom encryption).
They would in effect, have to dupe you into downloading a dodgy Money Toolkit apk for this to be possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That at least does sound secure (without understanding it more) I suppose there may also be security issues beyond a dodgy .apk file if the Android device has been rooted - because I think that allows apps to work outside of their sandbox. Again, I don't know enough about that.
Thanks for the detailed answers, it gives me more confidence in the service.
aph5 said:
Great, both options sound reasonable
Neat, didn't realise.
That at least does sound secure (without understanding it more) I suppose there may also be security issues beyond a dodgy .apk file if the Android device has been rooted - because I think that allows apps to work outside of their sandbox. Again, I don't know enough about that.
Thanks for the detailed answers, it gives me more confidence in the service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible to transfer money to whomever you want with this app?
Ciq well I honestly believe it.doesn't matter
Maybe battery is the only real saver
With or without ciq you still send texts through a system
You still have to pull data
You still went to CNN.com on.4g and they had to process that and send data and receive data back and forth
and carriers can see that whether or not ciq is there
And they say they cant see
I say BS
Comcast says the same thing
They look at the aggregate data
(mmmmmhmmm)
The only way
carriers.couldn't track you I.see is.Unless you're always wifi and texting through Skype..
But then your ISP can track you
But then your so paranoid you use free Wifi hotspots.to stay hidden
..then you probably shouldn't own a smart phone
I honestly believe its people being over paranoid
If you own a smart phone your being tracked with or without gps..
Position can be triangulated based
off of cell signal
I prevented ciq from actually starting on 2.3.6
So its there and not.. but to completely remove
It and still think you're not being tracked is crazy...
If you commit a crime and they want to know where you've been .. Im sure all they really have to do is ask google
Cyanogen or not
Just my thoughts
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using XDA App
We don't have CIQ on our phones.
Unless its on the skyrocket then your on the wrong section.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using XDA App
Damn this.xda.app
Still applies to the world and people being paranoid about tracking
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using XDA App
They can monitor keystrokes even on an encrypted connection because it is client based and not a "man in the middle". They can also view the data on encrypted connections, which is what people worry the most about. Comcast cannot view encrypted data.
CIQ really comes down to privacy invasion.
What concerns me is that society is becoming more and more desensitized to privacy invasion.It's becoming "the norm" for companies to steal personal info without the consumer knowing or fully understand how much they're taking and what explicitly it is being used for. Just because others do it doesn't make it right, just because there's other methods to get the same info doesn't make it any more acceptable either. I'm concerned that it's becoming common for people to think it's no big deal to have their privacy invaded just because everyone else does it or "they can get it by doing x y or z anyways so it's ok".
People should have the option to know exactly what's being taken and what it's being used for, what is stored and why. Yes they often have it in fine print that they'll take/use your information, but they're often extremely vague on what's gathered or it's buried in technical/legal writing that the average consumer doesn't even begin to understand. I think if more consumers had better knowledge of how much info is being taken and for what, they'd probably feel a bit differently.
In the past, CM has allowed users to opt out of sending their data. It's recently decided to remove the "optout feature" (c'mon, is that really a "feature"), forcing users to eat it.
http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/0...pting-out-of-cm-stats-cyanogen-says-to-chill/
"Cyanogenmod Will No Longer Allow Opting Out of CM Stats-- Cyanogen Says to Chill"
in response, i kindly made this argument:
"A fundamental issue still exists. If the data is collected via a unique identifier, and it has a timestamp, then it isn't as anonymized as people think. Anyone with a basic understanding of data security knows that. I think the uproar has to do with the reputation of the team as the protectors and defenders of our platform...you give us choice. But when we see behavior that doesn't add up, were naturally going to believe you've used that position in the community to do evil. We understand you want the the data.
What doesn't make sense, and the natural road for us all to go down:
1) is this being used to monetize CM?
2) installation data: to include location, language, device, build version, and carrier, are all things that can be identified using a single, static event report. Why should we be comfortable with an always-collecting, transmitting-in-the-background service? What's the use-case for this? You've said yourself that Google Play apps themselves often collect this data..why is that method insufficient for CM? And why should we have to expect the same from you guys as we do from everyone else. Surely there's a way to collect the necessary data you need with a scalpel, negating the need for a device drag-net like this.
In all seriousness, i trust CM to do the right thing...i just can't tell right now if they've done the lazy thing, and created a service which is omnipresent, omnipotent, running in the background and silently spying on me, just so CM can tell which language my device is running, my general location, my build information, etc.
That's fine, it's simple data, and it's fairly straight forward.
The question is, if you needed that data (which CM says it does), then why are you collecting a much, much more complicated data set, and why won't a simple installation report do? Why won't running for a short period of time...say, 5-7 days do?
Why did they take the Carrier IQ route?
Maybe they want it just so they can have it. As Koushik stated on the google plus post (where he does a great job at assuaging some fears, and creating others):
"---Did you know over half of our users are in China? They just passed the US in terms of CM installation base.
Call it ego surfing, but the data is incredibly useful."
So they're collecting all this data, without a need? It's obvious why it's extremely useful to understand, say....which language most of your users use, etc. But you don't need a 24/7 service to find out what language people use your device in.
Anyways, here's the Google + Post:
https://plus.google.com/103583939320326217147/posts/GwnzKJijBKj
Here, he has, however, provided a screenshot of your data in action, assuaging the fears of most (we never truly get to see what our data looks like after its sent through the mizteereeus pipez of the interwebz, magically transformed, and then spit back out to an analyst), and he even tells you a bit about what data it collects. What he doesn't say, is why on earth submitting the data once, after installation, in a single report wont do, or why a build report once a week, or however often, wont do.
