Hi all
I am currently in the planning stages of developing a root security system for Android.
As everyone knows, there are security implications to rooting your phone etc. Untill now, I have used the normal means of controlling this (lock security, disabling ADB, Superuser.apk whitelist), but this is of limitted help if someone physically gets hold of your phone (while unlocked or ADB enabled).
There are a few things I would like to implement, and would like to gather some feedback on whether;
a) It will be of use to anyone but me, and
b) If anyone has any input as to the feasability (or has done any such work in the past)?
There are 3 areas I would like to lock down, somehow. It will not perfect the security, but will go a long way toward improving the overall security on rooted devices. I have not done much reasearch as yet, so some of this may be impossible. These are:
1) CWM recovery: Currently, CWM (and other recovery/pre-android resources) can be used to bypass almost anything you put in place to secure your phone. I would like to implement a password/passcode on CWM to lock out unauthorised changes. My personal preference would be to store this in /data somewhere it would be removed on wipe, and leave the option to wipe without passcode (so you don't end up with a brick if you forget the password), but lock out all security-sensitive operations like flashing. That way, someone could get to recovery, but would have to wipe data to be able to do anything usefull without authorisation.
2) ADB: Currently, even if your phone is locked you can get access to everything through ADB. The only way I currently see to do anything about this is to disable ADB when you are not using it, but this is irritating when you use it as much as I do. What I would like to do instead is either force a popup from Superuser.apk to grant root every time you connect, or implement a password which must be entered on connection. Both could be problematic, but I think forcing a confirmation (or even a check if the dev is unlocked) would be most useable, but my knowledge is limitted here. It may be that neither method is practical and disabling ADB is the only practical solution.
3) Superuser.apk: Everyone knows they should have security set up on their phones and not leave it lying around unlocked, but some don't like the hassle and most will occasionally forget to lock it. I would therefore like to implement securoty on Superuser.apk to stop (at least) new apps from aquiring root. This is the least important IMHO, but would be a further step towards improving security.
So, what does everyone think?
Questions or Problems Should Not Be Posted in the Development Forum
Please Post in the Correct Forums & Read the Forum Rules
Moving to Q&A
lufc said:
Questions or Problems Should Not Be Posted in the Development Forum
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry. I posted in Dev because this is the beginning stages of some development I plan to do, but fair enough.
I can only really answer the first question... I would be interested in something like this. I've actually taken an interest in mobile security recently, but I've constrained myself to existing products like avast and PDroid to give me some extra protection. When it comes to hardening these other components... I don't know enough about stuff at that level. But I would dig it.
Things like avast handle some things, like disabling debug if you remotely lock it. But it wouldn't solve things like securing CWM if the person simply reboots into recovery.
How do you disable ADB now?
please, do it!
drmouse81
As a poor ex-owner of a lost Samsung Galaxy Ace, I would love to have a password protected CWM recovery ... this would have propably saved my device (an have back my loved photos!)
My device was operator-locked, SIM was pin protected, screen was locked by pattern ... I rang to my lost mobile, taxi driver answered ... spoke with him ... asked him to return my phone I was offering rewarding. He laughted a lot!
Yes, there are apps to locate your terminal, ring loud, etc. But none solves the basic problem of someone that wipes the phone, puts a new bootloader, etc.
Most people do not knkow that IMEI blocking only works in home country of the SIM operator.
On the other hand, there were a lot of past discussions on this topic, but many people seem not to see this as feasible.
If you find a way to solve this, I am sure you will do a lot of money with companies, who are looking for a real solution to information loss on mobile devices.
Requirements: phone should be not functional. thieves would be able to use them only for spares ...
a) require password to make changes to bootloader / wipe (that is, recovery is also blocked)
b) encryption of user data (even in SD)
c) allow to swipe a new SIM, provide pin of the SIM, then block the phone but send SMS with new number and location. Show on screen customizable message (such as -- this phone is property of xxx and has been lost/stolen -- please contact owner at xxx or hand it to police --- )
Is this possible? Why previous discussions shut off this topics?
Best luck - would love to be guinea pig for this ...
CTone.
---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------
www dot cyanogenmod dot com slash blog slash security-and-you
Hi
I stopped posting here for a couple of reasons, the main one being I have been too busy. I'm still planning to take this on, but it may be a while.
