Related
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
As far as I can tell, without any objective numbers comparing root performance, a lot of this rooting fad raves could just be subjective reported elation about being able to be different.
Granted, originally, the Gtab OS had some flaws. That's old news, get over it. How do the current roots compare with OTA version 3588? I'm somewhat shocked not one of the pack of geeks that have rooted their G tab hasn't backed up their raves with real numbers...
Granted, being rooted to the latest vegan might get access to the full Android market, and perhaps even future updates in Android... However, if I'm finding most of what I want at Amazon Android, is rooting worth the trouble until the roots and android versions stabilize? Show us the NUMBERS...!
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Also, do any of these roots do OTA auto updates or do root updates require a download & re-root? Just asking...
Jesus christ if you can't do a simple search for benchmark tests then I highly suggest getting the ipad2. I hear that the ipad 2 reads your mind so out don't have to do any search. We've only had a kazillion threads on this.
Edit
This is not to mention all the YouTube vids on this people have posted.
Edit again.
Actually, here are a few.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1047098&highlight=benchmark+2011
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12984546&postcount=9
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
Edit again.
I'm serious, I highly suggest the ipad 2 to everyone I talk to. Speaking as someone who repairs computers as a side job, I'm fully aware that most people want to be spoon fed everything, which is why the ipad 2 is the ideal device for most people. If people want to complain about nothing, let apple deal with them.
Thanks for the links.
However, as best as I can tell, they seem to verify that the OTA updated Gtablet is about the same speed as Vegan in the benchmarks when the CPU speeds are similar.
However, do the benchmarks used translate into much of relevance to speed of actually using the tablet to open programs, boot the tablet, download & open web pages. Stuff that people actually do with the tablet... Unless that's what the benchmarks are testing... But that info isn't provided in the links. Again -- weak...
The numbers and detail provided in these links deserve barely more than a C grade, if that... And what they provide seems to be at equal speeds, the current OTA updated gtab OS works fine... As long as you don't need the full Adroid market...
You Tube links? As best as I can tell, not one of them is an objective comparison with the OTA 3588 update gtab. They are just videos of vegan working... As far as real world numbers and comparisons -- Grade D-...
Where are the Grade A numbers? It's not that I don't believe the ROMs are not an improvement, it's just where are the numbers to support these raves?
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
You're not telling us what you want. You said you wanted numbers so I gave you a bunch. Then you say you don't want those numbers. So, I ask again. What do you want?
I'll be brutally honest on this one. Vegan isn't that fast. From all my tests, Calkulin+Clemsyn combo is by far the fastest custom rom+kernel for the gtab.
After trying out everything, I'm back to Calkulin+Clemsyn combo.
Would you like me to make a video of myself openning various programs and post it for you? What do you want?
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
You also have a misconception of what rooting is/does.
To become root in Linux/Android is to gain administrative privileges. In windows root would be called Administrator. Gaining root privileges gives you the ability to change system files and settings, NOTHING MORE. By itself it does nothing.
Now boys...
The fact is that if you need numbers, reports,testimonials or anything else to justify mucking around with the gtab thenyou probably should just get an iPad. Nothing to prove then -everyone "knows" its the best-no numbers needed! The gtab is for people that don't mind the hardware and software quirks as long as they have the freedom to mess around. Its not about the numbers -its about the experience.
[Q] Why should we ..?!
Droofus said:
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
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Click to collapse
Well, I am not sure anyone here is trying to sway you in one direction or the others.
Here is how things go in community forums like this one:
- People search for what they got in mind first.
- If they didn't find its either undoable or not that interesting for the community that no one bothered doing it.
- In both case those people are expected to either drop whatever they are wishing for or pursuit it on there own and then share their findings with the community.
In other words, why the heck am I supposed to go beyond whatever benchmarks readily available on the market to show YOU how good/bad are custom firmwares compared to stock ones when :
- custom firmwares are volatile and each couple of days there is a new rom or rom add on or a kernel released (am I supposed to maintain the stats for every single update released ? else how meaningful would be my outdated stats to you? when it represents a ROM that is no longer a candidate)
- the whole flash back and forth and in between roms is a 10~20 minutes process of YOUR time which would suffice to answer all your questions.
If you still need some usability tests (you can use your own stop watch to time through the videos) you might want to check here.
Best of luck,
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
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Click to collapse
I think this was the best answer.
