Hello All,
This past summer, I formed a focus group consisting of university students from various technology disciplines. Together, we conducted an analysis on what businesses and individuals need in order to get started with NFC. Our findings developed our first hypothesis. The team then put its findings into motion by creating a business model canvas, cloud based product and conducting many interviews with potential users.
The technology start-up community here in Helsinki has a keen bias toward learning and adopting “The Lean Start-up” methodology for building successful products. Indeed, I find myself supporting many of the principles and ideas that Eric Ries proposes. Currently, my project is in stealth mode. Nonetheless, I have been actively building product concepts and things are gaining momentum.
If it's anything to gauge things by, just last night me and my buddies were counting how many NFC cards we already have in our wallets. NFC is really moving rapidly here in Finland. In my case, I had 3. One was for the "K" chain of stores, a monthly bus card and the last one was for the gym.
Right now, I'm looking for a person that knows how to code Android. I need a small app built and it probably can be done in about 8 hours or so, depending upon the persons level of expertise. Here's what the app needs to be able to do.
Nutshell version:
1. When the app is launched it automatically logs into the users account and knows who you are.
2. When the users touches a NFC tag the UID is read and sent to the backend via https.
3. Our backend server takes the UID and provisions it accordingly.
4. Once provisioned, confirmation is sent to the app which instructs the user to touch the tag again in order to write it.
Right now we are just concerned with building the minimal viable product as regards this app.
The next step will be to tie everything we already have together with the app and beta testing it through pilot projects we have lined up.
The purpose of this thread is to find out from others where I can find someone skilled enough to help me with building this app. I thought I could do it myself using tools like "appinventor" from MIT but that didn't work for me.
Anyway, if you are interested in learning more please drop me a note.
Thank you for your interest,
Suomalainen
I'm not saying it is overly complicated but, it will take more than 8 hours to get this thing to a working product. Not only is there the task of setting up the back-end of the app but also the layout of it. You then have to consider how it will talk to the server as any thing other than a basic webview, which completely defeats the point and purpose of a stand-alone app, requires use of web services which will require the setup and integration of said service.
Point is, it's much more complicated and involved than you seem to understand. Good luck with your project but you might take some time researching what it is you're wanting so as to better comprehend the time and effort involved.
Actually it's not that bad as you think. The web service is up and running. Now I need an app to get the UID from the tag and send it over to the web service so it can be provisioned. Once that's done on the back end the back end then sends a confirmation to the app to write the tag.
Does this help you?
Suomalainen said:
Actually it's not that bad as you think. The web service is up and running. Now I need an app to get the UID from the tag and send it over to the web service so it can be provisioned. Once that's done on the back end the back end then sends a confirmation to the app to write the tag.
Does this help you?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, if you've gone that far the only other question I have is, why not finish it out? If all you wish to do is read an NFC tag and pull then send its UID to the web service, you should be able to do so at this point. The android tutorials cover basic NFC use which is what you are trying to accomplish.
There may be some confusion?
I thought in the opening intro I wrote that I explained trying to build it with MIT appinventor?
You wrote "I thought I could do it myself using tools like "appinventor" from MIT but that didn't work for me.". So it sounds like you hadn't made much progress and/or thought about not using appinventor. Are you still trying to do this using appinventor or do you want to build a native Android application?
I would like to have a Native Android App. I'm not a coder but wanted to take on the challenge using the Appinventor tool but found it would not work for me. Now, I'm just looking for a person that knows they can code the app and can get it to do what we need it to do.
Are you looking to pay a developer for this work? if so, I could probably take a look.
@ wseemann, Thanks for the offer! Right now the team that I have put together has been formed by folks interested in NFC. Each person contributes to the team a unique piece of his/her expertise toward our end goals and vision... The obvious hope being to get this "startup" off the ground...
Suomalainen said:
@ wseemann, Thanks for the offer! Right now the team that I have put together has been formed by folks interested in NFC. Each person contributes to the team a unique piece of his/her expertise toward our end goals and vision... The obvious hope being to get this "startup" off the ground...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, good luck.
Thanks! Please also feel free to pass along the word to your friends and others you feel may be interested. Feel free to message me as well.
Thanks again!
Related
Hello! to anyone who might read this
First off, let me tell you a tiny bit about myself (Bare with me here).
My name is Christian, I'm 19 and I'm an intern at an IT-section. I've been working here for a year already - Each year interns are to write two individual papers about different subjects. My last paper was a virtual Windows Server 2003 Server Park Environment for another company. This year my first paper is on Android.
My place of work supports other workplaces, such as schools, the hospital, social workers, basically everything. With next-gen phones and new OS' out - Naturally, we're upgrading. The question is what OS to go with. That's why I was asked to create a paper on Android, showing how a work-phone could be. Not all of the details have been planned out yet, but it goes something like this:
- Create a ROM with the necessary applications
- Strip the ROM of anything ..unnecessary (Could be anything, Gapps even).
- Choose/Develope a Launcher that can work pretty much out-of-the-box without having to customize too much.
That's pretty much all the information I've been given for now. I've been given a HTC Desire to 'play around with'. I've been told we're going to have a meeting about it soon. The reason I'm creating this thread is to give myself sort of a roadmap, I guess. And I'd love your opinions on how I can best do this, what I should base my ROM on and anything else you might think I need to know.
Peace.
It's a great idea for a workplace to go with android for employees given the ability to create more secure levels of access since it's based on linux. Also the ability to tailor the OS and UI to suite the needs of the business are something that's desired more and more these days. The downfalls you'll have to overcome are battery power (stripped down OS could nix that) and the fact that most companies will lean more towards Blackberry for two main reasons.
First is security, lets face it, Google is the internet for the most part and a lot of people fear the unknown such as where does their data go and what's done with it. Is it erased (securely)? Is it shared and what about data leaks?
Also, even though I love Android, for a business setting Blackberry has everything right. Android lacks in the 'push' area by a longshot and (from what I've seen) Blackberry supports more email protocals. Let's not forget when you're emailing all day or writing a paper a physical keyboard is more desired, a lot of Android phones lack that.
If the correct phones were chosen and (with a custom ROM and apps) the right measures were taken to address the push issue, plus maybe some sort of native encryption to ease security concerns - I think you could make a very valid argument to use Android phones for their employees. Android beats the othe OS types by a longshot, you just have to address those small but major issues.
Using Android as platform for devices inside an organization makes a lot of sense.
I disagree with KCRic about the superiority of BlackBerry on push and mail systems compatibility. Remember that BB requires you to use a secondary server to "translate" your Exchange, Notes, GroupWise or whatever you have to the devices.
Agree 100% in terms of the keyboard issue.
Something Android has on its side is that Google is the internet. Android was designed from the bottom up to be a "connected" platform. This means mobile devices with ample access to databases and hosted applications. If a business is still wondering if the data on the cloud is the solution, they may not be here on the next decade.
Believe me, you don't find many devices with VPN support, something that is already supported on most Android ROMs. Secure connections and a secure local storage can be easily achieved, the tools are already there.
Think also not only on phones but many other devices (tablets, kiosks, etc) that can benefit from this idea.
I think the major obstacle will be to convince the service provider to let your organization put customized ROMs on the devices. They will panic. Maybe if your agreement says that you provide the support. I already have to go through some of this (on a different initiative) and it is not easy.
KCRic was right about blackberry .... was. The Droid Pro puts that puppy to bed for good, I think. To the OP, your company needs to take back that desire and get ahold of a Droid pro for you. That'll be the (as of right now) best device for workplace use and give you the best launch-off point.
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input!
My company will most likely be standardizing on the Desire Z as the 'top notch' phone - And some sort of first level entry phone for employees that don't need aweesomesauce features. I've begun dissecting my own ROM using dsiXDA's kitchen. If my company is going to settle on Android as a platform I will have to build the ROM from source, though. Seeing as when I'm finished with my internship someone else will have to continue development on the ROM.
Right now I'm going to dissect a couple of ROMS. My place of work wants to see which of the two fits best for us: AOSP or Sense. I'm an AOSP man myself but Sense is easier to use for 'newbies' and it's also easier to configure too look-and-work-just-like-this, if that makes sense. THANKFULLY dxiXDA's kitchen exists so the workload isn't .. ****ty just yet.
Again, thank you for your input!
zHk3R said:
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input!
My company will most likely be standardizing on the Desire Z as the 'top notch' phone - And some sort of first level entry phone for employees that don't need aweesomesauce features. I've begun dissecting my own ROM using dsiXDA's kitchen. If my company is going to settle on Android as a platform I will have to build the ROM from source, though. Seeing as when I'm finished with my internship someone else will have to continue development on the ROM.
Right now I'm going to dissect a couple of ROMS. My place of work wants to see which of the two fits best for us: AOSP or Sense. I'm an AOSP man myself but Sense is easier to use for 'newbies' and it's also easier to configure too look-and-work-just-like-this, if that makes sense. THANKFULLY dxiXDA's kitchen exists so the workload isn't .. ****ty just yet.
Again, thank you for your input!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you don't want the employees messing around with their phones, I'd definately exclude the Market app (Vending.apk) and include the apps of which you believe they are necessary. There's just to much crap in the market and even if it isn't meant to damage your phone, it still can do some damage if you put too much apps with the same functions on it. Experience? Yes, with my X10. The thing was damn slow until I removed a whole bunch of apps.
Hello has anyone used the money toolkit app to access your account?. On my iphone I have an official natwest app, which am sure is safe however a bit worried about this one cause it clearly states not affiliated with any bank.
Hi marvi0
I am Dan - founder of Money Toolkit, so obviously my opinion is not impartial
You are absolutely right to question apps like ours, and I wish more people were more diligent in this resect.
The biggest barrier to using any third party financial app is trust. For a small start up like ours, theres a bit of a catch 22 thing. The best way for people to trust our app is to see others using it, which means having enough early trail blazers use it.
I hope you do read some of the pages on our site regarding security - we have gone to very great lengths to keep you in charge of your credentials.
But this is still only our word. Probably the best thing to help increase your confidence is to look on our get satisfaction pages - (we cant delete messages, so it is an open conversation). Also check the comments on the Android market, again we can't even respond as the developer (which can be frustrating).
I hope others do respond on here, though we only have 500+ active users, so I would be a bit surprised.
There will always be some nervousness committing to our app, ultimately you have to go with your instincts - most people who see our app don't go on to enter their details, which is a shame in my opinion (obviously), because those who do find our app really useful.
Any questions, just ask.
Cheers.
Dan.
I have installed it and it looks pretty good
I have my fingers crossed regarding the security
Thanks for your reply so does this app actually allow me to view my natwest account information?
marvi0 said:
Thanks for your reply so does this app actually allow me to view my natwest account information?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it does yeah
you get an overview and then when you click on the account it drills down into the transactions
you cant see direct debits etc
also i wish you could change the theme, the wooden effect is a bit yukky, lol
but it does the job fine
also you have to manually log out or the app will run in the background, and if someone picks up your phone they can see the bank funds etc
winwiz - thanks for that.
You are not alone a few people don't like the wooden theme, so we are thinking of changing that.
The idea was that it continues the web site theme of being a work bench - continuing to follow the tool kit idea! We also didn't want to look like another boring bank, but probably it doesn't work that well on the phones.
Regarding logging out - we keep you logged in on purpose, (it will time out after 5 minutes) it is really annoying when you accidentally go back too far or want to swap to another app and have to log back in. Perhaps we should make that another setting?
some people even choose to keep their password remembered, and rely on the phones own security.
Remember this is a READ ONLY app, there is absolutely no way anyone could transfer funds, or make any changes to your bank.
We've got some nice things planned, like categorising your sending and graphs etc.
So any feedback or ideas really welcome - especially on the get satisfaction pages
Cheers.
MTK-Dan said:
winwiz - thanks for that.
You are not alone a few people don't like the wooden theme, so we are thinking of changing that.
The idea was that it continues the web site theme of being a work bench - continuing to follow the tool kit idea! We also didn't want to look like another boring bank, but probably it doesn't work that well on the phones.
Regarding logging out - we keep you logged in on purpose, (it will time out after 5 minutes) it is really annoying when you accidentally go back too far or want to swap to another app and have to log back in. Perhaps we should make that another setting?
some people even choose to keep their password remembered, and rely on the phones own security.
Remember this is a READ ONLY app, there is absolutely no way anyone could transfer funds, or make any changes to your bank.
We've got some nice things planned, like categorising your sending and graphs etc.
So any feedback or ideas really welcome - especially on the get satisfaction pages
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the great feedback. I'd like the option to customise the background, or if this is not possible, a solid black background. The timeout option should be configurable so the user can set the timeout period!
I look forward to the updates
MTK-Dan said:
I am Dan - founder of Money Toolkit, so obviously my opinion is not impartial
...
Any questions, just ask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Dan,
Was just deliberating about using Money Toolkit and I had a couple questions. I've no knowledge in this area so please bare with me.
On the blog post here: hxxp://moneytoolkit.com/2010/09/secure-mobile-banking/
You said that:
"Yodlee then sells your bank data to the web site that you signed up".
Which I agree doesn't sound ideal - but they have to make money to be a sustainable business. How does money toolkit intend to make money? Which part of users financial details will be utilised to do this?
Secondly - regarding the security - the same blog post says:
"Not only would someone have to get access to your phone they would have to go to the same lengths as they would if they wanted to ‘hack’ into a bank, but they would have to do it three times!"
I presume that each location storing data can't login to the bank account in part. Instead a single server instance would have to login - requiring all 3 parts of the information to do so as banks usually randomise the questions asked. That presumption may be wrong however - but if it's correct does that mean a hacker could just hack that single server instance and intercept the traffic being sent to the bank?
You said that:
"Yodlee then sells your bank data to the web site that you signed up".
"but they have to make money to be a sustainable business. How does money toolkit intend to make money? Which part of users financial details will be utilised to do this?""
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We point out the normal relationship with Yodlee because Yodlee is an independant third party, they are the entity that you end up having the biggest contractual relationship with, in fact you sign over power of attourney to them when you use a web site that uses their aggregation (read the small print).
Regarding Money Toolkit making money, so far we don't! Of course, as you point out, we need to, so we have two options - we will ask for 50p per month (for example), or we will offer good deals with companies we trust (generally not main stream banking companies), where we will make a commission, if we do that we will make the commission obvious and share it with the person taking the offer.
"Secondly - regarding the security...
...does that mean a hacker could just hack that single server instance and intercept the traffic being sent to the bank?"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well your main assumptions is correct, but the reasoning not quite right. Firstly it is not just because of the random nature of the security questions that the three way split is valuable, but literally each part is utterly useless without the other parts, they are three parts of an encrypted file, which MUST come together before it is possible to decrypt.
The decrypted file (now only in volatile memory) then returns values to your phone and it is your phone which sends (over SSL) the right request to the bank, so they would have to breach our own SSL traffic (and custom encryption). Our IP's and the bank's are hard coded so a traditional man in the midle attack is ruled out. They would in effect, have to dupe you into downloading a dodgy Money Toolkit apk for this to be possible.
As you may know, the huge majority of security problems come from static data being discoverable (cd's and memory sticks left on trains for example). In our case the three seperate locations, including your phone make this kind of static data recovery, all but impossible.
However... you are right tht if someone managed to compromise the individual server that, at that moment (we have many), did that specific decryption: then if they were very smart, they might have the ability to detect your secure bank details. Though it would be almost imposible for that to happen and us not know about it. To alter our code and not have our systems detect the intrusion would be phenomenal.
MTK-Dan said:
so we have two options - we will ask for 50p per month (for example), or we will offer good deals with companies we trust (generally not main stream banking companies), where we will make a commission, if we do that we will make the commission obvious and share it with the person taking the offer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great, both options sound reasonable
MTK-Dan said:
they are three parts of an encrypted file, which MUST come together before it is possible to decrypt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neat, didn't realise.
MTK-Dan said:
The decrypted file (now only in volatile memory) then returns values to your phone and it is your phone which sends (over SSL) the right request to the bank, so they would have to breach our own SSL traffic (and custom encryption).
They would in effect, have to dupe you into downloading a dodgy Money Toolkit apk for this to be possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That at least does sound secure (without understanding it more) I suppose there may also be security issues beyond a dodgy .apk file if the Android device has been rooted - because I think that allows apps to work outside of their sandbox. Again, I don't know enough about that.
Thanks for the detailed answers, it gives me more confidence in the service.
aph5 said:
Great, both options sound reasonable
Neat, didn't realise.
That at least does sound secure (without understanding it more) I suppose there may also be security issues beyond a dodgy .apk file if the Android device has been rooted - because I think that allows apps to work outside of their sandbox. Again, I don't know enough about that.
Thanks for the detailed answers, it gives me more confidence in the service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible to transfer money to whomever you want with this app?
Hi.
I am looking at getting a couple of Flyers for my small business, but I need something quite specific, so I am guessing I would need an app developed for me.
What I am looking for, is an app that I can use as a job sheet when on site.
It would need to have a template for the job sheet, with areas that I can enter text using the on screen keyboard.
It would also need to have tick boxes for several areas of the service work that has been completed.
Another thing that would be required, is the ability to automatically save to a specific folder on the SD card, using the job reference as a file name.
The final thing, and probably the hardest to implement, is an area for the customer to sign upon completion of the work.
Is this possible, and would anyone be interested in helping out with this?
I think that if the template could be inseted into the app using either an image file, pdf, or some other file type, the app could be valuable to many people considering using a device like the Flyer for work.
If somebody could get an app developed in this way, we would be able to pay something towards it.
Thanks.
Steve.
stabloid said:
Hi.
I am looking at getting a couple of Flyers for my small business, but I need something quite specific, so I am guessing I would need an app developed for me.
-snipped-
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can I ask a few questions...
1. Why an app specifically for the Flyer? Would a web/cloud app do?
Given that you could save to a cloud database rather than an SD card, this would have certain advantages. If this doesn't work for you, I'd be interested to know why not.
Though question 2 might do it.
2.a I get why you may want a customer to sign a screen with a pen as per the Flyer platform. Could they use Evernote to do the signature?
2.b If Evernote would suffice for the signature, why not just use an Evernote form. for the whole app. (Google 'Evernote Form' for details)
3. Personally, I advise avoiding "signing" tablet devices (like delivery pads). The potential identity theft and data protection risks from recording and storing handwriting make me shudder.
A better form of authorisation (imo) would be to complete the form, email a PDF to your client, and have the client reply back to authorize. This is better because the client's email server and your email server will both have a legally enforceable record of the transaction.
I'm interested in your view of this.
Hope that helps
I will have a look at the suggestions you made.
The reason we're looking for this app, is to replace our job sheet books, which we take on site with us.
Being able to use the flyer instead, will save us a lot of money over a 2 year period, and would be more convenient than a paper book, which becomes dog-eared, and I am able to print off multiple copies if required, or email it direct to the customer.
We tend to deal with commercial establishments, such as care home groups, so we could streamline the whole process.
With regards to the whole identity theft thing, we don't take any details from people other than name & signature, and we never have any access to home addresses, credit cards, or bank details. Like I say, we bill head office, and they send a cheque, or use direct bank transfer.
I will try and post up a copy of one of our sheets, so you can see the layout we currently use.
Are you able to help develop an app, or are you just trying to help me find a different way to acheive my goals?
Cheers.
Steve.
There is a possibility that I could develop such an app. I would like to see a copy of the work sheet you currently use. I cannot commit myself to it right now though. If no one else picks it up in a few days, I'll try to carve out some time for it.
Thanks.
No major rush.
We don't have the Flyers yet.
I think I would prefer an app, as it is less messing around.
Cheers.
Steve.
stabloid said:
-snip-
Are you able to help develop an app, or are you just trying to help me find a different way to acheive my goals?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My interest is in web-based mobile apps rather than os-based mobile apps. The difference being that web-based is browser only, whereas os-based runs on your device. What you've asked for here is, ostensibly, an os-based app - what I think you want is a business solution.
Right now, there is a lot of pressure, from the marketing side of the software industry, to build os-based mobile apps. Personally, I challenge the long-term commercial viability of this - because it will not fulfill customers (i.e. your) goals.
My concern is with the total cost of ownership. The bug fixes, version upgrades, and general long term viability are a 10:1 factor in favour of web-based rather than os-based. In this I'm referring only to custom/bespoke business applications not mass market targets.
(However, in your case, as you want to take your job books on-site, you may have to work without an internet connection and this means you have to go os-based.)
Forgive me if this all seems a bit esoteric.
Short answer, if you want a web-based mobile app, yes I can help. PM for details.
But... I suspect the costs to build/host could come as a bit of a shock. Your posts imply that you'd have a handful of users. To get major cost benefits you'd have to have 100's of users - and I think this would apply wherever (web or os) the app was targeted.
From what you've said, and guessing at your budget, getting someone to simply put your form into Evernote would be your likely best course of action. Sorry, I can't help with this.
(Evernote is the free Notes app that comes pre-installed with the Flyer. I've no affiliation, though I am a user.)
Trust that is all of some use.
Regards
You make some good points mate, and I can see the benefits of all solutions.
However, as you say, with taking the Flyer on site, we do end up in "dead-spots", and this would just cause huge problems.
I was considering getting the wifi version for us, and using tethering from our phones for data when required.
If it can all be done in Evernote, then that may be an option.
The reason I would like sd card usage, is so that I can review job sheets at any time.
I would like to run a full system for job sheets, invoicing, etc. but that would just be too costly.
I think VNC to connect to the office PC would be best option for invoicing.
There are currently only 2 engineers, and we would just like a nice clean simple solution to the job sheet problem, and the Flyer seems like it could be perfect.
It would replace diaries, job books, notepads (pen & paper), sat-nav, and looks nice and professional when you are on site.
Cheers.
Steve.
I need to find a very good DEV who is available to work on a fairly large project.
I am a disabled yet still serving soldier, who has a need for a specific app. This app will help millions of people and I DO plan to market it to both VETS and
NON Vet disabled persons (as well as anyone else who wants it!) Vets will of course have either a free or reduced price option.
You will be required to know every aspect of a project DEV to include the GUI, images, background, visual aid, the Database, it has to "share" and export to several mediums including googleCal and Excel graphs. It may be built with a module style or have a lot of options that can be turned on or off. Some will be protected so it can't be turned off unless a password is entered depending upon the level of disability and functions needed per person.
I will expect a non-disclosure agreement. I have done the paperwork to protect my idea.
I will expect timely completion of phases as well as bug fixes. All of which I am very realistic about. We just need to be in daily or even hourly communication if needed.
This is a long term project that can lead to a permanent type of side job for all the ongoing updates/changes.
I need to get this moving while I am still able to keep track of what I actually need it to do. Your development skills will be instrumental in getting this up and running. You will have full liberty to do the app as you see fit as long as it meets the needs and has the ability to do each task I need. I really don't care how it is done as long as the outcome is correct. I have certain tasks that must be included, you are more than welcome to add your ideas as well.
Payment is of course Negotiable as either upfront or a portion of future income from sales, or possibly both. This will be agreed upon in writing for everyones safety, but this will really be more of a friendly work together type of environment.
Please msg me or reply here for more details.
(Mods, if this is is the wrong category, I apologize. Just move me and I will learn my lesson!)
Must have placed this in the wrong area! I can't seem find a good developer in the entire world that wants to take on a very lucrative (possibly like all good ideas are) project??
Wow Ok anyone know where I should look or post my "Programmer wanted" ad?
You would probably be better posting it in the developer forums rather than Q & A.
Good luck with your project!
All the best,
Ash
In the past, CM has allowed users to opt out of sending their data. It's recently decided to remove the "optout feature" (c'mon, is that really a "feature"), forcing users to eat it.
http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/0...pting-out-of-cm-stats-cyanogen-says-to-chill/
"Cyanogenmod Will No Longer Allow Opting Out of CM Stats-- Cyanogen Says to Chill"
in response, i kindly made this argument:
"A fundamental issue still exists. If the data is collected via a unique identifier, and it has a timestamp, then it isn't as anonymized as people think. Anyone with a basic understanding of data security knows that. I think the uproar has to do with the reputation of the team as the protectors and defenders of our platform...you give us choice. But when we see behavior that doesn't add up, were naturally going to believe you've used that position in the community to do evil. We understand you want the the data.
What doesn't make sense, and the natural road for us all to go down:
1) is this being used to monetize CM?
2) installation data: to include location, language, device, build version, and carrier, are all things that can be identified using a single, static event report. Why should we be comfortable with an always-collecting, transmitting-in-the-background service? What's the use-case for this? You've said yourself that Google Play apps themselves often collect this data..why is that method insufficient for CM? And why should we have to expect the same from you guys as we do from everyone else. Surely there's a way to collect the necessary data you need with a scalpel, negating the need for a device drag-net like this.
In all seriousness, i trust CM to do the right thing...i just can't tell right now if they've done the lazy thing, and created a service which is omnipresent, omnipotent, running in the background and silently spying on me, just so CM can tell which language my device is running, my general location, my build information, etc.
That's fine, it's simple data, and it's fairly straight forward.
The question is, if you needed that data (which CM says it does), then why are you collecting a much, much more complicated data set, and why won't a simple installation report do? Why won't running for a short period of time...say, 5-7 days do?
Why did they take the Carrier IQ route?
Maybe they want it just so they can have it. As Koushik stated on the google plus post (where he does a great job at assuaging some fears, and creating others):
"---Did you know over half of our users are in China? They just passed the US in terms of CM installation base.
Call it ego surfing, but the data is incredibly useful."
So they're collecting all this data, without a need? It's obvious why it's extremely useful to understand, say....which language most of your users use, etc. But you don't need a 24/7 service to find out what language people use your device in.
Anyways, here's the Google + Post:
https://plus.google.com/103583939320326217147/posts/GwnzKJijBKj
Here, he has, however, provided a screenshot of your data in action, assuaging the fears of most (we never truly get to see what our data looks like after its sent through the mizteereeus pipez of the interwebz, magically transformed, and then spit back out to an analyst), and he even tells you a bit about what data it collects. What he doesn't say, is why on earth submitting the data once, after installation, in a single report wont do, or why a build report once a week, or however often, wont do.
That's the end of my tinfoil hat tirade. Like i said, i love CM, i trust them, but i'm disappointed. The reasons i listed above are arguments made to explain why people are raising hell because of this. I don't believe they'll do anything nefarious, and personally, they can ego=surf with my data all they want. It IS pretty cool. Maybe the move was a tad bit short-sighted though, because they may have gotten a bit out of touch with their users, and their users opinion of them-- and that's what my posts were supposed to do...they were supposed to bring the way I (and other's) think about them more in line with reality.
Edit: It's important to note that, as explained to us by CM, CM Statistics calls home upon reboot. Whether it runs all the time, or just for a nanosecond upon reboot, or 24/7 is important as well, but I'm unable to verify any of this, because my github skills are w34ks4uce. If we had a independent dev who could take a look at CM Stats and then explain exactly (key word) what it was collecting, that'd be über helpful....but it wouldn't mean anything in the long run. Because I was viewing the macroscopic effects of the decision. A comprehensive announcement and explanation wold probably have been prescient, because the information contained in the Google+ post is just as key as the announcement itself-- the stigma of collecting data is far to strong to just say one day-- "sneaky, sneaky--no more opting out".
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
If this thread turns into a flame fest it will be locked
As for data collection...you are using Android right?
Also check the permissions to all those third party apps.
Thanks in advance for keeping this thread civil or ignoring it.
Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
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khaytsus said:
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Whoooooooo caaaares delete thread
RoOt-[]D [] []V[] []D-BeEr
Solution to all this: OpenPDroid
briand.mooreg said:
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is a brilliant idea, regardless of the status of CM Stats. A paid version with a extra feature set would be awesome.
As far as the argument for data like language, region, build, etc. I think we can say conclusively that this could be handled by a installation report, that runs once after installation or upgrade.
The type of data they need doesn't neccesitate a background service, which is why its naturally suspicious.
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btswein said:
This.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I though is was enabled by default. Is this something the devs choose? Upon installation, i see a "cm statistics is running" banner in notification. Even so, what's changing, is their removing opt out all together.
Sent from my Transformer using XDA Premium HD app
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
well there you have it:
Commit MessagePermalink
Restore the opt-out for stats.
* Apparently this is a bigger issue for a small number of extremely
vocal users. We should respect their wishes, no matter how off-base
their claims are in this context.
Change-Id: I9eef9a65260ec4e360d398f80d610a198c09c915
Thanks to: khaytsus
for posting the link
khaytsus said:
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there a way we can educate/frame a conversation around how to do this in a way accepting of the vocal crowd? Perhaps an outreach campaign, minimal in effort that might encourage more users to opt in? This is an area where fundamental good can be done. The same people who've been vocal should have no problem explaining what would get them to opt in.
I think this whole thing might have been a brief thing, but if the statistics really help the project, we can all have our cake and eat it too.
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khaytsus said:
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You knew you'd see a post crying about this because of all that data your collecting told you lol!
Just teasin!
I would have just frozen the background service. ...
We rooty types can do that sort of thing now days. ..
And just to prevent the assumption that I missed the point of the OP. ...I didn't, and can only imagine the amount of target data our carriers pull by simply using our device. (See lengthy contract and service agreement of your carrier)...
CM data is small potatoes by comparison. ..and while quite useful to them in the generation of custom firmwares, it's a useless data source for us.
I've freely given cyanogen my data for years. And in return Steve has given me high quality work for my trouble. .....privacy concerns accepted. ....g
The easiest way to prevent CM from getting any data from you is too not install, not really that hard to figure out.
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