That's the end of my tinfoil hat tirade. Like i said, i love CM, i trust them, but i'm disappointed. The reasons i listed above are arguments made to explain why people are raising hell because of this. I don't believe they'll do anything nefarious, and personally, they can ego=surf with my data all they want. It IS pretty cool. Maybe the move was a tad bit short-sighted though, because they may have gotten a bit out of touch with their users, and their users opinion of them-- and that's what my posts were supposed to do...they were supposed to bring the way I (and other's) think about them more in line with reality.
Edit: It's important to note that, as explained to us by CM, CM Statistics calls home upon reboot. Whether it runs all the time, or just for a nanosecond upon reboot, or 24/7 is important as well, but I'm unable to verify any of this, because my github skills are w34ks4uce. If we had a independent dev who could take a look at CM Stats and then explain exactly (key word) what it was collecting, that'd be über helpful....but it wouldn't mean anything in the long run. Because I was viewing the macroscopic effects of the decision. A comprehensive announcement and explanation wold probably have been prescient, because the information contained in the Google+ post is just as key as the announcement itself-- the stigma of collecting data is far to strong to just say one day-- "sneaky, sneaky--no more opting out".
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
If this thread turns into a flame fest it will be locked
As for data collection...you are using Android right?
Also check the permissions to all those third party apps.
Thanks in advance for keeping this thread civil or ignoring it.
Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
khaytsus said:
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Whoooooooo caaaares delete thread
RoOt-[]D [] []V[] []D-BeEr
Solution to all this: OpenPDroid
briand.mooreg said:
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is a brilliant idea, regardless of the status of CM Stats. A paid version with a extra feature set would be awesome.
As far as the argument for data like language, region, build, etc. I think we can say conclusively that this could be handled by a installation report, that runs once after installation or upgrade.
The type of data they need doesn't neccesitate a background service, which is why its naturally suspicious.
Sent from my Transformer using XDA Premium HD app
btswein said:
This.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I though is was enabled by default. Is this something the devs choose? Upon installation, i see a "cm statistics is running" banner in notification. Even so, what's changing, is their removing opt out all together.
Sent from my Transformer using XDA Premium HD app
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
well there you have it:
Commit MessagePermalink
Restore the opt-out for stats.
* Apparently this is a bigger issue for a small number of extremely
vocal users. We should respect their wishes, no matter how off-base
their claims are in this context.
Change-Id: I9eef9a65260ec4e360d398f80d610a198c09c915
Thanks to: khaytsus
for posting the link
khaytsus said:
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there a way we can educate/frame a conversation around how to do this in a way accepting of the vocal crowd? Perhaps an outreach campaign, minimal in effort that might encourage more users to opt in? This is an area where fundamental good can be done. The same people who've been vocal should have no problem explaining what would get them to opt in.
I think this whole thing might have been a brief thing, but if the statistics really help the project, we can all have our cake and eat it too.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using XDA Premium HD app
khaytsus said:
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You knew you'd see a post crying about this because of all that data your collecting told you lol!
Just teasin!
I would have just frozen the background service. ...
We rooty types can do that sort of thing now days. ..
And just to prevent the assumption that I missed the point of the OP. ...I didn't, and can only imagine the amount of target data our carriers pull by simply using our device. (See lengthy contract and service agreement of your carrier)...
CM data is small potatoes by comparison. ..and while quite useful to them in the generation of custom firmwares, it's a useless data source for us.
I've freely given cyanogen my data for years. And in return Steve has given me high quality work for my trouble. .....privacy concerns accepted. ....g
The easiest way to prevent CM from getting any data from you is too not install, not really that hard to figure out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
If the name "Android" were changed to something more accurate & device-specific, people could make more informed decisions
I suggest ADroid
like Ad + Roids = ADroids
The Discussion here is thought provoking
-
Maybe Ad-Droid would be better
ADDROID
or ADD-Droid
or AdsDroid
or maybe even... "spamdroid"
ooh i like that one
-
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http://store.apple.com/us
^^^^ click this link and never come back again.
if you don't like it, take another phone which does suit your needs instead of some useless complaining on the internet.
matgras said:
http://store.apple.com/us
^^^^ click this link and never come back again.
if you don't like it, take another phone which does suit your needs instead of some useless complaining on the internet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, but did you vote?
please do because I'm especially interested in hearing from the people who make the apps with the ads in them..
This thread is created specifically to address this very issue..
How many people, upon entering the android shop and playing around with the phone, had any idea 90% of the apps are chock full of annoying ads?
there was literally not a single google ad on any of the phones I tried in all the stores
Its a bit deceiving.
Hence, the suggested name change..
no, i'm not spending even more money on even more phones.
thanks though
but we should be extra vigilant in helping others who may fall into the same trap
It may be too late for me, but I believe with the proper name change, we can help other people avoid this exact same problem.. a problem you yourself may even hate more than me.. if thats even possible
keep up the good work
and dont forget to vote!
-
Every person I know does not complain about ads and stuff, and if you really don't like them; buy the adfree and give the dev a beer!
Verstuurd van mijn ST18i met Tapatalk
matgras said:
buy the adfree and give the dev a beer!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, or turn off data & wifi if not needed, and that's it... no ads
matgras said:
Every person I know does not complain about ads and stuff, and if you really don't like them; buy the adfree and give the dev a beer!
Verstuurd van mijn ST18i met Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is that 3 people? and are they all by chance app developers hoping to become millionaires?
