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Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
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IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
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This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
Well i started a thread about how we need source and everyones favorite mod sgt.slaughter came in and broke up the keyboard warrior fest and shed some light on us and told us to all start asking about source using the example of the folks in the 3d forums who teamed up to get a bootloader unlock which while its kinda half assed, at least they did something.
Many users interested in the development on HTC devices have recently been becoming more and more frustrated with HTC's policy on kernel source code releases. While other companys such as Samsung release their kernel source the same day as a phone is released or an update is pushed to a device, HTC follows a different path. HTC while is supporting development via their bootloader unlocking tools, which we are thankful for, they seem to not care when it comes to how long after an update is pushed or a phone is released that it takes them to release their source code. By doing this they are hindering development on their own devices and tempting developers to leave HTC and move on to Samsung due to the greater support for developers of samsung devices.
The GPL states that the source must be released within 14 of a request of such code. However, it doesn't state a grace period or a timeline for which it has to be released. HTC says that "HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days" (HTCDEV) and in this time they claim that they are still complying with the rules and regulations of the GPL v2.0. This wait is far too long however because after this time and they finally release the source code it may be out of date by 2 maybe 3 updates. This hinders the development on said devices because once a phone is updated, the only source they have to work with is outdated and may be either very hard to work into the new update or even impossible to use on the new software.
Others have alread tried to change the ways of HTC in the past with no success. The below quoted info is from the creator of gpl-violations.org (Harald Welte) and explains his attempts to alter HTC's policy with no success:
"There have been various reports and blog posts about HTC again committing copyright infringement by not fulfilling the GPLv2 license conditions in their latest Android phone, the G2.
While at this point I haven't studied the situation enough in order to confirm or deny any actual violations, let me state this: The number of GPL Violation reports/allegations that we receive at gpl-violations.org on HTC by far outnumber the reports that we have ever received about any other case or company.
In addition, HTC seems to have had a long trail of problems with GPL compliance in their devices. Ever since they have started to ship Android devices containing the Linux kernel, licensed under GPLv2+, we have received those reports.
The reason I have never taken any legal action is merely a result of the fact that HTC seems to first introduce their new devices in the US, then at some point release the corresponding source code before shipping those devices into Europe and Germany. So by the time the devices are sold over here, the legal issues appear to have been resolved before.
Nonetheless, I think it is outrageous for a company of this size and significance in the market to consistently commit copyright violation (or at least walk borderline with it) and thus mistreat the very copyright holders that have created the operating system kernel they use in their devices. The linux kernel developers and the Free Software community as a whole deserve fair treatment.
Also, the competitors of HTC deserve fair treatment: Samsung, e.g. is very forthcoming with their Android phone source code releases. If I was them and would see HTC to fail to comply with the GPL, I would consider filing a unfair competition lawsuit..." (Harald Welte)
This is a follow up post on his blog where he explains more:
"The Taiwanese smart phone maker HTC is widely known to be delaying its Linux kernel source code releases of their Android products. Initially, this has been described to to the requirement for source code review, and making sure that no proprietary portions are ending up in the release.
While the point is sort-of moot from the beginning (there should be no proprietary portions inside the Linux kernel for a product that wants to avoid entering any legal grey zone in the first place), I was willing to accept/tolerate it for some time.
At one point more than one year ago, gpl-violations.org actually had the opportunity to speak in person to senior HTC staff about this. I made it very clear that this delay is not acceptable, and that they should quickly fix their processes in order to make sure they reduce that delay, eventually down to zero.
Recently, I received news that the opposite is happening. HTC still has the same delays, and they are now actually claiming that even a 120 days delay is in compliance with the license.
I do think neither the paying HTC customers, nor tha Free Software community as a whole have to tolerate those delays. It is true that the GPLv2 doesn't list a deadline until when the source code has to be provided, but it is at the same also very clear what the license wants: To enable people to study the program source code. Especially in todays rapid smart phone product cycles, 120 days is a very long time.
So I hereby declare my patience has ended here. I am determined to bring those outrageous delays to an end. This will be one of my new year resolutions for 2012: Use whatever means possible to make HTC understand that this is not how you can treat Free Software, the community, its customers, the GPL and in the end, copyright itself." (Harald Welte)
The goal of this petition is not to bring down HTC but rather to have them change their ways when it comes to releasing source code. We would like to see source the same day as updates and phone releases so that developers can make use of this code; play with it, learn from it, and promote future development on HTC devices.
