I can't seem to find much on this, so I thought I'd ask the question. I personally use a Samsung Galaxy Nexus and was a previous owner of a Galaxy S1. I also sport an Apple Macbook Pro and I love the computer.
There's been a constant "reminder" from various articles how developing for iOS appeals to the developer more than doing so for Android.
This topic has spawned countless of times, and with the recent intro of Instagram to Android, that topic has been re-written once more to show why iOS is "dominant" among developers compared to Android. Article HERE.
Thing is, with all this talk about developing for iOS being better, I find myself asking "if that were true, then why do developers still develop for Android? If that were true, Instagram wouldn't even bother coming to Android...especially since it's free."
So what would make developers for Instagram want to make an app for Android when according to these articles:
Developing on Android is "harder" because it has to adapt to countless hardwares
Android developers make less than iOS developers
Do you develop for both iOS and Android? What's your take? What actually entices you to want to work on the Android platform?
It would be nice if a developer who works on both platforms can give some insights. Please no fanboy or anti-apple talk here...I am sure many of you Android users like me, would have had your friends who are iPhone users bring up such a topic on how they've read that developing for iOS is better, and you can't explain to them why people still make apps for Android cause there's little material online to covers that topic. I'm genuinely curious to know from a developer's perspective
Developers want to get their program out to as many people as possible so they develop for platforms where the customers are at. The two biggest phone operating systems right now are iOS and Android.
Developers choose iOS first because their is a lot less device diversity with iOS devices so developing an app is probably easier. It has also been shown that there is more money to be made selling iOS apps than Android apps which could be due to the fact that people who are on a tight budget may see an Android device as a better deal or may have a carrier that doesn't even sell the iPhone. Piracy is an issue on both platforms but it could be argued that Android is easier to pirate on since apks can be sideloaded without rooting where as iPhones have to be jailbroken. But sideloading apks is used for legit reasons as well, like testing betas, nightlies and other apps that aren't distributed through App Stores.
Android apps have to account for multiple screen resolutions, ratios, and densities. Most regular apps scale just fine. Games seem to be where there are the most issues and I really wish Google would address the issues. It seems each GPU type needs its own support (PowerVR, Nvidia, Adreno, etc). I really wish Google would implement something like DirectX so games can be played on any GPU with enough power. iOS has the advantage here because only a single GPU type is used, PowerVR I believe, so all games can be optimized for it. Couple that with the fact that iOS tends to bring in more money and this is why the game developers usually favor it over Android.
Thanks for the insight. I figured gaming would be difficult for developers but didn't understand why, I just naturally assumed that "if the app seems more complicated, it naturally equates to more complications making it run on various hardwares".
Am I right to say then that when tech reviewers write about how Developers favor iOS to Android, it's mostly pertaining to gaming?
What about non-gaming apps? Is reaching as many people as possible the only incentive to go Android? Take Whatsapp, or Instagram that recently came out...it's free on Android, it also has to deal with multiple hardwares (though now I'm assuming it's actually not as tough as it sounds to accomplish if the app's fairly simple)...is there an incentive for developers to create an Android App...cause the guys at Instagram or Whatsapp could have gone "Well there's nothing here for me, I'll just stick to iOS"...because from what I see, it looks like opening it to the Android market meant having to stress their servers with a sudden influx of users, which mean spending more money to maintain them so it doesn't slow down too much...it seems like a lose-lose situation from where I'm standing. =\
I guess for some apps, google ads are what keeps them going...like Draw Something. I do wonder though how Whatsapp and Instagram manages its upkeep when it doesnt have ads...and if the answer is that they use the money earned from iOS to manage their expansion, is it really worth it if the goal is just branding purposes.
If there is a market to reach developers will develop. Web developers had to put up with the terrible non standard supporting ie6 for years. It was a real pain to develop for but had a large user base that couldnt just be ignored. Android is the same way, developers go where they can reach the consumer. Luckily android its nowhere near as bad as ie6 was.
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spunker88 said:
If there is a market to reach developers will develop. Web developers had to put up with the terrible non standard supporting ie6 for years. It was a real pain to develop for but had a large user base that couldnt just be ignored. Android is the same way, developers go where they can reach the consumer. Luckily android its nowhere near as bad as ie6 was.
Sent from my Touchpad using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the input! From your take, it seems like developers make apps for Android not because they want to, but they have to.
Do you or any of the developers reading this, can testify that there are some ups to developing on Android as compared to iOS.
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions &
Read the Forum Rules Ref Posting
Moving to Q&A
lufc said:
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions &
Read the Forum Rules Ref Posting
Moving to Q&A
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Hi, sorry the topic may be [Q] but it's meant to generate comments and thoughts pertaining to the Android platform as per the sub header for Android General
Could it please be sent back to Android General? The Q&A section seems to be a place for people to post technical questions they need help solving.
Anyway, anyone else able to share their thoughts? Do you develop for both iOS and Android? It seems so far that people prefer to develop for iOS and lesser for Android, but they do it cause they have to as a means of reaching to the masses, but not really because they want to.
Anyone beg to differ? Do you have a reason why you actually prefer developing for Android over iOS?
Hi,
I'm a web developer, and when I decided to try mobile development, I made the choice to develop only for Android, for various reasons, but mainly because I'm not a fan of the Apple ecosystem.
This is not fanboyism here, I'm not bashing Apple, they make great products. But I prefer a fragmented ecosystem, with various companies, various devices, various app markets, etc. because this is a great source of opportunities. I also like the fact that android is open-source, leaving the availability to study the source code and hack around.
As for the difficulty to develop for various devices, I'd say that I'm used to it, being a web developer. Web devs are used to cope with various browsers (some of them being pretty old) and different screen sizes. See for example the mediaqueri.es site (cannot post link since I'm a new user)
thibaultj said:
Hi,
I'm a web developer, and when I decided to try mobile development, I made the choice to develop only for Android, for various reasons, but mainly because I'm not a fan of the Apple ecosystem.
This is not fanboyism here, I'm not bashing Apple, they make great products. But I prefer a fragmented ecosystem, with various companies, various devices, various app markets, etc. because this is a great source of opportunities. I also like the fact that android is open-source, leaving the availability to study the source code and hack around.
