Related
Decided to ask Barnes and Nobles online chat about the NOOK Tablet's bootloader. I wasn't expecting much but Emely the second tier support person that I was bumped to informed me of the following...
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14:17:51 : Emely: Let me check the detail on the bootloader.
14:18:04 : : cool thank you
14:22:17 : Emely: The NOOK Color™ as well as the NOOK Tablet™ almost has the same features. Only that the NOOK Tablet™ is an enhanced version.
14:22:47 : : so both have the same bookloader?
14:22:52 : : bootloader that is
14:24:07 : Emely: If with the NOOK Color, it is unlocked, same with the NOOK Tablet™.
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Now this isn't conclusive, I don't know how much information she really had available to her, but it does give me hope.
cclinco said:
Decided to ask Barnes and Nobles online chat about the NOOK Tablet's bootloader. I wasn't expecting much but Emely the second tier support person that I was bumped to informed me of the following...
-------------
14:17:51 : Emely: Let me check the detail on the bootloader.
14:18:04 : : cool thank you
14:22:17 : Emely: The NOOK Color™ as well as the NOOK Tablet™ almost has the same features. Only that the NOOK Tablet™ is an enhanced version.
14:22:47 : : so both have the same bookloader?
14:22:52 : : bootloader that is
14:24:07 : Emely: If with the NOOK Color, it is unlocked, same with the NOOK Tablet™.
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Now this isn't conclusive, I don't know how much information she really had available to her, but it does give me hope.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it is "unlocked" does that mean one could sideload the Android Market apk and then have access to the Android apps without rooting?
mmeyer4663 said:
If it is "unlocked" does that mean one could sideload the Android Market apk and then have access to the Android apps without rooting?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unlocked/locked bootloader has nothing to do with side-loading apps.
I really hope that B&N will release unlocked devices: it's a boost for popularity of nooks
RussianMenace said:
Unlocked/locked bootloader has nothing to do with side-loading apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, If I remember correctly there was a statement about not "allowing" side-loading apps on the stock nook color.
Some companies think that this can affect the overall "experience" of their devices and hinder the performance.
Correct me if I'm wrong there, cause I didn't start to side-load apps till after root on the nc.
diamond_lover said:
I really hope that B&N will release unlocked devices: it's a boost for popularity of nooks
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Click to collapse
That is not their business model. They are not selling it because they want to be a hardware vendor, they are selling it because they want you to buy books and apps from them. Think printers and ink cartridges. Same reason Kindle Fire is locked and also probably why it has no SD card slot. B&N seems to be willing to look the other way though if people want to root it, which is a good thing. Most customers will not do that anyway so the fact that all of us here will is probably not going to hurt their business. In fact, it probably generates more positive buzz in the press resulting in more sales of devices that never get rooted. And some like me will continue to buy books through them as well instead of from Amazon as a sign of loyalty.
I so hope this tablet is as hackable as the Color. If it is....gimme gimme gimme
xjacko7x said:
I so hope this tablet is as hackable as the Color. If it is....gimme gimme gimme
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it is, I know what I'm getting for Christmas.
patruns said:
That is not their business model. They are not selling it because they want to be a hardware vendor, they are selling it because they want you to buy books and apps from them. Think printers and ink cartridges. Same reason Kindle Fire is locked and also probably why it has no SD card slot. B&N seems to be willing to look the other way though if people want to root it, which is a good thing. Most customers will not do that anyway so the fact that all of us here will is probably not going to hurt their business. In fact, it probably generates more positive buzz in the press resulting in more sales of devices that never get rooted. And some like me will continue to buy books through them as well instead of from Amazon as a sign of loyalty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you're right... I was meaning here in xda-devs
patruns said:
That is not their business model. They are not selling it because they want to be a hardware vendor, they are selling it because they want you to buy books and apps from them. Think printers and ink cartridges. Same reason Kindle Fire is locked and also probably why it has no SD card slot. B&N seems to be willing to look the other way though if people want to root it, which is a good thing. Most customers will not do that anyway so the fact that all of us here will is probably not going to hurt their business. In fact, it probably generates more positive buzz in the press resulting in more sales of devices that never get rooted. And some like me will continue to buy books through them as well instead of from Amazon as a sign of loyalty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not that I'm anyone, but I agree with your assessment of their (B&N) reasoning. They are trying to put out a good product but they also are marketing (hopefully) to the hacker market.