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Anyway lets get to the point. Below there is links to their email, twitter, facebook, etc and you guys message them and post what you said below and i will add it to the op here so others can use that message.
also, as sgt.slaughter said, DONT ASK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SOURCE. We need to stick to the point here. Don't threaten them or rage at them.
Spread this to other HTC Device forums that aren't getting source if you know of any, the more people we get to the better.
Mods i will update this as often as possible if people actually follow it so perhaps a temp sticky?
Also don't flood this with a bunch of "I won't buy HTC again" talk. It will just make this harder.
Petition Link
Link: http://www.change.org/petitions/htc-htc-needs-to-speed-up-kernel-source-releases?share_id=sLjvObpqne
Personal Contacts [thanks sgt.slaughter]
[email protected]; Senior Director Enterprise Business Unit Americas
[email protected]; Chairman
[email protected]; Chief Marketing Officer, HTC Corporation
[email protected]; Senior Public Relations Manager at HTC 425-679-5328
[email protected]; COO of HTC
[email protected]; Board Member of HTC
[email protected]; CEO
[email protected]; VP HTC
[email protected]; Chief Innovation Officer
Brent Groome, Chief Executive-Customer Operations, at 843-369-8393 or [email protected]
To email all of them at once, copy and paste this:
PHP:
[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected]
HTC
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htc
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/HTC
Email: http://www.htc.com/us/support/email-support
HTCDEV
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Facebook: Don't think they have one
Email: http://www.htcdev.com/contact
HTC USA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HTCUSA
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/htcusa
Updates:
Today 8/9/12 i received an email back from HTC giving me the same B.S. they give everyone about the 90 days. Heres the email.
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week, Mike.
If this answers your comment or question, please click here to complete the process.
To submit another comment, please click here.
Sincerely,
The HTCDev Team
--------------------------- then i sent this
No where in the GPL does it state that you guys have 90 days to release the source code nor does it give you a grace period. you guys have the code already all that has to be done is a simple upload. samsung does it, motorola does it, why can't HTC release their code within a few days of an update? a petition is being started on xda-developers where there is a lot of people that feel the same way and it will only get bigger. you guys will be hearing a lot from us soon.
--------------------------------their reply
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for your reply. Your feedback has been forwarded to the appropriate department for documentation. I hope you enjoy your week!
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Quotes from you guys:
Racer Of All said:
Hello and thank you for writing in.
Since we are discussing the Linux Kernel, I will refer to version 2 of
the GPL. GPLv2 lays out the terms under which a party can distribute a
work in "object code or executable form" in section 3. The party in
question must do so in one of three ways, but for commercial entities
such as HTC only the first two are relevant: Accompany the binary with
the source (section 3.a), or accompany the binary with a written offer
to provide the source (section 3.b).
Complying with section 3 via subsection (a) is the fastest, safest and
easiest way since section 3 compliance is achieved immediately; you get
the binary and the source together. But according to your description
HTC has opted for section 3.b instead. It is true that section 3.b
doesn't spell out exactly how fast the offer for the corresponding
source code must be deal with, but note that it doesn't explicitly state
a grace-period either. So in order to be in compliance with distribution
under section 3.b, a timely response would be best.
I hope this answer is of help. If you have further questions, please
feel free to write back.
--
I am not a lawyer, the above is not legal advice
* *Regards, Your Name Here
Above is in reference to this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29932331&postcount=27
A whole bunch or useful information thanks to Racer of All :http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29940548&postcount=9
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premo15 said:
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Original Post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29951917&postcount=13
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I have been posting this on their facebook walls fee free to use it.
----------------------------
HTC when are you going to follow the GPL and stop using the 90 day excuse? No where does the GPL state that you have 90 days to release it nor does it give a grace period. Use samsung as an example. They release their source code within a few hours of an update if not prior to one. Why can't you do the same? All that your hesitation causes is frustration among the developer community and hinder development for your devices. We know you take some ideas from us because you have decided to swap the recent apps key and use it as a menu which the developers have done on the evo lte within a week of the phones release. We scratch your back, you scratch ours.
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In order to get the sweeping changes we want (to get source released as soon as device is dropped like samsung does) we will need more than our EVO 4G LTE users.
We need all HTC users behind this. Anyway we can get this up on their sections of the forum as well?
true, perhaps submit this to the xda portal and then maybe expand to other sites such as engadget? i already started spreading it to themikmik but only in the evo lte section so far. add me on google talk and we will collaborate. ill send my email via pm
I posted a section on android forums where I am a guide. I'll spread the word there.
