Related
Got my gTab yesterday. [VERY EXCITED!]
Plugged in wall outlet, waited 4 hours to charge.
Connected to WiFi.
Updated TapnTap, as instructed.
My Vist Ultimate computer didn't see the gTab when I plugged it in, at least not so I could get to the root directory.
So I went to an old XP and tried that. It worked.
Wanted to Root it, so I installed (sorry if that's not the correct word) ClockworkMod v08.
So far so good.
Then rooted TnT Lite v 4.2
Still good.
Then rooted TnT Lite suppl 4.25
STILL okay.
Then went to gMail. Added my gMail account. (An account I use for business.) It took a LONG time to do whatever it was doing. So I went to do something else, thinking it would continue doing it's thing in the background. I was wrong. It messed up, and I kept getting error messages.
Next thing I know, I'm somehow in that infinite boot loop.
It was about 2 am, and I was tired, and... panicked!
Next thing you know I'm freaking out and went hog-wild (while following directions to the letter), to get my brand new toy to work.
I did nvflash windows, still infinite boot loop. I tried putting the vanilla recovery 3588 on there. Still infinite boot loop.
Kept at things, trying everything I read, and STILL... infinite boot loop.
Then I figured it was time to try to get my Vista computer working so I wouldn't have to keep transferring stuff from the Vista to the XP to the miscroSD card to the gTab, and followed directions about APX mode.
I was delirious, exhausted and scared, and kind of went postal (in a frenzied OCD sort-of way), trying everything and anything to get rid of the infinite boot loop.
Now it won't even power up. (AT ALL!) I think I gave it a heart attack, or possibly a stroke. And that's with not even owning it for 24 hours!
I've tried the long 45 second power hold, then the short one. [Did that about 37 times.] I've tried power and Vol+. Nope. Then did a few power and Vol-, just to really freak the poor sick, dead thing out. [Like kicking the proverbial dead horse, I guess. Trying to see if there was any life left in it.] I even read to turn off the lights to see if there was a faint glow. But nope. No glow.
I will now follow the directions from another post, and will let it just sit for 24 hours (if I can survive the wait) to let the battery discharge and then see if it will boot. [After this nightmare, there is no WAY I will take off the back and hit the reset button--thereby definitely voiding my warranty.] But I hope I'm not like the woman from the forum thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=968177
If I am, and can't get this thing to power up, do you think WOOT will let me return it???? I'm so upset that I broke my new toy so quickly. If anyone has any suggestions about getting this thing to boot up, I'd appreciate it. [at this point, I'd be happy to have it boot up in the infinite boot loop!]
Oh, and one last question, how does having it turned off (because I can't turn it on) and sitting there drain the battery to the point that it needs to start fresh after a mere 24 hours with no activity? Is that typical for tablets?
THANK YOU to anyone who can offer advice on what to try next or how to remedy this problem. Please keep in mind that I am good with PCs and laptops/netbooks, but am VERY new to this whole android and tablet things, so if you send instructions, please give implicit directions (as though you are instructing a 3-year-old), without feeling as if you are insulting me. [Please believe it's what I need, and will appreciate. As will the other wooters who just turned their gTabs into brinks] And know that you will be helping Roebeet by answering my questions, because the poor guy must be exhausted from all of us lay-peoples' foibles and mess-ups. [The man seems to be a God at this site!]
Did you do what is mentioned right after step 10 in this thread?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=865245
"If your tablet bootloops…Also may be required to get market running correctly on some ROMs...
Press and hold the power button to shut the device down. Boot back into Clockwork. Select the advanced option at the bottom, then go to “partition SD card”, for the first option select 2048, and for the second option select 0. Then, redo steps 7-10. This erases all data on your tablet, including backups."
But first... switch to decaf and get some rest... ;-)
Panic doesn't help.
It might actually be powering up but staying in APX mode. I've seen one do that. If that's the case you can still nvflash it back to normal. Let it charge for 15-20 minutes and leave it on the charger. Try to start it up and see if your pc can see it.
You maybe got the bootloop because your tab had sleep death while syncing. Was the error you got by chance something like process.acore? If so that is a classic error that happens after syncing contacts, sometimes there are empty contacts with no data that make the tab go nuts. Simply deleting the bad contacts solves the problem.
A simple wipe data/cash/davlic would have been the first place to start. Breathing helps when stuff goes wonky.
If you can get it to recovery a repartition is totally necessary. Deffinetly... and maybe some whiskey ....
Good luck.
good luck with woot return, dont even think they do it.
I wouldn't worry about the warranty. You already voided it when you rooted the device.
I'm so sorry, guys, I didn't check off the subscribe notification, so I didn't know that anyone had written.
cdavisccs28, I didn't do that while the tablet was boot looping, but somehow it went from bootlooping to complete death.
K J Rad, it wasn't charging, and wouldn't boot. [And you can probably guess, I tried numerous times.]
Mantara, the death in the middle of syncing certainly didn't help it, and, as you suggested, might have been the last nail in the coffin. The whiskey suggestion was funny! Actually I, personally don't drink, but as you might have deduced, I'm a carrier. [AKA: I've been told that I drive people to drink.]
spike378 & filterking: Yup, I think you are both correct. How I managed to spike from "excited as a schoolgirl" to "completely tanking" in less than 24 hours amazes even ME! [And I know me, and am used to me! I think that was a personal record!] [If I don't laugh about it, I'll cry!]