As for the difficulty to develop for various devices, I'd say that I'm used to it, being a web developer. Web devs are used to cope with various browsers (some of them being pretty old) and different screen sizes. See for example the mediaqueri.es site (cannot post link since I'm a new user)
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Thanks for your 2 cents! Am I right to assume that in fact, having to deal with different hardwares and screen sizes are actually a norm among developers before iOS came along? In other words, yes, Apple is right to say criticize that other platforms are harder to work with compared to iOS but that's because iOS is the exception among developing platforms where it's system is easier to work with?
spunker88 said:
I really wish Google would implement something like DirectX so games can be played on any GPU with enough power.
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But Android and iOS already have something like DirectX - OpenGL ES 1.1 and 2.0.
The_R said:
But Android and iOS already have something like DirectX - OpenGL ES 1.1 and 2.0.
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Thanks for the additional input...if there always is a direct standard like Open GL in both iOS and Android, what's the difficult part about manufacturing games for Android?
iOS required Apple computer to install their development environment. And You must pay 99$ per year for being the official iOS developer..
ayen1234 said:
iOS required Apple computer to install their development environment. And You must pay 99$ per year for being the official iOS developer..
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I'd actually say that it is worth it.
yeahyeahright said:
Thanks for the additional input...if there always is a direct standard like Open GL in both iOS and Android, what's the difficult part about manufacturing games for Android?
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I think its large number of the types of Android devices. It really isn't as simple as just supporting different screen sizes. Doing that is actually a really simple task using OpenGL.
With my own games I've experienced that what generally works on my test device won't necessarily work the same way on someone else's. For example, some devices support textures of any size while some devices have a constraint of the texture size being a power of 2. On many of my games which need multitouch, I've experienced that it doesn't always work the same on all devices either. On some it is downright broken while on other it just works fine.
There are many such other issues which you'd be aware of only after experiencing them.
The reason for this is the different hardware and the different software implementations that each phone manufacturer brings in. Even if the game "works" on a wide range of devices, there is always a different feel that you get when playing on a different device because of the hardware variations. You might get a good frame rate on a high end phone but have you tried playing it on a low end one? I've seen games from even the big publishers working fine on a high end phone but it just is completely glitchy on a low end one.
Now for a small developer with limited resources it can get really hard to test on and support as many devices as possible. This is one of the main reasons I feel that it can get really hard to develop games on Android. It just requires more effort if the developer wants to guarantee a good experience on a wide range of devices.
The other factor as stated before is that the iOS platform is more uniform. And moreover there are more people who are apparently willing to pay for your game on iOS than on Android. With one of my own games I've experienced that I've made more money in the last 10 days by selling it on the iOS App store than on Android in the last one year with ad revenues.
I actually started developing games on Android initially and one of the really big disappointments for me has been that I am not able to sell my games on the market(now Google Play) because Google checkout for merchants is only available in a few countries. This was the main reason for me to consider moving over to iOS. I think I could sell on a different market like the Amazon App store if I really wanted though.
Inspite of all that I'd say that Android is a great platform.
Wow thanks a lot for the insight! It's great to understand it from a developer's POV, especially one who works on both platforms.
I realise people do comment a lot about Android users less committed to pay for an app, I wonder why...I don't think it's due to their budget, my guess is that their afraid it may not work well on their devices...to that I think Google could really push hard and promote it's 15 minutes refund policy which I think a lot of users are not aware of....I use the 15 minute window a lot and it helps me to decide if something is worth my time buying or not.
I guess the "openness" of Android has allowed phone manufacturers to get really creative with their products (Touchwiz, Sense, Dual Screens, Qwerty Keypads etc) but at the same time, makes it harder for a developer to create stuff, probably even harder than creating stuff on a Windows Desktop.
Do any of you think that having "game settings" like you get on a Windows PC will help change this experience? Either one where the user gets to tweak the graphics (low, med, high) and performance, or perhaps one where the game will adjust graphics to the "recommended setting based on your hardware"? Is this even possible on Android or it's more complicated than you'd get on Windows?
yeahyeahright said:
Do any of you think that having "game settings" like you get on a Windows PC will help change this experience? Either one where the user gets to tweak the graphics (low, med, high) and performance, or perhaps one where the game will adjust graphics to the "recommended setting based on your hardware"? Is this even possible on Android or it's more complicated than you'd get on Windows?
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Yeah, I have actually seen a few games that do that, and it does help. But it also requires some extra time and effort on the developer's part.
In some of my games too, I've added some simple settings in order to change the control schemes, so that if one of them doesn't work for you, you could choose the other one. Graphically, though, my games are really simple.
yeahyeahright said:
Thanks for your 2 cents! Am I right to assume that in fact, having to deal with different hardwares and screen sizes are actually a norm among developers before iOS came along? In other words, yes, Apple is right to say criticize that other platforms are harder to work with compared to iOS but that's because iOS is the exception among developing platforms where it's system is easier to work with?
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Having to deal with different hardwares started to be a thing of the past, with the explosion of web apps. One platform for all, what a dream! Then came smartphones and tablets, and developing for a native platfrom became cool again.
Anyway, building for the web is still the only way to reach anyone with an internet access. The only problem with web apps is that it's harder to monetize. But the web's decentralized architecture is not a bug, it's a feature. That is what guarantees it's freedom and independance. You don't have such guarantees on a centralized market managed by a single company, whose first goal is profit.
Well, this post was slightly off-topic, sorry about that.
Thanks both of you for the really good insight. I guess Android is great as a supposedly "open" phone os, it certainly has a lot of hurdles to clear in order to please and entice developers the way iOS does, I'm not certain it can get there, but I do think they do make an effort, like the just upgraded emulator which shows Google's commitment to better developed apps (talk about timing!).
I'm certainly happy with my Android phone and from what I've read about the negative results developers gain from working on Android than on iOS, I take my hat off to those that stick around on this platform and try to make things happen. *clap*
=)
I choose Android for one reason. It's much cheaper. Only 25$ one time. iOS is 99$ every year
Related
Hey all, Just bought the g-tab as my first android device. I liked playing with the Xoom and iPads in the store, but wanted the same experience for cheap and knew that I would have to root this g-tab thing to unleash that awesome hardware value. So far I've easily put TNT Lite 4.2 and it really is much faster and more usable then the Tap N Crap that viewsonic shipped. Thanks a bunch devs for fixing what should have never been modded in such a crappy way.