I'll hit you up tomorrow
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
ive sent messages to rootzwiki, themikmik, and xda portal to see if they will write about this and help spread the word. for now im going to bed since its 2a.m.
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
Rxpert said:
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
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I will try to get this done this afternoon when I come home from work.
I passed the word on to android central.
nice job!
need to toss in examples of how HTC is failing compared to the other manufacturers in terms of time they release source...cite Samsung and Motorola and time of OTA released to devices, and then time they released their source code...Show HTC that they are the ONLY one's playing this 90day rule bs crap and its hurting the development community greatly, in turn causing people to leave...
I will be sending emails to the aforementioned news sources as well as my tech friends. It really is a shame companies like HTC can get away with violating the GPL like this. If only we could convince a person with copyright on part of the Linux kernel to join our ranks we could win overnight
Oh in addition to the above email I send them I also found another one that was between a head dev of red hat Linux, I'll see if I can dig it up.
EDIT: Found it, post by Matthew Garrett, developer of red hat linux posted the next couple of entries. They are very interesting reads about the entire situation:
HTC is Willfully Violating the GPL by Matthew Garrett:
As has been discussed before, HTC have a somewhat "interesting" interpretation of the GPL that allows them to claim they don't need to provide source code until between 90 and 120 days after the release of binaries. It's probably noteworthy that the FSF (who, you know, wrote the license and all) disagree with this interpretation, as do the kernel copyright holders (who, you know, wrote the code that the license covers) I've talked to about it. Anyway, after a pile of screaming and shouting from all sides HTC have tended to release their source code in a timely manner. So things seemed better.
HTC released the Thunderbolt last week and we're back to the 90-120 day song and dance. It's probably worth remembering that by behaving in this way HTC gain a competitive advantage over any vendors who obey the terms of their license - HTC can incorporate improvements made by others without releasing their own until through a significant portion of the lifecycle of their phone.
As far as I'm concerned, every single Thunderbolt sold so far embodies a copyright infringement. Wilfully engaging in copyright infringement for commercial benefit is typically frowned upon by courts, especially if by doing so a foreign company is gaining commercial advantage over a domestic one. If you think Microsoft's patent assault on Android is a problem, just imagine what they could do if they hired one significant Linux kernel developer and used their copyrights to attack the overwhelming majority of Android vendors who fail to comply with the GPL. It probably wouldn't be industry ending (companies would merely have improve their compliance procedures) but it'd do a huge deal of damage in the short term. It's insane for companies to behave this way. Don't reward them by giving them your money.
I'll be talking about this at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit next month, along with an update on my study of the compliance of Android tablets. I'm hoping that there'll be further developments after that.
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These two entries are also by Matthew Garrett but they're more a generalized point of view about GPL violations in general and why it's an incentive to do so:
The economic incentive to violate the GPL
The ongoing fight against GPL enforcement
Also let me make this clear (because I've seen people bring this up before): people here aren't complaining that without source we can't do anything or that our devs REQUIRE it. The point is that the Linux kernel is licensed under the GPL and that our devs SHOULDN'T NEED to work without it. It's free open sourced code. We don't care for the "but HTC has hundreds of phones to support please give them [email protected]!" argument either. The GPL is pretty clear, you can use anything licensed under it but if you release a commercial product with it, source MUST be released and source code is easier to distribute than the binary they built using it. It's a non-issue for them.
Sorry for the massive edit. I just love open source software and the advantages it provides for technology and by proxy -- society. I mean, open source is literally everywhere and I can't stand companies with big bucks being able to "buy" their way out of what open source stands for. If you use something licensed under the GPL you MUST provide source. You don't have a day, you don't have a week. You have to either release it alongside the binary or provide it upon request.
I'm done
Sent from my Nexus 7
Glad to wake up and see this thread!
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Give me source or give me death!!
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
premo15 said:
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
fachadick said:
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
sgt. slaughter said:
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
fachadick said:
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I recall thats how we took the bootloader unlock to them too...Samsung allows unlocking, and HTC used to not be encrypted at least....then they encrypted and all hell broke loose, and their facebook was completely blowing up for weeks straight....so much that they couldnt' manage all the negative posts on there and eventually released a comment on it and changed their ways...
working on starting a petition now. will update the op with it shortly.
EDIT: still working on it. i set one up but i think it has to be approved first before being put on their site. will update as soon as possible
premo15 said:
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
got that covered, check the op. has direct contacts now
My canned response from HTC DEV
:Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
owen1978 said:
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between your case and the Kindle though is that they're selling the hardware, not the software per se. Seems like selling a ROM would be getting in lots of complicated legalese stuff. You know, opening a can of worms.