MANKIND is fed up with the ads
we're fed up with noobs who should stick to programming or email spamming and stay the fk out of marketing, an area they obviously know nothing about.
you want money, you want a beer? EARN IT!
nobody's giving you any money because you annoy the sht out of them.. the advetising companies know that.. they are just using programmers for ad placement,, you are ad company fodder
the majority of ads on apps are not even making the developer any money.. if you didnt actually code the program yourself, and used one of the online app-building services, and are offering your app for free, then odds are you had no choice but to put ads in your app, just to be able to make it for free... and if you did pay to build it. all you get is 50% of ad revenue shared with the online builder service
and then you make 0% of the revenue the ads produce, and the online service makes 100% funded by THE most uneducated, classless, bunch of dirtbag wannabe advertisers on the planet, "the all-in-one-internet advertisers/codemonkeys"
buy you a beer eh?
are u joking or toking?
people donate money to developers who have made an awesome program from top to bottom.. a program they love, by a dev who offered it for free at a great personal cost, and who may very well have no money at all, since all of his time has been spent helping the community
thats how its always been
nobody is giving you any money for spamming them..
YOU HAVE YOUR REWARD.. your ads.. thats your beer money, drunkard...you are not a coder who does things for the community, investing all his own free time for the benefit of others without reward or thought of reward...
you are someone who has chosen to spam the community for pittance, YOU DONT DESERVE COMMUNITY MONEY..
you already have a sugardaddy.. the Ad companies.
not only do you appear to be a pathetic beggar, and pretending to need beer money, you are also behind the Ad spammers, you are on their wagon.. you're playing both sides, like we're all a bunch of fools...
who in the hell is going to pay you anything just so that special ol' you may graciously stop your uber-annoyances & ad spamming?
good luck with that
-
The good thing about android and its freedom, is that you can always use ad-blockers, restrict internet access, and other permissions with just a quick internet search and a little reading.
Trust me, blocking ads is quicker than spamming a forum.
dxppxd said:
The good thing about android and its freedom, is that you can always use ad-blockers, restrict internet access, and other permissions with just a quick internet search and a little reading.
Trust me, blocking ads is quicker than spamming a forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that does nothing to address a wide-spread problem
here, we're looking for real solutions to the spam problem
the spam problem is not mine, as a user, though I'm sure you'd like to run around calling everyone who doesnt enjoy your spamming a noob
the spam problem lies in the relationship & system ecostructure existing between ad companies, googles own ad interests, app devs, dev ethics, ad compnay ethics and Google policies
but would you rather I "just shut up", or "just go away"?
rather than solving a serious problem?
and might that have something to do with your own ad spamming?
this is about a real solution, not shutting up one person so you continue carrying about like a monkey
thanks for your imput though
and please vote
Well don't really understand your hate towards ads chinarabbit but heck i just replied to state my thoughts on it.
I don't like ads and don't see any advantage these ads provide besides giving you totally pointless info.
But since you are free to download and install anything you wan't i don't see a reason to then just uninstall the app and either buy the full unlocked version without ads or find another app that does what you wan't.
I hardly have any apps on my phone with ads so annoying that i needed to click the ad away before i could use the app.
On your comment that a dev needs to EARN his money
On one side i do follow you and one only should receive money after showing his programming money worthy skills.
But isn't that the whole idea of a free & paid app? If you like what you see in the free 'ad sponsored' app then you can buy the app and have an AD FREE app.
If there are still ads in the paid version you just uninstall it and get your money back to never look at that dev ever again.
And if you still say they need to give you and ad free version and then you'll happy pay them if it's good then WOW what a naive mind setting you live in.
Once a person receives a free full working ad free version then let's say 80% (no stats to show just made this up) won't even bother helping out the dev by donating. Out of those 80% one side are cheapskates not carrying about the dev and on the other sides they don't like the app but since it was adfree they still use it.
Long discussion short:
- You are free to choose what you DL / use so if you don't like ads use the paid versions or just don't use ad sponsored apps
- A dev should be allowed to use in app ads no matter what ( cause people are cheap bastards)
- Ad sponsoring does provide some income (i was able to host 2 sites in the past purely running on ads)
To me this thread is just your way to vent out ad frustration and trying to find other people with the same mind set.
But face it if you don't like ads go live in a cave because:
- Ads on radio
- Ads on TV
- Ads in Newspaper
- Ads in magazine
- Ads on the roads
- Ads on the internet
- All your base are belong to ads
As to finding a solution. there is NO solution.
Ads exists because companies wan't there name out there to be known and don't mind spending some $$ to achieve it.
If you can make it so companies can let everyone know who/what they are/do (<--- HHMMM ads) then you will automatically remove the ads from every place.
See how this above sentence made absolutely no sense what so ever ( point proven that ads are impossible to remove cause then companies won't survive)
What are you on? You're having a conversation with yourself in this thread and the front page comments. Google is making steps to make those annoying ad distribution methods bannable. Take a deep breath, count to 10, and relax. In the future, stop downloading all these trash apps that keep spamming you.