The other problem is that, although it will help, it will not secure the device completely. There will always be ways around it. Manufacturer supplied tools will still bypass it.
As for your phone, did you contact the police? Knowing the taxi driver answered, they should have been able to get it back, or at least prosecute they b#####d!
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
You actually have a really valid and practical idea...
Have nothing to contribute here, just want to encourage you...
:thumbup:
If personal life does permit you, please do consider working on this
Typed using a small touchscreen
This is my first post to XDA.
I have been asking this question about various OS's in various forums, for past 18 months, and each time I ask it, the person who answers it spends a few iterations with me bending-over-backwards trying to avoid telling me what I want to know. I hope that this does not happen here.
I have a native C++ application. It currently runs on Linux desktop. It does many things that native C++ applications do, including sending raw Ethernet frames (mesh networking).
Obviously, if one of my customers tries to install this application on his/her Android device, there will be problems, and it won't work.
I am aware that a human being has the ability to root his/her phone.
I am aware that a human being has the ability to root his/her phone.
I am aware that a human being has the ability to root his/her phone.
Please do not send me a reply saying, "But your customer has the ability to root his/her phone!" :cyclops:
What I would like, is a smartphone, that is running Linux, that allows my customer to install a 100% Native C++ application, >>>WITHOUT<<< having to go through the process of rooting his/her phone. Ideally, the barrier-to-installation would be roughly equivalent to what s/he would experience on a desktop computer.
I am not concerned about the presence of X or any particular GUI subsystem, but I will definitely need access to all the normal system-level Linux primitives (multi-threading, asynchronous I/O, etc.)
Please do not send me a reply saying, You can ssh into the phone and install the app that way."
I would like to know if Ubuntu on smartphone allows a relatively naive user to install a 100% native C++ application that interfaces with the system-level primitives of Linux.
And finally, please note that I am not interested in finding a work-around to an engineering problem that I am having. I am trying to determine the maximum permissible degree of nativity of Ubuntu Touch applications when the application is to be installed by a naive user.
If Ubuntu touch does allow such native applications to be installed, I would be interested in getting an idea of the steps that a customer would take.
UT apps can be uploaded as a click app to the UbuntuOne store and then can be installed as easy as any Android app. You should be able to "sideload" click apps, but I never tried.
UT apps - that are not a web app - are written in native C++ using QT5/QML for UI.
UT apps are restricted by apparmour profiles, but that should not keep them from using multithreading or asynchronous I/O. You would have to test, if your specific requirements work.
There is only one way to answer all your questions: give it a try!
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
f69m said:
UT apps can be uploaded as a click app to the UbuntuOne store and then can be installed as easy as any Android app. You should be able to "sideload" click apps, but I never tried.
UT apps - that are not a web app - are written in native C++ using QT5/QML for UI.
UT apps are restricted by apparmour profiles, but that should not keep them from using multithreading or asynchronous I/O. You would have to test, if your specific requirements work.
There is only one way to answer all your questions: give it a try!
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:good:
Yes, you would need to change the packaging system from debian archives to click packages but that shouldn't be too difficult. If you run into problems with the Ubuntu SDK in connection with C++, have a look at this bug report and the mentioned fixes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtcreator/+bug/1215913
f69m said:
UT apps can be uploaded as a click app to the UbuntuOne store and then can be installed as easy as any Android app. You should be able to "sideload" click apps, but I never tried.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any idea at all what the user would see when trying to sideload a click app. [I am trying to set my expectations before diving in.] Would the user download package to a directory, then click on it, or?
UT apps are restricted by apparmour profiles, but that should not keep them from using multithreading or asynchronous I/O. You would have to test, if your specific requirements work.
There is only one way to answer all your questions: give it a try!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK, apparmour seems to be the focal point. I would be really interested (if any knows), how restrictive apparmour will be with a newly-purchased UT phone, and what control a naive user of that phone will have in allowing native C++ applications to run. I would check this myself, but I cannot do any significant coding (porting) until mid-March.
In particular, my app works with WiFi, and will need to interact with stock WiFi drivers (mac80211/etc.). I would like to know what I, and the user, can expect when s/he:
acquires my app from my web site
does something to install it (what would s/he do at this step?)
attempts to execute it (will apparmour block access to mac80211-like drivers)
RareHare said:
Any idea at all what the user would see when trying to sideload a click app. [I am trying to set my expectations before diving in.] Would the user download package to a directory, then click on it, or?