You can get more information here:
http://source.android.com/
You cant take something thats open source write your own code ontop of it and call it closed source... Google has made that code opensource for a reason and im sure there are tons of legal issues that go with that... And it being Google's proprietary code means you cant sell it unless you buy it off them Im sure...
I'm pretty sure you can't do that. I could be wrong but i think as stated above if your using any of the open sources and then trying to sell it yourself you might be facing some legal issues. Plus would it sell? Are other roms available for that phone if so then why would choose to buy a rom? (just some questions that i would ask myself) Does it make sense to sell it even if you could? I think all the hassle you might go through isn't worth it. Especially if you might face a ton of legal issues.
Ask your self is it right decision to sell something that is based on something that is free and open source.
owen1978 said:
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think that it would be illegal. (Although it probably would not sale.
You could patent/copyright parts of it as many OEMs have done this (Like Samsung and Motorola)
Pneuma1985 said:
You cant take something thats open source write your own code ontop of it and call it closed source... Google has made that code opensource for a reason and im sure there are tons of legal issues that go with that... And it being Google's proprietary code means you cant sell it unless you buy it off them Im sure...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
y0yerrj0sh said:
I'm pretty sure you can't do that. I could be wrong but i think as stated above if your using any of the open sources and then trying to sell it yourself you might be facing some legal issues. Plus would it sell? Are other roms available for that phone if so then why would choose to buy a rom? (just some questions that i would ask myself) Does it make sense to sell it even if you could? I think all the hassle you might go through isn't worth it. Especially if you might face a ton of legal issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most, if not all, of the OEMs such as HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG incorporate thier own code into thier Android running on thier devices. While the Android code itself is under GPL and other open source classifications, much of the code OEMs put into thier builds is closed source (Sense, TouchWiz, Beats, etc.) and not subject to open source classifications. Therefore these companies DO NOT have to release that code.
The most important part though is that Apple has made a living suing Android OEMs for things they have patented that they claim Android infringes upon and have won some. THey do not attack Google, but the OEMs USING android. You may leave yourself open to legal implications with other companies like Apple.
However, I do not know your skill level, but given that you are asking the question, it seems as though you are just getting into this. Actally writing code and developing ROMs is pretty intense and I would think odds are you are getting much further ahead of yourself than you think.
Good luck to you, but most people on here do it for the fun/hobby and do not make any substantial money from thier efforts.
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
mv_style said:
Ask your self is it right decision to sell something that is based on something that is free and open source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, ALL THE OEMs making Android devices are doing this.
raptoro07 said:
I don't think that it would be illegal. (Although it probably would not sale.
You could patent/copyright parts of it as many OEMs have done this (Like Samsung and Motorola)
Most, if not all, of the OEMs such as HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG incorporate thier own code into thier Android running on thier devices. While the Android code itself is under GPL and other open source classifications, much of the code OEMs put into thier builds is closed source (Sense, TouchWiz, Beats, etc.) and not subject to open source classifications. Therefore these companies DO NOT have to release that code.
The most important part though is that Apple has made a living suing Android OEMs for things they have patented that they claim Android infringes upon and have won some. THey do not attack Google, but the OEMs USING android. You may leave yourself open to legal implications with other companies like Apple.
However, I do not know your skill level, but given that you are asking the question, it seems as though you are just getting into this. Actally writing code and developing ROMs is pretty intense and I would think odds are you are getting much further ahead of yourself than you think.
Good luck to you, but most people on here do it for the fun/hobby and do not make any substantial money from thier efforts.
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
Again, ALL THE OEMs making Android devices are doing this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But once again, most OEMs don't sell Android in itself, but the hardware, with their customized Android version. There's quite a leap between repackaging Android and selling it and selling hardware with your software, based on Android, on it.
You are right about certain parts being closed source though.
You shouldn't develop something that is free and sell it for money. You may run into legal issues and perhaps a cease and desist order from Google when they find out. There's a reason android is open source. If it wasn't for legal issues, I would happily buy it from you if the ROM pretty awesome.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
AW: Develop a ROM and Sell it???
As far as I know Android is published on Apache License 2.0. If I understood the license correctly, you can use / modify / distribute projects based on the code as long as you declare what you used and as long as you distribute the license with your project, too.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
You can develop your own code into Android and sell it.
