Hello
I just bought my wife an S9+ locked to T-Mobile which we will use on Simple Mobile. The current firmware is G965USQS3BRK2.
I've been looking around the forums for this device so as to get acquainted, but I seek a bit of guidance. I assume that this model has the Snapdragon processor, right?
She's currently on Oreo, and I would like to root it so that I can remove a lot of the bloatware. I saw the thread with the package names to disable using adb, so I can use that route, I guess. As a phone techie, I would prefer to root!!
Can I flash Pie somehow? Is it possible to have Pie and root?
I appreciate any initial guidance, and I'll go from there.
Yep it has the Snapdragon, for which unfortunately there is no way to root on any firmware at all. As for Pie, word is that T-Mobile has just begun rolling it out so it's probably easiest just to wait for the Pie update to hit her phone.
package disabler will allow you to disable all that bloatware. thats the best option at the moment
Dear, respecful developers pls bring method to root Realme x3, and Bring some cool custom roms too.. :victory:
In several places people say that all you need to do is to enable Dev options and then enable OEM unlock within. But I don't think it will get unlocked just like that. Afterwards, you might need to use Realme's in depth test apk to test the phone and make an official bootloader unlock request. Once the bootloader has been unlocked, you can root.
from what i read all samsung mobiles from the galaxy S6 that use snapdragon processor have the bootloader locked without the possibility to unlock
but from many posts its seems really easy to unlock the samsung A11 SM-A115M
i just need to be sure, because i am about to buy it, but in case i can't unlock it i would buy the a10s instead
thanks!
still need a confirmation
thanks
agonoize said:
from what i read all samsung mobiles from the galaxy S6 that use snapdragon processor have the bootloader locked without the possibility to unlock
but from many posts its seems really easy to unlock the samsung A11 SM-A115M
i just need to be sure, because i am about to buy it, but in case i can't unlock it i would buy the a10s instead
thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
About buy. I'm not suggest you to get this phon. It's x86, sometimes laggin' can be root with magisk but need to unlock bootloader. (You can do it pretty easy)
On my SM-A115F I'd got a root with magisk but it's not very useless. Because standart way to unlock bootloader just a bull**** and rapid dust in your eyes, you can't flash any custom rom because you not abled to unlock your SECURITY QUALCOM BOOT (QSB) option. So there's no any TWRP support untill someone jailbreak the QSB.
Also /system is RO so no very usefull options to change system files.
If you want A11 then better take A10.
A11 not really worth your money.
griha41 said:
About buy. I'm not suggest you to get this phon. It's x86, sometimes laggin' can be root with magisk but need to unlock bootloader. (You can do it pretty easy)
On my SM-A115F I'd got a root with magisk but it's not very useless. Because standart way to unlock bootloader just a bull**** and rapid dust in your eyes, you can't flash any custom rom because you not abled to unlock your SECURITY QUALCOM BOOT (QSB) option. So there's no any TWRP support untill someone jailbreak the QSB.
Also /system is RO so no very usefull options to change system files.
If you want A11 then better take A10.
A11 not really worth your money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this sound reasonable, actually the only thing in favor of the A11 is fast charge, but i can surely live without it
thanks!
-Want to buy snapdragon s21, rooting is must for titanium backup to freeze/unfreeze some apps.
-Repute of Exynos is not good (Officially Available in Pakistan).
- Which Version of Snapdragon S21 is best to unlock Bootloader, in my 2 hours of searching I feel SM-G9910 Which is Chinese or HK options is easier option?
- Will it unlock Bootloader just like Exynos from just developer options without PC?
- Is SM-G9910 the best and only option in Snapdragon and rooting?
(Information is little bit complexed here. using iPhone XS > iPhone 11 Pro from 2 years now. Want to try android now, rooting was easier back in the days when I use to have OnePlus, 2, 3, 3t, 5, 6t, could root it in sleep even.
usmxan said:
-Want to buy snapdragon s21, rooting is must for titanium backup to freeze/unfreeze some apps.
-Repute of Exynos is not good (Officially Available in Pakistan).
- Which Version of Snapdragon S21 is best to unlock Bootloader, in my 2 hours of searching I feel SM-G9910 Which is Chinese or HK options is easier option?