My question is will there every be Android 3.0 available for the gtab? I just read an article about how google is trying to ensure oems don't mess up the UI like viewsonic did to protect their reputation. Since the gtab wasn't even an official android device, I'm wondering if Honeycomb will even be available to viewsonic or devs here to put on the gtab.
I totally agree with this article. Google shouldn't be as totalitarian as Apple, but this lack of quality control is making Android look bad in the public sphere (not to hackers of course) So did I just buy a dead end device?
As a new user - I still can't post links, so here's the pasted article from pc world:
Why Google's Tighter Control Over Android Is a Good Thing
Limiting availability of Android 3.0 code and apparent tightening of Android smartphone standards means that Google finally gets it about the platform.
By Galen Gruman, Infoworld Apr 6, 2011 11:30 am
Last week, Google said it would not release the source for its Android 3.0 "Honeycomb" tablet to developers and would limit the OS to select hardware makers, at least initially. Now there are rumors reported by Bloomberg Businessweek that Google is requiring Android device makers to get UI changes approved by Google .
As my colleague Savio Rodrigues has written, limiting the Honeycomb code is not going to hurt the Android market . I believe reining in the custom UIs imposed on Android is a good thing. Let's be honest: They exist only so companies like Motorola, HTC, and Samsung can pretend to have any technology involvement in the Android products they sell and claim they have some differentiating feature that should make customers want their model of an Android smartphone versus the umpteenth otherwise-identical Android smartphones out there.
[ Compare mobile devices using your own criteria with InfoWorld's smartphone calculator and tablet calculator. | Keep up on key mobile developments and insights via Twitter and with theMobile Edge blog and Mobilize newsletter. ]
The reality of Android is that it is the new Windows : an operating system used by multiple hardware vendors to create essentially identical products, save for the company name printed on it. That of course is what the device makers fear -- both those like Acer that already live in the race-to-the-bottom PC market and those like Motorola and HTC that don't want to.
But these cosmetic UI differences cause confusion among users, sending the message that Android is a collection of devices, not a platform like Apple's iOS. As Android's image becomes fragmented, so does the excitement that powers adoption. Anyone who's followed the cell phone industry has seen how that plays out: There are 1 billion Java-based cell phones out there, but no one knows it, and no one cares, as each works so differently that the Java underpinnings offer no value to anyone but Oracle, which licenses the technology.
Google initially seemed to want to play the same game as Oracle (and before it Sun), providing an under-the-hood platform for manufacturers to use as they saw fit. But a couple curious things happened:
Vendors such as Best Buy started selling the Android brand, to help create a sense of a unified alternative to BlackBerry and iOS, as well as to help prevent customers from feeling overwhelmed by all the "different" phones available. Too much choice confuses people, and salespeople know that.
Several mobile device makers shipped terrible tablets based on the Android 2.2 smartphone OS -- despite Google's warnings not to -- because they were impatient with Google's slow progress in releasing Honeycomb. These tablets, such as the Galaxy Tab , were terrible products and clear hack jobs that only demonstrated the iPad's superiority . I believe they also finally got the kids at Google to understand that most device makers have no respect for the Android OS and will create the same banal products for it as they do for Windows. The kids at Google have a mission, and enabling white-box smartphones isn't it.
I've argued before that Android's fragmentation, encouraged by its open source model, was a mistake . Google should drive the platform forward and ride herd on those who use it in their devices. If it wants to make the OS available free to stmulate adoption, fine. But don't let that approach devolve into the kind of crappy results that many device makers are so clueless (or eager -- take your pick) to deliver.
So far, Google's been lucky in that the fragmentation has been largely in cosmetic UI areas, which doesn't affect most Android apps and only annoys customers when they switch to a new device. The fragmentation of Android OS versions across devices is driving many Android developers away , as are fears over a fractured set of app stores. Along these lines, Google has to break the carriers' update monopoly, as Apple did, so all Android devices can be on the same OS page.
It is true that HTC's Eris brought some useful additions to the stock Android UI, serving as a model for future improvements. But the HTC example is the exception, and Google's apparent new policy would allow such enhancements if Google judges them to be so.
More to the point is what the tablet makers such as ViewSonic, Dell, and Samsung did with their first Android tablets. Their half-baked products showed how comfortable they are soiling the Android platform. For them, Android is just another OS to throw on hardware designed for something else in a cynical attempt to capture a market wave. The consistently low sales should provide a clue that users aren't buying the junk. But do they blame the hardware makers or Google? When so many Android devices are junk, it'll be Google whose reputation suffers.
Let's not forget Google's competition, and why Google can't patiently teach these companies about user experience: Apple, a company that knows how to nurture, defend, and evangelize a platform. Let's also not forget the fate of Microsoft and Nokia , who let their Windows Mobile and Symbian OSes fragment into oblivion. And let's remember that the one company that knows how the vanilla-PC game is played, Hewlett-Packard, has decided to move away from the plain-vanilla Windows OS and stake its future on its own platform, WebOS , for both PCs and mobile devices. In that world, a fragmented, confused, soiled Android platform would have no market at all.
If Google finally understands that Android is a platform to be nurtured and defended, it has a chance of remaining a strong presence in the mobile market for more than a few faddish years. If not, it's just throwing its baby into the woods, where it will find cruel exploitation, not nurturing or defense.
I didn't read your 1000 word post, but I read your topic. HC on GTAB has NOTHING to do with Google. It has everything to do with Nvidia abandoning GTAB.
The media has an idea in their head but they are shooting the messenger. Google has no choice when Nvidia stops producing source for the proprietary elements of the system.
Nvidia simply does not care about Harmony which is the hardware reference legacy devices are built on.
So this device is going to be left behind when it comes to the new android stuff?
It is interesting that you ask. With 318 posts here you have to have followed some of the threads discussing this before. At this point in time I don't think anyone knows. Lots of speculation, lots of pent up desire and the best Devs ever so I am sure there will be improvements, Will it ever make full HC who knows?? If you read your article carefully, even the stuff out there ( Zoom and Transformer) does not have complete Honeycomb.
I wonder what Honeycomb will bring to the picture that we don't have already. I have my gtablet rooted and running TnT 4.4 and it's sufficient for almost all my tablet needs. Yesterday I was reading Kindle books to the kids, streaming movies/music from my media center PC, watching youtube and browsing the net, all with nary a hiccup. I even got a cheapo keyboard leathercase to use for editing documents. If it's the UI, the current Launcher Pro Premium and GO Launcher EX are pretty nice alternatives.