The problem is no one would buy it. You need much larger than a 1 man show to actually develop software. You may be able to write it yourself, but you can't possibly test it. Which is exactly why it won't sell. Any company who is in the market for a custom Android image would more than likely have their own in house team of coders, and the cost effictive way to move forward would be to have their own guys do it, even if they had to learn.
But self improvement is always great, I'd give it a shot anyway, just don't quit your job!
Google is a huge entity and not a force to be reckoned with.....
Sent from my Fire Kindling A-Pad
I read in a forum that the open source rules that HTC has 90 day to release the source code for the kernel for this latest release of ICS. Is that true? If so why would HTC wait and not release it immediately? What do they have to gain? I want to overclock my rooted -deoxed ICS TBlolt HTC!!!
HTC has a lot of proprietary code in the kernel source for this phone that they like to wait as long as possible to release.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
They act like the competition isn't already right there with them anyway...I understand protecting their work, but at the same time the other companies aren't complete buffoons either, it's not like HTC source code will give them some huge boost when they already have their own ways of doing the same things...
Sorry, I really hope that made sense lol...had knee surgery today, drugs still wearing off
Sent from my ADR6400L using xda app-developers app
Most likely just policy that is blindly executed. Makes sense for a brand new phone, but come on, this is like the 5th update for the TB, so its not like the skirt has not already been hiked.
This is one of only two phones that has svdo capabilities. I think HTC is trying to keep it under wraps skin that the competition doesn't try using it for their benefit. The rezound has it and they always end up waiting for 90 days to get their sources too.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
There's no "90 day grace period." The GPLv2 (which covers Linux) is clear.
Anyone who doesn't make source code available simultaneously with a public distribution of the Linux kernel is playing with fire. Any contributor to the Linux kernel could sue for copyright violation, and HTC could lose ALL rights to distribute Linux, forever. ("Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. ") So, by not making source code available at the same time as the software, they're taking a very considerable risk with a large part of their business. Good luck trying to sell Android phones if you don't have a license for Linux.
Well that's what they have been doing for around 3 years with this phone and they still do it. Everyone knows they are violating the gpl but it is obvious that Google or whoever regulates the gpl doesn't even care. Send htc an email about what you just posted and then post the response you get. They are kind of funny.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
No one "regulates" the GPL. It's up to a kernel contributor (who would hold copyright on his/her contributions to the kernel) to sue for copyright infringement, since HTC is violating the terms of the GPL. There are probably hundreds of people who could sue, if they wanted.
Someone has to regulate it or the whole gpl process is bogus. What would be the point of implementing it in the first place if there isn't an organization or federal body that governs the gpl? Anyway, I reported them to the gnu public licensing organization. I'll post up the response. I think because htc holds copyrights on some of the software they can wait a period of time before releasing source.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
disconnecktie said:
Someone has to regulate it or the whole gpl process is bogus.... Anyway, I reported them to the gnu public licensing organization.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just....wow. You really don't understand how it works, at all. No, it's not "bogus." There is no "gnu public licensing organization." Did you mean the Free Software Foundation, which wrote the GPL? They have nothing to do with enforcing Linux licenses. As I said, that's strictly up to those who contributed to, and therefore hold copyright on, the Linux kernel.
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html
Have fun, only people who currently own copyright on the source can sue or enforce in any way.
If you really want to do something about HTC, do the little check list there and turn them in for no source, incomplete source, no written offer of source, no copy of the GPL distributed with every update (at least that I can find).
Turn that information into the FSF (free software foundation) or anyone else you know owns partial copyright for the linux source.
After all that is done, you will realize that nothing will happen because while technically they are breaking the GPL, they also are providing more benefit to the the community as a whole by releasing phones with android (linux) on them and adding their own custom software which in turn becomes more open source software for the community.
*TLDR*
Deal with it.
How can I check to see if they have released the source code for this ICS release for the tbolt?
Sent from my. ADR6400L using xda app-developers app
Go to htcdev and look under kernel source.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
So like here?
http://www.htcdev.com/DevCenter/downloads
Yea just select the thunderbolt under the devices tab.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
What are your thoughts on the "Anti Piracy Support" being implemented into their ROMS
ROM Developers are now starting to implement this "Anti Piracy Support" . Many of them do and some of them don't.
So what is AntiPiracySupport?
Meaning, this will block the installation of pirated apps, malware and patchers.
For you, is it good or bad?