- Will it unlock Bootloader just like Exynos from just developer options without PC?
- Is SM-G9910 the best and only option in Snapdragon and rooting?
(Information is little bit complexed here. using iPhone XS > iPhone 11 Pro from 2 years now. Want to try android now, rooting was easier back in the days when I use to have OnePlus, 2, 3, 3t, 5, 6t, could root it in sleep even.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi mate
Check this thread but is a paid service
usmxan said:
-Want to buy snapdragon s21, rooting is must for titanium backup to freeze/unfreeze some apps.
-Repute of Exynos is not good (Officially Available in Pakistan).
- Which Version of Snapdragon S21 is best to unlock Bootloader, in my 2 hours of searching I feel SM-G9910 Which is Chinese or HK options is easier option?
- Will it unlock Bootloader just like Exynos from just developer options without PC?
- Is SM-G9910 the best and only option in Snapdragon and rooting?
(Information is little bit complexed here. using iPhone XS > iPhone 11 Pro from 2 years now. Want to try android now, rooting was easier back in the days when I use to have OnePlus, 2, 3, 3t, 5, 6t, could root it in sleep even.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
would you be able to unlovk bootloader of g9910 model snapdragon?
Ivixmax said:
would you be able to unlovk bootloader of g9910 model snapdragon?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you ever figure this out? I'm seeing mixed results when searching, can anyone confirm if the SM-S9110 Snapdragon has an unlockable bootloader, or if paid service is needed
theartialmartist said:
Did you ever figure this out? I'm seeing mixed results when searching, can anyone confirm if the SM-S9110 Snapdragon has an unlockable bootloader, or if paid service is needed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To answer my own question here, the bootloader was unlockable, and i have magisk root, but dont have the stomach/research for TWRP attempt yet
theartialmartist said:
To answer my own question here, the bootloader was unlockable, and i have magisk root, but dont have the stomach/research for TWRP attempt yet
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
installed TWRP for snapdragon no problem, since i had to factory reset anyway
theartialmartist said:
installed TWRP for snapdragon no problem, since i had to factory reset anyway
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, can I know how to unlock the SM-G9910? If you give the link, it would be a great help.
I been trying to root my Samsung Galaxy A52 5G but in order to do that i need to unlock the bootloader. So i follow the instructions and tells me to toggle the OEM option but i don't see it in my phone. Can someone please help.
Included screenshots
lolhelloeddie said:
I been trying to root my Samsung Galaxy A52 5G but in order to do that i need to unlock the bootloader. So i follow the instructions and tells me to toggle the OEM option but i don't see it in my phone. Can someone please help.
Included screenshots
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
assuming u have a usa model u cant unlock the bootloader
elliwigy said:
assuming u have a usa model u cant unlock the bootloader
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes i bought it directly from Samsung
again, assuming you have a usa model (buying from samsung doesnt answer that question unless you say you bought a usa model from samsung meaning its a U1 model) then your bl cant be unlocked without paid service and you will not have oem unlock toggle at all
I said yes, can you recommend someone? Or where I can find them?
Arobase40 said:
Maybe you can try something like this ?
How to Fix Missing OEM Unlock in Samsung Devices
In this tutorial, we have shared four methods that will help you to fix the missing OEM Unlock option in various Samsung devices and tablets.
www.droidwin.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
most of those are for international devices that are unlockable where there is a 7 day wait period and doesnt apply to usa models at all.. usa models are NOT unlockable.. that site even thinks you can create a factory/combination firmware by using stock firmware which is also bs lol
just saying...
try
try
Arobase40 said:
Have you fully red the whole thread you're linking ???
I Participated myself to this long discussion in this thread and the conclusion is that : IT DOES NOT WORK for the Galaxy A52S 5G !!!
Most people are confusing between the A52 5G (SM-A526B) and the A52S 5G (SM-528B) !!!
The first one IS most probably rootable but not the second one !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am verry sorry just try to help you i am out of this thread now
Arobase40 said:
At present time we are all on the same boat for the A52S 5G USA or International models as this phone is not really unlockable even when the system pretends it is unlocked !