THANK YOU ALL for replying! Your time and concern meant a lot to me, but I think this baby is totally bricked! Elvis has DEFINITELY left the building! If I do get another one (I'll have to start saving again), I might be too afraid to play with it. I really am good with PCs and notebooks, so I might just keep staying with what I know. YOU GUYS ROCK, for trying to help me, and I really appreciate it!
Same problem. I booted the device up, and connected it to WiFi. Then it gave a popup where it asked to update to the newest version. I said okay, and let it do its thing. Then it restarted into a bootloop. So, I turned the device off, and tried to turn it back on, except -- nothing. With the USB plugged in, it's not recognized by the computer at any time after I press the power button. I've been trying to get it to boot for an hour now and it's still just sitting there with a black screen. Not even a backlight is showing. Anyone know of any solution? Or is it time to ask for an RMA from Woot!?
h.nocturna, WOW, you didn't even get to the part where you started doing everything and anything (in a frenzy) to get it to work properly! That might be a good thing, h.nocturna, because you haven't voided your warranty! You might need to send it to Viewsonic to be fixed (since it messed up while you were doing their update), but at least you can do THAT! I mailed my brand new brick to my son up in college and gave him this site, and told him to have a blast, and do whatever he wanted with it. [He's known me his whole life, and said even HE "can't fathom my destroying something so completely in less than 10 hours."] I wish you luck!
Oh, one more question that will help the masses, I'm sure. So how do you get your computer to recognize the device as a hard drive, when it is plugged in to a Windows PC (without voiding the warrenty, of course)? [Vista Ultimate does not recognize it, and neither did Windows 7.] Please give step-by-step instructions for the lay-person. [By answering this question, at least we will solve THAT problem for folks!]
badtypist,
I wrote you a fix last night and when I went to save it the Forums had been shut down and do it didn't save to post --
and I had been on the road and was exhausted and just couldn't stay up long enough to redo it if and when they came back up. Sorry.
You simply needed to find one solution and then let us get down the procedure to follow to fix it.
Several people in the past have gotten to the point where you were. I read two fixes.
One was some people were able to get the tab to start again by playing with the
power switch -- hold it for long, long times and then press a short startup, etc. Somehow they got that to reset and start.
Somewhere else in the forums -- and I have never done this with either of my tablets --
there are a few threads where someone in this kind of situation opened up
the tablet card and simply unplugged the battery for 10- or more seconds. There also
is a reset button inside the case as shown in an old thread where someone opened a
G-Tab up and took pictures.
If any of those three choices get to where you can either use power / volume - to get
into NVFlash more ---- or to where we can load CWM -- then you are in fair shape.
LOTS AND LOTS OF BOOT LOOPS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH PARTITIONING. Simply
getting into CWM and re-partitioning to 2048 and 0 and then using CWM to "Fix
Permissions" will get it working. CWM also will let you wipe the cache and wipe the
factory data, which sometimes will allow and NVFlash to come on up and work right.
You see, we were not dead by any stretch.
You might pass this on to the recipient of the tablet.
Also, so many people are trying to do so much that is over their heads -- and so many
people are borking their tablets -- that this site and the folks that can help -- just can't communicate. Sad day.
I wish you luck. Hope this helps.
Rev
EDIT: Well, I guess we missed the boat completely. Evidently she mailed of the G-Tab and checked
out for good!!!
Hi Rev! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I TRIED to get back to you sooner, but I think this site was down, because it kept timing out and wouldn't let me get to the site OR the conversation thread! I tried a few times, then tried later, and now just tried again!
I think you guys are getting BLASTED with desperate lay-people from the over 10,000 tablets sold on Woot who have "borked" their tablets. (That's a funny word, Rev! I hope I'm using it properly! And please note, although the WORD is funny, the actual situation is NOT funny!)
Yes, I mailed the offending frustration-linked object to my son, and can't "take it back," but perhaps I will beg for and borrow enough money to try again, sometime soon! If I do, I will come back here again sine I feel I have bonded with the wonderful, sharing folks on this site. (I'm a she, by the way, not a "he.") I admire (okay, worship) the folks who help us lay-people out so we don't sit alone crying and trying to power/Vol+ in solitude!
I've read your other posts previously, Rev, and you are so wonderful to help us n00bs! So please remember "badtypist" (hopefully with good thoughts) and when you hear my name again, let's hope it's to say... THIS TIME I ROOTED IT CORRECTLY!!!!
Thanks again, for your time, Rev AND the rest of you, which wasn't wasted, because I sent my son this link and he will (in his spare time) read through it to fix HIS new tablet. [I think he kind of liked that his mom messed up! He got a VERY expensive new toy, if he can fix it.]
Perhaps I'll talk with you soon...
badtypist (and bad ROOTER. Or is it ROOTERIST? Or maybe ROOTIST? Whatever the proper term, I think we can all agree that I AM bad at it!)