OK, apparmour seems to be the focal point. I would be really interested (if any knows), how restrictive apparmour will be with a newly-purchased UT phone, and what control a naive user of that phone will have in allowing native C++ applications to run. I would check this myself, but I cannot do any significant coding (porting) until mid-March.
In particular, my app works with WiFi, and will need to interact with stock WiFi drivers (mac80211/etc.). I would like to know what I, and the user, can expect when s/he:
acquires my app from my web site
does something to install it (what would s/he do at this step?)
attempts to execute it (will apparmour block access to mac80211-like drivers)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Applications should be installed from the Ubuntu app store. If you've just got the click package, you currently need to use the command line to install it:
Code:
sudo install <path to package>
sudo register --user=phablet <package name> <package version>
I hope that this will change though. (It's name is "click" package. )
RareHare said:
Any idea at all what the user would see when trying to sideload a click app. [I am trying to set my expectations before diving in.] Would the user download package to a directory, then click on it, or?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nikwen said:
Applications should be installed from the Ubuntu app store. If you've just got the click package, you currently need to use the command line to install it:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Technically it should be possible to install a click package just by clicking on a web link, if the web site serves a specific mime type, but this is not implemented.
Not sure about Canonical's policy on that, they might not like the idea. Otherwise they might implement it or at least accept a patch from a community developer.
RareHare said:
OK, apparmour seems to be the focal point. I would be really interested (if any knows), how restrictive apparmour will be with a newly-purchased UT phone, and what control a naive user of that phone will have in allowing native C++ applications to run. I would check this myself, but I cannot do any significant coding (porting) until mid-March.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, have not looked myself into the apparmour profiles too closely and don't have the time to do that right now.
However you can download a recent UT rootfs using the link below and have a look at the profiles yourself:
https://system-image.ubuntu.com/pool/ubuntu-cd4246419c888397c0d8debbd9f945219f40fc670220b7ac86753dc79eb73707.tar.xz
RareHare said:
In particular, my app works with WiFi, and will need to interact with stock WiFi drivers (mac80211/etc.).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think this is possible with any current or future off-the-shelf phone. Any OS will provide an abstract API for WLAN and require root to talk to the drivers directly.
As you say requiring your customers to root the phone is not an option, this seems to leave only one way out: you need to split off the low-level code of your app into a generic and secure API and submit it to Ubuntu Touch. If it is accepted, your app can use the new API.
f69m said:
Technically it should be possible to install a click package just by clicking on a web link, if the web site serves a specific mime type, but this is not implemented.
Not sure about Canonical's policy on that, they might not like the idea. Otherwise they might implement it or at least accept a patch from a community developer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course, it would technically be possible. Recently, I read a Google Plus post on that topic. Here's the link. (The interesting part is in the comments. Read all of them. )
They said that they'll offer those options in the future.
f69m said:
Technically it should be possible to install a click package just by clicking on a web link, if the web site serves a specific mime type, but this is not implemented.
Not sure about Canonical's policy on that, they might not like the idea. Otherwise they might implement it or at least accept a patch from a community developer.[
Sorry, have not looked myself into the apparmour profiles too closely and don't have the time to do that right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am in the same situation myself - I do not have enough time to experiment with apparmour, so I'm asking Ubuntu so that I do not have to search/guess.:victory:
I don't think this is possible with any current or future off-the-shelf phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So it would seem.
Any OS will provide an abstract API for WLAN and require root to talk to the drivers directly.
As you say requiring your customers to root the phone is not an option, this seems to leave only one way out: you need to split off the low-level code of your app into a generic and secure API and submit it to Ubuntu Touch. If it is accepted, your app can use the new API.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the low-level code, in my case, is the WiFi drivers. Also, I cannot imagine submitting a new API to Ubuntu Touch every-time a new model for accessing system-level primitives arrive. That would essentially loop Canonical into all of our engineering processes.
Your last comment actually is the crux of the issue. It points to a policy question, not a technical one, and one for which the answer is yes or no. I would imagine that, at this point, Canonical already knows the answer...
Principle:
There are numerous situations where it is good for a native application to not be sand-boxed, but have the same access to the Linux subsystems as a user would have on Ubuntu Desktop. There are situations where the owner of the phone would be sophisticated and comfortable enough that s/he can decide for himself/herself whether an application should be allowed root access to the phone. A fellow engineer called this the "welded-hood" principle:
Do people prefer buying cars that have the hoods welded-shut?