I have played with the XOOM tablet at Best Buy and thought other than some pretty UI and a nicer screen, functionally I wasn't getting much for double the price.
samaruf said:
I wonder what Honeycomb will bring to the picture that we don't have already. I have my gtablet rooted and running TnT 4.4 and it's sufficient for almost all my tablet needs. Yesterday I was reading Kindle books to the kids, streaming movies/music from my media center PC, watching youtube and browsing the net, all with nary a hiccup. I even got a cheapo keyboard leathercase to use for editing documents. If it's the UI, the current Launcher Pro Premium and GO Launcher EX are pretty nice alternatives.
I have played with the XOOM tablet at Best Buy and thought other than some pretty UI and a nicer screen, functionally I wasn't getting much for double the price.
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Thats interesting. What ROM are you running? Most of my video is choppy, and I read in the dev forum this has to do with no video acceleration yet for the Gingerbread versions.
Good point - if it does what you want it to do then so what if it's not the newest... I'm a little embarrassed, but still rockin out to my first gen iPod nano a the gym
Guess I still wanted whatever tablet specific ui improvements that honeycomb was expected to bring.
nitefallz said:
Thats interesting. What ROM are you running? Most of my video is choppy, and I read in the dev forum this has to do with no video acceleration yet for the Gingerbread versions.
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As I mentioned in my post, my ROM is TnT Lite 4.4 with Clemsyn's kernel (v9). I can stream 700 MB avi files with no stuttering or choppiness. I use GMote app on the tablet and the GMote server in the media PC. My video player is Rockplayer, which is free from the market.
I too was just at Best Buy bout a week ago and messed around with the Xoom for a little bit. Quickly I realized why its been a couple years since I've been to this store (prices?!?!), not to mention the help asking me if I had any questions and if I was looking to buy the Xoom (they left me alone after proclaiming I was completely satisfied with my gtab).
The only real difference I could notice (which in my eyes was a big one) was the interface. Its definitely more "flashy" in looks and prettier for eye-candy, but no real difference outside of that, actually seemed to lag a bit; almost comparable to the gtab out of box.
Me personally, I'm in no hurry to see any kind of honeycreams equivalent make its way to the gtab. I'm more anxious to see gojimi release their vegan ginger Beta more than anything right now. Been counting the days (sometimes hours) since reading their update about him coming back from vacation, lets do this!
Closing thread - see this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1026411
Maybe I posted this in the wrong section,so sorry,asking to Zecanilis . Do anyone have an iPhone here? If so,anyone can tell why Android/iOS is better? I don't wanna know it,wanna know your opinions only
So,I prefer Android because it's opensource p) and because it's more "customizable" ha
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Wow, why do we need a topic like this ? Sorry, but if you write this on Google you can find thousands of them. This will only end with flames and fights. Nothing useful.
badeaioan said:
Wow, why do we need a topic like this ? Sorry, but if you write this on Google you can find thousands of them. This will only end with flames and fights. Nothing useful.
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Yeah,infact I firstly posted and already-existing thread and I had to change thread theme. I apologize for this but what could I do?
Sent from my LG-P500 using XDA Premium App
Actually, I like such threads, because they remind macfa...uh....macfans D) to keep quiet when it comes to comparisons to Android. Android is superior from almost any point of view.
metalboy94 said:
Actually, I like such threads, because they remind macfa...uh....macfans D) to keep quiet when it comes to comparisons to Android. Android is superior from almost any point of view.
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Yeah. But... I have to admit,for me AppStore games are better
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adobe ceo has said that apple can only dream of flash coming to ios because they are simply not going to make adobe flash of ios...
this is BIG + for android...
ciaox said:
Yeah. But... I have to admit,for me AppStore games are better
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Care to explain why? 'Cause both AppStore and Android Market contain their fair share of crap.
@ccdreadcc: True, although with the advent of HTML5 I'm not sure how long Flash support will continue to be an advantage of Android...
Android wins do to notifications the apps not games there more intgrated with the os an its changeable u can change everything an make ur phone look diffrent an i enjoy that no 2 phones look the same an iphone there identical but they do have better games an browser is better with pinching an zooming but my sgs is a little faster with apps closed but with stuff runing its laggy an ios is mostly smooth all the time but they dont have real multi tasking
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this old comic tells everything LINK
soberspine said:
this old comic tells everything LINK
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Exacly its ur phone u can do wat u plz tphone(therephone) 4 its not yours but u payed 1million 4 it
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You honestly can't go wrong with either and really depends on what you like. Honestly, I think why iPhone sales are so high is because people are misinformed about the product. Everyone gets it because they have been told to or think its cool since everyone has one, but at the end of the day both operating systems can do the same or maybe better(android).
I'd say both have their plus points. I've got my O1, which is my first android device. I love the ability to customise each and every part of it. We are all fans of this OS, we already know how great it is
But what I don't like about android, is the lack of quality content on the market, specially for low end devices like ours. I've got an iPhone 3GS too, and when you access the appstore on it, there's lots of great stuff out there.
Another downside is the lack of software optimisation. We got great hardware, with ****ty software: not a great combination. For e.g. my old iPod Touch 2nd gen still runs every damn single game I put on it without a drop of lagging, whereas we all know what happens on our O1. If we did not have such great developers here, we wouldn't be enjoying our O1 that much. :/
And before someone says something like, "you got a weak device, you should buy a SGS2 or whatever to feel the true power of android," I got one thing to say: each and every one of apple's products are optimised directly from manufacturers, their users dont need to depend on external developers. We can't say that much about our devices though.
Well my experience with iOS comes from an iPod Touch 3rd Gen that I've owned for 1.5 years, and my experience with Android comes from my O1 that I've owned for 2 weeks.
As others have mentioned I love my O1 and I think that Android as an "OS" it's definitely great, and I believe that if we were to compare iOS Vs. ANDROID only at the "OS" level, the Android OS it's superior essentially because it's a powerful, open source OS that allows you to go under the hood and tweak it or improve it, whereas with iOS is just a black box that you access only through APIs published by the manufacturer.
