This is actually the second time I'm opting for a single core device (first being when I got my samsung captivate instead of the moto atrix which would have required a 1 month wait)
My logic has been that it took a long time for dual cores to really be worked into laptops/desktops well therefore I probably wouldn't miss too much with a single core tablet if I wasn't multitasking a lot.
So after reading http://www.anandtech.com/show/4463/the-htc-flyer-review/8
I've really began to wonder.. while I don't doubt the programming skills of the android creators or anything..
How much multi core optimizing is really going on? I have no doubt that the Tegra 2 processor can mop the floor with a single core in a lot of areas.. But, on the flipside.. the higher clockspeed seems to have quite a few advantages.. And outside of multitasking or apps that are seriously threaded well.. Seems like the benefits of dual core are a bit over rated..
You might not have threaded apps, but you would presumably multitask a bit on your phone, so one core can run a browser and the other core something else, etc.
Still, I don't think single cores are yet outdated, simply because none of the non-gaming apps really load one core that much anyway. If you wanted to crunch numbers, you'd use a PC. And if you're gaming on your phone, you wouldn't be multi-tasking.
Its just the way things work. Hardware always leads software that can actually take advantage of it by 6 to 18 months. That's why if you keep buying the next big things , you never actually get to use the new features. It's a marketing ploy a lot of times.
porcupineadvocate said:
You might not have threaded apps, but you would presumably multitask a bit on your phone, so one core can run a browser and the other core something else, etc.
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Click to collapse
That's the thing, there isn't much "something else" going on most of the time. Background synching of email and a few other apps; downloading a big file. What else? Most apps just get suspended in memory, and don't need to be actively "running". Multi core may make switching a bit faster, but that's really it, until we see apps optimized for multi cores.
Back to the OP's question, in a similar discussion on multi cores, one person on these forums mentioned that hardware always precedes software. I have to agree with that point. Hardware manufacturers will always sell what is on the bleeding edge, because specs and marketing buzzwords (which dual or quad core have definitely become) will always sell hardware. But software developers just want there apps to be compatible with the majority of the hardware being used. If most people have single core Android devices (huge majority do, right now), there is little motivation to spend the resources making the apps optimized for multi cores.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
I think a lot of people forget that if all you want to do is browse the web/email.. Even a computer that is old will still work well enough for basic task.. Example I'm typing this from a single core emachines that is a 2 ghz athlon processor.. My parents haven't upgraded, because it still works and still moves relatively fast for basic task.
Plus, there is a misconception that two 1 ghz processors = 2 ghz total clockspeed.. but, doesn't quite work like that..
Related
Just as the question states. I know the second core will sleep when not needed but say you launch an app, does the second core help load the app? The reason I ask is because I'm curious about the raw speed difference between the atrix and inspire. Now compairing the inspire running at 1.8 and the atrix seemingly stuck at 1 per core (I'm not saying the atrix wont ever be OCed but I'm just talking about what's currently available). I'm just curious if the second core will help the first with tasks. If it doesn't would that make the inspire technically way faster (obviously battery life may be an issue but this isn't a battery compairo)?
Thanks for any insight
I think you should start by knowing that overclocking ARM prroccessors gives little yield.
XOOM at 1.5 ghz scores only 500 better than a non-overclocked xoom on quadrant.
I'm going to try and simplify the answer for you.
Will BOTH cores be used? Maybe. First off, is the app itself optimized for dual core, or does it even need dual core / multithreaded capability.
Secondly, and I think more importantly, what is the rest of the phone doing. So, let's say you fire up your favorite app, the phone is still doing stuff in the background. Maybe it's checking email. Maybe Google Latitude is checking your location and updating. The point is - the other core will still be around to offload this work.
Now, WILL it go to the other core. Maybe. Maybe not. I do work on some big Sun machines, and have seen them use one or two out of 64 cores, even with massive loads and each core being used 100%, it refused to balance the load amongst CPU's.
Hope this helps.
mister_al said:
I'm going to try and simplify the answer for you.
Will BOTH cores be used? Maybe. First off, is the app itself optimized for dual core, or does it even need dual core / multithreaded capability.
Secondly, and I think more importantly, what is the rest of the phone doing. So, let's say you fire up your favorite app, the phone is still doing stuff in the background. Maybe it's checking email. Maybe Google Latitude is checking your location and updating. The point is - the other core will still be around to offload this work.
Now, WILL it go to the other core. Maybe. Maybe not. I do work on some big Sun machines, and have seen them use one or two out of 64 cores, even with massive loads and each core being used 100%, it refused to balance the load amongst CPU's.
