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Hey guys i think this should be an important challenge to overcome maybe find out where all the ram is going and get it back without reseting our precious moguls. My experience its something that Task manager doesn't show up because when i end task on my DCD 3 1 2 ROM i dont get all of my memory back like right after reset. Also this causes inconvinient problem of starting GPS after few days of RAM going down to 8mb and not having enough to lunch TOMTOM.
Oxios doesn't not regain full mem only one third of it.
Can we some how make a better task manager or maybe purge RAM?
Writing a driver to consider our FLASH cards as constant RAM?
I would gladly sacrifice remove ability of my MicroSD for extra 4 gigs of ram and would let my memory leak on a period of roughly 4 years of constant usage.
Please lets get organized and stop hoping the next ROM upgrade will solve this issue.
This is one of the biggest downfalls of the mogul
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
It should be possible to wright a Driver to USE RAM for swap file and some of main drivers but MicroSD card to be used to run all the extra features and programs. Also why our team of coders cant plug the memory leaks or find out the runing programs not seen by Task manager and have option to close them?
PS
Thanks for confirming my worst dream about the limits of our mogul. Also I notice that PPC on palm trios seems not to have these memory leaks.
This is maybe possible if we can build a tool that can reboot the shell without rebooting the actual OS. It can be combined with the command to free the memory when the OS is unloaded. This is my theory, i think that we can recover memory like this
VulnoX said:
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
while every single statement you say is true, your only wrong about how long ti takes to wear out a flash device. According to Toshiba, the inventor of Flash memory and one of the top suppliers of Flash memory chips, the 10,000 cycles of MLC [Multi-Level Cell] NAND is more than sufficient for a wide range of consumer applications, from storing documents to digital photos. For example, if a 256-MB MLC NAND Flash-based card can typically store 250 pictures from a 4-megapixel camera (a conservative estimate), its 10,000 write/erase cycles, combined with wear-leveling algorithms in the controller, will enable the user to store and/or view approximately 2.5 million pictures within the expected useful life of the card.
For USB flash drives, Toshiba calculated that a 10,000 write cycle endurance would enable customers to completely write and erase the entire contents once per day for 27 years, well beyond the life of the hardware.
take into note that is only 10,000 write cycles. 100,000 which is common for most flash drive now a days. so no, he wont even be around to see the day his flash drive even wears out. LOL.
Glad to see this post picking up some steam But lets Try and focus on making A solution rather than discussin known facts
the known facts have already pointed out the problem (memory leaks in the OS) and the only solution we have without the source code (restart the OS by rebooting the phone) so what else is there to discuss?
oh yeah, we can talk about ways to get the source code so we can fix it.
well i posted one idea:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2257436&postcount=4
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
.milFox said:
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I think having snapshot, replication, 100% consistency, and dedup capability would be the coolest thing on a phone, I think the ZIL would burn up the sd quicker and the resource utilization would eat battery and memory for the transactional caches to make it practical
.milFox said:
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My only thought is: "why?". I have every app I want installed and still have 102MB available. Given just how much more memory this has than the G1's of yore, I don't really see much of a reason for AppstoSD, especially since Google is releasing their own implementation *soon*.
I was already down to 29 Meg on my internal memory.
I'll be happy when Google implements a2sd. I can't see it being any different than what a2sd us doing though.
Just make sure you have a class 6 card.
Down to fairly minimal memory as well, here.
as to 'why' over conventional a2sd ... the in-built memory is faster than even a class 6 card. A hybrid zpool will allow the faster memory to cache the slower memory (normally, a hybrid zpool combines a SSD with a hard drive pool).
Ah, didn't realize people were having problems with it. Even so, Google has announced that they're working on it themselves and since it will be an actual part of the Android OS, rather than something hacked on, I imagine it'll be a better implementation that whatever we can do. I'll be waiting for that up and coming android release.
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
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Click to collapse
I disagree, I only have 50 apps in total but have used 107Mb of my 196Mb used.
I lost 33Mb just flashing a theme.
Does anyone know if TA utility will work on the Nexus to move all the Caches?
Which memory are we talking about, primary or storage memory? If memory serves me correctly, the current os can only 256MB of primary memory but that will be increased to the full 512 in a later OTA update. I thought I saw some thread flying around here about that.
Amdathlonuk said:
I disagree, I only have 50 apps in total but have used 107Mb of my 196Mb used.
I lost 33Mb just flashing a theme.
Does anyone know if TA utility will work on the Nexus to move all the Caches?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You almost proved his point. 33MB is a ****ty size for a theme - get a better Themerto follow. Hell, most themes for Windows aren't that big.