Gtab Update Problems
So, I would agree with some of the posts above. I would also point out that you have two options (or some combination of the two):
1. Try to return the tablet, or put in a warranty claim (the warranty specifically does not cover modification\rooting)
2. Try to fix it yourself
I tend to choose #2 f I think the chances are better than 50/50 in my favor. Also, if the hardware is okay, you can have it fixed in 20 minutes.
The experience that the OP went through is EXACTLY why I discourage newer g-tablet owners from rushing in and flashing alternate firmware to their tablet. I am often chided for this recommendation, but I believe that it is unwise to modify a brand new tablet.
If you still want to mod it, you should have a backup plan. I save my update file to an external USB drive. You should then be able to re-install the stock update by placing it on a microSD card. You need to rename it to update.zip, and add a file that tells it to look at the microSD card for an update. I am a but fuzzy on the specifics, but that file is named "command", and I found it somewhere here in the forums.
As I plan on modding my newer woot tablet (or maybe my older Sears one). I will first set this up, and will work out the details.
Hi buzzzard, thanks for the great info! VERY helpful. I did see that video while researching the gTab, but didn't bookmark it, so I appreciate your adding it here! My son will see all your posts and will use all of your suggestions to try to raise my brand new gTab from the dead! [It wasn't even in zombie mode when I shipped it to my son, so we'll see what happens! I'll keep ya'll informed.]
wasserkapf, you are probably right about not jumping in with both feet for us n00bs. And I most certainly don't mean to be disrespectful in ANY way, but I have a (serious) question... if I'd kept the tap-n-tap and played with it for a while, how would that have changed things for me if I eventually decided to root it to a faster, better OS? [I'm not meaning this sarcastically, I really want to know what I'd have to learn in order to change the results I had, in case I ever do this whole process again, or in case others out there are (hopefully) learning by my mistakes.] What would you suggest lay-people should be learning about the gTab BEFORE attempting to root it? [The answer to this question wil help a LOT of folks!]
buzzzard,
I have always understood -- and I don't want to know bad enough to spend the time
researching it -- that the warranty is void when you load non-standard software.
And even if it were not, I have real questions about messing up a computer and then
taking it back to the seller as if it were faulty. Seems to me there is a dishonesty
component in that equation.
I think modders SHOULD accept the risk that they can trash their tablets -- and that
if they do then the loss is theirs.
Rev
P. S. -- I've tried to say this much without starting a flame war -- if you do I won't
answer you and will ask the moderator to close and hide the thread.
badtypist said:
wasserkapf, you are probably right about not jumping in with both feet for us n00bs. And I most certainly don't mean to be disrespectful in ANY way, but I have a (serious) question... if I'd kept the tap-n-tap and played with it for a while, how would that have changed things for me if I eventually decided to root it to a faster, better OS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For one, this will give you time to read up and learn more. I can tell that you are confused by all of this. You don't "root it to a faster OS". Rooting is a method to gain root privileges on the tablet. To you windows users, root is the equivalent of Administrator. There also is only one OS available for this tablet, and that is Android. Some have made modified/customized versions of Android, but it is still Android.
[I'm not meaning this sarcastically, I really want to know what I'd have to learn in order to change the results I had, in case I ever do this whole process again, or in case others out there are (hopefully) learning by my mistakes.] What would you suggest lay-people should be learning about the gTab BEFORE attempting to root it? [The answer to this question wil help a LOT of folks!]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There seems to be the misperception that you have to install a custom firmware to get root privileges or Android Market access. This can be done on the stock firmware, and then makes the tablet much more useful.
butchconner, I know you weren't talking to me, but I am taking full responsibility, and am hoping my son can resurrect my gTab, and I DO hope there will be no flaming, as well. ["There's no need for flaming. It's unsportsmanlike, kind-of rude and unproductive," said the mom to all reading this thread. So please don't flame so this won't get deleted for other poor people who "bork" their gTabs.]
badtypist,
wasserkapf was around when I got my first G-Tablet -- when we were all getting started last November.
You have no idea how bad the software was back then and the things we had to do to make things work.
It wasn't a question of 10 different ROMS and whether it was fast or not -- it was a question of making it work.
But I agree with wasserkapf (and I don't mean this comment particularly at you ) that
people are trying to do too much to fast. In addition to being a minister, I also was
an exec in the IT field for 30 years. I learned to read the docs, to move slow, to make sure each step was
successfully completed before moving on, to test things that
I'm not sure of -- and a whole host of other things that IT people use to operate their
company's systems without crashing it and losing data.
I helped a guy along the way who said he was inexperienced and that his tablet was in
the same kind of situation yours ways. He had gotten his G-Tab, charged it up, and had loaded EVERYTHING he could find on it.
Three or four different ROMS including an
experimental ROM he had been warned was risky. Yet he was having to ask what
recovery was and where to look for files and other basic questions.
I think everybody should get their tablet, upgrade to the latest version of stock, install z4root and
Titanium Backup and learn to use them, then install the latest version of Angry Birds and whatever useful software they need -- and then enjoy
that for a while while they learn the ins and outs of modding.
I help people because of the kind of person I am and because I am retired and have
some time to devote. But I also will be honest and tell you this -- I don't suffer
obnoxious, foolish people well -- and there are folks I just don't help because someone gave them good advice
and they didn't listen........I help folks who need and deserve to be helped.