Nuenjin said:
Not that I'm anyone, but I agree with your assessment of their (B&N) reasoning. They are trying to put out a good product but they also are marketing (hopefully) to the hacker market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that B&N made the Nook Color the way that they did to make it as idiot proof as possible. I mean think of all the crap (CM7, Ubuntu, SDK Honeycomb, etc) that was thrown at the Nook Color! I have not heard of it bricking. The damn thing is almost bullet proof.
If B&N is smart they'll do the same thing with the Nook Tablet, and make it so that no matter what the customer does to it, a tech can fix it. If they make it so that a customer has to work to break their new toy, then B&N will get good press and more people will buy their product even with the higher price than the Amazon Fire.
the only other thing we need to know now is if it will boot from an sd card like the color did and we'll be all set
If they kept boot from SD or boot from USB before boot to emmc, and they didn't turn on any security features, then it doesn't matter what bootloader they use or whether it's locked or not.
Leaving boot open on the NC was great marketing, let's hope the same is true for this.
KCKitsune said:
I think that B&N made the Nook Color the way that they did to make it as idiot proof as possible. I mean think of all the crap (CM7, Ubuntu, SDK Honeycomb, etc) that was thrown at the Nook Color! I have not heard of it bricking. The damn thing is almost bullet proof.
If B&N is smart they'll do the same thing with the Nook Tablet, and make it so that no matter what the customer does to it, a tech can fix it. If they make it so that a customer has to work to break their new toy, then B&N will get good press and more people will buy their product even with the higher price than the Amazon Fire.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this i agree with you, the only reason i can see B&N doing what they did with the nook color is so that their techs can fix their nooks without any real training
If the NT is as open ended as the NC, I'll take over any other Tablet...seriously. The build quality, the aesthetics, the way it feels like a book in my hand...its beautiful. Also, IMO sliding this in my back pocket and going from class to class w/ 3 texts on it...f'ing princekiss. Er, priceless.
luigi90210 said:
this i agree with you, the only reason i can see B&N doing what they did with the nook color is so that their techs can fix their nooks without any real training
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Click to collapse
The unbrickable factor has to be make it easy to refurbish the things.
I keep thinking about the psychology of it all, because I think it's interesting. I don't want to sound repetitive so I'll back off after this.
Neither Apple nor Amazon have allowed us to have a card slot and a card slot means storage and ownership. Cloud services aren't about ownership, it ultimately leads to services that generate income.
Since B&N doesn't have a strong web based infrastructure, they have to rely on on actual storage. Coincidentally, a cardslot makes our lives easier.
I believe that at some point they (B&N) realized the nice position they backed themselves into and decided the most cost effective thing was to supercharge it and get Hulu & Netflix in the mix.
The bottom line is a good device even if it not rooted.
English isn't my first language, otherwise I'd write one myself.
I'm looking for a good english writer to write a petition to B&N to provide the development community with an ability to access the bootloader and root the device.
I think main points should be that they've made a lot of money by allowing people to mod original NC, and that this will greatly increase the interest in purchasing the NT. Also, worth mentioning some examples of devices like Captivate that really benefited from custom community development (improved GPS, fixed many bugs, early GB port, etc).
Basically persuade B&N to support and appreciate development community and give us means to develop for them.
Needless to mention, only use words like "develop", "improve", etc... not "hack" and "crack" lol.
Here's the site I found where we can collect signatures:
http://www.makeuseof.com/dir/petitionspotcom/
POST IT HERE first, then we'll go and make it official.
PS: before anybody goes all "they ain't gonna listen yo" - let me remind you of Samsung's support to SuperCurio about improving Galaxy S's sound processing. After community asked Samsung, they actually provided full support and helped SuperCurio improve the device.