The thing is that comparing OS to OS does not makes much sense to the end user since what's more important is comparing "The Experience" of owning and using a phone with iOS Vs a phone with ANDROID, and at that level I think that iOS/iPhone definitely provides a much solid, cohesive and overall better experience to the end user (at least from my point of view):
1-) On iOS the OS and the Hardware are "One", since we have one company that manufactures the hardware and builds and optimize the OS to run only on that hardware, providing a longer life cycle for your product since the strategy of the manufacturer (Apple) is not focused on launching a new model every 3-4 months (as it is with Android phone manufacturers). Apple's focus is actually selling as much of the same model as they can over a period of at least one year.
2-) The Appstore even though is much more restrictive (than the Market) provides a much more controlled and predictable experience for App Developers, because they only have to worry about complying with the guidelines established by their development platform, and not with developing an App that will have to run as good as possible on hardware created by 8 or 10 different manufactures who have 100+ different phone models. Volume becomes an issue and so far developers have more success selling a 99 cents app on the Appstore than selling a $5 app on the Market. Take a look at this post from a renowned Game Developer talking about his experience about porting a hit game on the Appstore to the Android Market
Bottom line is that it all comes down to the Apps more than the hardware itself (we know that phones like the Samsung Galaxy S2 beats the crap out of an iPhone 4 and basically anything else), but all that powerful hardware, dual core processors and beefy GPUs can't do much if quality Apps are not there to take advantage of it, and so far Apple has done a better job in creating a suitable environment for developers at all levels: Programming, Marketing, Billing and Post-Sales Support.
When it comes to consumers (us) I definetely prefer the android cause i'm not willing to pay a sh1tload of money to buy a marketing bloat product which targets to rip off the ignorant gudget fashion victums. I want to be able to have a smartphone for 200 euros and to be able to customize it and use it the way I want and not the way they want.
And I don't want to hear a thing about better games etc etc cause if I want games i'll go and buy a psp and the total amount of money for low/mid-end android + psp will still be conciderably lower than an apple icrap
I will write my opinion, but everybody has an unique opinion so it may not matter.
As stated above, iOs and the hardware of the iPhone are one, they are designed and built as an entity. The result is the most powerful phone. Apart from the antenna problem the iphone had, the phone is perfect. And it will still be. The single-core iPhone 4 runs as smooth as dual-core android phones. Because android phones took everything that was good in linux, but also what is bad.
Android is for the guys that like customization, playing with their devices. You will never have to jailbreak an iPhone, as it's os is godlike anyway. The nasty part is that most of appstore games cost $ and some people may not be so willing to pay for every app they have.
Apart from the price, ioS is better than android, and i consider that anyone who disagrees is just sad he can't afford an iphone.That doesn't mean android is not good, because it is excellent, but still not quite at the apple's product level. Peace
Well I have also tried iOS, I own an iPod Touch 2G (MC, so it's the newer iteration). Sure, there are quality games by Gameloft & co. on the AppStore which also run alright on the iPod, but on 4.2 it gets really slow if you have any other tweaks on it, or if you activated multitasking and wallpapers.
What would definitely improve the Android experience is Gameloft getting their head out of their @ss and port their great games to lower-end devices as well. I really can't see what's the problem with minimum requirements for CPU and RAM if they really think 320x480 games would confuse customers, due to it being the most popular Android low-end resolution.
Other than that, Android is better than iOS simply because it allows you to do more stuff without hacks. First and foremost, the ability to use the phone as a mass storage device (Google should allow mass storage without additional drivers, it would be useful in certain situations, such as at school, where computers are usually blocked from installing drivers ).
@vador9: Sorry mate, but you're just as much of a d*ck as the other Apple fans. I can afford an iPhone, but that doesn't mean I WANT to spend that much money. Partly because the only reason for that price is the glass in it.
metalboy94 said:
Well I have also tried iOS, I own an iPod Touch 2G (MC, so it's the newer iteration). Sure, there are quality games by Gameloft & co. on the AppStore which also run alright on the iPod, but on 4.2 it gets really slow if you have any other tweaks on it, or if you activated multitasking and wallpapers.
What would definitely improve the Android experience is Gameloft getting their head out of their @ss and port their great games to lower-end devices as well. I really can't see what's the problem with minimum requirements for CPU and RAM if they really think 320x480 games would confuse customers, due to it being the most popular Android low-end resolution.
Other than that, Android is better than iOS simply because it allows you to do more stuff without hacks. First and foremost, the ability to use the phone as a mass storage device (Google should allow mass storage without additional drivers, it would be useful in certain situations, such as at school, where computers are usually blocked from installing drivers ).
@vador9: Sorry mate, but you're just as much of a d*ck as the other Apple fans. I can afford an iPhone, but that doesn't mean I WANT to spend that much money. Partly because the only reason for that price is the glass in it.
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Click to collapse
You can actually do Mass Storage without the drivers.
And please, do not insult any other forum members. Whatever his opinion may be, its his, it should be respected. Its only a sharing of opinion, not a war.
Android has a great user interface, its highly customisable, it offers whatever someone may want. It's just that rare are the devices which really makes android look so good.
To explain this, I'll take the example of our fabulous O1. Forget about the pricing, let's just analyse the phone in itself: a nice phone, with great features, and a wonderful OS. The OS can do pretty much everything. Now where is the problem? LG, LG is the problem. I agree we paid for a low end phone, but that doesnt mean it should contain ****ty bugs, like the screen lag for example. Even with gingerbread out, it still has not been solved.
Its often the device which holds many a problems, not the OS. This is where iOS has an advantage, it's been used only on a couple of devices, and both the devices and the OS are manufactured by the same company. This causes a great optimisation. For example again, on any iOS device you may not be able to send a file via bluetooth properly (limited by the OS), but you have a smooth touchscreen with no lag at all and you almost never have an error popping up now and then (from the manufacturer).
Moreover, when we say "Appstore offers a larger range of quality apps than that of Android Market", its not just about games. Often basic apps are of much lower quality on the Market, e.g. compare the Facebook app on both platform, and you'll see that the Android version is weak.
Overall:
Android wins when it comes to customisation and performance (provided you have a good device), and iOS has an upper hand when it comes to best user experience and high quality apps
( ) iPhone
( ) iPad
( ) iPad 2
( ) iPod Touch
(✔) iDon't have money
(Certainly not for overpriced hype from a vendor whose customer attitude is way worse than Microsoft's )
Vip_blast said:
You can actually do Mass Storage without the drivers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can? Please enlighten me, I thought it really needed the LG Android drivers for that.