The alternate ROMs are nice. And it's neat to add market and other useful stuff to
your tablet. But none of those kinds of things are so important that they are worth
what some folks do.
Nuff said. I don't respond to flames. And when you have been helping people as long
as I have, then you can have your opinion.
Peace,
Rev
I am trying to put my Optimus S into emergency mode by following these instructions here: http://cheapcellunlockedphones.com/how-to-fix-a-bricked-lg-optimus-s/
I can not get it into e-mode for nothing. All I get is a black screen. Is there something I am missing?
Nevermind, I got it.
hm. well heres a try
it appears i cannot post to where this is most related...bricked p500h's optimus ones. phone number 3. koodo shall hate me but i will lie again and just say no turn on if noone has a solution. everytime its the update-openoptimus as the culprit, the flash after as per instructions with baseband(force close always occurs and thats the next step) fails and phone goes dead. no life. bricked. whats rather saddening is all the hundreds of posts i read here about people calling their phones bricked when they are in fastboot or emergency mode. hell life would be nice...little note to people. fastboot or emergency mode is NOT a bricked phone. phone going dead during a kdz flash and fail with NO SIGN OF LIFE afterwards is a bricked phone. im going to cry if i see someone else say. i haz yellow screen. ARRGH I BRICKED MY PHONE!!~! HAAALP OH YE WIZARDS OF XDA!!!
now..is there some trick to give this guy power aside from a charged battery and plug via ac or usb...some hidden little nub in this phone to hella reset the freakin thing? im not confident koodo gonna send another. although i will say i dont want a lg ill pay for an upgrade above n beyond. i just would prefer to make this work and say to hell with ciaoux (think thats how the young fella spells it) pretty rom...it worked the first time and thats why i want it its nice i liked it then phone bricked somehow. gone through two more tryin to get there. there has to be a way to give these phones some power tho...has to be! pls xda gurus: this is my first post and ive waited awhile for it. how to save p500h no boot no post.
cheers,.
proud champion of actual phone bricking.
sinner99 said:
now..is there some trick to give this guy power aside from a charged battery and plug via ac or usb...some hidden little nub in this phone to hella reset the freakin thing? im not confident koodo gonna send another. although i will say i dont want a lg ill pay for an upgrade above n beyond.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. Just JTAG. Forget it, it costs more than a PCB change or even more than a brand new phone.
lol ill try my luck, 3rd replacement(if i was honest with them none of em woulda been outright replaced, but hey i was stupid enough to brick it 3 times, not gonna be so stupid to tell the truth what i did!) tomorrow am i call and say ***k lg! gimme a nexus s! 16gb internal. really ive fought gettin the one rom with 4gb sd-ext for internal memory, non issue if i persuade them with my charm. this is what i shall do. next up...lookup what jtagging is. ive meant to. guess now i will. thinkin without a thought its jtag=tagged for garbage. yanno when they take them in and theres no power. they have no real proof, not the provider i doubt. only on amce lg gets it they know whats was done..if that. fill me in if im wrong. im quite good at gettin **** for free from telus/shaw/any of them like outfits.
JTAG is a device that will flash the dead phone with a working firmware. You need to dismantle the phone and connect the JTAG to a connector on PCB. Yeah, Google it, but as said, expensive and totally not worth it unless you are doing the stuff for living.
totally not worth it..as in how much can these devices be. and how much or where would they maybe be found. i get **** cheaper then most ppl in most cases if the right places are sought out....imma server guy to be honest but lately ive had a pile of this phone stuff start piling up. ppl dont wanna pay much but somethin can be made for sure so maybe, thanks very much for the info i be keepin my ears to the ground! my buddy is tryin to figure the formulas used for imei > puk and imei > unlock. thatd be some handy info to have too. i got this one real nice arc.....nice. boneheads tried random net unlock codes like 200 times before i seen it. shoulda asked about that before i shelled out $5 for a code i had in 2 hrs. lol guess this isnt the place for this discussion tho....
koodos sendin another. easy enough. now. wtf does this rom upgrade to ciaoux's update-openoptimus keep pooching my phones for though. 3 tries.. 3 bricks, never on the actual rom upgrade...but afterwards always force close so i run fix permissions in recovery, followed by the v20g_00 baseband upgrade........this is where it fails everytime. i should note, in the past the lge virtual modem has been present but disabled as required, but not lately. its now always lge android usb modem....i dont think i disabled that guy.....maybe the problem? really leary about running any kdz or lpdm updater now for sure. to call in a 4th time in two weeks with a dead phone my provider is gonna sorta maybe start askin questions......im pretty sure. lol goddam i needa large capacity phone, i haz a 20tb server but only a 512mb capaacity droid phone. messed. ****.
honestly, i just wrote a giant essay on what happened and it all got deleted when i tried to submit it so im not very happy right now and dont feel like retyping it so ill just keep it short
i (tried) to format my sd card with the clockwork mod app (not recovery) but it failed and when i rebooted my phone was soopah doopah ultra mega bricked³, i believe is the technical term
it "boots" to a black screen when the battery is inserted and none of the buttons, capactive or physical, work and the only way to power it off is to pull the battery
my computer only picks up some qualcomm-usb-whatever drivers (been a while since i plugged it) which according to the internet has to do with some sort of qualcomm download mode
i was hoping to jtag it, because according to the internet, its the ultimate recovery tool, but i have no clue how to use it and cant find a good guide on the internet specifically for an evo or something related
i have a board coming, so now i need your guys help using it and getting the software i need to reload my evo
i just wanna do a 100% total restore of the entire system, since id venture to guess thats the easiest and probably only option at this point
I AM SOOPAH DOOPAH ULTRA MEGA GRATEFUL FOR ANY HELP YOU GUYS CAN PROVIDE!!!