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
Entropy512 said:
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed, but I think my point remains - this is another avenue of "attack" to get B&N to support us.
Our hackers are approaching this from technical side, I want to try and help and organize a line of communication with B&N and see if we can get them to help us.
Get your petition up and I'll sign! I was going to get a NT but now I'm not so sure. If it can't run from a dual booting SD card, it's just not worth it. Might as well pony up and get a "real" tablet.
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
goldenu said:
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
Click to expand...
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iamnarada said:
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
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what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed. i'm a little confused. I get the SD boot issue being a problem, but I haven't come across any apps that I use that couldn't be sideloaded.
maybe i'm just old and don't use some of the stuff you guys use?
I really enjoy the NT but don't know how long I will keep it if I constantly have to use workarounds to get any functionality out of it.
No custom kernels / ROMs
No Android Market
No settings page
No root (so far at least)
Nook button opens Nook launcher only
i dunno, I guess I'm just more patient than most. I really didn't expect to buy it and have it as functional as it is already, leave alone rooted or installing custom roms. I expected that in a few months....
I'm just glad I could install a real browser, and have access to install the apks i wanted.
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, all of the Google apps install fine, but when I try to sign in to my account or associate it my account with the tablet, it tells me my user name or password is wrong. So effectively, I can't use any of the Google apps. I can log in to my google account in the browser, and access the web versions of the apps, but....what I was looking for really was to be able to put the ROM I wanted on it.
Add me to the list of those with a clock ticking. Picked mine up on the 16th, and it stays wrapped until we know if the NT can be rooted - or day 14 - whichever comes first.
Progress is great so far - but I don't want a device that can be locked down with any random update from B&N. Based on their earlier broken promises, they have about zero credibility for things said.
Let me retract my line about broken promises - that was Amazon that promised no rooting roadblocks - and they kept to their word. I don't think B&N made any statement about this.
A petition is good, for sure. But it doesn't hurt if everyone also contacted B&N [[email protected]] and explained personally and sincerely why it would be in their best interest to unlock the Tablet. I'd focus on how their specs are superior, but useless if they're not open. I'd mention the limited space for side-loading, and enabling 3rd party apps.
I'd remind them how popular their Nook Color got, and free press, when the NC was rooted. And use the MS Kinect & Linksys WRT-54G as examples of success stories when a company adopts and opens their hardware.
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
e.mote said:
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If everyone were to do what you're saying, B&N would lose 3% of NT's total sales (judging by statistics someone referenced here), call it within a sales estimation margin of error and ignore it.
And we'd all be left without a $250 tablet, or with a ****tier one.
Sorry, don't like your solution. It'd only work if, say, 25%+ of NT buyers wanted root.
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
e.mote said:
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People have different reasons.
For one, if I were to call for mass returns of NT, that'd greatly decrease interest in rooting the NT, which makes it even worse. If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies. As I've mentioned, ask SuperCurio and his collaboration with Samsung.
I, for one, had a $100 gift card for B&N, so it's $150 NT versus $200 KF for me. Regardless, even without that giftcard, I'd still not go for KF when there's NT around, cause KF is just gimped and kinda useless.
Regardless, can we please return to the topic of this thread - I'm looking for someone's help writing a letter to B&N asking them for help achieving root for developers.
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances. Welcome to the world of SLACKTIVISM.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
e.mote said:
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
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Click to collapse
Dude, we get it. You're not happy. Return your NT and leave the NT forum. We're all just trying to have a friendly discussion here. There's no need to be so negative. Thank you.
Sent from my Nook Tablet using Tapatalk
... give us a copy of Bootloader unlocker!
Pleeeeeeeaseeeeeeee
They have a bootloader unlocker? I thought they were just going to system restores and stuff like that. Getting anything they have would be a huge benefit to the community.
To any of you B&N employee's if you don't feel comfortable publicly posting that stuff just pm a dev or really anyone on here you feel like. I'm sure lots of us wouldn't mind being the middle man(myself included).