Many people might, but there are a significant number who would prefer not. As it turns out, an automobile can dangerous if the person opens the hood and starts working on things that s/he should not be touching (no pun intended). In the case of the fuel and braking system, it can even be lethal. But in the end, it was decided that, since we are all liberated adults, it is better to allow the customer freedom-of-choice.
What we have, right now, is a situation where the "hoods" on all mobile devices are essentially welded shut. I think that is unfortunate, because there is a huge latent demand for mobile devices that "still have their hoods", but if the user chooses to open the hood, with they key word here being easily, that would be his/her prerogative.
By the default, the system should be sand-boxed, but the user should have a facility that allows him/her access to install some native, system-level applications, easily, just as a user is allowed to tap-off her break fluid or bleed the fuel-line if she so desires, even though there are many warnings about what could happen if the application is installed. The "open-the-hood" operation would come with warnings that the user can choose to ignore, with resulting consequences.
Question:
Will Ubuntu Touch allow the owner of an Ubuntu Touch phone to side-load a native C++ application that interfaces with the various existing WiFi drivers in Linux, if the user decides for himself/herself, that it is OK for the application to interface with such drivers?
I have a feeling that the answer is no, but I am asking here to make sure.
RareHare said:
I am in the same situation myself - I do not have enough time to experiment with apparmour, so I'm asking Ubuntu so that I do not have to search/guess.:victory:
So it would seem.
Well, the low-level code, in my case, is the WiFi drivers. Also, I cannot imagine submitting a new API to Ubuntu Touch every-time a new model for accessing system-level primitives arrive. That would essentially loop Canonical into all of our engineering processes.
Your last comment actually is the crux of the issue. It points to a policy question, not a technical one, and one for which the answer is yes or no. I would imagine that, at this point, Canonical already knows the answer...
Principle:
There are numerous situations where it is good for a native application to not be sand-boxed, but have the same access to the Linux subsystems as a user would have on Ubuntu Desktop. There are situations where the owner of the phone would be sophisticated and comfortable enough that s/he can decide for himself/herself whether an application should be allowed root access to the phone. A fellow engineer called this the "welded-hood" principle:
Do people prefer buying cars that have the hoods welded-shut?
Many people might, but there are a significant number who would prefer not. As it turns out, an automobile can dangerous if the person opens the hood and starts working on things that s/he should not be touching (no pun intended). In the case of the fuel and braking system, it can even be lethal. But in the end, it was decided that, since we are all liberated adults, it is better to allow the customer freedom-of-choice.
What we have, right now, is a situation where the "hoods" on all mobile devices are essentially welded shut. I think that is unfortunate, because there is a huge latent demand for mobile devices that "still have their hoods", but if the user chooses to open the hood, with they key word here being easily, that would be his/her prerogative.
By the default, the system should be sand-boxed, but the user should have a facility that allows him/her access to install some native, system-level applications, easily, just as a user is allowed to tap-off her break fluid or bleed the fuel-line if she so desires, even though there are many warnings about what could happen if the application is installed. The "open-the-hood" operation would come with warnings that the user can choose to ignore, with resulting consequences.
Question:
Will Ubuntu Touch allow the owner of an Ubuntu Touch phone to side-load a native C++ application that interfaces with the various existing WiFi drivers in Linux, if the user decides for himself/herself, that it is OK for the application to interface with such drivers?
I have a feeling that the answer is no, but I am asking here to make sure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, your comparison is not quite correct. On most phones, there is a way for an educated user to open the hood. This is usually referred to as rooting the phone. Some companies will give you a tool to unlock the bootloader and thus open the hood easily, for others it is a little harder. But any user has the freedom of choice to open the hood or leave it closed.
Now, what you are asking for is something completely different. You are asking for a closed-source "black box" app to get access to what is under the hood, without the user ever opening it. This would mean opening the door for all kinds of malware, and I sure hope this will not be allowed by Ubuntu Touch . Let an educated user open the hood and place the black box there, if he feels comfortable about it, but don't make it too easy. A user that is not willing or not able to open the hood himself should also not be required to understand the consequences of installing a black box app with root privileges.
And there is another thing to consider: Ubuntu is heading for convergence, meaning the same app runs fine on a phone, on a tablet and on a desktop. This means apps must be written against an abstract SDK and not have access to the actual hardware.