Hope this helps.
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Click to collapse
Yea that's exactly like I figured, I was kinda going off Windows/Intel multi core setup. Even after dual+cores have been out for quite some time 95% of programs made still don't use more than one core (Most of those remaining 5% being very CPU intense programs PS, Autocad ect.). But I get what you mean, the one core will be dedicated to what your doing and not sharing cycles with anything else because core 2 is working on whatever pops up. So basically the Atrix might be a little slower at doing things BUT it will always stay the same speed with less/no bog.
Techcruncher said:
I think you should start by knowing that overclocking ARM prroccessors gives little yield.
XOOM at 1.5 ghz scores only 500 better than a non-overclocked xoom on quadrant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying Quadrant suck as it does with most phones or OCing the Xoom (and Atrix) wont really do much?
I already built an apk for testing CPU usage on both processors... When I get some free time, I'm going to turn it into a widget... Here's what I noticed:
Because of the current OS and less dual core support for apps, the phone kind of kicks certain tasks into using the 2nd processor. The APK i built reads the '/proc/stat' file and i've noticed that when the 2nd processor is being used it actually shows up in the file as 'cpu1'. However, when it's not being used the 'cpu1' line does not exist and you can default the 2nd processor usage to 0%. It seems like performing core OS tasks (like installing apps) kick the 2nd processor into use, which is what you can expect since froyo supports dual cores.
Like everyone says, I'd expect to see more dual core usage on 2.3/2.4 (whichever motorola gives) and when more apps are designed to kick certain threads onto the 2nd processor.
Just trying to figure out what's the pros and cons between a 1.5ghz single core and a 1.0ghz dual core. Like which one would be faster? Where would I notice these differences?
I'm trying to details decide between the flyer and the transformer.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App
While I see where you are coming from on processor speed, The processor wouldn't be what I would be most concerned about when choosing between the two. I'd be looking at the mobility issue. Flyer fits in my shorts pocket. It's hands free when not in use but available whenever needed. Transformer have to carry around in hand all the time or in a bag. It is added bulk, & I found when only using a 10" device I didn't carry it around everywhere with me. It was a couch surfer.
Back to the original question. In my experience with the Notion Ink Adam Dual Core Tegra, The Flyer blew it away speed wise when running single apps and in general operation. The Tegra chip starts catching up when running multiple processes, like switching between open internet pages and other apps all running at the same time. Majority of apps aren't built to utilize dual core for speeding up their processes.
Picking the Flyer or the view isn't about processors or operating systems it's about functionality and portability. The flyer will be there when you need it, the 10" will be on the couch when you need it.
Previous post answers it quite well. In general, a higher clocked single core CPU will be faster within a single app than a lower clocked dual core CPU (although design differences between chip manufacturers means that straight comparison between MHz is not always a reliable point of comparison). Just like with PCs several years ago, there just aren't enough dual-core phones around yet for app developers to support multiple cores in their apps. Where you will see the dual core excel, is switching between apps, running lots of background processes, etc. But eventually, as multi-core phones become more commonplace, app developers will likely add support into their apps.
Thank you gentlemen, nice to see those responses. Those replys helps me make the decision.
Thanks again,
Eyeandroid
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App
Be sure to click the "Thanks" button on the posts that were helpful!
Maybe this will make a little sense....
Another important factor in speed is the memory, not just memory as in ram but memory as in cached memory that is built into the processor. I'm going to try to make a little diagram.
p1-->L1--L2
L3- shared ---->Ram
p2-->L1--L2
So in this diagram p1 is processor one, p2 is processor 2, and all the L1's...etc are cache.
L1 is the fastest, smallest memory cache, memory size increases as you move to L2, L3, Ram, but memory speed slows down.
Basically everytime the processor has a new task it puts that task on a stack(in one of the caches). So the faster it can unload and reload that stack then the faster the speed. Thats where processor speed comes in. So a bigger L1 cache means it can store more tasks in its stack in the fast memory cache making the machine run faster(processor can access the tasks quicker)
Now this is why the Flyer out performs so many dual cores. As someone already mentioned, most applications aren't optimized for dual cores. That means that it can only take advantage of half of the combined L1. Then on top of that, it is only 1gz so it can't unload and reload the stack as fast as a 1.5 ghz can. Does that make a little sense? Ha.
I'm not exactly sure what the hardware structure is of the tegra2s, I doubt they have an L3 cache, I'm pretty sure (99.9%) thats a quad core thing, so they probably share the L2 cache.