…if you were work for Barnes & Noble, you're in less of a position to help anyone than we are.
What are you expecting, exactly? Someone to leak a signing key and they lose their job for a $250 tablet?
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
tamasrepus said:
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
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Click to collapse
YES!
Spot on!
come on! Who doesn't want to participate in a little corporate espionage?
tamasrepus said:
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah us android geeks not buying the ipad has really helped to make them realize to make their stuff more open and less commie.
By not buying and being silent, how is Barnes and noble going to get the message. Companies are far more likely to listen to paying customers. Remember nowadays XDA is a amazing resource for manufacturers. How many articles have been written about breakthroughs developers made at XDA. Thats free publicity and free development for them.
I am sure Barnes and noble pays somebody to check this forum, and others. That is why I suggested that i somebody wanted to leak something they could anonymously PM somebody on here and get it out that way.
B&N: get the message
I second and third and fourth that. B&N has two markets for their product, and if they purposefully make it very difficult to root the device, they are going to lose one of those markets. I'd buy a Nook tablet tomorrow if I were comfortable with being able to achieve a clean install of a rooted image, but without that, I'll likely go to another device. It would be a shame.
As mentioned before... the XDA crowd is not likely the market for this device due to the fact that the device is most likely lost leading.... It's in no way the interest of BN to provide any of the tools for you to do this.
Don't believe me? Look at the current sideloading situation... People are already on the Android/Amazon markets which technically means money out of BN's coffers...
trippap said:
I second and third and fourth that. B&N has two markets for their product, and if they purposefully make it very difficult to root the device, they are going to lose one of those markets. I'd buy a Nook tablet tomorrow if I were comfortable with being able to achieve a clean install of a rooted image, but without that, I'll likely go to another device. It would be a shame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In all reality they didn't make it hard to root at all. Root was achieved by modifying usb drivers and using a known exploit. B&N had plenty of time to lock this tablet down way more than it is. Even sideloading is super easy. The bootloader is another matter all together, still I have a feeling somebody will find a simple workaround
>In all reality they didn't make it hard to root at all.
I don't think B&N had much to do with the low-level stuff, just the top-level design. The locked bootloader as has been said was likely for Netflix HD cert, since OMAP4 already had that feature. They didn't need to do anything extra. Otherwise, it's the same custom layer on top of 2.x.
The NT even retained the 1GB user-space which is a carryover from NC. Some modicum of sense would've shown that you don't need 12GB for app space, and would've avoided the bad reviews. Per Occam's Razor, don't attribute malice when incompetence will do.
tamasrepus said:
What are you expecting, exactly? Someone to leak a signing key and they lose their job for a $250 tablet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quoted for truth. The M-Shield security setup that is locking down the bootloader uses a one-time-programmable e-fuse inside the cpu so that the key it's looking for or the logic to do so can never be reprogrammed. Unless I missing something in their setup I don't see how a bootloader unlocker would be possible. Instead they would have to give use their private key to sign our own files
The more I read about the locked bootloader, the more I regret purchasing the tablet. They have, however, made some promising progress with this tablet, and I haven't heard anyone say definitively that it is not possible to bypass this obstacle.
For the record, is the kindle fire's bootloader locked?
Rather than clutter up other threads, such as the blocking 1.41 OTA update thread, I propose we put thoughts/frustrations here. As such, here is what I think:
Upon thinking about this more, this is really just the final wedge that B&N put in place to separate the people here, versus the people who are locked into B&N content.
We/I had been hoping that maybe someday they would change their mind and open up the NT so it would act the way the NC would. But, this is a clear message to consumers on how they want to proceed with their product. There will be no unlocked bootloader in the future. There will be no use of outside apps from other markets.
I can't blame them for trying to make money. They put together a nice piece of hardware, and are probably making little to no profit on the hardware. The real bummer here is, for me at least, I would have likely purchased non-apps(see books) from B&N and used the software originally provided by them to view the books. But now with this update, I am basically forced to do the full bloatware removal, and I will get books through other means.