note: i would have probably gone to sprint to get a new one a day later, but right now im deployed to afghanistan so even if there was a sprint store here i dont wanna have to set up an entire convoy and send ied clearance and all that good stuff
edit: drivers are called "QHSUSB_DLOAD" although i was pretty close to guessing the name, atleast i think so
Its not possible without usbjtag.
However, there was also another port that was being experiemented with on this phone, but I don't think anything every resolved.
It is possible. You can be our guinea pig. Search for a thread already about this. It's probably at the beginning, I remember we were going to use this to nand write, before we had root.
But it's just easier to buy insurance.
sure anything to fix this thing
i posted on it that im willing to be a test subject (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1188510)
i did have insurance... but i bricked it over here lolz
you mean usbjtag as in a usb jtag board or a subjtag nt from usbjtag.com?
if possible or you run outa luck you could try just sending it to HTC...
Seems others had this issue too.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1041153
Guys phone was rooted and had this same issue and got a new one from HTC within 3days...
though if you get the thing to work right yourself more power to ya, and im sure the whole community will love to see it happen!
Keep us updated. Read up on that thread in here you posted in, in the Dev section that TrevE was workin on Download mode. Think he was gettin with RevSkills to use that stuff somehow. my memory is foggy though on all that since it was so long ago...
i would, but im deployed to afghanistan, so it would take FOR FREAKIN EVER to get it there and back
im gonna email htc and just say i randomly booted it and its giving me this problem and see what they say. im not expecting much but you never know
daktah said:
i would, but im deployed to afghanistan, so it would take FOR FREAKIN EVER to get it there and back
im gonna email htc and just say i randomly booted it and its giving me this problem and see what they say. im not expecting much but you never know
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah. just was thinking b/c itd be with HTC that they'd have to have more options for places to ship it to for fixing than the USA for ya.
i dont even have the ability to send out mail where im stationed at and plus i think the community is close to finding a jtag restore solution (hopefully)
so i think ill just stick it out and not abandon my 1 and only 3d baby just because its in a coma right now (if you guys cant tell i freakin love this phone )
So currently I am running liberty3, and I don't know if it is the rom or not, but my phone has been overheating, freezing, and just being really god damn slow. It has been like this for a while now, I have even throw my phone out of frustration(because eclipse was the same way) and I have no what to do.
I am debating to just flash cm7, but heard it is still in beta, and I was wondering if people are using it even though there are bugs.
Really frustrated at the moment would appreciate some info...(1 more year on this contract before I can get rid of this POS...=/)
CM7 is very stable. As for it being "beta" cyanogen won't support it so until DZK figures a way to get around the bootloader it will keep the "beta" label.
Regarding the problems your having with your phone it sounds like it could be just that, problems with the phone, not the ROM. Eclipse and CM7 are the two most stable ROM's we have available and should not be the source of the kind of problems you describe.
And lastly remember CM7 runs on 2.3.4, it will give you fits if you try flashing it on 2.3.5.
Sent from my MB870 using Tapatalk 2
CM7 is quicker and more stable than any of the blur-based roms ever were on my phone, and all of them had a really irritating issue with bluetooth volume that CM7 fixed. I've been running on the same flash of beta 1 since January.
thanks for the replies guys, guess ill just flash cm7, and if I still have the same problems I can go talk to a verizon rep and see if I can get a replacement or somthing =/
this is actually making me laugh the stupid **** it's doing right now, I press play on a song, and the screen starts distorting, i exit and 90 seconds later the song starts playing, but then it pauses and the phone gets hot all of a sudden
how do you manage to **** up a phone this badly I just don't understand(I have owned this since 2011 may, it can't be a phone problem it just started happening 2-3 months ago)
Personally i hate people like you.... Why the hell should verizon send you a replacement for something youve ruined by throwing at a wall or across a room... Cm7 works fine but nothing will change the fact that abusing your electronics is your problem... You cant treat tech like that and expect it to keep working
LordRalh3 said:
Personally i hate people like you.... Why the hell should verizon send you a replacement for something youve ruined by throwing at a wall or across a room... Cm7 works fine but nothing will change the fact that abusing your electronics is your problem... You cant treat tech like that and expect it to keep working
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh please. The droid x2 is one of the WORST developed android phones out right now. Not only that, the issues I have had with it came LONG before I actually "threw" it. Obviously I didn't baseball throw it into a concrete wall, but it wasn't even close enough to do damage. Verizon should send me a replacement because motorola has created a pretty pathetic excuse for a phone, or because I received a defective phone. Like I said, these issues have been going for FOREVER, and this phone in general has had issues since its release.
The phone isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. You would think that we got a brick in A box. But cm7 is very stable and works well for DD.