My G Tablet which I have had since December 2010 and which has been running Froyo 2.2.1 since then respoinds incredibly sluggishly to touch input (or virtual keyboard input) when certain applications are running and using the WiFi connection.. These applications are: K-9 Mail, NewsRob and particularly Astrid.
My G Tablet runs Android 2.2.1 and Quadrant Standard tells me the ARM v7 processor has 1 Core (it should have 2, or??). and gives me a score of 1812.
First, I am confused by Quadrant finding only 1 core since I thought the Tegra 2 processor had 2 cores.
Second, how can the three applications above hog the processor core(s) to the extent they do? Don't the developers use the applications themselves and find this unacceptable? When multithreaded applications were first properly designed on the PC the rule of thumb was that the UI thread should always return in less than 1/10 second. Granted, many applications developed for Windows and by developers who lacked development skills broke that rule and the solution pushed by Microsoft and the hardware manufacturers were to sell faster PC whereas this could have been avoided by proper application design in the first place.
Bringing this back to the Android platform on the G Tablet, is this a system failing or are the three applications above so poorly designed?
Inquiring minds want to know.
When I was on froyo I put a weather widget on and it bogged everything down just as you explained. I removed the widget and pow back to normal.
hga89 said:
First, I am confused by Quadrant finding only 1 core since I thought the Tegra 2 processor had 2 cores.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It has, but, depending on load and usage, only one of them may be active to save on power. See this thread.
Second, how can the three applications above hog the processor core(s) to the extent they do?
...
Bringing this back to the Android platform on the G Tablet, is this a system failing or are the three applications above so poorly designed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you know that the system is slow because those 3 apps are hogging the CPU? It is best to find out for sure. Again, see my posts in the thread linked above. The top command should tell you how much CPU is being used by which programs.
Quick question. I was reading an article about the HTC One X. It supposedly will come with a tegra 3 quad core processor but not in the US. We will get a Snapdragon S4 dual core so it can have LTE.
Does this mean we are stuck with dual core Snapdragon's in the future? Why can't they add LTE to the Tegra 3? It seems like a pretty big difference in processors. If I were planning on getting the One X I would be pretty disappointed knowing there is a more powerful phone out there. Why do we get gypped compared to overseas??
I guess I'm just saying that there are a ton of different chips out there and I don't wanna be stuck with Snapdragon's forever just to have LTE.
SkizzMcNizz said:
Quick question. I was reading an article about the HTC One X. It supposedly will come with a tegra 3 quad core processor but not in the US. We will get a Snapdragon S4 dual core so it can have LTE.
Does this mean we are stuck with dual core Snapdragon's in the future? Why can't they add LTE to the Tegra 3? It seems like a pretty big difference in processors. If I were planning on getting the One X I would be pretty disappointed knowing there is a more powerful phone out there. Why do we get gypped compared to overseas??
I guess I'm just saying that there are a ton of different chips out there and I don't wanna be stuck with Snapdragon's forever just to have LTE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The S4 smokes the Tegra3 in just about every conceivable test. More cores ≠ better performance.
tekhna said:
The S4 smokes the Tegra3 in just about every conceivable test. More cores ≠ better performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. People have this notion that just because a CPU has more cores that it is going to perform better. That isn't always the case. It has to do with architecture.
tekhna said:
The S4 smokes the Tegra3 in just about every conceivable test. More cores ≠ better performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cores do help in more simultaneous tasks taking place though, no? So if you're running multiple tasks, the Tegra can handle more of a load than the S4 would be able to?
engsoccerfan said:
Cores do help in more simultaneous tasks taking place though, no? So if you're running multiple tasks, the Tegra can handle more of a load than the S4 would be able to?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure, but as anandtech said:
"Qualcomm's strengths are clearly single/lightly threaded CPU performance as Krait is able to offer some significant steps forward in that department. Tegra 3 can hold onto an advantage in heavily threaded apps, but I'm not entirely convinced that in phones we'll see a lot of that."
Basically, sure, yeah, there's a theoretical advantage, but what are you doing on your phone that necessitates four cores? And even then, the S4 doesn't perform significantly better or worse on multithreaded tests than the Tegra3.
By the time you need a new phone, there'll be quad-core Qualcomm processors. I wouldn't worry, at all.
Sent from my bad**s mofo HTC Rezound
tekhna said:
Sure, but as anandtech said:
"Qualcomm's strengths are clearly single/lightly threaded CPU performance as Krait is able to offer some significant steps forward in that department. Tegra 3 can hold onto an advantage in heavily threaded apps, but I'm not entirely convinced that in phones we'll see a lot of that."