Well, I am afraid we have hit a dead end now, unless you are willing to disclose more details on the functionality of your app.
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
83594455 676
And there is another thing to consider: Ubuntu is heading for convergence, meaning the same app runs fine on a phone, on a tablet and on a
desktop. This means apps must be written against an abstract SDK and not have access to the actual hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think my native, system-level app would not only run on all versions of Ubuntu, regardless of device, but most versions of Linux, on 100's of different hardware devices, without changes to my code. So actually, I would be accessing a standard Linux software interface.
Well, I am afraid we have hit a dead end now, unless you are willing to disclose more details on the functionality of your app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure. I would like to send and receive raw 802.11 frames from user-space utilizing the various standard Linux 802.11 system-level API's for mesh networking. My application is entirely user-space, and would run on any stock Linux kernel. My field of work is wireless communication, so naturally, if someone were to offer me a mesh-networking packaging as an alternative, I could not use it - my goal is not to have a mesh network for mesh networking sake, but to create a mesh network using my own user-space algorithms. In other words, I really do need access to the 802.11 drivers.
You can run every system command from your app using C++: http://askubuntu.com/questions/288494/run-system-commands-from-qml-app
The sudo password is "phablet". You could also ask the user for it if it was changed. You can pass it like this:
Code:
echo phablet | sudo -S <my command>
That might help you.
You could also ask in the IRC channel for Ubuntu app development (search the internet and you'll find it). Some Canonical people as well as some awesome community members will surely answer your questions. (But tell us the result, please.)
nikwen said:
You can run every system command from your app using C++: http://askubuntu.com/questions/288494/run-system-commands-from-qml-app
The sudo password is "phablet". You could also ask the user for it if it was changed. You can pass it like this:
Code:
echo phablet | sudo -S <my command>
That might help you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That works for the development images and community ports, but I am afraid if you buy a pre-configured UT phone (once they are available), sudo will not work. At least I would be surprised if a company would give full warranty for a device with working sudo.
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------
RareHare said:
I think my native, system-level app would not only run on all versions of Ubuntu, regardless of device, but most versions of Linux, on 100's of different hardware devices, without changes to my code. So actually, I would be accessing a standard Linux software interface.
Sure. I would like to send and receive raw 802.11 frames from user-space utilizing the various standard Linux 802.11 system-level API's for mesh networking. My application is entirely user-space, and would run on any stock Linux kernel. My field of work is wireless communication, so naturally, if someone were to offer me a mesh-networking packaging as an alternative, I could not use it - my goal is not to have a mesh network for mesh networking sake, but to create a mesh network using my own user-space algorithms. In other words, I really do need access to the 802.11 drivers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, never really used the user-space network link interface, but I believe it would be possible to grant the required capabilities to a click application.
You would have to figure out, exactly what capabilities your process needs to run this as a non-root user. Then the right place to ask for supporting this would be the Ubuntu Phone mailing list.
Just a Tip: You should present a very strong use case to get this kind of capabilities. The benefits of using your user-space algorithms should be plain, even to someone just scanning over your email.
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
f69m said:
That works for the development images and community ports, but I am afraid if you buy a pre-configured UT phone (once they are available), sudo will not work. At least I would be surprised if a company would give full warranty for a device with working sudo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When nikwen made the suggestion, I was happy for maybe 2-3 seconds, but then caught myself, because I suspected this.
[Notice how I am saving myself enormous amounts of time and frustration by avoiding downloading the SDK, opening my compiler tool-chain, and experimenting., and discovering all the things that you are telling me as we go along (especially about apparmour). Yes, I am very proud of myself for saving myself so much time by asking questions here. :angel:]
So my question still stands:
Under the assumption that my customers (doctors, scientists, etc.) are mature/sophisticated/responsible/whatever enough to know that the application that they are about to install on their smartphone (mine) is potentially very dangerous, but they are still interested in installing my app, and that they are uninterested in going through the manual process of rooting their phone or engaging in any other type of significant manual reconfiguration, what are my options?
Can Ubuntu Phone to be the OS-of-choice for this situation, or am I out-of-luck?