On your original post, I don't think Google should rebrand Android. Rebranding is terrible. I vote keep the name the same
sleeperzzz said:
Well don't really understand your hate towards ads chinarabbit but heck i just replied to state my thoughts on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm, well, i strongly disagree there is "no" solution
lets look more closely at the problem
On the developer side, they are doing the best with what they have, which is a very limited education focused on a very narrow field.. not your marketing wizs.. they are doing what they know, which is ad-based internet revenue generating as a valid form of advertising..
but that doesnt work when it takes up a tenth of your screen.
and the other side of the problem is that companies like Coco-cola, or whatever, who are not very tech-savvy, have hitherto had to rely on said webdevs to place their ads and run their online marketing
but make no mistake, the overwhelming majority of internet marketers are not actually marketers at all, but are little web designers and social media architects etc, that have really no concept of how to set-up, run, or manage a proper Marketing Campaign...
both sides are to blame..
u cant understand why I am so upset, so I'll tell you right now it likely has something to do with the fact that I have been in Marketing for the last decade. real, actual marketing, and have taught advanced-level marketing at some of the best marketing institutes, including those in Singapore.
anyway.. there are many ways to make money, ads in your app that people have to pay to remove is one way you can try to earn money
another way, and perhaps one of the best ways, is micro-charging, a concept fully realize in Korea, Japan & China, but which Americans can't seem to grasp at all.. and I have my doubts as to whether they ever will.
firstly, the carriers wont ever do whats needed for micro-charging to work, namely, allow you to take it out of your account, largely because America is not a Pay as you go telecom system, but one you pay per month and are given a set plan..
in Asia, you recharge your phone by recharge cards, and with a click of a button you deduct money from your balance for whatever you want
and Secondly, because America cant seem to figure out the numbers, and take that leap of faith required to charge people $0.01-$0.05 cents per function, rather than $0.25 and up... and offer them enough activity for their money they had a good time with it...
EA Sports is an example of such a company failing to grasp this basic Asian concept.
EA bought Popcap, and being a North American company is having a hard time making it successful in China.. Plants vs Zombies 2 for your Android Device is currently only out in China, and its one of the most popular games, currently... But those EA dorks ACTUALLY THINK PEOPLE WILL PAY 2RMB FOR 5 SECONDS WORTH OF IN-GAME FUNCTIONALITY.. ok. actually, its for blue diamonds. but anyway..
they are completely retarded.. people play that game all day long.. charging 2 to 5 Cents per function is ok, you may use that function up to 2rmb or 2 dollars a day, and be happy to pay for it if you got a good amount of fun for your money...
but to charge someone 2 yuan because YOU think people should pay 2 Yuan, because you laugh at 1 cent.. even when its not actually costing you anything to increase the in-game value, actually makes you a retard.. in Asia anyway..
or make them pay upfront from a large number of tokens etc.. is not going to work as well as on-demand, need-it-now, 1 to 5 cent, single-click, in-app micro-pays
especially when you have 1 billion users. who play the game every day for years to come
instead, what dorky American companies get is exactly squat.. and its probably more than they deserve
OR they give you some lame crappy game and expect you to pay for having a worthwhile game
Plants v Zombies is a very fun game, challenging, and fulfilling, even if you never spend a penny on micro-charges
-------anyway
another way people make money is by offering a very great and fully functional app, that is in itself a pleasure & joy to use, and fulfills your needs.
then, YOU GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND INCREASE THE SIZE AND FUNCTIONALITY OF YOUR PROGRAM 2-10 TIMES MORE
yes, that means way more work for you
and then, you charge people small amounts to add that functionality
Pleco is an example of a successful app doing this.. they give you a great, robust, very full-featured & useful app that is itself very complete and you would not need anything more
they then offer you things you didnt even know you wanted until you saw partly how they work within the app, and you end up buying them
.......... great
and another way is create an app for free, also without ads, that people really enjoy, and then request that they donate to you if they enjoyed it & feel its worth it
they sometimes even suggest an amount.
or they ask you to pay if you use it for business, or you make money with that app, etc..
---------fantastic
AND THEN, in stark contrast to all the ad-free options above, there is the worst possible way imaginable.. you make an app which annoys the crap out of everybody, making them hate your app, causing some people to fall into epileptic seizures, when you yourself have not even the slightest concept of what marketing is..
those ads arent even targeted, maybe by region or IP address, but rest assured, many more people will be hating your company, when you stick crap in the face of people who would never use your product and are not even in your target demographic.
its completely useless
WHAT USE COULD POSSIBLY COME FROM SPAMMING AN ELITE 30 SOMETHING MALE WITH ADS OF WOMEN'S MAKEUP?
none..
its a marketing fail
and its worse than that, it actually hurts your company
and no, you cant ask your customers why your ad spamming bothers them and look at them like they're stupid for not wanting them on the limited space displays in their handheld devices
---------------
and worse than those people are the ones who also want you to pay for complete functionality on a limited functionality app, or to remove the ads
-------------
there is definitely solutions
Marketing companies taking over App Development from the too-geeky-to-get-it devs
let people click close on the banner, and dont make it re-open until the next time the app is opened
or something like youtube has done, "you can close this banner ad in 5-4-3-2-1"
the ability to 'click next' on the ad, with an option to say "this ad doesnt apply to me"
and for google to enforce these protocols, as well as require all in-app ads to be targeted to a specific demographic according to more than 3 demographic or psychographic criteria..
---
oh, make no mistake, my friend, the problem is monumental
and, yes, there are many, many solutions to the problem.. indeed...
-
I find it ironic that you tout how important good marketing is (which I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point), while simultaneously suggesting Google to rebrand their most successful operating system to Ad-droid or the likes. Surely you must have realised that the marketing team at Google would not do such a thing for obvious reasons?
SammiSaysHello said:
I find it ironic that you tout how important good marketing is (which I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point), while simultaneously suggesting Google to rebrand their most successful operating system to Ad-droid or the likes. Surely you must have realised that the marketing team at Google would not do such a thing for obvious reasons?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its not a complete rebranding.. that is obviously the same current android logo, the android logo is very familiar, and it can have many different versions
the above version is just a suggestions.