The information you are demanding is indicating your ignorance. As was already stated rooting does nothing for performance. If you want numbers you can install each rom and test with each kernel setting whatever your heart desires. Its not likely anyone else even cares as most people only care about stability and a lack of lag
Droofus said:
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting itself does nothing other than giving you root - the speed of your device before and after rooting is identical.
Now, if you want to talk about the speeds with or without an overclocked kernel, or with a custom Froyo vs custom Ginger vs stock rom, as others have said there are plenty of posts out there.
Mine lasted on the stock rom for exactly one boot after opening the box - so I could copy on the bits to begin the rooting/custom rom flashing goodness.
cu_ninja said:
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
If I go to a notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards, the various card performances in various games are reviewed. The reviews are very professionally and objectively done with detail. Clicking on any specific card opens a detailed review of that card. This allows users to make decisions based upon what sorts of (graphic game) uses they might actually have.
It seems a similar but much smaller objective set of benchmarks could be performed on the various g tablet roots using a set of common uses in part noted above. It doesn't need to be as elaborate or detailed as the video card review site noted above. Just objectively testing a few simple end user tasks would seem to be adequate to get beyond the subjective raves that one commonly sees about this or that OS change...
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
So is this a religious thread, I see Jesus was mentioned.
Actually sometimes you modders act like it.
I'll get the other times later. Here is the startup time.
Droofus said:
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
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Click to collapse
Well, while I can see your point, I also have to point out the other side of the argument. I am an engineer. Last year, we got a college graduate who, from the outlook, had all the numbers and credentials. He graduated with almost a perfect gpa. Sounds nice, right? He had all the numbers. The problem was as soon as he began working with us we figured out very quickly that we had a book smart-absolutely no common sense person with us. I swear, he pulled me aside one time and asked me why they were "watering the concrete slabs" in the lab. It got worse from there. I had to explain to him very basic engineering concepts and applications like stirrups, slippage, etc.
This guy actually went through college getting the grades and everything without actually understanding any of it. He graduated with a structural engineering degree without knowing the very simple practical processes of curing concrete or reinforcing footings.
The point is numbers can be deceiving if you ignore annecdotal (aka common sense) evidence. You need both objective numbers and common sense to work in reality. Sure, I've heard plenty of annecdotal nonsense like creationist BS, religious miracles, and homeopathic crap. I'll give you that. But you seem to be on the other extreme side, which is to ignore all personal evidence and place all your bets on pure numbers.
I'm telling you now. We got both the numbers and personal evidence. I'll try to get them for you.
Doofus
I like the list of missing benchmarks you listed. Why don't you measure them and report back?
Droofus said:
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All those numbers are identical before and after rooting your device since nothing changes before and after root, other than you now have root access.
That was easy.
1
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Theres some more random numbers
While watching everyone bash eachother here has its entertainment i have some advice.
Droofus
1 i would recomend not comming into a community forum and bashing people who put a lot of effort into making the product you own better. These people don't get paid for the hours of work they put in.
2 if you don't like how thing are done around here take the time to be a good example and do it better. You clearly have an idea in your head on how to make a professional stastical representation of the roms so do it.
3 what some people are trying to tell you is that it is not all about the numbers. Some people want gingerbread features. Right now all of the gingerbread roms suck for video performance due to driver issues so i don't use them. I like the gingerbread features but i watch videos a lot so i use a froyo rom. Others really care about performance so they give up some stability and overlock.
4 people around here get upset when the same question gets asked over and over again. If you have done some reasearch reference other articles to show that.
5 this is a dual core tablet, what are you doing that you care that much about preformance.
This thing is faster than my netbook.
6 dropping your title on us just makes you sound pretentious. There are a lot of very intellgent successful people here who are not impressed by doctors or your past experience. If you have useful skills to the community don't brag just use them and people will be grateful.
7 people were a little rude about it but they are right. I tell people that if they want something that is easy go buy an ipad or a xoom. If you want something for under 300 then buy a g tab and understand that with some effort it can be great.
Everyone
1 relax... starting flame wars with someone who doesn't know their way around isn't going to help anyone.
I forgot to mention that traditionally us geeks are known for our lack of formal documentation.
P.s. while many of us proudly wear the badge of geek calling us a pack of geeks is a little adversarial.