RareHare said:
Under the assumption that my customers (doctors, scientists, etc.) are mature/sophisticated/responsible/whatever enough to know that the application that they are about to install on their smartphone (mine) is potentially very dangerous, but they are still interested in installing my app, and that they are uninterested in going through the manual process of rooting their phone or engaging in any other type of significant manual reconfiguration, what are my options?
Can Ubuntu Phone to be the OS-of-choice for this situation, or am I out-of-luck?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe my second answer and your post crossed? But anyhow, here are the steps you can take:
1) Figure out the minimum set of capabilities your process needs to run as a non-root user.
2) Write an email to the Ubuntu Phone mailing list, describing the required capabilities and a convincing use case that motivates the engineers to have a hard look into it.
Honestly, I think the chances are slim, given the kind of capabilities you probably need. But Ubuntu Touch is probably your best bet of all the OSs out there.
EDIT: Mind that Ubuntu Touch uses a read-only rootfs, with only some config files being writable (via bind mount) and apt/dpkg is not supported. Your app must be running as a click package as a non-root user, but I believe it is technically possible to elevate an app process with certain capabilities. It would be your job to convince Canonical to make the policy decision to support it and to make the effort of implementing it.
EDIT2 (you see, I am giving it some thought): Not sure, how your business plan looks like or if your app makes this approach feasible, but another option could be to open-source your basic algorithms and try to have them included into Ubuntu Touch. Then cash in on an app to make the features easily accessible.
f69m said:
That works for the development images and community ports, but I am afraid if you buy a pre-configured UT phone (once they are available), sudo will not work. At least I would be surprised if a company would give full warranty for a device with working sudo.
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------
Hmm, never really used the user-space network link interface, but I believe it would be possible to grant the required capabilities to a click application.
You would have to figure out, exactly what capabilities your process needs to run this as a non-root user. Then the right place to ask for supporting this would be the Ubuntu Phone mailing list.
Just a Tip: You should present a very strong use case to get this kind of capabilities. The benefits of using your user-space algorithms should be plain, even to someone just scanning over your email.
Sent from my TF300T using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm...it would be a bit weird for me to justify the benefits my user-space algorithms to Canonical. My app is not an open-source app. I guess I should have mentioned that first. In any case, I can say that I am "experienced" in this field, and my colleagues, at least, are experts in the field, so if the question is whether I am mistaken in thinking I need this capability, the answer is probably no.
However, you do have me intrigued regarding the granting of capability for a click application. My guess is that this would have to happen within the context of Ubuntu Store and not any other way or?
I ask because it is not yet definite that we will choose Ubuntu Phone. That is what I am determining now. I would hate to get into a situation where we have to "work with" Canonical to get access to the Linux API that we need, which is why I was suggesting putting the decision into the hands of the user. I would also like to avoid "lobbying" Canonical for a feature. It would be more efficient for us if Canonical would simply tell us whether they are going to allow it or not, to what extent, and what would be involved.
Again, what we are asking for is pretty straightforward - access to the standard Linux WiFi drivers from user-space.
There's really not much more to it. I was hoping that, based upon the assumption that we actually need this, that Canonical would be able to give us an answer.
[P.S. Yes, our posts got crossed. ]
RareHare said:
Hm...it would be a bit weird for me to justify the benefits my user-space algorithms to Canonical. My app is not an open-source app. I guess I should have mentioned that first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I somehow guessed it would not be open source, and probably my EDIT2 to my last post (crossed again) is not an option. But make sure to read my first EDIT, it might have helpful information.
I think the question is not, if it is a benefit to Canonical directly, but if it is a benefit to potential users of Ubuntu Touch. The API support you need might be helpful for other applications too.
RareHare said:
However, you do have me intrigued regarding the granting of capability for a click application. My guess is that this would have to happen within the context of Ubuntu Store and not any other way or?
I ask because it is not yet definite that we will choose Ubuntu Phone. That is what I am determining now. I would hate to get into a situation where we have to "work with" Canonical to get access to the Linux API that we need, which is why I was suggesting putting the decision into the hands of the user. I would also like to avoid "lobbying" Canonical for a feature. It would be more efficient for us if Canonical would simply tell us whether they are going to allow it or not, to what extent, and what would be involved.
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Any decision taken by the user must first be implemented by Canonical, or there is no way for the user to make that decision. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on UT app development and the UT SDK, working mostly on low-level things like porting UT to my own device. But, as an example, it should be possible to have an API that creates a sub-process with elevated capabilities (there might be a more elegant solution). Still Canonical will have to implement that and to do this, they need some kind of motivation. The motivation could be a good use case that shows potential for other applications or indeed "lobbying" them directly (which probably means to send them some money).