Basically, sure, yeah, there's a theoretical advantage, but what are you doing on your phone that necessitates four cores? And even then, the S4 doesn't perform significantly better or worse on multithreaded tests than the Tegra3.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
It's like putting two engines in your car. It has the *potential* to go really fast, but unless your car is built to use two engines, it's not going to make any difference. Not the best example, I know. But it's simple.
As per the OP, we just don't have compatible LTE/Tegra3 combinations yet. Very bluntly, our LTE stuff sucks. (Which is why Apple passed on it with the 4S) Eventually, there will be an LTE modem that works with a quad-core chip, it's just not there right now. Like everyone else has said, in real world performance, you won't notice it anyway.
Nvidia is working on a Tegra 3 chipset with LTE built in I think I read.
Regardless, S4 is still a beast of a chip.
im glad the htc one isn't coming to verizon. it's stuff like this that makes our rezound outdated way before it's time. no one really "needs" a quad in a cell phone and im glad there isn't alot of quad core devices coming this year. both ces & mobile world congress were a big disappointment as far as im concerned.
IMO, the S4 dual core is an awesome chip. I am very skeptical about quad core battery performance. Due to technical advancements maybe they are superior. We will see soon enough.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
still no good with limited. if you're not doing heavy multithreaded work you won't see much difference plus 4 cores means more battery consumption vs dual
Tegra = fail. The market is doing a good job with over hyping dual core and quad core. Some people think it's almost necessary to have dual/quad socs , when other platforms like w7 run just fine on a single core.
isn't the second core on resound usually asleep a lot of the time unless needed? now you can have 3 cores taking a nap
lol.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
most dual core phones only use the second core as a back-up or for HDMI only
thus making it pointless to have quad-core phones at the moment i ran everything just fine on my Thunderbolt which was single core and it out performed my stock rezound.. and yes quad core i presume would be a battery drainer cuz dual cores don't really even have that good of battery life and single cores r the same
and snapdragon has quadcores already and they r in the midst of working on 8core chipsets but that wont be out till late 2013 early mid 2014 so stick with what u have
all good things take time
)
Comparing The Tegra 3 and the Snapdragon S4 is like comparing the AMD Bulldozer chips with the current Intel chips. They put more cores on a die and call it "The Fastest" but when the benchmarks start showing up it falls short of a lower end, more efficient chips. In theory more cores = more power, but in reality architectural is everything. All the hype from people being like "MOAR COREZ OMG FASTER" is a bunch of bull...
mighty_markus12 said:
im glad the htc one isn't coming to verizon. it's stuff like this that makes our rezound outdated way before it's time. no one really "needs" a quad in a cell phone and im glad there isn't alot of quad core devices coming this year. both ces & mobile world congress were a big disappointment as far as im concerned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
CES and MWC are just teasers anyways. Did you see the Rezound, Nexus, Razr, Razr Maxx, Transformer Prime, Galaxy Note, etc at those events last year? Nope, you saw the Bionic which 7 months later was a disastrophy, lol.
Did veruzon say they weren't getting the one x? I know there is a new verizon htc phone on the road map.
I'm curious about the snapdragon s4 just because it has lte integrated.
Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk
Well the One X has the same processor as my laptop 1.5 gh quad core. The only thing I think my computer really needs the quad cores for is intense games especially my wii emulator, which probably could run on One X since it has the same processor as my computer.
Ndaoud360 said:
Well the One X has the same processor as my laptop 1.5 gh quad core. The only thing I think my computer really needs the quad cores for is intense games especially my wii emulator, which probably could run on One X since it has the same processor as my computer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's also pretty dependent on the GPU. Not sure what kind of graphics card your laptop has, but that has a pretty substantial effect on gaming.
The One X has a great dedicated GPU, but it's still a phone. Not sure if it can really match up to an actual computer's graphics card, but I've been wrong before.
So in 2011 we have Tegra 2, in 2012 we have Tegra 3 so my questions is what will come in 2013? Octo-core or an improved version of quad core cpus?
Fasty12 said:
So in 2011 we have Tegra 2, in 2012 we have Tegra 3 so my questions is what will come in 2013? Octo-core or an improved version of quad core cpus?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well as octo core desktop CPUs havnt really caught on yet I would guess just better quad cores likely with more powerful GPUs
Tegra 3 is already very powerful, presuming the will increase ram and make them more battery efficient or even higher clock speed. 12 core tegra gpu is pretty amazing already and anything better must be godly
Sent from my HTC Desire using xda app-developers app
If u mean for mobile platform , Will we really need beyond Quad core, having seen how SGSIII is smoothly running with it, beyond that what more perfection ( yaa still more can be expected) and speed u will need to do ur work . As known Android use other cores on need basis , why u need to see ur 2-3 cores never used.. i think its just more curiosity n to have more advaced/latest will be the only reason to have such high cpu on ur mobile..