I am wondering about the feasibility of constructing an external antenna for the razr. Primarily, is there any way of interfacing with the radio, perhaps through usb, that avoids taking things apart? I'm uncertain of the feasibility behind modding the hardware to any useful extent.
Thoughts?
Its possible to do most anything, however I wouldn't recommend this. You'd have to disassemble the phone, at least down the level of removing the back housing, as I believe the antenna is located with the camera bulge, though I'm not positive. The connector, if there is one, will be very small and delicate, though you may be able to expose the antenna wire itself in order to extend it.
Still, I have no idea how you would make an external antenna without cutting up the case, and everything is extremely narrow and delicate so I'm not sure where you could even pass it through, then you'd have to create some sort of housing for the antenna itself, and I'd imagine you'd want to firmly attach it to the device, seal it, and try to keep it from looking too horrible. That part would be extremely difficult.
I have some experience taking apart phones and other electronics, fixing and upgrading them, and even plan on doing the Maxx conversion as soon as parts are available, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this. At the very least I'd wait until spare parts are more readily available, as you'll probably break something. Again, where there's a will there's a way, so if you're comfortable taking electronics apart, study some teardowns, think about your strategy and get everything you need before you start tearing your phone apart, and realize that you do run a significant risk of irreparably damaging your device.
Why do you feel the need to do this? I've found the RAZR's reception to phenomenal, as good or better than anything I had back when phones still had external antennas.
I remember back in the days of me using my Nokia n95, there are modifications to improve GPS reception.. Which requires you opening the phone housing, solder some copper and let the copper wire run around the free space in the housing which improved GPS significantly to allow agps to be switched of but still able to get a lock acceptably fast.
But why on razr? My reception of radio and GPS is very good..
Sent from my Motorola Razr XT910
JehTeh said:
I am wondering about the feasibility of constructing an external antenna for the razr. Primarily, is there any way of interfacing with the radio, perhaps through usb, that avoids taking things apart? I'm uncertain of the feasibility behind modding the hardware to any useful extent.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What for? The signal quality is great by default. If not, you might just need to move.
seanmcd72 said:
What for? The signal quality is great by default. If not, you might just need to move.
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Click to collapse
Agreed
\\Carved into this thread by my RAZR//
http://android-gz.com
I am inclined to agree that it seems a rather tedious and unfeasible task to modify the actual inbuilt phone antenna. This is why I am curious if there is any other possible method of routing a signal to the radio; as best I can determine there seems to be no options aside from modifying the antenna itself.
I would like to note that I have no problems with the phone's reception as-is, but there are some special cases where the ability to attach a large passive antenna would be preferable to using a signal repeater.
LOL, I remember researching the exact same question when I first got my OG Droid.
@OP: Are you talking about Wi-Fi, CDMA (3G), LTE (4G), or just reception in general? I'm not certain, but I don't think it's even possible to build a multi-spectrum auxiliary antennae (especially for anyone who's not an actual engineer). Antennae design is practically an engineering discipline unto itself, and I'm willing to bet money that a home grown antenna would would actually make your reception worse due to interference/signal corruption. Plus, any time you add more than about a foot of antenna length, you have to put in an intermediary signal amplifier, or you'll start dropping packets like crazy. There's just way too much to consider (and trust me, I would freaking LOVE to find a way to do something like this). In the past when mobile technology consisted of more discrete components? Sure. Nowadays in the age of SoC (system on a chip)? Nah ah.
In terms of a USB antenna, I honestly don't know if anyone makes these. If they exist, or if you're such a ninja you manage to build one (let me know if you do :-D ) there's no way to make your device's radio interface with an antenna over USB. Even if it could be done, you'd have to fundamentally rewrite the way Android controls/interfaces with radios (plus write your own drivers), and after all that, you'd be killing your connection speeds by forcing the signal through a software interface prior to being used by the radio itself.
I hate to say something is impossible (we are talking about Android, not friggin' iOS), but let's just say this one is better left alone. That being said, if anyone out there has a degree in electrical engineering and could actually pull something like this off, I'd love to be proven wrong.
If you're having signal issues, I'd suggest researching the factors that can affect the specific connection you're having trouble with. When looking at reception, make sure to compare signal strength using dBm values and not something like how many 'bars' of signal are displayed. The best/simplest solution is to get a wireless range extender and/or cellular signal repeater. Not as much fun as building cool s*** from scratch, I know. Guess it depends whether you're looking for a destination or a journey.....