RareHare said:
Again, what we are asking for is pretty straightforward - access to the standard Linux WiFi drivers from user-space.
There's really not much more to it. I was hoping that, based upon the assumption that we actually need this, that Canonical would be able to give us an answer.
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I have not really used those APIs, but I assume that the kernel capabilities needed for this are usually granted to the root user only. I am pretty certain that UT will not allow you to run a process as root, but as mentioned above, it should be possible to create a subprocess with certain elevated capabilities.
f69m said:
Well, I somehow guessed it would not be open source, and probably my EDIT2 to my last post (crossed again) is not an option. But make sure to read my first EDIT, it might have helpful information.
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OK.
f69m said:
I think the question is not, if it is a benefit to Canonical directly, but if it is a benefit to potential users of Ubuntu Touch. The API support you need might be helpful for other applications too.
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Well, the API that I need is definitely helpful for other applications. Namely, it is helpful to any application that already uses it. And there are many such applications that use the 802.11 WiFi drivers that come with Linux.
Any decision taken by the user must first be implemented by Canonical, or there is no way for the user to make that decision. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on UT app development and the UT SDK, working mostly on low-level things like porting UT to my own device. But, as an example, it should be possible to have an API that creates a sub-process with elevated capabilities (there might be a more elegant solution). Still Canonical will have to implement that and to do this, they need some kind of motivation. The motivation could be a good use case that shows potential for other applications or indeed "lobbying" them directly (which probably means to send them some money).
I have not really used those APIs, but I assume that the kernel capabilities needed for this are usually granted to the root user only. I am pretty certain that UT will not allow you to run a process as root, but as mentioned above, it should be possible to create a sub-process with certain elevated capabilities.
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OK.
I am going to send an email to Canonical asking if they could articulate, clearly, in a manner that a Linux C/C++ software engineer can understand, their policy on native application development. Here's what it currently says on their Wiki:
Which applications do run on Ubuntu Touch?
Ubuntu Touch is primarily designed to support web apps, and native apps programmed in qml and javascript or C++. As it is a real linux, of course all non graphical applications run equally as on any other linux system. You can ssh to Ubuntu Touch and run any console based application.
X11 is not supported (so far) so all GUI standard applications will not run.
This is slightly confusing, because it gives the impression that, with the exception of X11, the run-time environment on Ubuntu Touch is equal to the run-time environment on Ubuntu Desktop.
Obviously, that is not true. Native applications on Ubuntu Touch are sand-boxed. My customer can run a console app on Ubuntu Desktop just fine, but on Ubuntu Touch, she cannot not - I guess she could if she rooted or re-flashed her phone, but that is not practical.
I think Canonical should make it clear that native C/C++ applications on Ubuntu Touch will be sand-boxed. Then they should articulate, clearly on their web site, just how that works, at least the part that they know so far.
The reason I feel this is necessary is that there are a lot of developers who read the press releases and see the words open source native C/C++, more open than Android, etc...and they get the impression that it is basically Ubuntu Desktop for small form-factor, but that is not quite true.
Spelling-out, explicitly, Canonical's native C/C++ strategy would save such developers a lot of time and hacking trying to figure out what is feasible and what is not.
To be fair, I just received feedback from a competitor to Ubuntu Touch, giving me assurances that the competing OS will allow the user/owner of the phone to determine whether any software should have root access, etc - basically, like the desktop version of the OS. I will send them an email asking them if they could make public what they have assured me in private.
These are things that should be crystal clear to C/C++ software developers long in advance before committing to a platform. I can only imagine the time that would have been lost if I had misinterpreted what Canonical wrote above, only to find out that there is nothing practical that my customer can do to install my application as easily as they would on Ubuntu Desktop because of the sandbox that cannot be easily turned-off.
RareHare said:
I think Canonical should make it clear that native C/C++ applications on Ubuntu Touch will be sand-boxed. Then they should articulate, clearly on their web site, just how that works, at least the part that they know so far.
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Of course I can't speak for Canonical and I might be wrong, but I would really be surprised, if it was possibly to run applications as root on an off-the-shelf Ubuntu Touch device.