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
I agree that the Droid X2 isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Any problems you have is either a defective phone or you flashed something the wrong way. Almost everyone who have these ROMs on their phones have no problems. So instead of blaming the phone and calling it crap, let us help you fix it.
First of all, as was mentioned already, CM7 and Eclipse are two of the most stable ROMs for this phone. Liberty was just a quick port and has not had any updates since its release. Honestly, I dont know why people still use it. The problem with Eclipse is that it is on a different kernel than every other ROM we have. So if you went from liberty to eclipse without changing the kernel to 2.3.5 first, you will experience problems. Did you install Eclipse by using the 2.3.5 SBF file first?
Or if you want the best of both world's I have eclipse 1.3. It runs on 2.3.4 kernel. These phones do get hot. What do you mean by overheat? Does it shut down or just feel hot?
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
Sounds like luck of the draw to me. I for one do my very best not to abuse electronics because they are 1) fragile and 2) expensive to buy/repair. Keeping that in mind, I did, ONE TIME, get blackout drunk and from what I'm told, chucked my X2 at someone's head and then they stomped on it, screen facing up. Absolutely no physical damage at all. That however is very, very, very rare.
Generally in my personal experience, Motorola makes some solid phones. I've put the Droid X, X2, Droid 3 and the new RAZR through hell and they all held up on performance after being dropped, kicked and being tossed onto asphalt and concrete. The only one I actually got the break with a reasonable amount of force was the Droid 3.
I can also tell you that no two phones are created equally, ever. Why do you think every single person who owns a Nexus isn't currently on the same ROM/kernel combo? What is fast, smooth & has good battery for me might be choppy and fast to discharge for someone else. Just because your phone doesn't act how it should doesn't mean its the ROM. You could have gotten a lemon (it happens) or maybe you just damaged internals when you chucked it. Doesn't matter if you didn't throw it like a baseball. All you need to do is hit the right part with the right amount of force. That's all it takes.
Hell when I got Verizon to exchange my X2, they sent me a Stratosphere. The same day I got the phone I put it on silent and went to bed. Some asshole called me at 2:30am that night. I did not answer it. instead, I rolled back over and went to bed. The phone vibrated off of my nightstand. It fell all of about 2.5 feet onto my BED then another 5 or so inches onto my carpeted floor. The screen was completely cracked and totally 100% unresponsive. There absolutely is no minimum requirement for force or distance needed to break your phone. Simple as that.
I can relate to you in the sense that I went through a phase where I hated the X2 as well, so I'm not trying to bash you. Keep that in mind . Also keep in mind that ICS wasn't even out yet. In fact CM9 wasn't much more than a rumor. The only ROMs I had to chose from were Molten & Liberty (both unsupported), Eclipse and CM7. I guess MIUI was out already, but it was so far down in the dev forum I didn't even know it existed months after I got the phone. Now you guys have ports for Paranoid Android and AOKP? Come on man. If I'd known they were coming I would have never left and got a Stratosphere.
Not to mention that the famous X2 developer, Dragonzkiller, is not only working on kexec for your phone, he's making progress with it. If he happens to get it working and you could load any kernels you wanted that would open up development around here and you would see a lot more, fully functional ROMs. It isn't so bad. When dzk gets kexec working you will have a great phone in terms of specs and ROMs, man.
You think a locked bootloader is bad?? Haha at least you have ROMs besides stock. My stratosphere? Sure the BL wasn't locked, but the radio interface layer was. In case you didn't know, ROMs like cyanogen, aokp, paranoid android, miui, eclipse, etc. use custom RILs. What this means is that the less than 7 month old 4g phone I got as a replacement for my X2 had much less going on for it than your phone. We had a grand total of TWO ROMs and they were both based off of stock. Just mostly theme changes. Plus only 1 kernel that would let us over clock. Barely.
To answer your first question, yes. Dragonzkiller's release of cyanogen mod 7 is stable enough to be used as a daily driver for your X2. I used it as my daily ROM for about 99% of the time I owned the phone. The other 1% was me trying other ROMs. Generally in CM7, everything works. The only issue I had (from memory) was the WiFi sleep issue. However, another one of the talented X2 developers released a new build.prop mash up which helped. It didn't keep WiFi from disconnecting when the phone slept for long periods of time, but it did reconnect it before I had a chance to get a "No Data" error message.
So you're stuck with the X2 for another year. So what? I don't see what *****ing about it here will do you. What do you want us to say? You don't like the phone? Sorry.. We can't change that for you. If you had posted this topic in any other phones forum, they would have flamed the living sh*t out of you by now lol. So that's another plus. You're a part of the best forum on XDA. Hands down.:thumbup:. If you have any issues with your phone... something isn't working, you soft bricked it, you flashed cm7 over 2.3.5 and you don't know what to do, etc., there will be someone here 24/7 to KINDLY assist you and get you back up and running again. Why do you think all of us who got Dinc2's or GNex's still come around here? Great community with kind, helpful people. I dare you to go to another forum and post a noob "help me" thread somewhere and watch how many hateful, unhelpful, "search next time noob, there's stickies for a reason" replies you get. I missed the X2 so much when I was stuck on my Stratosphere. You think your phone lags? Try going from a dual core to a single core. Hahahahaha, THEN come talk to me about lag. XD.