-bZj
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How on earth can you possibly make this judgment? Have you ever hear of cache? What about app data? Not to tout my own app (see sig), but the reason I created it was because my myTouch, with all of its storage, would run very low the regular basis. Besides, I like to download apps, both free and paid. Why should I be limited? Personally, I never even came close to filling up my 500MB ext partition on my myTouch but could easily have 50-100MB of cache in just a few days. I think having a GB of internal would suffice. It would allow me to comfortably add as many apps as I please and at the same time, not think about cache and data on the daily basis. $575 and I'm still going to have to hack a2sd on to this. I hate that. I'd much rather use internal storage.
Personally, I'm all for it. If nothing else, it would be one hell of a proof of concept and would likely be useful especially to those who like to run their devices lean and fast. There are too many nice things to say about ZFS, so I'll just say this: it's only a matter of time and what better time than now?
But I don't think it would happen, for the same reason ZFS hasn't been ported to linux, incompatible licenses.
http://zfs-fuse.net/
Can we get the ball rolling on this?
dont worry boys
A king nexus build is coming VERY soon with OPTIONAL a2sd and kingnexus kernel #1
SOON!
kingklick said:
dont worry boys
A king nexus build is coming VERY soon with OPTIONAL a2sd and kingnexus kernel #1
SOON!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what's the Kingnexus kernel have?
cyanogen said:
So what's the Kingnexus kernel have?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 .... and how does it relate to ZFS (y on earth) and apps2sd?
~enom~
lmao you pissed of cyanogen ! xD
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ever hear of games? Seriously, making a statement like this is just plain ridiculous. Homerun Battle 3D is over 30MB in and of itself. Yes, believe it or not, people actually use their nearly $600 3.7" screen for something other than reading email, of which I do plenty. So yes, I hacked apps2sd onto my Cyan ROM and it runs beautifully. I can't even tell the difference between this and internal it's so smooth. By the time Google releases a viable apps2sd the N1 will be yesterday's news. Internal storage and capacitive buttons = fail on the N1. Otherwise, kick ass device.
I never touched the kernal on alpha7 just added a s.d>placeholder in system int.d folder got apps2sd and the rest was set. Did not know kernal was part.
Hope the kernal is good.
i know that this is a rather foolish question.but i am 13 years old and i really want an answer.this is the only place i think to find an answer.
i know that our android phone has a specified amount of internal storage.part of it is for storing apk,datas etc.another part is for rom image and all all those stuff.what i want to know is when i am installing a new rom,is it actually overwritting the existing rom.or is it installed alongside it.cause my phone is getting slower each time i install a new custom rom in my htc hero.it has 600 mhz processor.but even angry birds lag in my phone but it works smooth on my nokia 5233 xpress music touch phone.both these games are are of similar size and have same graphics quality.
No the previous rom is over written or in most cases deleted when you carry out the full wipe/delete.
The hero is an old phone and as time goes on and software evolves ect.. it also become larger in size in most cases, if you are after speed, keep away from sense roms, and generally the older the rom the better in terms of performance/free space ect..
I used to own a hero and "eleinux" (i think his name is) had a good rom called speedmachine which was a pretty good rom for the hero while still having some ports from cyanogen, if you really want a sense rom the maybe look up villainrom as they are pretty good at gutting out all the crap within sense. You could always try over-clock your CPU as-well with setCPU or if you have a cyanogen based rom there is a function within there that will allow you to over-clock.
Other than that the hero is a very dated phone, might be time to consider a new one or newer one.
no. your internal memory never ever gets reduced. if u are rooted. u can use apps like setcpu to increase speed by overclocking(at the cost of lil battery life)
you can virtually increase yout internal memory by partition ur sdcard with ext4,3
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk
...and I thought my phone was old.
Your phone is outdated, it will slow down with age. Be sure to fully wipe when flashing roms. At the minimum, wipe caches. If you haven't in a while, you should wipe everything before flashing your next rom. Really you should do a full wipe with each rom flash unless flashing an update.
Try out the V6 Supercharger script for a bit more speed, that should help some. You can buy used phones for less than $50 that are better than yours, like the Evo 4G.
I've heard good things about villianrom as well, so I did some searching for you and found this link
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=654030
hope it helps, it's very important to do a full wipe of your phone before you install new roms.