My OEM toggle is ON and when I turn my phone on I got a message telling me exactly this :
"This Phone's bootloader is unlocked and the software integrity can't be verified. Any data on this phone may be vulnerable to attackers. Don't store any important or sensitive information on this phone.".
But whenever I try to flash a patched AP file with Magisk my phone goes into a bootloop !!!
I tried different methods including creating a "custom ROM" with modified AP and BL files and the result is just the same : bootloop !
For what I know there is something related with the Samsung Vault Keeper mechanism and I'm trying to find out a workaround for this, with no result ATM...
So the purpose of my previous link was to fix the missing OEM toggle button, nothing else... But I guess this option may also be not available anymore with this phone... At least you can try...
On my side, whether I unlock or re-lock the bootloader (in Download mode) the OEM toggle button is always on... ^^
So I guess the unique solution should be to create a petition address to Samsung to put the pressure on this dam*** company ! ^^
I used to love Samsung products but this company's policy is driving me nuts and it makes me more angry as time goes by...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not sure what that has anything to do with the OP or this thread. Your bootloader is clearly unlocked. Because you dont know how to root it doesnt mean your bootloader is locked as well as doesnt help the OP at all since his model is a usa model and cant unlock the BL like you can.
You will likely confuse people by trying to hijack the thread to solve your own issues that are unrelated to this thread. Just saying.
Arobase40 said:
Have you fully red the whole thread you're linking ???
I Participated myself to this long discussion in this thread and the conclusion is that : IT DOES NOT WORK for the Galaxy A52S 5G !!!
Most people are confusing between the A52 5G (SM-A526B) and the A52S 5G (SM-528B) !!!
The first one IS most probably rootable but not the second one !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
both of those are unlockable and rootable but the op in this thread has a A526U or A526U1 so you both are in the wrong thread lol none of that will work on his device and sibce hes not unlocked and cant unlock in the first place he cant flash any custom firmware at all.
What is the KG or RMM state after you unlocked it? So to be clear, you unlocked the phone, booted into download mode, flashed the pached boot file, rebooted phone, it does not work?
So I'm coming to a conclusion that this phone is unlockable. Right? Right! Oh well thanks everyone for your help and support. Much appreciated.
Arobase40 said:
You're right on one point is that my post has nothing to do with OP but it was just a response to your own post... ^^
I'm here on XDA over 10 years and I always rooted my devices and I also saw different US Samsung devices being unlocked after a certain time...
So it's not a matter of hijacking the thread to solve my own issues but just a conversation to explain the situation of both A52 5G and A52S 5G whether from USA or International model...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
a response to my own post saying the links provided likely only applied to international variants and NOT to the usa models and therefore are irrelevant doesnt mean its ok to confuse ppl and hijack a thread to try and solve your own problem lol..
It is hijacking because the international models and the usa models are very different when it comes to unlocking the bootloader.. USA models cannot unlock the BL whereas Intl' models can.. you can unlock your bl but dont know how to root it which is completely dif. than the ops issue who cant even unlock the BL.. the "situations" you are trying to explain are completely different.
Arobase40 said:
Well I'm not really wrong as I simply tried to solve the OP missing OEM Toggle !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are wrong bcuz u are going based off all the intl models being same as usa models which they are not so any solutions you have based on intl models will not work as they dont apply to usa models.
Arobase40 said:
I don't understand why you are globally locked down with the US models and what you are saying is false and you know it as you are also the same moderator in the Galaxy Note 9 thread !
It took more time to unlock and to root the US Note 9 than the International one but at least it is now possible to unlock the US bootloader and to root the US Galaxy Note 9, including installing TWRP (since 2018) and some custom roms. You also proposed a way to root the US Note 9 without the need to unlock the bootloader and to touch the Knox flag. Partially useful but the problem is that you cannot do TWRP backup and restore when something is wrong... This was the same problem with my Galaxy Note 3 and with every firmware updates I had to redo the whole process from start to root it as there was no TWRP available at that time...
There may be also some other US Samsung devices in the same position such as Galaxy S10e (SM-G970U) but I don't own them and I don't have time to check all their situations...
I saw also TWRP for the US S21 Ultra and the US Galaxy Tab S7 Plus... based on your signature...