The best I can do for you is say call Verizon and tell them you're having issues with the phone. As long as it's not visibly noticeable that you damaged it, go through tech supports steps and have them replace it with another X2 and give these ROMs another go. I would have been pissed if I had year to go on stock motoblur, but luckily I had cm7 to make things okay.
And hey, maybe you can get it exchanged. Who knows? Quite a few of us did. Just be careful as to what phone you accept. They sold the Strat to me like it was a brand new, top of the line phone. I stupidly accepted it right away, just happy to get off of the X2 only to realize I screwed myself. I pretty much had to give Verizon my left nut to get this GNex, and that was my favorite one.
Besides "sorry for the long post" - that's all i have to say. Good luck.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
RoyJ said:
Sounds like luck of the draw to me. I for one do my very best not to abuse electronics because they are 1) fragile and 2) expensive to buy/repair. Keeping that in mind, I did, ONE TIME, get blackout drunk and from what I'm told, chucked my X2 at someone's head and then they stomped on it, screen facing up. Absolutely no physical damage at all. That however is very, very, very rare.
Generally in my personal experience, Motorola makes some solid phones. I've put the Droid X, X2, Droid 3 and the new RAZR through hell and they all held up on performance after being dropped, kicked and being tossed onto asphalt and concrete. The only one I actually got the break with a reasonable amount of force was the Droid 3.
I can also tell you that no two phones are created equally, ever. Why do you think every single person who owns a Nexus isn't currently on the same ROM/kernel combo? What is fast, smooth & has good battery for me might be choppy and fast to discharge for someone else. Just because your phone doesn't act how it should doesn't mean its the ROM. You could have gotten a lemon (it happens) or maybe you just damaged internals when you chucked it. Doesn't matter if you didn't throw it like a baseball. All you need to do is hit the right part with the right amount of force. That's all it takes.
Hell when I got Verizon to exchange my X2, they sent me a Stratosphere. The same day I got the phone I put it on silent and went to bed. Some asshole called me at 2:30am that night. I did not answer it. instead, I rolled back over and went to bed. The phone vibrated off of my nightstand. It fell all of about 2.5 feet onto my BED then another 5 or so inches onto my carpeted floor. The screen was completely cracked and totally 100% unresponsive. There absolutely is no minimum requirement for force or distance needed to break your phone. Simple as that.
I can relate to you in the sense that I went through a phase where I hated the X2 as well, so I'm not trying to bash you. Keep that in mind . Also keep in mind that ICS wasn't even out yet. In fact CM9 wasn't much more than a rumor. The only ROMs I had to chose from were Molten & Liberty (both unsupported), Eclipse and CM7. I guess MIUI was out already, but it was so far down in the dev forum I didn't even know it existed months after I got the phone. Now you guys have ports for Paranoid Android and AOKP? Come on man. If I'd known they were coming I would have never left and got a Stratosphere.
Not to mention that the famous X2 developer, Dragonzkiller, is not only working on kexec for your phone, he's making progress with it. If he happens to get it working and you could load any kernels you wanted that would open up development around here and you would see a lot more, fully functional ROMs. It isn't so bad. When dzk gets kexec working you will have a great phone in terms of specs and ROMs, man.
You think a locked bootloader is bad?? Haha at least you have ROMs besides stock. My stratosphere? Sure the BL wasn't locked, but the radio interface layer was. In case you didn't know, ROMs like cyanogen, aokp, paranoid android, miui, eclipse, etc. use custom RILs. What this means is that the less than 7 month old 4g phone I got as a replacement for my X2 had much less going on for it than your phone. We had a grand total of TWO ROMs and they were both based off of stock. Just mostly theme changes. Plus only 1 kernel that would let us over clock. Barely.
To answer your first question, yes. Dragonzkiller's release of cyanogen mod 7 is stable enough to be used as a daily driver for your X2. I used it as my daily ROM for about 99% of the time I owned the phone. The other 1% was me trying other ROMs. Generally in CM7, everything works. The only issue I had (from memory) was the WiFi sleep issue. However, another one of the talented X2 developers released a new build.prop mash up which helped. It didn't keep WiFi from disconnecting when the phone slept for long periods of time, but it did reconnect it before I had a chance to get a "No Data" error message.
So you're stuck with the X2 for another year. So what? I don't see what *****ing about it here will do you. What do you want us to say? You don't like the phone? Sorry.. We can't change that for you. If you had posted this topic in any other phones forum, they would have flamed the living sh*t out of you by now lol. So that's another plus. You're a part of the best forum on XDA. Hands down.:thumbup:. If you have any issues with your phone... something isn't working, you soft bricked it, you flashed cm7 over 2.3.5 and you don't know what to do, etc., there will be someone here 24/7 to KINDLY assist you and get you back up and running again. Why do you think all of us who got Dinc2's or GNex's still come around here? Great community with kind, helpful people. I dare you to go to another forum and post a noob "help me" thread somewhere and watch how many hateful, unhelpful, "search next time noob, there's stickies for a reason" replies you get. I missed the X2 so much when I was stuck on my Stratosphere. You think your phone lags? Try going from a dual core to a single core. Hahahahaha, THEN come talk to me about lag. XD.