I've been quietly lurking on this site for about 2 weeks since I got a nook tablet (16GB) with an N2A card (which was horrible). I came to this site looking for a way to mod my device and ended up learning a lot more than I intended. I have sampled quite a few ROMs on here and am astonished at the amount of work that has gone into these ports. I have a device that is so much more functional it's not even funny. Already I've reclaimed the space that BN had partitioned from users. I still have a lot to learn but I wanted to express my thanks to all the developers who work hard on these. I am very appreciative that a device which is technically 'obsolete' can be revitalized and turned into something very usable. I am still trying out various ROMs to try to see which is giving me the best stability and RAM use. So far the one I am using I unfortunately forgot the name of. Any way of finding out which ROM you might have flashed? What I like about it is most of the ROMs use so much RAM I am left with around 200MB of RAM without anything running. One particular ROM I'm using consistently gives me around 400-450 MB of free RAM even with some background apps running. A HUGE improvement. A couple ROMS literally left me with less than 100MB. Anyway if anyone has any advice or happens to know how to determine which ROM I might be using I'd be very happy. Mainly I wanted to introduce myself and thank the developers. GREAT STUFF!
Some info that most Android users are not aware of, as its a bit non-intuitive:
Having less memory (RAM) available is actually a good thing. Apps can be "running" in the background without actually using the processor or other resources. They are cached via the RAM in order to allow you to relaunch them quickly. Android's memory management is quite good, albeit different from say Windows.
This is why Task Killers are generally a bad idea. I used to use them as a means to kill apps when they froze or whatever, but now, with the roms I have on my devices, I have set long-press of the back button to kill the current app, should I need to do this.
Read this article for a bit more info.
tl;dr less memory available is not necessarily a bad thing on Android.
Sorry for delayed reply
Forgive my tardy response. Our internet was out for 2 days. I understand what you are saying but what I was noticing was a huge number of active programs that were not in use, nor are commonly in use enough to justify their being cached. One particular ROM was leaving me with less than 200 MB of RAM with the same processes referred to above being inactive as well. A 200MB difference with the same stuff running. The particular one I'm on now keeps a number of things running in the background and still leaves me with well over 300MB with 4-5 programs going at the same time. So while I agree with you that some might be doing more cache than others, my experience is telling me the build with the most RAM (ie whichever one I am using...I unfortunately forgot which I installed...a CM10 but not sure if it was the cherry pick or chris'.) is the one that is managing the memory the best. I can figure out no other explanation for the same number of programs using an extra 200 MB of memory over another rom and thinking that is a good thing. For example, the ones I am thinking of are running stuff in the background I don't even use. Power Amp is a huge offender for whatever reason. I see no reason to have it running 24/7 but it does!
One of the main reasons for using the stock ROMs is for stability etc. I know, I tried the earlier custom (CM, AOSP AOKP etc. ones) and there was always something not right... my reason for wanting to use the custom ROMs was simple... size, the average stock ROM is between 1gig and 1.6 gig (with some levels of de-bloating) and a full stock ROM is about 2gig. and given we (on the 16gig versions of the G2) only have about 10gig to 'play with' means that with your nandroid backup and titanium backup you'll be lucky to have 2 or 3gig for stuff. with the CM based or AOSP ROMs etc. you are looking at a ROM size of about 250mb incl. GApps... so you save a LOT of space (nandroids, titanium etc are way smaller) and now you have about 5gig odd available, much better.
I've tried Nameless and ProBam (SlimKat RC2 is still buggy on 802) and they are both rock solid and have better battery life than any stock ROM (I was getting 40 to 55 hrs with stock and I easily get to 70 odd hours now with the custom ROMs). So I really just wanted to say a massive thanks to the developers, for taking the time and effort to get the customs ROMs to where they are, its much appreciated!
Make donation.
Jostian said:
One of the main reasons for using the stock ROMs is for stability etc. I know, I tried the earlier custom (CM, AOSP AOKP etc. ones) and there was always something not right... my reason for wanting to use the custom ROMs was simple... size, the average stock ROM is between 1gig and 1.6 gig (with some levels of de-bloating) and a full stock ROM is about 2gig. and given we (on the 16gig versions of the G2) only have about 10gig to 'play with' means that with your nandroid backup and titanium backup you'll be lucky to have 2 or 3gig for stuff. with the CM based or AOSP ROMs etc. you are looking at a ROM size of about 250mb incl. GApps... so you save a LOT of space (nandroids, titanium etc are way smaller) and now you have about 5gig odd available, much better.
I've tried Nameless and ProBam (SlimKat RC2 is still buggy on 802) and they are both rock solid and have better battery life than any stock ROM (I was getting 40 to 55 hrs with stock and I easily get to 70 odd hours now with the custom ROMs). So I really just wanted to say a massive thanks to the developers, for taking the time and effort to get the customs ROMs to where they are, its much appreciated!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know how you are gaining that much space? The system partition is a fixed size of about 2.7gig. You're not going to gain any of that back.