Also, he insulted us first, by implying we all are too poor to get iPhones and that's why we're jealous and say iOS is worse.
This question has flooded my mind almost as much as Android has flooded the market...
Does anyone else think that Android has gone out of control? I mean there are literally dozens of devices announced / released every week, updates are a mess, developing is tricky due to all the different versions of the OS, screen resolution, cpu, gpu etc. The custom overlays is so common that the AOSP phones are almost non existant.
Manufacturers release a new phone each week since its an easy buck because its free and they know that with Android it cant keep a decent life span since its forgotten pretty much the day its released since all the new phone arriving or due to arrive, so asking for good support is a bit much nowadays. It seems like Android is becoming the new "featurephone OS" since almost every phone released runs it, so imo it loses its Premium feel since i can run most of the same apps in a crappy free budget device than a high end monster save some games and speed...
I have had dozens of android devices, from the HTC Touch port, to the EVO 3D, and frankly its hard to get exited for an android device nowadays since theres always something bigger and better almost immediatly instead of living out its life span before it gets eclipsed by something else. Thats why i like the iOS and WP7 approach since they release it in batches (cept apple because its 1) in a certain time frame, so you know you dont have to worry about being left behind or being behind the curve for a good while (i you care about that stuff like me) OS updates are a sure thing, app compatibility is all there and it just feels more integrated and organized
Android feels like mess actually, i have an android and really like the OS but honestly, its a touch friendly version of Windows Mobile in my eyes. It has all the features you would wanr, but performance is inconsistant, user experience is a mess, updates are hit and miss, and development is a headache
Sorry to rant so much, i really like Android actually, but got to the point that flooded the market with such a thing has ruined a good thing imo
Any imput?
s3nT Fr0m mY pYrAmId fLaVoReD gLaCi3r
*Fixed a few things
Well, I believe that's what android is about. Its like windows, many different computers run different versions of windows. I understand the "premium feel" aspect, but there's no alternative to Linux on phones besides android.
on the other hand, no one wants to be as confined as iphone. there is nothing unique between one iphone and another. they are both iphones whereas android has variety
It'll really be interesting to see what the future holds. Android could replace Windows and MacOS in a lot of ways.
Good post OP. I feel, as you do, that the fragmentation of the Android platform is a complete mess. It would have been nice if Google had more control over what happened to the OS on a manufacturer level. I'd have liked, at the very least, to have seen a minimum hardware requirement, an outright ban on carrier bloat and manufacturer skins too. I'm a purist though and some people buy HTC, for example, because they want 'Sense'. Personally i believe these skins should have been an optional component, perhaps available as a Market download.
Updates to the OS should have been arranged in a more consistent and controlled manner too, but with the diversity of hardware it has become a crap-shoot. Manufacturers are churning out phone after phone and most are horribly derivative. Of course, it's all about the $$.
I'm a fan of what Microsoft are doing with the WP7 platform and can only dream about a similar scenario with Android!
I think its all good.Its all about freedom.The freedom to choose you firmware,kernal,ROM or what ever.Others like iOS are to confined.Its great.
It is just because android is "opened". All manufacturers can produce and sell a phone running android. Like the computers, for example, you can't say to HP that "Why did you guys releases computers so fast? ASUS just released one yesterday!"
Also about what you think android is complicated is because of it's customizability (ability to be customized). When it can be very personalized, it gets a lot of settings. When it have a lot of settings, things get complicated. This is also why every android device is unique
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I've always been a PC guy and have used Macs in the past. I'm just used to Windows as opposed to an iOS. The fact that Android is open sourced, it allows for any user to customize it however they want.
I own an EVO 3D, and own an iPod Touch. There's endless possibilities on what I can do on the 3D versus what I can do on the iPod. I also know that the iPod can be jailbroken as well.
I do understand your argument as there are many different phones that come out each week/month. It gets overwhelming as to which device is better and what not, but it all comes down to what the end user wants for a device that fits their needs. A typical user just wants to be able to call, text, and get online. These typical users would like to see different styles, colors, sizes that fit their lifestyle.
Apple has a standardized iPhone/iPod and it receives an update once in a while. Granted, you can pick out a cover for it in different colors and styles, but it has the same UI look.
But I, on the other hand, like to tinker and like to customize the device of my choice.
Based on the fact that we're all members here on this forum by choice and are happily reading and writing...I'd say that there's no such thing as too much.
Although I'll be honest, I was dying to just say about this much "...................." (there I said it)
i agree that android is all over the place with late updates ect however i love the fact that its available in all flavors not just one flavor like you know who.
Android is just the hip thing. It's quickly becoming to mobile-devices what MS-DOS/Windows was to home computers. Only, the licensing is different
That doesn't mean there's too much of it though. Android is still linux at its core, and part of that is putting up with the disorganized community development.
I have been looking through the Android Marked for Netbankinig app's made for Android tablets and have only been able find one made by a bank in Australia.
While if you look through Apple App store there is bundle of Netbanking app's made for Apple Ipad.
It can't be because the Apple Ipad is more secure than lets say the Galaxy Tab 10.1 so I guess there must be something behind this trend?
Could it that Apple is paying banks, phone-directory companies, Movie Theater chains etc. so they release an App for Ipad before they release an app for an Android tablet?
I'm no Apple fan, but what is wrong with providing incentives for companies to develop apps for your product? As long as nothing illegal or unethical is going on.
kcaz said:
I'm no Apple fan, but what is wrong with providing incentives for companies to develop apps for your product? As long as nothing illegal or unethical is going on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing, but find it strange that not even an Offciel App for Android tablets have been released by Facebook. Combined with all these Bank, Cinema App made for the Apple Ipad, but almost none for the Android tabs.
Its not like Android tabs are new, they have been around almost as long as the Ipad.
Euroman28 said:
Nothing, but find it strange that not even an Offciel App for Android tablets have been released by Facebook. Combined with all these Bank, Cinema App made for the Apple Ipad, but almost none for the Android tabs.
Its not like Android tabs are new, they have been around almost as long as the Ipad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android devices are only just recently being considered as having any kind of relevance in the market, as shown by their sales. Apple had quite a head start as far as relevance goes in the market. When talking about relevance, I am talking about people spending development time on something that may not succeed. But now that sales have shown to be past Apple, it is quite obvious that Android is here to stay, and you can definitely see that most companies that are developing apps are doing them for both markets, AND as of the last couple of months, I have seen where new apps and updated apps have come out for the Android BEFORE Apple.
At present with Android the cost of developing/maintaining apps for two seperate UI frameworks is probably just too high. I believe that much of this will change once a majority of units get switched over to ICS.
Unified UI framework for phones, tablets, and more
Android 4.0 brings a unified UI framework that lets developers create elegant, innovative apps for phones, tablets, and more. It includes all of the familiar Android 3.x interface elements and APIs — fragments, content loaders, Action Bar, rich notifications, resizable home screen widgets, and more — as well as new elements and APIs.
For developers, the unified UI framework in Android 4.0 means new UI tools, consistent design practices, simplified code and resources, and streamlined development across the range of Android-powered devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-4.0-highlights.html
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions Thanks
Moving to Q&A
Jay Evans said:
At present with Android the cost of developing/maintaining apps for two seperate UI frameworks is probably just too high. I believe that much of this will change once a majority of units get switched over to ICS.
http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-4.0-highlights.html
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Click to collapse
+1. Fragmentation of the OS and lack of market penetration were the issues. Now that this is a two-horse race (sorry windows phone, symbian, and webOS) the standard will be to release apps on both platforms.
Hey Guys, just came across this article and thought it was a good read. Do you think Android will partner with Asus to make their own brand of tablets...will it be better for us as Android buyers in the future if Android had more control by being the hardware as well as software maker. or do you feel like this is turning them into Apple-lite
http://www.androidauthority.com/will-google-abandon-android-71483/
Seems like Android Authority is a bit desperate for clicks. That is all I got from it.
detta123 said:
Seems like Android Authority is a bit desperate for clicks. That is all I got from it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah basically..lol.
they taking the whole Asus Manufacturing Google Nexus tablet and spinning it into some crazy apocalyptic Android dying story. Android will be fine. Android growth has really actually just begun. we haven't seen nothing yet. Google needs a nexus tablet to instill confidence and optimism in Androids future. It can almost be guareenteed to attract more developers to android ecosystem. If android was dying, I'd seriously doubt they'd be making a tablet with Asus, restructured Google Play Store, and Making Google store purchases possible to be made online by anyone. All these recent moves Google has made is pointing to something big coming up.
Android for LIFE!
All of my current and future devices will continue to be android.
It is just way too much fun, IOS sucks.
If android goes away, I will go back to laptops.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk
I dont even want to read that article Android brings profit and is a huge thing worldwide. Why would you abandon something like this? Of course its not Google's biggest income generator but it has so much potential and it serves as competition to Apple.
Google deciding to do some hardware manufacturing? I really like that. They probably learn from it and be able to improve the software/hardware.
There is one thing though they could do to android imho. I like some of the 3rd party GUI's that come with android devices. For example HTC Sense. They add alot of nice widgets and great looking uniform base apps.
BUT. At the price of getting important updates like ICS half a year later? No... No.
For me there are 2 ways those companies could handle the situation. Make custom UI's optional. Let people use vanilla Android if they want fast upgrades and let them switch to custom UI's once their done. Or just open all the bootloaders and release all kernel source and stuff to XDA so people can make their own roms and updates (which usually are better anyway...).
Apart from that Android is just totally great.
clouds5 said:
For me there are 2 ways those companies could handle the situation. Make custom UI's optional. Let people use vanilla Android if they want fast upgrades and let them switch to custom UI's once their done. Or just open all the bootloaders and release all kernel source and stuff to XDA so people can make their own roms and updates (which usually are better anyway...).
Apart from that Android is just totally great.
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Click to collapse
Actually Google is already consdidering this. read several articles on it. it's a great idea bit one catch, Phone carriers would hate it. those companies add those GUI to devices to differentiate themselves from other similar devices. I'd rather have vanilla android experience and not have bloat ui on top of it. A GUI on top of vanilla android will never be faster out the box than a plain vanilla experience. one suggestion was to make the various companies GUI removable if the user chooses. they could use that companies GUI or go vanilla route or use one of the many launchers available on android. Usually a company GUI will be more integrated and stable than one from marketplace.
Yeah i've read about that too. i dont think custom UIs need to go away. Sometimes they're great. And with tegra3 phones coming out i guess the performance wont be such an issue anymore.
But i'd love to see some change in that situation. I think updates shouldnt be delayed more than 1 month. Not like half a year.
The article is the usual blog filler; title is admittedly clickbait. Then again, most news & blog sites have SEO'ed titles to varying degree. Yellow journalism used to be on the fringe. Now, it's the way to get clicks. That's the cost of "free" content.
Idle gossip aside, Google's strategy for tablet adoption has not worked. It will need to do something, and soon. We should know by Google I/O in June, if not earlier.
IMO, the rumors presently circulating--direct-sale of cheapo tablet & online store--aren't enough. The problems are more fundamental, and are myriad. To me, what's discouraging aren't the obstacles, but that I haven't seen any signal from Google leadership that they recognize the scope of the obstacles.
At any rate, Android won't suffer the fate of WebOS. It's entrenched on phones, and its open-source distribution will allow it to live on as a "hobbyist" OS, if nothing else.
Things move pretty fast in this mobile market, so we won't have long to wait, one way or the other.
Trolling done wrong.
A terrible excuse for either op-ed or journalism. sigh.
Seems this kid who wrote the article didn't get the point of android....
It amplifies all the Google services. It gives Google a extremely huge platform to present their products... it generates Google accounts which can be used for the almost infinite range of Google products. It helps to spread G+ and not to mention Google ad-words..
There is no essential need for a strong Google Phone brand... When you use it the normal way you pretty soon notice that Android is a Google product... you are asked to create a Google account, you have a ton of Google services pre-installed etc. .
Android could be a losing deal and it would still be worth the effort. Just because it spreads Google stuff. The power you have when 50% of the smart-phones world wide run with your is is enormous... Google does not have to worry too much about branding as long as the providers don't remove the Google-Products from it...
I see it like a commenter in the article, Google Tablet to fight the Kindle Fire... because it breaks the Google-branding... not so funny for Google...
>[Android] amplifies all the Google services. It gives Google a extremely huge platform to present their products...There is no essential need for a strong Google Phone brand...Android could be a losing deal and it would still be worth the effort.