For me, the NT is more a toy for apps and less for reading. Utilizing the B&N app market, which as others have said, is very limited and often pricey, does not make sense. Could I spend some more money and get a full android tablet? Sure, but if I've learned anything from these forums in my short time here, its that it is fun to work together on tweaking something and making it better than what it was originally intended for.
Your thoughts?
I think it's only a matter of time before the devs figure out a way around their "block" of nonBN apps. All they did was take out the ease of sideloading out of the box.
I still haven't gotten a Nook Tablet. I still plan to. I have no doubt that this will be a temporary setback. The locked bootloader is, no doubt, a challenge. Rooting the device after this update, however, shouldn't be nearly as significant an issue, I wouldn't think.
I have the same feelings about the device - it will be a fun toy and useful device and will serve less as an eReader.
For the time being, I will be reading the forums to see what new developments come along in this drama.
CapsLockKey said:
I think it's only a matter of time before the devs figure out a way around their "block" of nonBN apps. All they did was take out the ease of sideloading out of the box.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It sounds like they already have, but the point remains that it was a slap in the face to anyone that has been previously side-loading apps and customizing their NT without rooting.
If you've read some of Indirect's posts before, i believe he debloats most if not all of BN's stuff. Changing the db values worked for the Nook Color, and i assume it's just a matter of hours before one of us work out a quick workaround to rescuing those who got bumped to 1.4.1. I suspect it's gonna be something like this:
1) Using SD card method to restore to 1.4.0
2) Identifying the culprit to push/pull OTA on the NT
3) debloat B&N footprint to minimal so that the NT will be a stable platform to research the bootloader issue.
I'm really surprised so many people start thinking returning their NT because of one minor update. As long as there's one copy of rooted NT among us, i think we'll be able to propogate and beat BN at their game.
I pulled this from the "How to block B&N 1.41 update" thread.
AdamOutler said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=20502705#post20502705
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Click to collapse
For my fellow XDA noobs, fear not and don't lose faith in the brilliance of this community.
Here is a fine example(see post above): AdamOutler is amazing and comes through for XDA often like so many others.
Watching him and Loglud give NT bootloader the business in the Development thread is impressive even though I don't fully understand. I see though that they are making progress. They prove that there are many ways to crack the NT nut.
Remain calm and keep reading.
HMG10 said:
It sounds like they already have, but the point remains that it was a slap in the face to anyone that has been previously side-loading apps and customizing their NT without rooting.
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Click to collapse
If I took offense at every manufacturer that has "slapped the face" of their market, I wouldn't own anything. I would live in the woods because the people that made my house cut corners to line their pockets. My shingles wouldn't be prematurely failing. I would have sold my Prius immediately when I found out about the cover-up of some very important safety information. I would start a class-action suit over the burst capacitors on my motherboard due to the manufacturer using questionable sources for their electronics. I would never buy a toy for my kids because most are made in China using questionable labor tactics.
If people choose to take this personally, fine. Return your devices. Please also take stock of what you own and what pains you go through daily because capitalism encourages these behaviors. Then, sit back and ponder how you, as a consumer, contribute to the issue.
Am I unhappy about the decision? Yes. I'd rather thumb my nose at B&N by being patient and using whatever new tricks are up people's sleeves to use the device in a way "I'm not supposed to be able to" than not even buying one. Does this make me a hypocrite by making a rationalization to own a device while still supporting the very practices that perturb me? Perhaps.
Moved my thoughts from the other thread:
I think B&N is going to be surprised at the number of returned NT's- I'm betting far beyond their 3% estimate. 3% is probably people like on this site, average/above average tech users. Well beyond that are many others who buy NTs based on a recommend from the 3%, who then just follow the instructions for sideloading/rooting.
Personally, I've recommended the NT to about 4 other people who bought as Christmas presents. If there will be a constant worry for them about sneaky updates wrecking their NT's, my only advice will be to return while they can and get something else. I recommended based on the NT's ONLY real advantages- that it can be rooted and sideloaded. It sucks, and now I regret recommending this, and from now on I won't. I don't mind being responsible for the NT I bought my wife for Christmas, but not anyone else's.