BTW, the OP issue is that he can't even try to unlock the bootloader simply because he can't see and can't access the OEM Toogle !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- USA Models have almost always been locked down. A few variants were unlockable for a bit like tmo or sprint but for the most part for years and years us models havent been unlockable without exploits and even then a majority of said exploits were just for root (bootloader was still locked and not able to use TWRP.)
- Not sure what you mean about Note 9 because I dont moderate in Samsung forums, I mostly am mod for Xiaomi. If you mean my root exploit for N9, that is using exploits and only for root, not for unlocking the BL.
- There was no way to unlock the bootloader of the US Note 9 in 2018. I posted the worlds first and only Note 9 root exploit which BL was still locked at that time and no option to unlock and use TWRP so I am not sure what you are referring to there.
- As I stated earlier I believe, devices released in 2019 to current (S9 to S21 and even some flip/fold devices) up to a certain update (each device is dif. but newer security isnt possible) via paid service which I also provide (and one other person) that relies on a device specific "token" that unlocks the bootloader. Even then, the oem toggle is never visible even after unlocking via paif service if it can even be unlocked (meaning its not updated to the point it cant unlock anymore.)
- My S21U did have an unlocked BL until I was robbed at gunppint and thethief broke my screen and upon getting it repaired theyhad to update it to latest firmware therefore losing my unlock. And the Tab S7+ that I have isnt a us carrier model (which are not unlockable without paid service) and is a SM-T970 (wifi only model) which is BL unlockable out of the box unlike us carrier models.
- Lastly, that is exactly what I am saying. He has a USA model that is not unlockable without paid service (if hes not updated to a firmware it no longer would work on.) The oem toggle will never appear. Theres no 7 day trick or anything he can do to get it unlocked. He'd have to find some sort of exploit that no one in the world has found yet or that they havent released (if someone did find some exploits.)
This is coming from someone who knows many devs around the world and as of last few years seems to be the only one still actively searching for exploits (and even found some root exploits and other things) and that only buys US models that are locked down tight and currently working with s21u a50 a32 5g s20u with no luck even at a root exploit. I was simply just trying to put it out there so ppl dont waste their time and stated the links and such ppl posted are irrelevant in this case as they dont apply to us models but hey, you can think I am wrong if you like and I hope op finds a miracle somehow to unlock his BL as itd help me unlock my other devices and others in the same boat but I'll take that with a grain of salt lol.
Hopefully this cleats things up for you.
Arobase40 said:
Nope you are still wrong because the International models don't have this issue about hidden OEM Toggle !!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
huh? I literally said the intl models are not the same as the usa models so any solutions for intl models will not work in this case which I cant tell if you agree or not as u indicate/acknowledge that they are not the same..
Arobase40 said:
Why are you talking as my "own problem" and why are you mocking me as if I was the sole person who is concerned with this issue ???
"My problem" is everyone's problem whether we own a US or an International model !!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because this isnt your thread and the ops issue is completely different than your issue and US or intl model DOES matter because you are unlocked.. US model cant even get that far.. your issue is with not knowing how to root after your bl is unlocked.. ops issue ishe has a US model and cant unlock the bootloader at all.. talking about your issue confuses people with US models into thinking they can unlock their bl but they cant so two different issues...
Arobase40 said:
First of all I have to say English is not my native language so I can say things that can be misunderstood, but since now I don't think this is the case...
I never said or meant that US and International Samsung phone are the same or could be treated the same way nor did I said that ALL US phones could be unlocked, but as you said yourself : "A few variants were unlockable for a bit like tmo or sprint but for the most part for years and years us models havent been unlockable without exploits and even then a majority of said exploits were just for root (bootloader was still locked and not able to use TWRP.)"... ^^
Then it's hard to know when you participate into a discussion as moderator or not as you always use the same pseudo with the same status "elliwigy : Forum moderator /Recognized Dev / Dev Relations"... ^^
But when we go in the Snapdragon dev section for the Galaxy Note 9 your name appears seven times in seven threads... Excluding the open thread where you explained how to root the Note 9 with an exploit.
