Related
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
As far as I can tell, without any objective numbers comparing root performance, a lot of this rooting fad raves could just be subjective reported elation about being able to be different.
Granted, originally, the Gtab OS had some flaws. That's old news, get over it. How do the current roots compare with OTA version 3588? I'm somewhat shocked not one of the pack of geeks that have rooted their G tab hasn't backed up their raves with real numbers...
Granted, being rooted to the latest vegan might get access to the full Android market, and perhaps even future updates in Android... However, if I'm finding most of what I want at Amazon Android, is rooting worth the trouble until the roots and android versions stabilize? Show us the NUMBERS...!
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Also, do any of these roots do OTA auto updates or do root updates require a download & re-root? Just asking...
Jesus christ if you can't do a simple search for benchmark tests then I highly suggest getting the ipad2. I hear that the ipad 2 reads your mind so out don't have to do any search. We've only had a kazillion threads on this.
Edit
This is not to mention all the YouTube vids on this people have posted.
Edit again.
Actually, here are a few.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1047098&highlight=benchmark+2011
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12984546&postcount=9
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
Edit again.
I'm serious, I highly suggest the ipad 2 to everyone I talk to. Speaking as someone who repairs computers as a side job, I'm fully aware that most people want to be spoon fed everything, which is why the ipad 2 is the ideal device for most people. If people want to complain about nothing, let apple deal with them.
Thanks for the links.
However, as best as I can tell, they seem to verify that the OTA updated Gtablet is about the same speed as Vegan in the benchmarks when the CPU speeds are similar.
However, do the benchmarks used translate into much of relevance to speed of actually using the tablet to open programs, boot the tablet, download & open web pages. Stuff that people actually do with the tablet... Unless that's what the benchmarks are testing... But that info isn't provided in the links. Again -- weak...
The numbers and detail provided in these links deserve barely more than a C grade, if that... And what they provide seems to be at equal speeds, the current OTA updated gtab OS works fine... As long as you don't need the full Adroid market...
You Tube links? As best as I can tell, not one of them is an objective comparison with the OTA 3588 update gtab. They are just videos of vegan working... As far as real world numbers and comparisons -- Grade D-...
Where are the Grade A numbers? It's not that I don't believe the ROMs are not an improvement, it's just where are the numbers to support these raves?
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
You're not telling us what you want. You said you wanted numbers so I gave you a bunch. Then you say you don't want those numbers. So, I ask again. What do you want?
I'll be brutally honest on this one. Vegan isn't that fast. From all my tests, Calkulin+Clemsyn combo is by far the fastest custom rom+kernel for the gtab.
After trying out everything, I'm back to Calkulin+Clemsyn combo.
Would you like me to make a video of myself openning various programs and post it for you? What do you want?
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
You also have a misconception of what rooting is/does.
To become root in Linux/Android is to gain administrative privileges. In windows root would be called Administrator. Gaining root privileges gives you the ability to change system files and settings, NOTHING MORE. By itself it does nothing.
Now boys...
The fact is that if you need numbers, reports,testimonials or anything else to justify mucking around with the gtab thenyou probably should just get an iPad. Nothing to prove then -everyone "knows" its the best-no numbers needed! The gtab is for people that don't mind the hardware and software quirks as long as they have the freedom to mess around. Its not about the numbers -its about the experience.
[Q] Why should we ..?!
Droofus said:
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
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Click to collapse
Well, I am not sure anyone here is trying to sway you in one direction or the others.
Here is how things go in community forums like this one:
- People search for what they got in mind first.
- If they didn't find its either undoable or not that interesting for the community that no one bothered doing it.
- In both case those people are expected to either drop whatever they are wishing for or pursuit it on there own and then share their findings with the community.
In other words, why the heck am I supposed to go beyond whatever benchmarks readily available on the market to show YOU how good/bad are custom firmwares compared to stock ones when :
- custom firmwares are volatile and each couple of days there is a new rom or rom add on or a kernel released (am I supposed to maintain the stats for every single update released ? else how meaningful would be my outdated stats to you? when it represents a ROM that is no longer a candidate)
- the whole flash back and forth and in between roms is a 10~20 minutes process of YOUR time which would suffice to answer all your questions.
If you still need some usability tests (you can use your own stop watch to time through the videos) you might want to check here.
Best of luck,
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
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Click to collapse
I think this was the best answer.
The information you are demanding is indicating your ignorance. As was already stated rooting does nothing for performance. If you want numbers you can install each rom and test with each kernel setting whatever your heart desires. Its not likely anyone else even cares as most people only care about stability and a lack of lag
Droofus said:
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting itself does nothing other than giving you root - the speed of your device before and after rooting is identical.
Now, if you want to talk about the speeds with or without an overclocked kernel, or with a custom Froyo vs custom Ginger vs stock rom, as others have said there are plenty of posts out there.
Mine lasted on the stock rom for exactly one boot after opening the box - so I could copy on the bits to begin the rooting/custom rom flashing goodness.
cu_ninja said:
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
If I go to a notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards, the various card performances in various games are reviewed. The reviews are very professionally and objectively done with detail. Clicking on any specific card opens a detailed review of that card. This allows users to make decisions based upon what sorts of (graphic game) uses they might actually have.
It seems a similar but much smaller objective set of benchmarks could be performed on the various g tablet roots using a set of common uses in part noted above. It doesn't need to be as elaborate or detailed as the video card review site noted above. Just objectively testing a few simple end user tasks would seem to be adequate to get beyond the subjective raves that one commonly sees about this or that OS change...
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
So is this a religious thread, I see Jesus was mentioned.
Actually sometimes you modders act like it.
I'll get the other times later. Here is the startup time.
Droofus said:
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
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Well, while I can see your point, I also have to point out the other side of the argument. I am an engineer. Last year, we got a college graduate who, from the outlook, had all the numbers and credentials. He graduated with almost a perfect gpa. Sounds nice, right? He had all the numbers. The problem was as soon as he began working with us we figured out very quickly that we had a book smart-absolutely no common sense person with us. I swear, he pulled me aside one time and asked me why they were "watering the concrete slabs" in the lab. It got worse from there. I had to explain to him very basic engineering concepts and applications like stirrups, slippage, etc.
This guy actually went through college getting the grades and everything without actually understanding any of it. He graduated with a structural engineering degree without knowing the very simple practical processes of curing concrete or reinforcing footings.
The point is numbers can be deceiving if you ignore annecdotal (aka common sense) evidence. You need both objective numbers and common sense to work in reality. Sure, I've heard plenty of annecdotal nonsense like creationist BS, religious miracles, and homeopathic crap. I'll give you that. But you seem to be on the other extreme side, which is to ignore all personal evidence and place all your bets on pure numbers.
I'm telling you now. We got both the numbers and personal evidence. I'll try to get them for you.
Doofus
I like the list of missing benchmarks you listed. Why don't you measure them and report back?
Droofus said:
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All those numbers are identical before and after rooting your device since nothing changes before and after root, other than you now have root access.
That was easy.
1
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Theres some more random numbers
While watching everyone bash eachother here has its entertainment i have some advice.
Droofus
1 i would recomend not comming into a community forum and bashing people who put a lot of effort into making the product you own better. These people don't get paid for the hours of work they put in.
2 if you don't like how thing are done around here take the time to be a good example and do it better. You clearly have an idea in your head on how to make a professional stastical representation of the roms so do it.
3 what some people are trying to tell you is that it is not all about the numbers. Some people want gingerbread features. Right now all of the gingerbread roms suck for video performance due to driver issues so i don't use them. I like the gingerbread features but i watch videos a lot so i use a froyo rom. Others really care about performance so they give up some stability and overlock.
4 people around here get upset when the same question gets asked over and over again. If you have done some reasearch reference other articles to show that.
5 this is a dual core tablet, what are you doing that you care that much about preformance.
This thing is faster than my netbook.
6 dropping your title on us just makes you sound pretentious. There are a lot of very intellgent successful people here who are not impressed by doctors or your past experience. If you have useful skills to the community don't brag just use them and people will be grateful.
7 people were a little rude about it but they are right. I tell people that if they want something that is easy go buy an ipad or a xoom. If you want something for under 300 then buy a g tab and understand that with some effort it can be great.
Everyone
1 relax... starting flame wars with someone who doesn't know their way around isn't going to help anyone.
I forgot to mention that traditionally us geeks are known for our lack of formal documentation.
P.s. while many of us proudly wear the badge of geek calling us a pack of geeks is a little adversarial.
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
I might just take a break all this drama stuff is like high school and post my stuff else where or keep it until its ready
adslee said:
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
xboarder56 said:
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
Silentbtdeadly said:
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
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Click to collapse
nope i got a group all ready working with privatly on this
I don't know much about what's going on behind the (Devs) scene - things between Xboarder56 and CM team, between Xboarder56 and Revolution but based on the facts that I've seen, Xboarder56 did a wonderful job. All the noob tools, Roms - especially his supports. He updates his Rom immediately after someone found a bug, heck, he was so fast at supporting and updating that I am - as an end user, seems to be tired to trying to keep up with his releases.
Based on what I've read in the forum, Revolution is an a**hole - period! And if I were a Mod he would be forever banned due to the fact of kept asking ETA alone - not to mention the bad intention to provoked Xboarder56.
There is a mutual benefits between Dev and end users. If you are a good Dev with a lot of followers, you will become popular and that will helps with your career (i.e Steve Kondik and Samsung). Devs built Rom not just for fun, they also built up their porfolio/resume if they wanted a good job in hi-tech field and a good reputation when putting their app on the Market.
On a personal point of view, I don't care if there is only one Dev in the Amaze forum because without many of them I still be able to get ICS when it's due from Tmobile. Flashing custom Rom is more like a hobby to many of us here and if I don't have their support I still be fine with my phone - using Stock
Another thing needs to be point out and one may not agreed with me but a Stock Rom is always better than any custom Rom. I means looks at Motorola's announcement just a few days ago when they are looking for testers for their soon to be update software, they are looking for one thousand tester and when a Mfg. released their final product, they usually testing it for months before.
As with us? Every time when we flashed a new Rom we tend to check on some basic function as wifi, tethering, bluetooth, gps and stuff like that and we were testing it for a few minutes - until it crashed or bootloop a day later. We rarely have a chance a test the Rom while doing multi-task with hundreds of apps on different environtments, i.g using GPS while listening to Music on a trip and taking/receiving phone calls while another party on hold at the other end and at the same time googling for a nearby restaurant, ect ... How many of us doing such intensive test on our beloved new Rom for a long period of time? I'm doubtful.
To top it off. More Devs? Great! I appreciates their effort and I am thankful. I will consider a donation if I think the Dev is devoting to his work and fully support his followers and deserved his rewards. If there is none? I either continuing using my phone with Stock and after a few months, Ebaying it or throw it on my local Craigslist and buy another phone - happily ever after! If there is a single Dev out there thinking that us users would have no where to go to without their work. They are wrong!
Mutual beneficial is the name of this game. Without users and testers - Dev is nothing but a desperate wannabe tech-guy looking for a job without a good looking porfolio/resume. No chance to practice and/or testing your product. Without Devs, users would have no fun and his phone purchasing cycle will be shorter hence carriers and Mfg. can sell more phones! That's about it!
Enough ranting and my appologies for those who hates long post.
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Thanks! It's difficult to find balance between the forum and my personal life but I do what I can. Also keep in mind that I moderate more forums here on XDA at the same time as do a lot of forum moderators. So if you don't see them in other forums frequently then use the report post feature and report the thread. Your FSM will be alerted to investigate the reported issue.
sunlaw2 said:
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
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Umm....shouldn't the ref call the foul on the guy who actually committed the foul in the first place? Just sayin.
Silentbtdeadly said:
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
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I totally see where you are coming from. In reality their are people who will intentionally get under you skin any way they can. Even as an adult it still happens. But if theirs anything that I learned in flight school its that you can run into the wind you have to turn into and face it. The thing you push against lifts you up. Team work is crucial in any thing you do really. That's what being a community is about, working together not being divided. I have seen the things revolution has done and in reality he is one of the ones who won't go far. I mean all of this out of respect, but with a device so scares but great that is a reason we should help on another. If HTC won't help then it looks like its up to us. We need to work together and stop being a pain in the ass toward one another. Like I said I'm not blaming anyone its all out of respect.
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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500thanks out of 1500total posts meaning 67% of the time he talks bullsh$t
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using xda premium
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Click to collapse
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
Silentbtdeadly said:
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
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Thread closed per OP request.
Hello, I'm posting this tread because I have searched every inch of the market/internet for a good First person-Role playing game in real time. I know about "Deadly dungeons", don't get me wrong it's a great game but its not in real time and not free roaming.
So, see that it might take awhile for someone to make said game, I've decided to make one myself. Only one problem. I don't know any code, and I suck at graphics. I'll be doing plots, quest, main quest, and music. So I'm looking for a team who would like to help me put this together. It will be a paid for app will a free trial so in the end, if it is any good there will be money. No guarantees thought. But seeing as it will be the first of it's kind, there is a good chance.
Imagine a game like "The Elder Scrolls" or like the iOS game "Necromancer's Rising". That is what I'm looking for. So if your interested in seeing this come to life, PM me and I'll give you my email ASAP.
Please, I know many people are waiting for such a game, and there is money in it IF it is completed and turns out well, but that all depends on how hard your willing to work. Think of how many "These guys just made my day for making this game" there will be. I personally am a HUGE Elder Scrolls fan, I mean I got every game. From Arena to Skyrim. That is what starting my love for, as I call them FPRTRPG games.
Hope to be hearing from you guys!
-Andrew
P.S If you are not interested, or not a developer or what now, please spreed the word, if you know someone who might want to help, tell them about this.
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
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Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
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Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
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Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
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Click to collapse
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
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Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
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You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
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+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
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Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
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Click to collapse
Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
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What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
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First, I'd like to thank you for reading this post. I will try to shove all of my thoughts into as little space as possible. My name is Chasity and I am the girl behind Beyoutiful Designs( Android and digital customization). As of right now, Beyoutiful Designs has only Go SMS Pro themes on Google Play and distributes free wallpapers, Facebook and G+ covers, Twitter Headers, and things of that nature on a blog, Facebook page, G+ business page, Twitter, and Instagram. I began Beyoutiful Designs from a passion and with a dream. A young mother of five taking a leap of faith in making a career for her family out of a love for design. I am completely self educated and continue to seek more, learn more, and know more. I am far from where my dream lies.
Throughout this journey, so far, I have ran into a few difficulties. I struggle to find resources, make connections with others who share my passion, gain followers/likes or visitors to my site, as well as receiving downloads and ratings or reviews on Google Play.
As for my struggle to find resources, I am unsure of what I am found wrong in my search efforts. I should have a massive amount more than I do after all of the countless hours I have spent researching.
Although I am far from my best ability, I do know that my work is of good quality. I always put my all in my work and I place heart in every detail. And I genuinely care. The few ratings and responses I have gotten have been high. 4.75 being my lowest. I have reached out to the few I could find in my niche with little connection made. I've spent a great deal of time. I keep falling short.
This is another outreach attempt. I'm posting here today because I am seeking resources to further educate myself and better my work. ANY material is appreciated tremendously. I am not restricted to any one area of design. I came interested in information such as:
Design materials and elements
Selling wallpapers on Google Play or a blog
Go SMS themes
Go contact themes
Social media
UCCW Widgets
Free WordPress design
Custom fonts
Tips on making profiles/blogs pretty
Fb covers and design
Finding & building connections with other designers
G+ covers and design
Google Play discover ability
AGAIN, THANK YOU! HAVE A BEYOUTIFUL DAY!
Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Might be helpful?
http://www.xda-developers.com/andro...gn=Feed:+xda-developers/ShsH+(xda-developers)
Learn Some Coding Basics and Become a Famous Developer!
POSTED DECEMBER 28, 2013 AT 4:30 PM BY EAGLEEYETOMDIFFICULTY:1
Learn Some Coding Basics and Become a Famous Developer!
Many of us would love to become famous programmers like XDA’s Senior Recognized Developers. But coding isn’t easy, and you need to know the basics and have a working knowledge of whatever language you choose before even getting started. And of course, writing a simple “Hello world!” app is not enough, as you will have to look deeper to create more complicated functions.
If you are looking a good place to begin, you should take a look at the guide written by XDA Senior Member Dark Wraith, who gathered some useful information together and wrote a handy guide with commands for many popular languages like C, C++, Java, Python, and BASH.
With the instructions provided in the thread and added acquired knowledge, you will be able to understand the structure of each language better and hopefully create your first application or modify your favorite ROM. With this guide, you will be also able to edit the overclocking settings and governors of kernels, which is a good practice for the C language.
Dreams sometimes come true, so if you want to start your developer career, make your way to the guide thread and hone your coding skills. We all want to wish you good luck!
_________
Thank you very much for taking the time to help.
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