Roms that have AntiPiracySupport builtin:
+ ACIP:
Commits in Github: YES
+resurrectionremix
Commits in Github: YES
+ Exodus:
Commits in Github: YES
+ BrokenOS
Commits in Github: YES
+ My Rom Builds(if no other info is added):
Commits in Github: YES
Roms that don't have AntiPiracySupport builtin now:
+ AOSPA
Commit in Gerrit: NO
+ Official OmniRom:
Commit in Gerrit: NO
For me it is very bad. Because in my country many of the apps I need are blocked and some of it wasnt compatible with mi3. So big no to Anti Piracy Support for me. Sorry developers.
Bitti09 said:
Roms that have AntiPiracySupport builtin:...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This might help guys :thumbup:
Any it should be AICP not ACIP hahaha!
Sent from my MI 3W using XDA Free mobile app
Here's my take on this blacklist idea.
At least 40% of the reason I bought my first Android after years of iPhones was for ad blocking. I just don't get the reason for clumsily trying to turn a custom rom into iOS. So I did a little digging and found a discussion about this blacklist from an Exodus dev who wrote "The only real reason not to support this is if you support piracy and stealing from developers."
Maybe someone can tell me whether it's a joke or Dave doesn't understand the issues. It takes little brainpower to deduce that app names can be trivially changed, as we've already seen and can even be seen in the blacklist code. So blacklisting apps by name and hardcoding that in your rom is a losing proposition from the start, right?
To stay up to date somebody would need to track package names and add them manually and hope everyone conveniently forgets the past 3+ decades of battles between malware writers and AV guys, eg when viruses started creating their own pseudo-random names to avoid the crummier scanners which Exodus is trying to emulate. We've already seen this simplistic blacklist approach can't possibly scale. Check the google+ link and you see that Kessler is trying to crowdsource a list of app names to blacklist. What happens when somebody maliciously or mistakenly adds a commonly used, objectively benign app? Who is the final arbiter of which apps get the boot? Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?
Factor in Exodus blocking my fave ad service disabler (probably an Irish app ) and debating whether to block Xposed and you have a powerful user motivation to bypass or completely avoid the blacklist and stop it from removing/disabling legit functionality. It seem likely that roms with Exodus' Anti-Adblock anti-feature will be forked if they're worth using. Not to mention, this blacklist only works if the blocked apps play along & their package names never change, and if the user has no motivation to bypass the blacklist. Extra bonus: v2 of the blacklist will be more like real malware, with obfuscated & closed source libraries.
Dave's false dichotomy is basically saying if you don't want spam or ads or closed source crapware clogging your device then you support piracy. I think Dave should've added, another reason not to support this endeavor is because poorly conceived code that goes against user wishes should ALWAYS be turfed.
tl;dr Why would anybody let this guy decide which apps are ok and which aren't, and using an old-school blacklist too? SMH.
XDA fully supports this. IF you cant pay for an app then you dont need it.
zelendel said:
XDA fully supports this. IF you cant pay for an app then you dont need it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What if you want to use app but first want to check the quality of app or you don't have money for every app?
Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
ashish289 said:
What if you want to use app but first want to check the quality of app or you don't have money for every app?
Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well then you wait to have the money or use a free version. If there is no free version then you save up the money
Is this gonna be a requirement for rom developers?
I'm not against it. But I think it should be something optional. If the rom developer wants to implement it, that's ok. But I think the consumers should have a right to decide whether the rom supports this or not. I mean, like a democracy, the consumers vote, that's something fair...
zelendel said:
XDA fully supports this. IF you cant pay for an app then you dont need it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you speak for the whole XDA community? hehehe Anyways you've got a point there.
But I don't see the point of doing apps developer's job. If they want anti-piracy security for their apps they'll get it (built in), unless it's an offline app. So I wouldn't bother trying to prevent the inevitable...
ChazyTheBest said:
Is this gonna be a requirement for rom developers?
I'm not against it. But I think it should be something optional. If the rom developer wants to implement it, that's ok. But I think the consumers should have a right to decide whether the rom supports this or not. I mean, like a democracy, the consumers vote, that's something fair...
Can you speak for the whole XDA community? hehehe Anyways you've got a point there.
But I don't see the point of doing apps developer's job. If they want anti-piracy security for their apps they'll get it (built in), unless it's an offline app. So I wouldn't bother trying to prevent the inevitable...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well your first mistake was thinking you are a consumer. Not in the least. Nor do users have a say in what rom devs put in their roms. Roms are built by people for personal use and then shared to be nice. If you dont like it then you are more then welcome to build your own rom.
Second mistake was thinking it is a democracy. Its not. Users really dont have a say in what rom devs put in their roms.