Samsung Galaxy Note 9 (Snapdragon) ROMs, Kernels,
Samsung Galaxy Note 9 (Snapdragon) ROMs, Kernels, Recoveries, & Other Development
forum.xda-developers.com
About unlocking the bootloader of the US Note 9 in 2018 I was indeed confusing with the SD 9600 which is a Snapdragon but not for the US model... ^^
But if you go to this following thread OP, did say the US Note 9 could be unlocked with possibility to install TWRP and it was by May 6, 2020 even if the title mentioned N9600 !!!
[ROM] [Q] [N9600] Note 9 All Carriers [5FTK1] V8
This ROM is based on Samsung Note 9 TGY firmware and modded to allow full US carrier functions (volte, wifi-calling, etc.), but can be installed on any N9600 that meets the requirements below. Flash at your own risk! I am not responsible for any...
forum.xda-developers.com
Requirements:
Must be on Android 10 firmware. I recommend that you be on 5FTK1 bootloader
Must have klabit's official TWRP 3.4.0-0 installed
Instructions:
Make a full TWRP backup!!
Download ROM to phone from link below
Download ODM to phone from link below ONLY if you're on a USA carrier
Reboot to TWRP, select wipe and swipe to factory reset
Install ODM if you're on a USA carrier
Install ROM
Reboot
After setup, open rom control, open each tab in rom control and reboot SystemUI
*For SafetyNet to pass, you need to enable Magisk hide in Magisk manager settings
Downloads:
ROM Krog_N9600_NoteRom_5FTK1_V8.zip or Gdrive link
ODM Krog_N960U_USA_ODM_Q (For U.S. carriers only!!)
Magisk seems to work fine...
Then there is another and newer thread from afaneh92 (Nov 30, 2021) describing how to install TWRP on US Note 9 (using a paid service to unlock the bootloader is another subject and it doesn't matter)
[RECOVERY][UNOFFICIAL] TWRP for Galaxy Note 9 (Snapdragon)
Team Win Recovery Project 3.x, or twrp3 for short, is a custom recovery built with ease of use and customization in mind. Its a fully touch driven user interface no more volume rocker or power buttons to mash. The GUI is also fully XML driven and...
forum.xda-developers.com
Finally, you admitted you owned a "My S21U did have an unlocked BL"... So what should we think about your own words ???
In regard with my own International A528B phone I did the unlocked process and tried many times to install a custom AP file with Magisk but it didn't work as my phone enter into a bootloop process after flashing it via PC Odin. At last resort I relocked my phone and I was surprised to receive an OTA update which should be impossible if my phone was really unlocked !!! ^^
How can you explain this ??? lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- My "pseudo" as you call it is a tag/status. I was a "recognized developer" before I became a forum moderator and before jpining the dev commitee. It is tags that every forum moderator receives so ppl can see who the mods are. I am still a developer. The way it is broken down is each device has its own set of moderators which you can usually find a list in each section usually its stickied forwhichever moderators can moderate that section i.e. I can moderate xiaomi forums but since I am not a mod for Samsung I cant moderate in Samsung forums. Rule of thumb though, if you see I have created a thread in say Samsung forum then that is me posting something I have developed or am developing i.e. N9 root method and obviously posting as a developer. You would know if I was posting as a moderator as it'd be saying something in regards to moderation i.e. cleaning a thread for bad language or off topic banter of which I would have deleted/removed comments or some sort of action or if responding to a reported post etc. etc. So it would be clear if I was posting as a moderator as I would make it clear.
- The snapdragon dev section in N9 forum is for all snapdragon models of the note 9. The N9600 is the Korean variant if I am not mistaken and is unlockable by default. The OP in this thread has a USA variant, I did not say all "snapdragon" models were the same. ai simply stated "US/Carrier Models" were not unlockable without a paid service. Since N9600 is not a US/Carrier model it is unlockable and is in that section because it has a Snapdragon chip in it therefore falls in the category of an international model that is unlockable by default and therefore unrelated to the discussion here. The korean variants typically end with a 0. Models that are not unlockable are typically ending with U, U1, or W i.e. N960U, N960U1 or N960W. Anything else is likely not a US/Can model and are typically unlockable by default.