Good to know the ROMS are stable though... I've only just got the device and set it up the way I like it on stock.. I thought I'd give the custom roms some time to let the bugs get ironed out
baileyjr said:
I don't know how you are gaining that much space? The system partition is a fixed size of about 2.7gig. You're not going to gain any of that back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aside from dalvik cache, yeah, this.. You get no space back if /system is full or empty..
What about gaming on aosp Roms? I tried to play granny Smith and angry birds go and I couldn't get to the game play without It FCing
Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk
baileyjr said:
I don't know how you are gaining that much space? The system partition is a fixed size of about 2.7gig. You're not going to gain any of that back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
khaytsus said:
Aside from dalvik cache, yeah, this.. You get no space back if /system is full or empty..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not so much on the reading comprehension. Emphasis added.
"your nandroid backup and titanium backup you'll be lucky to have 2 or 3gig for stuff. with the CM based or AOSP ROMs etc. you are looking at a ROM size of about 250mb incl. GApps... so you save a LOT of space (nandroids, titanium etc are way smaller)"
Stock camera is the reason I stick to stock ROMs
Sent from my LG-D802 using xda app-developers app
nagel said:
Stock camera is the reason I stick to stock ROMs
Sent from my LG-D802 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can use the LG camera app on AOSP ROMs.
Sent from my Nexus 5
on the 16gig model we have access to about 10gig (for our stuff), so if I do a nandroid with a stock rom your nandroid is quite big (mine was 2.7gig), and if you keep a copy of the rom on your phone for emergencies (which I do thats another 1.5 gig odd, depending on which stock rom you use), so together those 2 = about 4gig, if I use a custom rom like nameless or probam, the rom incl. Gapps is 220mb vs 1.5gig and my nandroid is just over 1gig vs 2.5gig, thus I have at least 2gig more available space using a custom rom. my titanium backups are around 30% smaller too depending on what you backup. so instead of having 2.5 gig available after I have my phone setup like I want I now have just under 5 gig available...makes a difference for sure.
Jostian said:
on the 16gig model we have access to about 10gig (for our stuff), so if I do a nandroid with a stock rom your nandroid is quite big (mine was 2.7gig), and if you keep a copy of the rom on your phone for emergencies (which I do thats another 1.5 gig odd, depending on which stock rom you use), so together those 2 = about 4gig, if I use a custom rom like nameless or probam, the rom incl. Gapps is 220mb vs 1.5gig and my nandroid is just over 1gig vs 2.5gig, thus I have at least 2gig more available space using a custom rom. my titanium backups are around 30% smaller too depending on what you backup. so instead of having 2.5 gig available after I have my phone setup like I want I now have just under 5 gig available...makes a difference for sure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK now I understand, its because you are keeping a copy of the system partition contents, as a nandroid, on the data partition :good:
baileyjr said:
OK now I understand, its because you are keeping a copy of the system partition contents, as a nandroid, on the data partition :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess there is no way (yet) to get access to any of the 'locked' 6 gig? is there another option(s) to minimize the loss of space, just curious in case someone is doing something better, more efficient in terms of available space, thanks
dallashigh said:
Not so much on the reading comprehension. Emphasis added.
"your nandroid backup and titanium backup you'll be lucky to have 2 or 3gig for stuff. with the CM based or AOSP ROMs etc. you are looking at a ROM size of about 250mb incl. GApps... so you save a LOT of space (nandroids, titanium etc are way smaller)"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nandroid will be smaller yes. Tibu, not at all. Who backs up system apps in tibu?
Jostian said:
I guess there is no way (yet) to get access to any of the 'locked' 6 gig? is there another option(s) to minimize the loss of space, just curious in case someone is doing something better, more efficient in terms of available space, thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of that 6gig is lost in the formatting, 16Gb is the unformatted space. The system partition will remain the same size. However if you use something like "Nandroid manager" from the play store you can restore apps from the nandroid so you shouldn't need to back them up in TB, you could save space by just backing up the most recent data for your user apps
You do have the option to convert user apps to system apps in TB so you may want to play around with that. I'm "assuming" that will move them from the data partition to the system partition. Im not 100% on that but you could always just move one and check.... Having said that the apk's themselves are usually relatively small, its the data stored in Android/Data that usually account for most of the install size.
Few ideas there for you anyway, other that that your obviously better off with a 32gig version. After my apps installed, 1 Nandroid, some local music, and user apps backed up in TB I have approx 15gb free.
Here a comparison between CM10.2 and stock rom, I have about 2gb more free space for data.
I think partitions are dynamic and not fixed.