All I can say is that XDA stands behind this and anything that is used to get around it is banned from the site for good.
zelendel said:
Well your first mistake was thinking you are a consumer. Not in the least. Nor do users have a say in what rom devs put in their roms. Roms are built by people for personal use and then shared to be nice. If you dont like it then you are more then welcome to build your own rom.
Second mistake was thinking it is a democracy. Its not. Users really dont have a say in what rom devs put in their roms.
All I can say is that XDA stands behind this and anything that is used to get around it is banned from the site for good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for the misunderstood, but I said it because I read rom developers ask for features and bugfixing. So I'll take it as it depends on the developer... some devs are like you said and some others "really care" about what users need/want.
ChazyTheBest said:
Sorry for the misunderstood, but I said it because I read rom developers ask for features and bugfixing. So I'll take it as it depends on the developer... some devs are like you said and some others "really care" about what users need/want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you really ever seen Real developers ask this? No. The only ones that do are the ones that do nothing more really then cherry pick other roms commits. There are very few real developer teams around. The rest are what we like to call winzip wizards or compile wizards.
The ones that "really care" As you say are only really doing it for donations. I know it is hard to understand in this forum as there are none of the big teams here as none of them are willing to touch Xiaomi Devices. Heck I know I am not even allowed to use one due to my job.
In the end it is up to the dev to add this if they wish but ill let you in on a secret. Most devs are working closely with each other to make this better. There is even a commit that blocks xposed frameworks.
As XDA stand completely behind it and against warez most of the things that this targets are already banned on the site. Things like lucky patcher and freedom. Both are forever banned on the site.
zelendel said:
Have you really ever seen Real developers ask this? No. The only ones that do are the ones that do nothing more really then cherry pick other roms commits. There are very few real developer teams around. The rest are what we like to call winzip wizards or compile wizards.
The ones that "really care" As you say are only really doing it for donations. I know it is hard to understand in this forum as there are none of the big teams here as none of them are willing to touch Xiaomi Devices. Heck I know I am not even allowed to use one due to my job.
In the end it is up to the dev to add this if they wish but ill let you in on a secret. Most devs are working closely with each other to make this better. There is even a commit that blocks xposed frameworks.
As XDA stand completely behind it and against warez most of the things that this targets are already banned on the site. Things like lucky patcher and freedom. Both are forever banned on the site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very good explanation. Now I see it from that point of view, you are right.
@zelendel:
I certainly have supported and I am prepared to support more app developers who provide me free software (free as in freedom not free beer), and I'm not interested in buying closed source apps from the playstore, so I'm not really affected by this issue, but seriously? Preventing users from running the software they want on their phone? These opinions are grossing me out. Thankfully (and this might have been one of the most important advances in whole history) the creators of the software that most of our Android world is based on, have shown more wisdom and created the GPL, that forces everyone who wants to be part of this world to open source and to free their own variations of it, so thankfully people will always be able to remove components that restrict the user.
This is not a stance to enable privacy. This is a stance to oppose everybody who wants to place technical faculties in my OS that are able to prevent me from running whatever code I want (because at that precise moment, I do no longer own a personal universal computer). If enabling piracy is a side effect of preserving the freedom of an OS, then it's a small price to pay to preserve freedom. Thankfully again, it will always be possible to remove components from GPL software, even for "compiling wizards".
TinkoB said:
@zelendel:
I certainly have supported and I am prepared to support more app developers who provide me free software (with free as in freedom not free beer), and I'm not interested in buying closed source apps from the playstore, so I'm not really affected by this issue, but seriously? Preventing users from running the software they want on their phone? These opinions are grossing me out. Thankfully (and this might have been one of the most important advances in whole history) the creators of the software that most of our Android world is based on, have shown more wisdom and created the GPL, that forces everyone who wants to be part of this world to open source and to free their own variations of it, so thankfully people will always be able to remove components that restrict the user.
This is not a stance to enable privacy. This is a stance to oppose everybody who wants to place technical faculties in my OS that are able to prevent me from running whatever code I want (because at that precise moment, I do no longer own a personal universal computer). If enabling piracy is a side effect of preserving the freedom of an OS, then it's a small price to pay to preserve freedom. Thankfully again, it will always be possible to remove components from GPL software, even for "compiling wizards".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See you are missing one thing. The fact that android is not licensed under the GPL. Only the Android kernel is under the GPL. The rest is apache, which means they can close source any part of the os they want. This is why things like Sense, Touch wiz, Zen, miui and all the others are closed sourced.
Guys whenever you create something with so much hardwork then you expect something in return of it. But if someone stealing those things then obviously you will oppose rather than allow it.