Google is the brand, Android is a product line of the brand
and its in a dynamic market needing dynamic & innovative adjustments to keep up with the trends, technology, and social nuances
Adroid would be a re-introduction, an honest improvement over the current and inferior "Android"
Now, at this point I feel that I should point out to you that everything I have just said in this post right here is a joke.. not the haha type, but kind of a sad parody.. or more of a parable of sorts
it seems nobody here can really get a figure of speech that has a lesson beyond the surface text
the Adroid above is an example of everything that is wrong with the current situation in Google's Android platform and its connectors
its a Metaphor
for a real and devastating problem
shall I draw an image of exactly how annoying it is..
this is what it would look like on an HD Windows 7 Desktop
-
Perhaps instead of a full banner, they could make a small corner icon, that says "Click to See Your Ads"
"what use is that", you say?
"who would ever click on that"? you say?
Before installing an ad-supported app from the Ad-supported app section of Google Play, you need to first install the "Special Offers Manager" app.. where you are given a list of options/ a short survey where you select the type of ads you are interested in
You can select things like "sports", "movies", Fishing" etc, entering your own text if suitable choices arent available
you can also sign up for ads from specific companies or products, like Pepsi, Nike, Walmart, etc..
and you only get those ads..
AND they are full-screen, multi-page ads
and they never auto-appear
so the ads are tailored to the person's interests and personal preferences, and thus spark their interest, and may even be anticipated, or the highlight of their android usage.
"But they wont click on them if they arent shoved in their faces" you angrily exclaim
but they will, because they know there is something relevant to them, and because they can be presented with ACTUALLY SPECIAL offers.. that is, offers the user finds special, not offers the company finds special
on clicking an ad, you see Pepsi or Walmart, you are presented with a full-page Coupon or page of coupons,, or swipable multi-pages, as a coupon book..
then you click "Save QR Code" on a specific coupon, and its stored in your "Special Offers Manager" which comes as a stand-alone app for people who want to use Ad-supported ads.. the ads can be viewed by company or by date..
and there is an option in the "Special Offers Manager" app to only update coupons on WiFi connection, so you can upload larger coupon books
and all ad-supported ads are labelled as such on Google Play, and searchable in a specific category, separate from "Free".. Free, and "Ad-Supported Free"
then you go to a store, pull out your phone, go to your 'Special Offers Manager', click "Get QR Code" for the offer you saved, scan it at the store, and receive your special offer.
users will actively seek out the ads, clicking through them on the "Next" and "Previous" buttons, cycling through ads made just for you, according to your needs.
no secret info collecting and guessing what people want
whatever.. America is 15 years out from this, yet.. if ever
And here's a well put together article for you take a gander at http://www.forbes.com/sites/ayoomojola/2013/09/26/ios-is-for-revenue-android-is-for-ads/
iOS users spend more on Apps, Android users don't. iOS users are going to shell out more $$$ for a product that's not always up to date or quickly falls behind the Android competitors.
So Android users it would seem have adapted and can deal with the ads. If it's something that bothers you so greatly, maybe you should take your money over to iOS. Pay more and get less ads. bye!
Surprise surprise this thread is going nowhere. I'm shocked.
Thread closed.
Hi Guys, just bought the Galaxy Note 8 from T-mobile,
I started the phone without logging in, and it was working fine, but as soon as I logged in, it does not allow me to log out.
It asked me to fully reset the phone, but I need blackberry for work app and park mobile app,, so if i reset, i will loose it.
Q1.) do you know how to can I logout without reset?
Q2.) if I reset, is it possible to sideloade those two apps?
Q3.) is there any alternate market?
when I try to go to
"cloud and account" --> "accounts" --> select "google" --> on account profile page menu --> "remove account" --> ack "remove account"
gives me message , "
Remove account
" Account is needed by some apps. You can only remove it by resetting device to factory defaults(which deletes all personal data). To do this go to setting > Backup and reset"
then "backup and reset" requires/forces me to create a "samsung account" and still I cant logout without restting.
I called T-mo. they were trying to help, but they couldnt' and told me only samsung can help, but "samsung" is not willing to help, not replying my email or private tweets,
Every person has their own level of tolerance for privacy, I am not looking for advises on why I want to log out, I need help on how to logout.
since I use it for work I can't root , blackberry app will not work.
Model: SM-N950U
Android V: 7.1.1
Samsung Experience V: 8.5
android security patch: oct 1, 2017
Kernal: 4.4.21-12461033
knox: 2.9
pls. help
It looks like this is called FRP (Factory Reset Protection) program, provided by Samsung..
objective is to prevent anyone from stilling your phone and reset it and use it.
but why not use samsung account ? why to use google account for this? they are too creepy if you logged in?
there are few instructions on removing sync , accounts.db and accounts.journal files, is it safe? is it going to screwup the phone ?
is there is no opt-in/opt-out for FRP?
The problem is that the apps that you installed is part of your account. So you need to add another Google account. Then any free app with no in-app purchases will also be part of that account. Any app that you have that is paid and/or in-app purchases attached to that Google account to it will need to be removed in order not to need to reset the device. The reason is that any app that you purchased or in-app purchased is attached to that Google account and can't be transferred to another account and can't be used without being logged into that Google account.
FYI - You can use Amazon app store for apps while signed in to any Google account or not even signed in to any Google account. You will still be signed into Amazon account. Amazon Store side load apps. So you need to give your device permission to side load apps.
Samsung Store is okay, but not forward thinking. Since you will need to stay with Samsung devices to keep using apps from Samsung account. That is the reason that I said Amazon App Store is much better alternative app store.
And you can still have more than one Google account signed in on your device as well.