RareHare said:
To be fair, I just received feedback from a competitor to Ubuntu Touch, giving me assurances that the competing OS will allow the user/owner of the phone to determine whether any software should have root access, etc - basically, like the desktop version of the OS. I will send them an email asking them if they could make public what they have assured me in private.
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Interesting, but then it might be a difference between the "reference" implementation and what is being delivered on an out-of-the-shelf phone. I can't belive a device vendor to take the risk of allowing root access and still providing full warranty. Most likely the user will have to accept a "no warranty" waiver to get root access, if that feature is not completly disabled by the device vendor. The same kind of holds for UT, as sudo works on the development images as mentioned previously.
EDIT: Make sure the feedback you received does refer to an actual device that is/will be available for sale and not to a development platform. Marketing wording can be tricky about simple issues like that,
RareHare said:
These are things that should be crystal clear to C/C++ software developers long in advance before committing to a platform. I can only imagine the time that would have been lost if I had misinterpreted what Canonical wrote above, only to find out that there is nothing practical that my customer can do to install my application as easily as they would on Ubuntu Desktop because of the sandbox that cannot be easily turned-off.
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Agreed, but the same holds for any other platform.
f69m said:
Of course I can't speak for Canonical and I might be wrong, but I would really be surprised, if it was possibly to run applications as root on an off-the-shelf Ubuntu Touch device.
Interesting, but then it might be a difference between the "reference" implementation and what is being delivered on an out-of-the-shelf phone. I can't belive a device vendor to take the risk of allowing root access and still providing full warranty. Most likely the user will have to accept a "no warranty" waiver to get root access, if that feature is not completly disabled by the device vendor. The same kind of holds for UT, as sudo works on the development images as mentioned previously.
Agreed, but the same holds for any other platform.
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I was very careful in asking the UT-competitor what their policy would be with regard to the subject of this thread, and they assured me that, when they say open, they really do mean open, as in open-like-the-desktop. However, just now, I found clues on the Internet what they said might not be quite true. So I just sent a grab-me-by-the-ears-while-you-are-speaking email asking them to be clear.
However, they have committed to allowing the user to install my application. They know that my application will open a device driver, and they said that it should work fine, that they would allow the user to do it, and that they had already intended to create a feature where the user gets to decide, after a WARNING, though they are not yet certain what this feature will be called. Note that they are not doing this for me alone. They are doing it, in general. In other words, they are doing what I proposed earlier: give the user the choice of whether to "use metal chainsaw".
As far as voiding the warranty goes...honestly, I do not think that will be a problem. As you know, I can write software that will wipe my hard disk clean on Windows, right now, put it up on my web site, and anyone in the world can download that software, and the most that will happen before they install my application is that they will get a brief warning. So the model for allowing the user to do foolish things has been with us for a while, and companies are still very profitable with this model, and despite viruses (I developed anti-virus algorithm that some of you use, btw), most people are happy with the level-of-control they get with their desktop devices. When Windows Vista tried to remove some of it, even moderate users were very angry, as you know.
I think that, especially for cell-phone carriers in the USA (Verizon, AT&T, Sprint)...the reason is not so much to protect the consumer, but to make sure that the user is not able...for example...to remove the bloatware that they put on the phone. It is more about controlling the customer experience for profit than for protection or being liable for damages.
The UT-competitor has probably figured out that there is a market for a truly open mobile platform, one where the decision of what happens to the device reverts to the owner of the device. They are probably counting on all the pent-up demand of C/C++/etc. native software developers who have been trying to escape the Android/Java iOS/* Sandbox, and not only that, the developers who are able to create revolutionary innovations if they had more access to the Linux API. My guess is that, once one OEM takes this path, the others will not have any choice but to follow, because there will be a free-for-all (no pun intended) in the development market. It will be messy, perhaps, but there will no longer be any restrictions on getting the most out of the device.
It will definitely be more efficient to decouple development from deliverance.
Well, sounds good, just hope that they will find an OEM that shares their views. I think Desktop/Windows is not a relevant reference, as nobody will send their PC back to Microsoft, if it is not working. And if you want to use official MS support you are paying dearly. On the other hand support/warranty is a huge concern for phone and tablet vendors.
Again, not being able to run a process as root on a UT device is my personal opinion and I am not speaking for Canonical or their partners.
EDIT: Do the "bad" operations you mentioned work on Windows 8 phone? I suppose not.
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