In the end, B&N and others who go this crazy locked down route will lose- more and more people are tech savvy enough to know they're getting the shaft. B&N needs to develop a better app store, like Amazon. People willingly put Amazon's app store on their devices, including the Nook. I wonder how many KF users willingly put B&N crap on their devices?
They think they can just force people into a crappy walled garden like they are Apple, but with a subpar app store, charging even for otherwise free apps. It's not gonna work, and unfortunately the NT will eventually sink in a sea of better tablets that aren't locked down.
I'm not so sure that people will be returning their NTs with this update. Most of us have had ours far past the two week return period. Even if we returned them, it would be for store credit.
sonicdh said:
I'm not so sure that people will be returning their NTs with this update. Most of us have had ours far past the two week return period. Even if we returned them, it would be for store credit.
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return window for "holiday" purchases has been extended to 01/31/12 if purchased between 11/14 and 12/31.
is it really worth returning it for a little reason like this? Heck, even Amazon have done the same thing in the past couple days. Granted you have the option of flashing a new ROM onto the KF but what about the people who have just bought it and it comes with the new FW or they haven't seen the post on the new FW?
I agree with most saying that B&N are doing what is best for them, which makes sense in a business aspect and everyone who bought this for a cheap colour e-reader have no concept about it. We get upset, someone finds a way to fix it, we move on to something else.
I too considered returning mine but A) it won't do me any good B ) Other "cheaper" tablet developers seem to be doing the same thing.
Final thought - Might as well keep it and patiently wait for something to change from here.
Being a total noob to all things android and not a very adept at computers, I was so happy to compare the Nook Tablet and the kindle fire side by side. I picked the nook tab because I saw that I could side load all the kindle book store and Amazon apps to the Tab. Also because of the hardware improvements.
Now I feel like I've been baited and switched. I do believe that I will be returning the Nook Tablet I have purchased. Before I do, I have a few questions. Please excuse my ignorance.
1. where do I go to buy the refurbished nook colors for 130.00 ?
2. If I buy an upgraded nook color, will I be able to load the kindle bookstore and my kindle books on to it?
3. Will I have access to sideloading all the things I want on the nook color?
4. How do I save the content I now have to move over to the nook color?
5. Will the 16gig SD card I bought for the nook tablet work on the nook color?
If all these things can be done with the nook color, then I must vote with my wallet and return my tablet if for no other reason than principle. I purchased a product from a company that performed a certain way and I wake up and find they have disabled the functions that mattered to me the most. I didn't rent or lease the product. I purchased it. It should be mine to use or modify as I please.
With my needs, it appears that the nook color will do me just fine. I don't plan on watching movies or TV on it.
As others have noted, my frustration is this... I bought (3 in total) and recommended several others buy over things like the Fire because one could sideload without rooting.
I'll be the first to state that I am perfectly content rooting my own NT (as I did for my NC previously), but I have two other NTs in my household as well. It is neither practical nor desirable to have to root all three and maintain all three for less savvy users who want software not available in the BN store.
The capability to sideload made the selection of the NT an easy choice. Blocking sideloading without rooting makes the choice to return two - if not all three - an easy choice as well.
I hope this helps with your questions.
1. where do I go to buy the refurbished nook colors for 130.00 ?
Ebay
Google Search
2. If I buy an upgraded nook color, will I be able to load the kindle bookstore and my kindle books on to it?
No. It has 1.41.
Go to the "Nook Tablet Android Development - [Stock Firmware]Restore Barnes & Nobel Nook 1.4.0 from SDCard" to understand how to undo.
3. Will I have access to sideloading all the things I want on the nook color?
Only with a rooted 1.4 or custom rom. Unsure how 1.41 might impact a custom rom or if this would even be an issue for custom rom.
4. How do I save the content I now have to move over to the nook color?
SD card and/or Dropbox or some other way to access later.
5. Will the 16gig SD card I bought for the nook tablet work on the nook color?
Yes from what I have read.