But if you are not signed in any Google account your device will be limited usage. After all going for Android is going for its Eco-system. Just as when you go for iSO (Apple) is going for Apple Eco-system. That (Eco-system) is what we should be using as the first part of our decision in which device (Android or iOS (Apple) to get. Hardware should be the last part in our decision making when choosing which device to get. App neutrality doesn't really work 100% (for varies of reasons). So Eco-system should be THE FIRST PART of your decision.
If you don't want any company access to your information then go for a flip-phone and pen/paper.
Thanks!
I have my old galaxy S4 , where I can logout at will. so the advantages is you are not syncing your contacts, your location, search, youtube etc, and still use apps (including in-app purchase apps).
Currently if I have a fever, they tack that too, it is too intrusive..
I have never purchased an in-app item, never, and I have no intention too. but still my cc is at risk if one of my kids do it ( I know there are options berried in the settings to disable it) , but now apps also can access my contacts loc etc through google account.
if ppl can hack/steal govt data, this is nothing, like Equifax, they just apologized but no consequences.. CEO is not in the jail.. so why not to give options to their own users? why take/force decision for us? ( if I want to protect my phone and does not allow anyone to reset and start it --I need to stay logged in -- may be ok, although I think there are way to enforce that without giving up your privacy),
in anycase I am just looking to log out keeping those two apps.
Well......, too late for Samsung and Google for not getting that data. They all got that data very quickly when you first got into Android and Samsung devices. The same goes for Apple devices with Apple having your data (Apple calls that "Apple ID" information (data) that gets stored in the "Apple Cloud").
When it comes to your data (data that connects to you):
Your carrier like T-Mobile always have and logs your location with their tower's location and/or nods. As well as your web search, YouTubing, etc is logged not only by the search (Google, Microsoft, etc) and content provider (Youtube, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Sling, Pandora, Spotify, Apple, etc), but also your carrier too, like T-Mobile. If you use VPN service they logged your activity as well. Anytime you use Microsoft Office you are being logged by Microsoft too. Each app you use you are being logged by that developer, content provider, App Store that you got the apps from, ISP carrier (like T-mobile), and others. Logging out of your Google and Samsung accounts is not going to stop that.
So.... At that point, the only thing to do is enjoy the services or go for a flip-phone and pen/paper.
I use the finger print reader to protect app purchases and in-app purchases from my son. Works like a charm.
You can stop your device from syncing your contacts to Google and Samsung (This setting is in Contacts apps and in account settings). Then just backup your contacts with Samsung's Contacts app by just exporting a (VCF) file to your SDcard. Then you can import contacts from the (VCF) file. But the last Contacts that was synced to Google and/or Samsung will still be there with them.
At the end:
The Note series is designed for cloud based business and entertainment usage. That is despite that Samsung allows local usage. Still this Galaxy Note 8 is designed to be really a powerful cloud connected based business and entertainment usage device. Gone of the old PDA devices (local based usage devices). Once they put in cellular and WiFi radios within the PDA these devices have change forever.This includes tablets.
Sorry!
Thank you for you reply!
I wished there was a comprehensive law. Europe at least has an active body to do it..
Tmo/carriers --I think (at least now), might not be after your very personal data, and we already gave our ssn when we signed up, we have seen multiple times that they have easily lost that data too.. (like Target)
but Google or FB on the other end are on different level, they intervene with your life. I wonder how much they must be (paying ) lobbying senators and house reps, to keep away from bringing bills on privacy..
the last privacy law was 1974 and last revision was on 2004, that too only dictating how govt should store/use data , nothing about corporates.
I would go to flipphones, the only reason I am on the new phone is the there are new bands on Tmo that are not supported on my S4, and have no/very weak signal, so I dont think flip-phone option is there at all
but hopefully, there will be some kind of control over it. but before that I wished these CEOs had some moral, or the big schools should have taught them 1 class on morality
sendi_t34 said:
Hi Guys, just bought the Galaxy Note 8 from T-mobile,
I started the phone without logging in, and it was working fine, but as soon as I logged in, it does not allow me to log out.
It asked me to fully reset the phone, but I need blackberry for work app and park mobile app,, so if i reset, i will loose it.
Q1.) do you know how to can I logout without reset?
Q2.) if I reset, is it possible to sideloade those two apps?
Q3.) is there any alternate market?
when I try to go to
"cloud and account" --> "accounts" --> select "google" --> on account profile page menu --> "remove account" --> ack "remove account"
gives me message , "
Remove account
" Account is needed by some apps. You can only remove it by resetting device to factory defaults(which deletes all personal data). To do this go to setting > Backup and reset"
then "backup and reset" requires/forces me to create a "samsung account" and still I cant logout without restting.
I called T-mo. they were trying to help, but they couldnt' and told me only samsung can help, but "samsung" is not willing to help, not replying my email or private tweets,
Every person has their own level of tolerance for privacy, I am not looking for advises on why I want to log out, I need help on how to logout.
since I use it for work I can't root , blackberry app will not work.
Model: SM-N950U
Android V: 7.1.1
Samsung Experience V: 8.5
android security patch: oct 1, 2017
Kernal: 4.4.21-12461033
knox: 2.9
pls. help
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Click to collapse
Notices this too on the latest T-Mo firmware. Nope. No way to logout without factory reset. Exactly what that screen says. You will have to factory reset from the settings, like it or not.
You can always go to apk mirror to look for the apps and install them. But if any require you to log into a Google account, then you'll be back where you started. Sorry.
I understand why its frustrating, but it is what it is I don't mind it, cause I don't care what Google knows about me., and find their services extremely convenient. My mom won't even get a smart thermostat because she's scared the government is watching her utility usage. Me? I tell my Google Home to change the temp on my Nest Thermostat, cause I prefer convenience.
Thanks for your opinion and suggestions!