Open source has its own benefit and disadvantages. We have to decide in what way we have to use these things. Developers are protecting their hardwork. And its their right. We can't tell them what to do and what not to do.
zelendel said:
See you are missing one thing. The fact that android is not licensed under the GPL. Only the Android kernel is under the GPL. The rest is apache, which means they can close source any part of the os they want. This is why things like Sense, Touch wiz, Zen, miui and all the others are closed sourced.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah with "most" i was referring to the Linux Kernel, which I consider the most important part, as an environment to run APKs could theoretically be substituted. But even the Apache Licence for the Android project is OK for the purpose of retaining the user freedom, although the GPL would obviously be preferable. The most problematic part as far as I can see is the proprietary framework, but at least there are people willing to tackle that issue, like the μg Project..
@vishal24387:
It's well known, that someone who is giving larger contributions to an important free software project will get hired pretty fast. Please tell me of any disadvantage of Open Source (or more importantly of free/libre software, OpenSource without free licences is problematic of course).
Developers are free to think of ways to protect their software. That must not include having OS developers place restrictions on users who aren't even interested in their software.
A developer who believes that's the right way to protect his software can include those restrictions in his own binaries and use some of the Google API features to identify his paying users. In that case the issue of restricting the users freedom only affects those users who run that kind of non-free software.
TinkoB said:
Yeah with "most" i was referring to the Linux Kernel, which I consider the most important part, as an environment to run APKs could theoretically be substituted. But even the Apache Licence for the Android project is OK for the purpose of retaining the user freedom, although the GPL would obviously be preferable. The most problematic part as far as I can see is the proprietary framework, but at least there are people willing to tackle that issue, like the μg Project..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure how you see that. The license states that they can do anything they want to the source and completely close it off like the privacy guard. They are making it closed sourced and there are many devs working on it to make it even stronger.
If you agree wit it or not really doesnt matter a whole lot. XDA is against warez and will support anything and everything to prevent the use of it. Like the module that disables the privacy guard which is now banned on XDA.
Not sure how you see that. The license states that they can do anything they want to the source and completely close it off like the privacy guard. They are making it closed sourced and there are many devs working on it to make it even stronger.
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The only Privacy Guard I'm aware of is a free software encryption tool, what component are you referring to specifically?
As long as the Free Software part of Android stays usable, closed source components are not an issue and can be removed. I don't care how many devs are making a closed source component stronger, as long as I can remove it from my system.
As soon as that's no longer an option, there'll definitely be forks to continue to be able to have projects like replicant.
If you agree wit it or not really doesnt matter a whole lot. XDA is against warez and will support anything and everything to prevent the use of it. Like the module that disables the privacy guard which is now banned on XDA.
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Anything and everything? If it's at the cost of the users freedom I'll regret my former donation to XDA and have to hope for it's downfall in the long run, but I'm pretty sure not everybody at XDA shares those drastic opinions.
For the most important and tedious parts, like fixes in drivers that are part of the GPL licenced kernel any work on XDA can be used by those who don't want to use certain other components even if all of XDA would endorse them (and I do not believe that's the case).
TinkoB said:
The only Privacy Guard I'm aware of is a free software encryption tool, what component are you referring to specifically?
As long as the Free Software part of Android stays usable, closed source components are not an issue and can be removed. I don't care how many devs are making a closed source component stronger, as long as I can remove it from my system.
As soon as that's no longer an option, there'll definitely be forks to continue to be able to have projects like replicant.
Anything and everything? If it's at the cost of the users freedom I'll regret my former donation to XDA and have to hope for it's downfall in the long run, but I'm pretty sure not everybody at XDA shares those drastic opinions.
For the most important and tedious parts, like fixes in drivers that are part of the GPL licenced kernel any work on XDA can be used by those who don't want to use certain other components even if all of XDA would endorse them (and I do not believe that's the case).
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Then what your missing is the new privacy guard which is coded into the base OS which prevents things like freedom, lucky patcher and every warez market known at the time with more being added every day.
Maybe not everyone. Most users in China and India (Where warez are common place) dont really agree with it but all the mods have talked about it and agree Warez is not something XDA has now or ever will support.
This is not kernel based. That is what you are missing. This is coded into the base OS. The part that is not covered by the GPL.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/3eo8sj/antipiracy_measures_on_android_custom_roms/
Also remember that we are a developer forum. Made for and by developers. So we will back any and everything that rips them off of their rights to protect their software from being pirated.