PlacidCat said:
I still haven't gotten a Nook Tablet. I still plan to. I have no doubt that this will be a temporary setback. The locked bootloader is, no doubt, a challenge. Rooting the device after this update, however, shouldn't be nearly as significant an issue, I wouldn't think.
I have the same feelings about the device - it will be a fun toy and useful device and will serve less as an eReader.
For the time being, I will be reading the forums to see what new developments come along in this drama.
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This update demonstrates that B&N is openly hostile to the dev community. Most manufacturers (even Apple!) take a laissez faire approach to outside development - they don't go out of their way to help, but they also don't go out of their way to break things. Kindle Fire updates, for instance, are a minor inconvenience for rooters, and rerooting is very easy.
A lot of people were willing to live with the locked bootloader because, in the end, you can still achieve most of what you want simply through sideloading. All the bootloader really curtails are those ugly themes that rom chefs seem to love so much. But stopping sideloading? Ugh, no way.
By doing this, B&N has proven that they are not happy with sideloading and I believe it is within their power to disable it permanently. And even if it is always possible to circumvent, you'll see the community here get smaller and smaller until there aren't enough people willing to bother.
So I would say do not get a Nook Tablet if you are not happy with using the pure stock experience without sideloading.
Gotta vent too. Blocking sideloading is a total f u in our faces. We also can't root it with ZergRush. What do we have left? Total waste of hardware if you lock it down like this. Might as well get the simple touch ereader. You can't call it a tablet if it can't do tablet things!
If it's going to affect their revenue stream, they're going to look for a way to block it. there's no getting around it. they don't have the ecosystem that Amazon has, so they can't afford to have people go elsewhere for some of the more mainstream apps that they have in their store.
the solution to that it that B&N needs to aggressively expand their app store and price at least close to the Android Market prices.
at least then, there's a reasonable retort, despite how we may feel. still, I paid for the device, I shouldn't have them decide how I should be able to use it.
Mama Luigi said:
<SNIP>
So I would say do not get a Nook Tablet if you are not happy with using the pure stock experience without sideloading.
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As I said, I'm waiting and watching. My "plan to" is not 100% firm. I'll leave it to the devs to decide if they want to stick with this or not and base my decision on their progress, not what people are saying now in frustration. There are still ways around the issue and OTA updates appear to be (hopefully) already circumvented if people installed Gapps as part of the basic root procedure outlined on this forum.
To simply say "do not get... unless you want stock" is quite premature. Again, I have bigger worries on my mind - if Toyota was late on reporting a safety issue that could have affected my life and my family members', I have far more reason to turn away in disgust. Will I turn away from a reading device that STILL offers a tablet experience if people follow directions just because of B&N's asshattery? No.
JoeM01 said:
If it's going to affect their revenue stream, they're going to look for a way to block it. there's no getting around it. they don't have the ecosystem that Amazon has, so they can't afford to have people go elsewhere for some of the more mainstream apps that they have in their store.
the solution to that it that B&N needs to aggressively expand their app store and price at least close to the Android Market prices.
at least then, there's a reasonable retort, despite how we may feel. still, I paid for the device, I shouldn't have them decide how I should be able to use it.
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Personally, I don't like being locked into a B&N app store. For my next tablet/phone/android device, it won't necessarily be a nook, but it will run android, therefore google market is still the best bet. Google market is there and established. B&N should focus on making profits via ebooks, magazines and other media.
Is the extended return policy specific to purchases at the B&N stores? I purchased mine at Best Buy.
Hey all, just spotted this article regarding a new Nook model coming this Spring. Not sure if it's legit, just wanted to spread the news...
Link: http://www.webpronews.com/barnes-noble-preparing-new-nook-2012-01
What do you all think? I'd be agitated if this turned out to be true...
Hopefully its just a mid to low end model. At this point the disappointment in the NT has me already eyeing the Kindle Fire 10 inch tablet rumoured to be out sometime this quarter. Hopefully they will have higher capacity models available this time round.
I don't know what price point they would be going for. The NC and NST are already covering a large swath of the market. With the NT at 250 (USD) and packing hardware to go toe-to-toe with most other 7" tablets I can't see what market they are planning to go after.