As I said, everyone has their level of tolerance. I wouldnt mind giving the information if I can control it, but this is actually intruding. like creep. ( like not letting us log out, making decision for you as if you are dumb).
I also would like convince sure, but would you like
1.) If your kids are graded over google class room, and the full academic-history is recorded there, in future your potential employer will be able to request it without even your knowledge, same thing as "agree all"
For your little convince "now" your are giving up your (or your kids )future by letting them think that this is acceptable or this is "new reality" and ppl will forgive or ppl are adaptive.. I sincerely wish you give one thought to it.
Tomorrow, they will tell you this food it good for you and you should't eat this or that.. you will say "oh I prefer convince that it is telling me what to do for my health" -- next thing you know it does not even "allow you to eat anything else." -- like it is not allowing me to log out -- b/c I dont loose the phone --making decision for me--
you can wait for that day or try to consider a "little less" convenience ..
I am not that old, at least that's what I think , but I assume old ppl. have some prejudice with govt and I dont know why... but I dont have that, govt can track it , but they dont have any corporate interest at least.
I can give more examples when you search up a deceases or your kids are in trouble everything is recorded. (no 2nd chance for them). I am not convince that you are willing to weigh those things with minor inconvenience of setting temp on your nest thermostat from your computer or logging in again and again with your fingerprints when required ..
Thank you for putting your perspective. I hope that we as a consumer see beyond apparent
Like I said before :
Both Apple and Google have you log into your account (Apple ID if it is iOS or Google account if it is Android) for their mobile devices (both tablets and "smartphones").
If you don't want this then:
Use a flip phone and pen/paper.
The things are that you have a choice and that is your choice.
On The Side Talk - I worked for some of these corporations. I find that they have less interest in your and your family's personal lives. They want customers. And the future is going towards device assistant future. That is the future our children and their children will live in the future. As business you want that piece of that pie. And for customers it is a way to have always on assistance.
What I worry about is the govs into your personal lives. It doesn't take much work for the gov agencies and law agencies in stitching in your activities and activities of people you connect with into a crime or would be crime without you doing the crime and without you planning a crime. That is what both individuals and business don't want. That is much more danger than any corporation. Meaning that I don't have any fear of any corporation becoming a gov. But I do believe we need to be aware of what the govs can and will do with your data.
When it comes to corporations my largest fear is what they will do to our accessing the whole Internet since net neutrality is reversed.
Thanks!
Sure. It sounds like 90's Microsoft saying if you dont want to use IE "your are not forced to" just dont use it , but there is no other option, but now it is cool b/c google/aaple is saysing it? same as we dont have any option for cable only optimum or comcast RCN or TWC in perticular area only one is available..
but I think we dont want to pick up another topic on this this very important subject of privacy. Net-Neutrality is very important we can open another thread.
" I worked for some of these corporations. I find that they have less interest in your and your family's personal lives" -- I bag to differ strongly. only thing they care about is "bottom line" they dont/can't (since that there business model) give a dime about your privacy..
Since you have worked for these big corporations, let me pick your brains, what do you think about Wells fargo case where false/dummy , without permissions, accounts were created.. the banks objective is to make money available/make markets/provide basic banking services -- "do you think htey have less interest in your information?"
Where as google /insta/ FB's bread and butter is Your informaiton.. do you still think they have less interest? the whole economics is based on your infromation.. while you were there what was the pricing model? on top ad. when you search for "fever", I assume there will be a real time "bidding" between aspirin/advil/ tylenol to show up as the 1st link, + bidding on your location by riteaid, walgreen, cvs, DR etc. the more the information(like age,women,kids, other conditions, are you searching it again in howmany months? is it cyclic issue can I market every month on these dates? there you go for data science .. etc) the more the price of the link since you can market other drugs too.. or children medecine on the local store.
thisi s a very basic thought, although I have not worked for those big companies.. so i dont have as much experience as you do.. let me know how they do it.. if not using our information.
Everyone needs to be aware of their data that is accessible to the public and semi-public. This is and was very true much longer than we average people had computers within our daily lives. Remember the cold war fears of whom was a communist, fascist, socialist, etc? You can look into the days of witch hunts. And go much further in time. In the data accessible world it is even more important to be aware of your data in the public and semi-public.
But that should not stop you from living the life of a modern person in the modern world.
With Google, you have the choice what data is public, semi-public and semi-private and totally private. So you have that power of what data is accessible and to whom that data is accessible to.
But I can understand if someone is in fear of what data the governments (including law enforcement agencies) can get to and have access. Corporations don't control that. In fact tech corporations rather the governments (including law enforcement agencies) not have any ability to access the data. Basically it is bad business for tech corporations in the governments (including law enforcement agencies) to have access of people's data, because of the lack of trust to the tech corporations due to governments (including law enforcement agencies) hands in people's data. Again, tech corporations don't have that kind of power to stop governments (including law enforcement agencies) from accessing the data beyond certain legal points. That is why I said "Both individuals and corporations don't want this".
We just got to be aware of what data we have out there, how the data is accessible, and to whom has access to that data. Then make intelligent decisions of what data we allow out there and to whom will have access to each data. Then practice this throughout our modern lives in this modern world.
What I do agree is that there should be "Personal Data Awareness within the Internet" classes for each child. This class would teach children the facts in the dangers of their own personal data on the Internet and how to protect themselves & their own data. I feel that this is important.
To answer your bank question: When it comes to banks. They are much different from the tech industry in so many ways. And yes, the financial industry did caused the great recession ten years ago.
I kind of agree with some of your points.