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
jptaktix101 said:
LOL, I remember researching the exact same question when I first got my OG Droid.
@OP: Are you talking about Wi-Fi, CDMA (3G), LTE (4G), or just reception in general? I'm not certain, but I don't think it's even possible to build a multi-spectrum auxiliary antennae (especially for anyone who's not an actual engineer). Antennae design is practically an engineering discipline unto itself, and I'm willing to bet money that a home grown antenna would would actually make your reception worse due to interference/signal corruption. Plus, any time you add more than about a foot of antenna length, you have to put in an intermediary signal amplifier, or you'll start dropping packets like crazy. There's just way too much to consider (and trust me, I would freaking LOVE to find a way to do something like this). In the past when mobile technology consisted of more discrete components? Sure. Nowadays in the age of SoC (system on a chip)? Nah ah.
In terms of a USB antenna, I honestly don't know if anyone makes these. If they exist, or if you're such a ninja you manage to build one (let me know if you do :-D ) there's no way to make your device's radio interface with an antenna over USB. Even if it could be done, you'd have to fundamentally rewrite the way Android controls/interfaces with radios (plus write your own drivers), and after all that, you'd be killing your connection speeds by forcing the signal through a software interface prior to being used by the radio itself.
I hate to say something is impossible (we are talking about Android, not friggin' iOS), but let's just say this one is better left alone. That being said, if anyone out there has a degree in electrical engineering and could actually pull something like this off, I'd love to be proven wrong.
If you're having signal issues, I'd suggest researching the factors that can affect the specific connection you're having trouble with. When looking at reception, make sure to compare signal strength using dBm values and not something like how many 'bars' of signal are displayed. The best/simplest solution is to get a wireless range extender and/or cellular signal repeater. Not as much fun as building cool s*** from scratch, I know. Guess it depends whether you're looking for a destination or a journey.....
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I should have mentioned that my sole concern in this case is the gsm band, and I am unconcerned with maintaining a data connection.
As far as designing the actual antenna goes, it is non-issue. I am currently studying electrical engineering myself, and my father has been working in the field for around thirty years and can assist with any hangups, if necessary. My primary concern, again, is interfacing with the device. If there proves to be no reasonable way to accomplish this, then I will likely end up constructing a signal repeater. Unfortunately, that is a good deal more tedious than a passive antenna and (hopefully) relatively little coding.
My apologies sir, I think you may know way more about this than I do. You're much better equipped than I am to tackle something like this. I studied mechanical engineering and computer science so I understand some basic EE principles (which I use to stumble through things like overclocking), but my strong suit is most definitely on the intangible soft(ware) side.
Anyway, what I said about using a USB interface still stands. There is a bi-directional pathway between your phone's USB interface and the cell radio (as seen in contexts such as internet connection sharing over USB), so in a highly theoretical sense it should be possible to programmatically facilitate the kind of communication you want. But the devil, as you know, is in the details.
There are a million potential obstacles, the greatest of which may be trying to procedurally disable input from the internal antenna while your passive auxiliary antenna is connected. If you're willing to sacrifice signal latency and a ton of CPU cycles you could theoretically run the radio input through an algorithmic filter before feeding it to the system (I doubt even a dual core mobile processor would be able to sustain a logic based signal filter and it's operating system simultaneously. If only the Razr had a Tegra 3 chipset....). Utterly no idea if this is doable. I would highly recommend reading what's relevant on the Android Developers site as a starting point, and then working your way back through the fundamentals of Linux/Unix (at this point you will know infinitely more than I do). That's the most efficient method I can think of for assessing Android as a viable platform, if you can't get a definitive answer.
It's worth mentioning that obtaining unadultered design specs for the SoC/board/handset/etc can be really hard to dig up nowadays unless you've got an inside source (anyone have a friend who's 'in the know' they'd like to share?).
Anyway, I can't believe I type this entire freaking thing on my phone...
To implement a modification like this would take a much higher degree of practical expertise in ground-up development than I possess, so I can't tell you much else. But this site is a breeding ground for world-class genius. If there is someone in the world who can help you, he posts on this forum.