Barnes and Noble announces the Nook Supreme our new 10" tablet -- for the low low price of 500 (USD)? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
Probablya refresh of the touch. If it isa10 inch, the price needs to be under350
ShinnAsuka said:
Hey all, just spotted this article regarding a new Nook model coming this Spring. Not sure if it's legit, just wanted to spread the news...
Link: ...
What do you all think? I'd be agitated if this turned out to be true...
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Is there a revision to the Nook Tablet coming?
Eventually, we could safely assume. After all, the Nook tab is itself a revision of the Nook Color. But "soon?" No way. That sounds incredibly unlikely and uncharacteristically desperate for the second biggest competitor in the ebook reader business. (the iPad doesn't count because it's marketed as a full tablet.)
The current nook tab already outperforms the Kindle fire in terms of raw power and battery, so I don't think B&N would be dumb enough to revise something ahead of the of the curve like that, not this early in the game.
However, it does seem very possible for them to announce an altogether -new- tablet that's perhaps a different form factor than the NT, i.e. a 10 inch tab or something similar.
If it is another Tab then I'm seeing a locked-up tight boot loader, tighter than the NT. I have heard several people say "I use the NT with the Kindle app" this equals B&N going the way of Borders. B&N is not making very much profit off the Nook, if any. Their goal was to make money off the content purchased from their device. Maybe they would make more if they gave use what they promised, where's the B&N downloadable movies feature?
ChillFactorz said:
If it is another Tab then I'm seeing a locked-up tight boot loader, tighter than the NT. I have heard several people say "I use the NT with the Kindle app" this equals B&N going the way of Borders. B&N is not making very much profit off the Nook, if any. Their goal was to make money off the content purchased from their device. Maybe they would make more if they gave use what they promised, where's the B&N downloadable movies feature?
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Well, the good news is that nothing is really more or less "tight" when you get down to something like that. If the bootloader of a device is locked and not rewritable, devs just have to find an exploit for it. The time it takes to find such an exploit is variable and tends to depend on the efforts of the hackers, not the OEMs or Original Software Devs. Of course the hackers aren't guaranteed to be successful.
Back in the early days of Wii hacking, the devs for that project had a game-based exploit that was patched by Nintendo, but in the process of patching it there was another hole left for an exploit that didn't require using a game or any complex software at all.
If B&N make a new device, the security on it might be different, but I doubt it will be more or less difficult to crack than the Nook Tab. Like I said, any luck with cracking such a device will be up to the hackers, not B&N.
Mike_IronFist said:
Well, the good news is that nothing is really more or less "tight" when you get down to something like that. If the bootloader of a device is locked and not rewritable, devs just have to find an exploit for it. The time it takes to find such an exploit is variable and tends to depend on the efforts of the hackers, not the OEMs or Original Software Devs. Of course the hackers aren't guaranteed to be successful.
Back in the early days of Wii hacking, the devs for that project had a game-based exploit that was patched by Nintendo, but in the process of patching it there was another hole left for an exploit that didn't require using a game or any complex software at all.
If B&N make a new device, the security on it might be different, but I doubt it will be more or less difficult to crack than the Nook Tab. Like I said, any luck with cracking such a device will be up to the hackers, not B&N.
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My point of the post was more about time lines in finding an exploit, B&N seems to have locked the Tab more than the Color. I would expect them to know about XDA, read the findings, figure out were the leak was, and patch it. Thus making their next device more time consuming to unofficially unlock the bootloader. It's obvious that B&N wouldn't be doing the unlocking, no profit in doing such. For B&N it would actually hurt them, due to allowing the end user options to buy books, apps, movies, media else where. Then again, I hear B&N was lazy enough to use some codes from the "Color", and not even change the name of the device to "Tablet" within the code. So we might have the satisfaction to see some more laziness. They might use the same approach to the new device, allowing Devs to, revert back to their NT notes and instant unlock, that would be nice.
No matter what, reasonable pricing would be expected.