But one basic difference that you are confusing or merging corporate with governments. I am not referring government, I am okay with govt having data or even tracking since that is for security (at least I want to believe that ) , otherwize based on above logic somebody will say if you don't like it leave usa -- like if you dont want google to track you dont use google/apple/fb right?
The basic problem is, why google/apple/FB needs to carry so much personalized data? and not give us control? a basic thing like log out, even if I "log out," they can still feed me localized ads, since they have my ip and device id.. only thing is they can not say this is "sendi" who did the search ( even though they can indirectly figure it).. they can not "profile" a user. remember a few months ago when Law and Enforcement ppl. were stopping and you had to show your legal docs? and there was a huge public outcry..
But now google/apple/FB etc tracks you more than that is it still cool?
Once you (or someone else --think revenge) "post" pic/contact/vid etc on google/FB/Apple/Insta , the privacy policy you signed "agree all" makes that google/FB "property", and you have to beg them to take it out.. in the name of modern society, are you willing to bite that ?
I am not against new technology, I like and trade in crypto, but you need to have technology help you live better life, not creep you ... or make it immutable, force, all negativity they are bringing.. It is like having so much power and no responsibility ..
This is case of Moral and Ethics, Google/Apple will only act if it "come out" .. like memo from google a few months ago and publicized.. like Uber CEO case (how they operate) do you think they care about anything unless it come into media?.
https://www.boston.com/news/untagged/2015/03/24/how-to-try-to-get-your-nude-photos-removed-from-the-internet
Boston.com talked to Mitchell J. Matorin, a Wellesley-based lawyer, and Lissa McKinney, an Acton-based attorney, about some of the ways to try to get these photos removed. Matorin said that, under the act, victims trying to get photos removed can turn to federal criminal law, intellectual property law, and, in some cases, state law.
Alleging copyright infringement is a victim’s best bet, he said.
If a victim’s photo is posted without her consent, she still owns the copyright as long as she took it herself. If her partner took the photo—with or without consent—he owns the copyright unless he agrees to transfer it.
A victim who owns a copyright must file the image with the U.S. copyright office, which will then submit a copyright number to indicate that it has been registered in a federal database. Once the image has been granted a copyright number, she can sue for infringement.
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You cant take out your picture , (even if it is yours) , you need a lawyer + proof (meaning take that pic again , show it to copywrite ppl, and prove it) and then websites take it out.. where are apples 267 billions in cash sponsoring that bill? for us to trust them they they wont misuse anyone's privacy?
Again: We are responsible for our own data. What others do with the data that they have with them (including the data that they downloaded from public or what you gave them or someone you gave the data gave them) is out of the tech industry's hands (outside of copyright data that the tech company may need proof of before taking action). Believe you me you don't want the tech industry to start being the police on the Internet.
Tech industry will always be on the side of "freedom of speech". Yes they have been and are being fired back from this "freedom of speech" from the public and the governments with this in several different directions. This is a fine line. And the tech companies are not the Internet police. And you don't want the governments to be the Internet police either.
The "right to be forgotten" breaks the Internet in the same way that censorship and no net neutrality does. The "right to be forgotten" makes the information on the Internet as much of a lie as "fake news" does by hiding the facts (data) through limiting and even stopping the data from getting to the public. That is how it breaks the Internet.
I am not saying that people in the tech industry doesn't do things wrong or don't do what is becoming the modern times socially unacceptable. After all we all are humans and the exceptions of the modern world is in a huge movement of change. As we and our technologies moves us closer in many ways our exceptions of what is acceptable changes. I remember that it was normal to of found your love in or around your workplace (after all you live most of your time at work). Now days looking at someone in wrong way (without realizing you doing it) or even an unconscious blink of your eyes towards someone is unacceptable. Yet at the same time: blasting your music and videos out loud in public places & around other people (that don't want to hear/watch the stuff), legal drug use in CA (marijuana), and street gang clothing style fully with the street gang attitude to boot is fully acceptable in our world at this current moment in time.
What a twisted world we are currently living in right now where: We are not allow to even unconsciously blink our eyes towards the wrong person. Yet we can't speak against certain things what we may find offensive and even dangerous without being considered as discriminative, dangerous, and all around bad in the eyes of the modern public. While other things get way too much attention from the public. Like I find the street gang life style with the street gang attitude to boot, drug infested, blast your stuff in public with no regard to anyone else type culture to be more dangerous and offensive on a larger scale then a few bad behaviors & few bad apples within the business world. Business world always needs cleaning up in their behavior, that I agree and support. But there are much worse things that need more attention. And yet, I would be consider as a bad person with all the dressings that I mentioned above to think this way in this modern world. That is truly messed up.
The tech industry is not responsible for the data leaks either. Look onto the bad "black hat" (lack of a better terminology) hackers and governments for that. The tech industry is doing their best to stop the leaks (hacks). And the tech industry is not responsible for how the non-tech industries responds. It is up to each company to weigh the risk of when to tell the public of such leaks. If they tell the public too soon they can put the data even more risk before they can fix the problem. And the knowledge of the leak can bring scare to the public that can create more damage in many ways than it can help. Things like these are the reasons for not telling the public or delays of such knowledge like leaks. And not all these companies are tech companies. So they may not understand what happened nor the risk involved.
The tech industry is not the monster. They, like all of us, are just part of the times of this world that we live in that is going through its own changes.
Again: Know the risk, what data you have and want out there, whom should and may have access to it and how the data can be accessed. Then make your decisions from there.
Again: Protecting our privacy is very important to corporations. Since consumer's trust means business to corporations. Losing consumer's trust means lower profits.
Fears, half baked knowledge, half-truths, true data in wrong content/s, and conspiracy theories doesn't help.