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
I would not see the need? The radio/signal strength on the razr is among the best available. Motorolas have always been known for great signal strength/reception.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using xda premium
Adauth said:
I would not see the need? The radio/signal strength on the razr is among the best available. Motorolas have always been known for great signal strength/reception.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Lolz at Adauth...thanks for helping! Read any posts lately?
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
JPtheSmith said:
Lolz at Adauth...thanks for helping! Read any posts lately?
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Lolz" right back at you. Grow up.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using xda premium
JPtheSmith said:
My apologies sir, I think you may know way more about this than I do. You're much better equipped than I am to tackle something like this. I studied mechanical engineering and computer science so I understand some basic EE principles (which I use to stumble through things like overclocking), but my strong suit is most definitely on the intangible soft(ware) side.
Anyway, what I said about using a USB interface still stands. There is a bi-directional pathway between your phone's USB interface and the cell radio (as seen in contexts such as internet connection sharing over USB), so in a highly theoretical sense it should be possible to programmatically facilitate the kind of communication you want. But the devil, as you know, is in the details.
There are a million potential obstacles, the greatest of which may be trying to procedurally disable input from the internal antenna while your passive auxiliary antenna is connected. If you're willing to sacrifice signal latency and a ton of CPU cycles you could theoretically run the radio input through an algorithmic filter before feeding it to the system (I doubt even a dual core mobile processor would be able to sustain a logic based signal filter and it's operating system simultaneously. If only the Razr had a Tegra 3 chipset....). Utterly no idea if this is doable. I would highly recommend reading what's relevant on the Android Developers site as a starting point, and then working your way back through the fundamentals of Linux/Unix (at this point you will know infinitely more than I do). That's the most efficient method I can think of for assessing Android as a viable platform, if you can't get a definitive answer.
It's worth mentioning that obtaining unadultered design specs for the SoC/board/handset/etc can be really hard to dig up nowadays unless you've got an inside source (anyone have a friend who's 'in the know' they'd like to share?).
Anyway, I can't believe I type this entire freaking thing on my phone...
To implement a modification like this would take a much higher degree of practical expertise in ground-up development than I possess, so I can't tell you much else. But this site is a breeding ground for world-class genius. If there is someone in the world who can help you, he posts on this forum.
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
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Click to collapse
I was always under the impression that in the case of tethering, android was not so much handing over the entire radio connection, but instead providing an application with Internet access, which that application then "passed on" through the usb or wifi modules. If this is not the case, then perhaps there may be something here. Otherwise, I am uncertain if this is feasible. Essentially building a "virtual radio" strikes me as unlikely to work, due to, as you mentioned, the fact that it would likely require considerable processing power in addition to a great deal of programming work.
Adauth said:
"Lolz" right back at you. Grow up.
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Click to collapse
Dude, lighten up. I was just messing with you.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure you're right: without a lot of programming there's no chance of doing this (and probably not even then). Looks like you're only option is to go analog....BTW, is this project part of an assignment, or is it just for fun?
Sent from my Droid Razr Maxx
Not part of an assignment. And I've been looking into it, the choices are basically as follows:
-Build an inline switch that enables either the current antenna or an external port, into which an antenna can be wired
-construct a device that essentially mirrors the current antenna and supporting hardware, and *possibly* find a way to interface to this via software over usb
-use an active repeater
So I think it's safe to say that a (relatively) simple hardware modification is the ideal solution in this case.
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zel pretty neatly answered this, but I will also add that modern consumer electronics interact with the immediate environment far more than our pcs do. Light sensors, 3g radios, barometers, etc. are far less deterministic than our classic closed-loop pcs. Part of this perception of flux is based on this real flux, for example one of the core features people will discuss is call/modem quality, but driver tweaking vs. actual signal strength is a pretty fuzzy battle for anyone but an electrical/firmware engineer. And just like in the pc world, when you're talking under volting and over clocking your mileage will vary.
If you are methodical and read all the materials, your phone will operate tip top. It seems to me a lot (not all) of the variances often do boil down to the users configuration.
Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
I have fixed a lot of computers and have been flashing custom roms for a year and ill tell you, in my personal opinion, problems are 90% user error. If people would all install properly and wipe everything completely and follow everything they're told to do and read all possible material on what they're flashing they can, a huge portion of the problems would dissapear. But is that gonna happen? I hope so
Heck I make mistakes too. None of us are immune to screwing up right? Good luck all, happy flashing.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Eckyx said:
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
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Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
zelendel said:
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
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Just to chime in on the Windows thing - we buy a standard build HP computer at work for all developers. But if you put the same Windows disk in two of them and boot and install accepting all the defaults, there will always be slight variations in the way it configures itself between the two. It's probably the hardware detection that does it, but I swear you could get two of the same build lot and you'd STILL get something that didn't set up the same way. Sunspots? Power surge during the process? I dunno, but it does vary
You cant change the disk. Your network adapter has a MAC adress on it... windows will know something has changed. motherboard also has one.
A PC component are not the same at all.
You can buy a good I7 2600k or a bad I7 2600k. There are revisions of the very same model of CPU, memory, everything and its really hard to make 1 equal another.
Another thing is that one smartphone is a lot more delicate piece of hardware and the most important, has limited power to it components.
That makes harder to change anything on it. A small change could lead you to a failure.
just blame it on the ghosts in the machine and be done with it
votinh said:
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
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This is not the case. I have tested with two different EVO 4Gs and two different SGS IIs - of the same hardware revision, even.
I performed the same steps to root and ROM both of the sets of phones, and put the same ROM on them. There were no other apps installed, nor themes/addons. I then used each as my phone for a week, making sure that I installed identical apps and even synced app data.
Both performed differently. My i777 is the faster of the two, but my EVO 4G was the slower and more bug-prone.
Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but I at least am convinced. Take it as you will.
Also the phones are made with lower quality checks than desktop. ie I can oc my sgs 1 up to 1.6GHz but uv of -25, the phone well restart. But other people can't go more than 1.2 and cab apply a uv of -150 on the same step.
This is a fact. Think if every phone it's done with high quality checks the price of the device will raise pretty high.
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
sremick said:
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
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Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
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That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
sremick said:
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
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I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
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Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
The simple answer is, there is no answer. Its the nature of the process.
I've had one click roms fail the 1st attempt only to succeed the 2nd without even closing the Odin just reconnect the phone.
Either you accept that and have fun with it. Or stick to stock and move on.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
sremick said:
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
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No you're actually wrong because sometimes things CAN go wrong with flashing stuff. And modems in fact do work better in some places than others even though they try to make them universal it is very difficult to do that. Also, if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it? Riddle me that one. Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it?
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He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
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Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Ok Here is the thing. I have personally been flashing and making custom roms for phones as far back as the Motorola razor v3. I have multiple phone running the exact same firmware, set up the exact same way and the have run totally differently. If all phone were made equal then there would be no returns due to issues the phone had as they would have all run the same and acted the same as the units that the OEM quality control tested. Lets take the Black Jack 2 as an example. The BJII was a WM phone that would self corrupt the system/media folder. This prevented any ringtones from working and the OS had to be reflashed. All this running on Stock firmware. This didnt happen to all of them, but became a well known glitch to anyone that did cell phone troubleshooting and repair. Did you ever stop to think why OEM and carriers dont use the roms from places like XDA? This is because things here are always under development. There will always be bugs. In the end the developers are making things for their phones and are nice enough to share it for others to use. Some do keep making roms for phones they dont have as this is overly not hard to do. They do this just to be nice. Except for the hardware drivers most of the under lying OS is all the same.
If a dev cant reproduce it then there is no way for them to fix it with the way people tend to report bugs. (The wrong way without the proper info)
Now lets jump to the present. I have 4 phones sitting on my desk. 2 are the HTC Inspire and 2 are the Samsung Captivate. Both running the exact same rom and apps, but guess what. They run very differently. On 1 Inspire and 1 captivate, I can OC to almost double, while the other 2 cant handle more then 1.2 over clock.
One of them also doesnt like the AOSP based software while the others are fine.
As for your backing up and restoring. It can take a long time if you have a TON of apps. Flashing custom roms are not for everyone. If you dont have the time or the want to learn something then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
sremick said:
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
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I agree with your point about the dev/user relationship. It can get pretty hostile sometimes which is completely unnecessary. Recently, I've been trying to emphasize the respect rule, regardless of who you are. Patience and cooperation can go a long way. And as zelendel said, sometimes people do report stuff the wrong way, but there's no need to be rude about it. Again, patience goes a long way.