What I like to see is ups in RAM installed and lows in RAM usage by system...
Sounds like octo-mom..the debate.lives on.. battery vs performance...but to answer your question I think it would be hexa-core which is 6..let's wait and see what is to come...
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s-X-s said:
If u mean for mobile platform , Will we really need beyond Quad core, having seen how SGSIII is smoothly running with it, beyond that what more perfection ( yaa still more can be expected) and speed u will need to do ur work . As known Android use other cores on need basis , why u need to see ur 2-3 cores never used.. i think its just more curiosity n to have more advaced/latest will be the only reason to have such high cpu on ur mobile..
What I like to see is ups in RAM installed and lows in RAM usage by system...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Cores are at there peak right now. The amount of CPU power we have especially in the higher end phones is enough to acomplish many, many things. RAM is somewhat of an issue especially since multitasking is a huge part of android. I really thing a 2gb RAM should be a standard soon. Also, better gpu's won't hurt
Sent from my HTC T328w using Tapatalk 2
If they decide to keep going on the core upgrade in the next two or so years, I see one of two possibilities happening:
1) Dual Processor phones utilizing either dual or quad cores.
or
2) Hexacore chips since on the desktop market there's already a few 6-core chips (though whether or not they would actually be practical in the phones architecture, no clue).
Generally speaking whatever they come out with next will either need a better battery material, or lower power processors.
I mean I'm pretty amazed by what my brother's HTC One X is capable of with the quad core, and here I am still sporting a single-core G2. But yes I would like to see more advancement in RAM usage, we got a nice bit of power, but how bout a standard 2GB ram for better multitasking?
I believe 2013 will be all about more efficient quad-cores.
May i ask what going from 1gb to 2gb will improve? Loading times?
hello everyone, could you tell me what is cuad core?
Quad core means that a processor has four processing units.
Because there are more, that means that a process, theoretically, gets executed 4 times faster.
Read more about it: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-core_processor
Maybe i7 in mobile devices?
I'm sure it will stay at quad core cpu's, anything more is just overkill. They may introduce hyperthreading. It's going to boil down to efficiency.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using xda premium
I'd say the future lies in more efficient use of processors. Right now, Android is still far from optimized on multi-core processor-equipped devices. Project Butter is the start of a great movement by Google to optimize the operating system. Hopefully it spreads out to other OEMs and becomes the main focus for Android development.
Improving and optimizing current processors is the way hardware companies should go.
In my opinion, processor development is out running battery development. Optimized processors could reduce power consumption while preserving excellent speed and usability.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2
building processors on more efficient ARM architectures is going to be the way to go from what I see......throwing four less efficient cores at a problem is the caveman method to dealing with it.....looking at you Samsung Exynos Quad based on tweaked A9 cores.....
the A15 based Qualcomm S4 Krait is more efficient on a clock for clock core for core basis and once the software catches up and starts using the hardware in full capacity, less more efficient cores will be preferred
I dont see anything beyond quads simply because they havent even scratched the surface of what can be done with a modern dual core processor yet.......throwing more cores at it only makes excuses for poor code.....i can shoot **** faster than water with a big enough pump......but that doesn't mean that's the better solution
We don't need more cores! Having more than 2 cores will not make a difference so quad cores are a waste of space in the CPU die.
Hyperthreading, duh.
More ram. Got to have the hardware before the software can be made to use it.
With the convergence of x86 into the Android core and the streamlining of low-power Atom CPUs, the logical step would be to first optimize the current software base for multi-core processors before marketing takes over with their stupid x2 multiplying game...
Not long ago, a senior Intel exec went on record saying that today, a single core CPU Android smartphone is perhaps better overall performing (battery life, user experience, etc) than any dual/quad-core CPU. Mind you, these guys seldom if ever stick out their neck with such bold statements, especially when not pleasing to the ear...
For those interested, you can follow this one (of many) articles on the subject: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/intel-android-not-ready-for-multi-core-cpus/20746
Android needs to mature, and I think it actually is. With 4.1 we see the focus drastically shifted to optimization, UX and performance with *existing/limited* resources. This will translate to devices beating all else in battery life, performance and graphics but since it was neglected in the first several iterations, it is likely we see 4.0 followed by 4.1 then maybe 4.2 before we hear/see the 5.0 which will showcase maturity and evolution of the experience.
Just my 2c. :fingers-crossed: