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Guys, theres a movement in the community to get rid of this site which sells access to pirated paid apps. Now, this isnt to promote the site, this is to get rid of it. Please go here and sign the petition. All the information is there. Support app developers who work hard to make our phones better by helping to get rid of these pirates.
http://bit.ly/bkKwaZ
Support your community!
Also, if you follow this link: http://twitter.com/Mini_Lee/status/20682622042 it will take you to the tweet i put out with the petition link directly in it. So if you're one of those people with thousands of followers on twitter, send it out!
Done, and tweeting it.
Signed - thank you to whoever started this petition!
Been following this on Twitter today. Retweeted protests, and just signed this. I'll be honest, I pirate a lot of stuff, but I wouldn't pirate from a hard working Android dev. If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
OP updated with link to RT'able tweet link.
Kusotare, what do you intend to do with the results of the petition?
I checked, their domain is registered through GoDaddy and hidden by DomainsByProxy. I sent an e-mail to DomainsByProxy to see whether they actually respond to information about illegal activity. It has been my experience that such complaints to GoDaddy will go unanswered but e-mail is cheap so I hit them up too.
But in all honesty, this will be a minor hiccup, if it gets them taken down at all. The overall IP block is owned by Worldstream out of the Netherlands (according to the RIPE branch of IANA), although some tools report the actual location as Portugal. If you run a reverse IP lookup (try a good one like YouGetSignal), the web server at the same IP is also host to a bunch of Iranian spam and piracy blogs under the vatanblog.com domain, so my guess is whomever owns the server (which isn't going to be the same as those running the network where the IP block is managed) isn't going to be too worried about the results of a petition.
But I suppose it can't hurt to hit up Worldstream, so I've e-mailed them as well.
P.S. Phromik, speaking as a software developer who has been victimized by piracy, you're a hypocritical tool.
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
s15274n said:
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
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Click to collapse
Really no need for him to roll in here and brag about his piracy, is there?
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
Except he's not bragging... he's being honest.
srqt said:
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
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Click to collapse
GoDaddy are the domain registrant. The actual website is hosted on a dedicated server provided by worldstream.nl so you want to be contacting [email protected] as well as the Dutch anti-piracy outfit BREIN at [email protected]
It's interesting to note that the same dedicated server is being used to host several other warez sites including some pornography forums. I'm pretty sure neither the server provider or BREIN would be happy about these.
It's interesting to note that within the last 12 hours androidplayground has been taken offline. However I suspect this was done by the owner rather than any takedown notice. He has already set his twitter account to private and one of the last tweets he sent was about having a new server ready.
To Bad google isn't jumping on this. I mean you see his lame comment on nearly every app that comes out in the market.
What confuses me is why would somebody send him money to become a member knowing he/she is a thief in the first place.
The results of the petition will be sent to the domain registrar, the host and paypal in a three way attack. If all goes well, they'll lose their domain, hosting and ability to charge people through paypal simultaneously. I have already emailed all three of the companies to let them know about the petition.
So yes, while it may be a losing battle in the long run to fight piracy, at least we can do what we can. Signing a petition or firing off an email takes the same amount of time it does to write a post here, so why not help out?
Response from Worldstream:
Hi,
The website has been taken down earlier today.
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Dirk Vromans
Technical Engineer
Worldstream C.V.
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Click to collapse
Although from one of the earlier posts it sounds like the site owner was already planning to move it anyway -- which is what I was getting at earlier. The best you can hope for is to just go chasing him around endlessly.
I saw the same crap over and over in the Palm Treo software world...
The new licensing system might help. =]
Phromik said:
...If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
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Click to collapse
Whatever....
Without defending what I consider to be a low-life, who spams every review on the Market, most pirates wouldn't really buy most products they steal, just as most people don't normally pirate stuff they genuinely want and like.
There are a ton of pirate sources for the iPhone, yet good developers do pretty well in the App store.
The only developers whining are the ones who have a crappy product and blame the nebulous evil of "piracy" for their lack of success.
This is outrageous!! Piracy should be free.
I mean that completely tongue-in-cheek, as I spend a LOT of money on android software. I admit I don't hate piracy in general, as a sort of try-before-you-buy system, but charging money for stolen goods is evil. These people are scum.
Former AndroidPlayground.net user
I used to use this site because I just assumed that they had an agreement with the developers. I couldn't even imagine the audacity it would take to charge people for pirated software.
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
NOT trying to justify it, but it is something to consider.
jswanstr said:
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
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Click to collapse
I'm just guessing, but so far all data indicates that iPhone users seem to be significantly more willing to pay for apps. I'm hoping this changes as the Android becomes more mainstream.
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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Click to collapse
That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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Click to collapse
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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Click to collapse
+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Click to collapse
Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
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Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
.
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Normally this can happen only with vendor's signed rom. Only vendors do this sometimes. Examples: Conflipper, 911sniper and recently some other guys. Vendor was naturally HTC.
They all uploaded a lot of official roms to the private host, HTC investigated the case, found the possible leak source and framed them leaking the rom with backdoor. Thus vendor got personal data and later ganged up on them threatening prosecution.
So if you want to be 100% sure that you have back-door-free rom - cook custom Because chiefs don't give a $hit about your personal data, vendor - does!
P.S. And of course:
Remember, just because you're paranoid that doesn't mean that everyone's not out to get you!
than use only the shipt roms from factory , i have used many custum roms and never a problem now i use dynamics 2.0 and he is perfect.
the only thing wath is sure in live is your bird and dead
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. Don't tell this idea to anyone!
I have just bought a new sports car based on money stolen from your phones. New flat to come. Please, wait a little more! Don't spread this information.
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now without irony.
Of course, you can never be sure. But:
1) XDA-developers is a community of enthusiasts. If we were to steal anything, we could do it long ago. But, in that case, any other developer can reveal the truth about ROM internals and totally ruin reputation of that developer.
While reputation is just an "integer" value stored somewhere in XDA databases and people's minds, maintaining good "karma" in internet is still much more useful IRL (I guess many devs here can confirm it).
It is a pure hobby for almost everyone. Most of us have work, studies, lots of other things to do.
2) Windows Phone isn't really interesting for majority of "evil" hackers. It is a niche platform currently. It is nearly impossible to earn donations or get money any other way on this platform via development. Thus, I am quite sure all developers still keeping this platform alive are real enthusiasts without any criminal thoughts in minds.
3) Low interest leads to small amount of developers, lack of manuals, etc. Even "evil hackers" have to learn _how_ to do harm on specific platform. WP7 unofficial development has a big entry barrier, effectively filtering even power users.
You can ask what are the reasons most of us still work on this platform? Each software engineer loves when his code _works_, and WP7 limitations is better in this case. Because relatively small amount of native code works "out of the box" - I mean, without hours in debugger, decompiler, eyes red due to display backlight, nights spent in code
ultrashot said:
Now without irony.
Of course, you can never be sure. But:
1) XDA-developers is a community of enthusiasts. If we were to steal anything, we could do it long ago. But, in that case, any other developer can reveal the truth about ROM internals and totally ruin reputation of that developer.
While reputation is just an "integer" value stored somewhere in XDA databases and people's minds, maintaining good "karma" in internet is still much more useful IRL (I guess many devs here can confirm it).
It is a pure hobby for almost everyone. Most of us have work, studies, lots of other things to do.
2) Windows Phone isn't really interesting for majority of "evil" hackers. It is a niche platform currently. It is nearly impossible to earn donations or get money any other way on this platform via development. Thus, I am quite sure all developers still keeping this platform alive are real enthusiasts without any criminal thoughts in minds.
3) Low interest leads to small amount of developers, lack of manuals, etc. Even "evil hackers" have to learn _how_ to do harm on specific platform. WP7 unofficial development has a big entry barrier, effectively filtering even power users.
You can ask what are the reasons most of us still work on this platform? Each software engineer loves when his code _works_, and WP7 limitations is better in this case. Because relatively small amount of native code works "out of the box" - I mean, without hours in debugger, decompiler, eyes red due to display backlight, nights spent in code
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great comments all around. I'm not a paranoid person. But I couldn't help wondering. I have faith in the community all around, like you said. Accountability doesn't lead to deviousness, it leads to integrity. I've heard that the Android is the hacker phone of choice. Or maybe I was misled in my naivete'. One of the things that I noted in my toying with the xda apps, the root tools tell you to be careful about allowing all of your apps. It's big fun watching what you guys crank out. keep up the good work, and if there is threat out there- crank out some apps for it.:highfive:
This [New Approach to get HTC to listen.] thread was OP by hasoon2000, and stickied into Tony Stark's "General sticky."
It is more important now than ever to ask HTC to lend a hand, especially in making some unreleased code available.
Please see the link for the simple instructions.
Thanks,
pbergonzi
pbergonzi said:
This [New Approach to get HTC to listen.] thread was OP by hasoon2000, and stickied into Tony Stark's "General sticky."
It is more important now than ever to ask HTC to lend a hand, especially in making some unreleased code available.
Please see the link for the simple instructions.
Thanks,
pbergonzi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I followed the advice, contacting them, and within 12 hours got this reply, and attempted to provide the requested information:
"Dear (pbergonzi),
Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Support.
(pbergonzi), first of all I would like to thank you for being a member of our family of smart mobile devices. In this case, I want to make sure your request is passed along to our proper department. Remember your thoughts are imperative for us to grow as a community. Our goal is always to provide you with top of the line devices as well as a spectacular HTC experience.
In this case, in order to pass this information to the proper department, I will like to know the following:
• Carrier
• Android version / Software version requesting source code for
• Radio Version Note: This is Baseband version on Android devices
• Serial Number/MEID/ IMEI/ESN
• Software Number
• Full Name
• Email Address
• Contact Number
• Mobile Number
• Preferred Contact Time
• Time Zone
• Carrier
I look forward to your reply with the necessary informaiton. Please do not hesitate to contact us through http://www.htc.com/us/contact/email/ or call us at +1-866-449-8358 from (8 Am – 1 Am) ET, 7 days a week or you can reply to this email by clicking on the link below.
Thank you for being a member of our HTC community and I wish you a good day!
If this answers your comment or question, please click here to complete the process.
To submit another comment, please click here.
Sincerely,
The HTCDev Team
Want to see what others are saying? Have a question to ask other HTCDev fans?
Follow us on Twitter www.twitter.com/htcdev
Explore our development resources www.htcdev.com
We are unable to receive replies to this email account. Please visit us at www.htcdev.com if you have any questions or need further assistance."
I can only imagine what would happen if 5 million more of us contacted them.
pbergonzi said:
I followed the advice, contacting them, and within 12 hours got this reply, and attempted to provide the requested information:
"Dear (pbergonzi),
Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Support.
(pbergonzi), first of all I would like to thank you for being a member of our family of smart mobile devices. In this case, I want to make sure your request is passed along to our proper department. Remember your thoughts are imperative for us to grow as a community. Our goal is always to provide you with top of the line devices as well as a spectacular HTC experience.
In this case, in order to pass this information to the proper department, I will like to know the following:
• Carrier
• Android version / Software version requesting source code for
• Radio Version Note: This is Baseband version on Android devices
• Serial Number/MEID/ IMEI/ESN
• Software Number
• Full Name
• Email Address
• Contact Number
• Mobile Number
• Preferred Contact Time
• Time Zone
• Carrier
I look forward to your reply with the necessary informaiton. Please do not hesitate to contact us through http://www.htc.com/us/contact/email/ or call us at +1-866-449-8358 from (8 Am – 1 Am) ET, 7 days a week or you can reply to this email by clicking on the link below.
Thank you for being a member of our HTC community and I wish you a good day!
If this answers your comment or question, please click here to complete the process.
To submit another comment, please click here.
Sincerely,
The HTCDev Team
Want to see what others are saying? Have a question to ask other HTCDev fans?
Follow us on Twitter www.twitter.com/htcdev
Explore our development resources www.htcdev.com
We are unable to receive replies to this email account. Please visit us at www.htcdev.com if you have any questions or need further assistance."
I can only imagine what would happen if 5 million more of us contacted them.
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Click to collapse
I hate to rain on your parade, but you're referencing a nearly two year old post that was made at a time when HTC wasn't unlocking devices or providing source code for them. Tens of thousands did write letters and signed several online petitions, the most famous of which was at change.org. HTC eventually did bow to pressure and provided the means to unlock boot-loaders and released the source code. It's why we and other HTC owners can run different kernels and ROMs now, without jumping through hoops trying crazy hacks and exploits to do so.
The issues are now with the component manufacturers like Texas Instruments and Qualcomm who have yet to release up to date open sourced drivers for newer kernels. Heck, it took petitions and a letter writing campaign just to get them to release the stale sources we have now that were already nearly two years old. Don't hold your breath that they'll be inclined to release any newer ones for a device as old as ours is.
Sorry to give you the bad news but you're jumping in with this pretty late in the game. Our device wasn't a big seller, and was eclipsed by lighter more powerful units within 3 months of its release. All but a handful of devs left for greener pastures long ago. What we have left is a small group of dedicated diehards who are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. Just be thankful that we have them, and that any work is still being done here.
Look at this forum, on a busy day there's maybe 6-7 posts, but on average 2-3. Were lucky that the powers that run this place haven't relegated us to "legacy" status yet. Again, I don't want to down you out, but even if every active reader of this forum were to run out and immediately do as you suggest, we'd be lucky to get a hundred sent in. I'm sorry, but these are the facts. To believe anything else would be at best hopeless optimism, or at worst pure fantasy. Just my opinion.
Ciao
Oh, thanks Odysseus. The history lesson was edifying and poignant. Since the subject was stickied, it still seemed relevant.
Nevertheless, after ravike mentioned just recently about communicating with someone there, I thought communication at the very least wouldn't hurt, and who knows if someone somewhere might just change something. I think that energy spent in changing my mind would be better spent and more psychically rewarding directed toward HTC, even though presumably useless. You for example, are certainly articulate enough that your words might well work a lasting sympathetic response in a developer, and who knows where that will go, even if he doesn't directly reply in kind--he might for example, be kinder to the person who brings his coffee, just as an example.
Granted, 5 million members of xda are not about to contact HTC, however, as the little sparrow, with feet pointed skyward to prevent it from falling, said to the chuckling farmer who doubted him, "One does what one can."
Sorry to Burst Your Bubble
Odysseus1962 said:
I hate to rain on your parade, but you're referencing a nearly two year old post that was made at a time when HTC wasn't unlocking devices or providing source code for them. Tens of thousands did write letters and signed several online petitions, the most famous of which was at change.org. HTC eventually did bow to pressure and provided the means to unlock boot-loaders and released the source code. It's why we and other HTC owners can run different kernels and ROMs now, without jumping through hoops trying crazy hacks and exploits to do so.
The issues are now with the component manufacturers like Texas Instruments and Qualcomm who have yet to release up to date open sourced drivers for newer kernels. Heck, it took petitions and a letter writing campaign just to get them to release the stale sources we have now that were already nearly two years old. Don't hold your breath that they'll be inclined to release any newer ones for a device as old as ours is.
Sorry to give you the bad news but you're jumping in with this pretty late in the game. Our device wasn't a big seller, and was eclipsed by lighter more powerful units within 3 months of its release. All but a handful of devs left for greener pastures long ago. What we have left is a small group of dedicated diehards who are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. Just be thankful that we have them, and that any work is still being done here.
Look at this forum, on a busy day there's maybe 6-7 posts, but on average 2-3. Were lucky that the powers that run this place haven't relegated us to "legacy" status yet. Again, I don't want to down you out, but even if every active reader of this forum were to run out and immediately do as you suggest, we'd be lucky to get a hundred sent in. I'm sorry, but these are the facts. To believe anything else would be at best hopeless optimism, or at worst pure fantasy. Just my opinion.
Ciao
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+1
@pbergonzi I do appreciate that you are trying to help, but the Amaze is LONG dead. If you decide to visit HTC's official website, the Amaze has vanished. They are pretending it never existed. The only things left are old drivers and antiquated software support from HTC (doesn't apply to us anymore). From what I saw, they only released source because they would have been breaking the GPL, thus decreasing their reputation as a smartphone manufacturer.
Also, it's not that HTC doesn't want to support us, it's that they can't. Texas Instruments doesn't support our chipset, and never will because this phone didn't sell. HTC has absolutely no obligation to release source code for less than a dozen hobbyist developers. They have better things to do, like develop for the HTC One. Why would they care about us. That's the ugly unwritten truth about companies.
If they do decide to spontaneously resume support, I will buy 3 goats, paint numbers "1", "2", and "4" on them and release the goats while in school and let them run wild!
pbergonzi said:
Oh, thanks Odysseus. The history lesson was edifying and poignant. Since the subject was stickied, it still seemed relevant.
Nevertheless, after ravike mentioned just recently about communicating with someone there, I thought communication at the very least wouldn't hurt, and who knows if someone somewhere might just change something. I think that energy spent in changing my mind would be better spent and more psychically rewarding directed toward HTC, even though presumably useless. You for example, are certainly articulate enough that your words might well work a lasting sympathetic response in a developer, and who knows where that will go, even if he doesn't directly reply in kind--he might for example, be kinder to the person who brings his coffee, just as an example.
Granted, 5 million members of xda are not about to contact HTC, however, as the little sparrow, with feet pointed skyward to prevent it from falling, said to the chuckling farmer who doubted him, "One does what one can."
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Click to collapse
Listen, I hope my comments haven't dampened your enthusiasm. I truly love this device. It's the perfect size for my needs, takes great photos, and connects to the net much faster than the HD2 it replaced. The hardware still holds its own 3 years after release. It was the top of the line when it came out and the build quality that one would expect from a high-end product is evident wherever you look on the device.
The only problem with it is software, in particular an outdated OS. The very software that allows lesser devices to perform better than this, is what's holding it back. Please don't be discouraged, instead learn what you can so that you too can contribute to our small, but loyal community. Together, each in his own way, we can continue to keep the amaze alive.
Maybe it should be "New Approach to get Texas Instuments to listen."
Like for example, in the TI Engineer to Engineer community, where ravike14 is trying to get a little satisfaction regarding unreleased code:
http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/307/p/305896/1089531.aspx#1089531