- Afaneh is the other person that can unlock bl's using a paid service which I already stated. USA models can use twrp once they get paid service (given they arent updated to a firmware not able to be unlocked) to unlock the bootloader first. This is the ONLY way to unlock the bootloader. He also makes twrp builds for devices and clearly (as you also included in your link) he is clear that you need to use a paid service. As for that other twrp post I have no idea. Because someone posts in a Snapdragon section and isn't specific on which variants it is for is not against any specific rules. I can bet however without even looking at it you can likely read the comments and see people with US models saying it didnt work or asking how to unlock the BL because it wasnt possible. Typically in those threads the dev will indicate you need to unlock the bootloader first and US variants cannot unlock the BL therefore that TWRP wouldnt apply to them at all.
- As far as your issue, the fact that you could successfully flash custom firmware using ODIN tells me you were unlocked. On locked devices (i.e. US variants) ODIN would fail and device will say an error so they wouldnt even be able to get that far. Samsung always likes to be different in how android and root and stuff work. Sometimes magisk needs to be modified or tweaked to work and sometimes the install instructions vary by device. I cant help you there because I sold my N9 before was able to unlock the bootloader but can guarantee you are able to root your device since bl is unlocked you just have to find the right instructions and follow them to the T. I do not know the steps for your intl model so I cannot say why its bootlooping but I assume you are missing a step somewhere.
As for relocking and getting an OTA, it is possible even if you were still unlocked. OTA will not work however if anything is modified i.e. if you are rooted the ota will fail. Simply having an unlocked BL you can still get an OTA if you havent modified anything i.e. no twrp and no root and no modified rom etc.
Arobase40 said:
First of all, when I posted a thread with a link on how to unhide the OEM toggle I said "Maybe you can try something like this ?" and nothing in the link mentions it was an International model !
And at present time nobody can certify my A528B phone is really unlocked as I was able to relocked it and I also received an OTA update which would be impossible if my phone was really unlocked !!!
That's why I said we are on the same boat... at present time... ^^
In regard with US bootloaders I gave demonstration it was possible to unlock some of them with different Samsung phones and I never said it was possible with all of them but sooner or later it is possible to unlock some of them whatever the process with or without paid services...
Ok, I'm now done with this discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I said it was irrelevant because it will not work as usa models cannot unlock the BL. A lot of those sites will not list specific models and assume every model is the same andsometimes even use old pictures/instructions for super old devices and just create new pages. I bet most samsung sites like that all have same instructions word for word and only difference is the name of the device lol. I dont know why they do this but they obviously dont know what they are talking about,dont care or the page creation is somewhat automated but rule of thumb is us models cant unlock so you can assume those pages do not apply to us models.
Again, you can get an ota if unlocked and on complete stock firmware hence doesnt mean anything really. To add, just the fact alone you can toggle oem unlock and unlock your bootloader and were able to successfully flash a modified firmware in odin says you were unlocked as it would have failed in odin and not flashed anything. The fact that you bootlooped aftereards doesnt mean you werent unlocked, just means theres some steps you are missing or the files you used were no good. This also means you are NOT having the same issues. I dont know why its hard for you to understand that op cannot unlock his bl at all, doesnt even see the oem toggle (and never will) is the same as you who can see the oem toggle and can unlock bl and can flash modified firmware but bootloops afterwards as being the same issues.. OP can only hope his device isnt updated and can pay for paid service to unlock whereas you need to find proper instructions on rooting your device and to avoid a bootloop.. two completely separate issues.. You might have initially thought they were the same issue but that is why i clarified multiple times they are not the same issue at all and you even have a completely dif. variant than op does.. If you still think they are the same issue then i dont know what to tell you at that point and hopefully op realizes that he can only unlock with paid service and isnt confused as you are.
And yes, some us models were unlockable years ago.. In fact, I believe the S4 verizon models could unlock using an exploit on a certain firmware and verizon note 4 could unlock using an exploit turning it into a dev device but outside of that it has not been possible so if you are saying some could be unlocked going based off devices that came out years and years ago then sure. Recent years/devices though it has not been possible.
The paid service technically uses an exploit that creates a "token" that sets device to allow custom firmware to be flashed (essentially acts like an unlocked bootloader) but isnt unlocking the bootloader in a traditional sense at all so one could argue it isnt exactly the same (although result is the same.)