Back to the main thing though, I'm not entirely sure how 2 fresh-out-of-the-box phones would work with the same settings and ROMs, but as others said, environmental and external factors can stress the phone and stuff just goes wrong. My phone, for example, would not operate the same as a fresh-out-of-the-box SGS2, even if you put the exact same stuff on it. Stuff just starts freaking out, and I'm pretty sure my phone is having hardware issues :[
I had an argument with a friend the other day... I was arguing that a mobile device is a very sensitive thing because it allows to glean far more intimate information that may harm you very much and that people should be wary at what features are added to the phone. To which he replied "So what? What are the chances that an intruder would get remote access to my phone?".
Hrmp...
What are actually the chances of a non tech savvy but a conservative user (meaning that he largely doesn't experiment with completely unknown apps and he uses only the official markets to download) of getting someday his phone remotely accessed (at least once in his lifetime)?
If for instance we add a feature to the phone where it can destroy all of our home appliances- would it be wise? Is there a realistic risk involved? Why would someone want to destroy our possessions even if he gained entry?
Thanks
oy-ster said:
I had an argument with a friend the other day... I was arguing that a mobile device is a very sensitive thing because it allows to glean far more intimate information that may harm you very much and that people should be wary at what features are added to the phone. To which he replied "So what? What are the chances that an intruder would get remote access to my phone?".
Hrmp...
What are actually the chances of a non tech savvy but a conservative user (meaning that he largely doesn't experiment with completely unknown apps and he uses only the official markets to download) of getting someday his phone remotely accessed (at least once in his lifetime)?
If for instance we add a feature to the phone where it can destroy all of our home appliances- would it be wise? Is there a realistic risk involved? Why would someone want to destroy our possessions even if he gained entry?
Thanks
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Malware is widespread on Android phones. Just search the web for "android malware" and you can find plenty of information about these threats. You can get malware-infected apps from Google Play, and sometimes legitimate-looking apps have been repackaged with malware.by someone else.
An attacker probably is more likely to take personal information: Your contacts, passwords, email/SMS, banking and financial info, health info, etc. They can use it to steal money (e.g., from your bank account or by using your credit card), impersonate you for purposes of identity theft, or for other reasons.
Well that is the thing- my wariness comes exactly from searches like that, from subscribing to various security blogs, from reading coverings of Blackhat, Defcon and the myriad ways a phone can be intruded. Not just by downloading and running software but by browsing the web, plugging things into USB cables/outlets, weaknesses in assorted programs and tons of other possibilities.
The abilities are copious. In theory.
The device seems so inherently dangerous that I basically treat it as if it was hacked (well, try to. It's hard to minimize information pass through), but then there are links like that: http://bgr.com/2015/02/17/android-vs-windows-malware-infection/ where even people with some vested interest talk about practical numbers of less than 1%.
I suppose that as a random for-profit-hacker I too would be firstly interested in stealing data and money directly, but there are other kinds of intruders (like police/for-the-lulz/ combination of the 3 and etc) and I'm not sure if in practicality concerns over other types of damage (other than steal info) are substantial.
I did recognized one type of financial profit from attacks of physical damage though- ransomware, but I can't think of any other monetary gain.
I've got a few larger tablet type Android devices mounted around the house that I use for security camera viewing. That's the only purpose they serve and they're wall mounted. Next to a couple I have a $20 device from CostCo that displays the current time and current temp as well as lots of other BS I really don't need.
What I'd like to do is eliminate these secondary devices as right next to them is a much more powerful machine that is capable of more accurate temperature and what not. I'd like an app that will display the current time and current temperature in text form right over the top of other apps. I use IP Cam Viewer for my cam app and it has a time feature but the time is too small to see from a distance. Something that allows me to sort of hover the time in the middle of the display with the temp right above or below would be perfect.
I've used the Google Machine and haven't come up with much in terms of a solution that will help me accomplish this. It's probably something very simple that I'm not thinking of or finding... hopefully. It could also be that what I'm looking for is unique enough that it's not out there but I hope not.
Any help, thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Anyone have any ideas?
I'm not really sure why this got moved to "help & troubleshooting" as I don't really need help nor do I have a problem. I just want to know if an app exists that will allow me to do something that is relatively basic.
This site's countless subforums with nondescript descriptions has always been one of it's negatives IMO. In all the years I've been here I doubt I've got a 50% record of not having a thread moved to a section that doesn't seem to make sense. I've had zero issues on all other forums of all types. This is a problem unique to XDA for me.