These are all true. But IMO it misses the forest for the trees, the forest in this case being the next computing form factor, ie the tablet being a successor rather than adjunct of laptops. That should be the goal, not just an extension to sell more wares.
To be the next "computer," the OS has to do more, akin to the range of functions on desktop OS'es. Android, like iOS, lacks basic underpinnings--things like built-in networking, printing, support for peripheral devices, apps interoperability, etc etc.
The shortcoming doesn't affect Apple, because iOS has achieved critical mass on phones and tablets. Its success engenders 3rd-party support to address any deficit faced.
The other aspect not oft mentioned is that a bona fide OS needs support. One takeaway from a quick scan through these and other (official) Android forums is that OS support is grossly inadequate. As much complaints as there are in this forum, Asus is actually one of the better vendors for support. Users of Acer, Toshiba, and others, have given up on support. And these are enthusiasts. Think of how worse it would be for normal users.
The writing is on the wall: HW vendors don't have the expertise to support the OS. Google needs to do it. But with its current distribution philosophy, ie making AOSP code public and let HW vendors do what they will, Google can't do that. For it to support its OS, Google will need to follow the Microsoft path.
Getting its hands dirty with its own hardware may be a start, assuming Google better supports its product. But customer support has never been in Google's DNA, so I have my doubt that things would improve soon.
Google bought Motorolla, why would they need to partner with ASUS?
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>Google bought Motorolla, why would they need to partner with ASUS?
Because Asus can make cheap tablets, eg the rumored $199 tab, and Moto can't. Secondly, because Google still needs to maintain some degree of impartiality. With declining vendor support (on tablets), it can ill afford to piss off the few remaining.
e.mote said:
>Google bought Motorolla, why would they need to partner with ASUS?
Because Asus can make cheap tablets, eg the rumored $199 tab, and Moto can't. Secondly, because Google still needs to maintain some degree of impartiality. With declining vendor support (on tablets), it can ill afford to piss off the few remaining.
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Click to collapse
Agreed, the Motorola Xoom, great as it was(I owned one), was simply overpriced.
I do believe that in order to be widely accepted as being better than Apple, Google needs to seriously focus on getting better developer support. You can release the best tablet in the world, but if you do not have developer support, people will continue to flock to IOS. Lower the price of tablets while maintaining good quality standards, and gain developer support=win for Android
e.mote said:
>[Android] amplifies all the Google services. It gives Google a extremely huge platform to present their products...There is no essential need for a strong Google Phone brand...Android could be a losing deal and it would still be worth the effort.
These are all true. But IMO it misses the forest for the trees, the forest in this case being the next computing form factor, ie the tablet being a successor rather than adjunct of laptops. That should be the goal, not just an extension to sell more wares.
To be the next "computer," the OS has to do more, akin to the range of functions on desktop OS'es. Android, like iOS, lacks basic underpinnings--things like built-in networking, printing, support for peripheral devices, apps interoperability, etc etc.
The shortcoming doesn't affect Apple, because iOS has achieved critical mass on phones and tablets. Its success engenders 3rd-party support to address any deficit faced.
The other aspect not oft mentioned is that a bona fide OS needs support. One takeaway from a quick scan through these and other (official) Android forums is that OS support is grossly inadequate. As much complaints as there are in this forum, Asus is actually one of the better vendors for support. Users of Acer, Toshiba, and others, have given up on support. And these are enthusiasts. Think of how worse it would be for normal users.
The writing is on the wall: HW vendors don't have the expertise to support the OS. Google needs to do it. But with its current distribution philosophy, ie making AOSP code public and let HW vendors do what they will, Google can't do that. For it to support its OS, Google will need to follow the Microsoft path.
Getting its hands dirty with its own hardware may be a start, assuming Google better supports its product. But customer support has never been in Google's DNA, so I have my doubt that things would improve soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You make some interesting points, but I disagree that iOS is anywhere near being accepted as a PC replacement. In many important ways, Android is much farther along in this respect--access to the file system alone is one area. And, I think the idea that tablets will replace PCs is way overblown--having tried to use mine (even with the keyboard dock) as a replacement for my Windows notebook, I can testify that although some things are more convenient with tablets (like ebook reading, casual surfing, etc.), NOTHING is as efficient as with a "real" PC.
I could never do my job on any existing tablet, whether it's iOS or Android. I work with complex documents, use Photoshop for more than changing color tones, do some light video editing, etc. None of those are efficient (or even possible) on a tablet. Even the simple things like browsing, Twitter, etc., etc., are more efficient on a notebook or desktop. Again, a tablet is convenient--lightweight, long battery life, etc.--so it has its place alongside a real PC. But thinking it can replace a PC for most people is, I think, entirely unrealistic at this point.
Maybe that'll change in a few years, although I doubt even that. Seriously, who can imagine working EXCLUSIVELY on a 10" screen? And if a tablet becomes something that you plug into external monitors and keyboards and such, well then, ASUS is already mostly there with the Transformer series. And at that point what we'll have is just a more portable PC with external accessories. Once a tablet becomes complex enough in terms of network support, printing, peripheral devices like scanners, etc., then is it really a "tablet" any longer?
..........
demandarin said:
Actually Google is already consdidering this. read several articles on it. it's a great idea bit one catch, Phone carriers would hate it. those companies add those GUI to devices to differentiate themselves from other similar devices. I'd rather have vanilla android experience and not have bloat ui on top of it. A GUI on top of vanilla android will never be faster out the box than a plain vanilla experience. one suggestion was to make the various companies GUI removable if the user chooses. they could use that companies GUI or go vanilla route or use one of the many launchers available on android. Usually a company GUI will be more integrated and stable than one from marketplace.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was hearing at one point that Google was looking to simplify the custom GUI creation (just a custom GUI xml that the manufacturer can push that the vanilla OS will honor) so that even if there are large changes underneath by Google, there is no change needed by the manufacturer prior to release (assuming the manufacturer is only making GUI changes and not anything deeper).
sparkym3 said:
I was hearing at one point that Google was looking to simplify the custom GUI creation (just a custom GUI xml that the manufacturer can push that the vanilla OS will honor) so that even if there are large changes underneath by Google, there is no change needed by the manufacturer prior to release (assuming the manufacturer is only making GUI changes and not anything deeper).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that was what it was involving. thanks for pointing out those details.
Link doesn't work anymore!