The best I can do for you is say call Verizon and tell them you're having issues with the phone. As long as it's not visibly noticeable that you damaged it, go through tech supports steps and have them replace it with another X2 and give these ROMs another go. I would have been pissed if I had year to go on stock motoblur, but luckily I had cm7 to make things okay.
And hey, maybe you can get it exchanged. Who knows? Quite a few of us did. Just be careful as to what phone you accept. They sold the Strat to me like it was a brand new, top of the line phone. I stupidly accepted it right away, just happy to get off of the X2 only to realize I screwed myself. I pretty much had to give Verizon my left nut to get this GNex, and that was my favorite one.
Besides "sorry for the long post" - that's all i have to say. Good luck.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
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Thanks for the long reply, I realize what I did/posted what a bit childish (I am 20 years old, I shouldn't be crying over stuff like this) but I really have never been so frustrated with a piece of technology in my life, even my moto razr that I had years ago functioned better!
I guess my only plan is to go to verizon to get it exchanged, only thing is I am not sure how to approach them with a rooted phone. Do I unroot it and then go in to the store, or do I just tell them I rooted it...Plus I have had the phone for a year, so I am not sure how they will respond to that.
morlakai said:
Thanks for the long reply, I realize what I did/posted what a bit childish (I am 20 years old, I shouldn't be crying over stuff like this) but I really have never been so frustrated with a piece of technology in my life, even my moto razr that I had years ago functioned better!
I guess my only plan is to go to verizon to get it exchanged, only thing is I am not sure how to approach them with a rooted phone. Do I unroot it and then go in to the store, or do I just tell them I rooted it...Plus I have had the phone for a year, so I am not sure how they will respond to that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check this thread out:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1317707
If you are going to take your phone into Verizon, follow these instructions to get your phone back to stock. This will remove root and make it like you just bought your phone. Who knows, maybe it will fix the problems you have as well. Try it out and if your issues continue, take it in.
morlakai said:
Thanks for the long reply, I realize what I did/posted what a bit childish (I am 20 years old, I shouldn't be crying over stuff like this) but I really have never been so frustrated with a piece of technology in my life, even my moto razr that I had years ago functioned better!
I guess my only plan is to go to verizon to get it exchanged, only thing is I am not sure how to approach them with a rooted phone. Do I unroot it and then go in to the store, or do I just tell them I rooted it...Plus I have had the phone for a year, so I am not sure how they will respond to that.
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Click to collapse
**** run aokp on this phone and tell me if u dont like it
Sent from my MB870 using xda premium
morlakai said:
Thanks for the long reply, I realize what I did/posted what a bit childish (I am 20 years old, I shouldn't be crying over stuff like this) but I really have never been so frustrated with a piece of technology in my life, even my moto razr that I had years ago functioned better!
I guess my only plan is to go to verizon to get it exchanged, only thing is I am not sure how to approach them with a rooted phone. Do I unroot it and then go in to the store, or do I just tell them I rooted it...Plus I have had the phone for a year, so I am not sure how they will respond to that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically you would need to SBF your phone. SBF stands for system boot file, I believe. It is the complete stock factory image for your phone. That plus a data wipe/factory reset and they will have no idea you ever rooted it.
As for having it for a year, you may run into a problem there. Motorola might cover the X2 for two years, I'm not sure. Your warranty could be expired. You have to call Verizon to know for sure. If it's not expired just tell them that you're having whatever issues. They will run you through some steps, probably a data wipe, amongst other things. You tell them that no, none of the steps were able to fix the problems you are currently facing. At this point, if the phone is still under warranty they will go ahead and replace it for you. If not they will tell you to go through insurance, if you have it.
If not you're either going to have to pay for another phone off contract from a third party or stick with the one you have now.
If you still have warranty and really want to get a different phone, just tell them that you did plenty of research independently online and it would seem that no amount of X2s will fix the problems you have. That they seem to be due to poor coding at Motorola's end. That's what I did. Just remember to look up the phone they offer you as a replacement so you don't get burned like me. Not just the specs, but here on xda and rootzwiki as well. Make sure there's a development forum for it with plenty of selections for ROMs and kernels before you make your choice.
I was able to not only get rid of my X2 like that, but the Stratosphere as well. The one I had less than a month hahaha. If you're covered by warranty give it a shot.
P.S. The most frustrated I have ever been with a piece of electronics? My PlayStation 2 slim. I had a few of them, but there was one in particular that pissed me off. It slowly but surely stopped reading my discs. 1 at a time. It would read a game, I'd go to bed and the next day it wouldn't read that game anymore. It could play other games, but not that one. It got progressively worse until the only disc of any format it would read was SOCOM: Combined Assault. Wasn't too bad, it'd give me trouble every now and then, but it was the only disc it would play for months. Socom also happened to be my favorite game at the time and I played it all the time with my cousins and friends from school. We were all in a clan and we ran that game. Anyways I was with a bunch of guys one day and we were in the middle of a clan war. Ladder match. We made it all the way to the top, and my PS2 stopped reading socom. I tried frantically to get it working again, but it was useless. The laser finally crapped out. In a blind rage knowing the PS2 just cost us our biggest clan war ever, I threw it out of my second story window. I then proceeded to go outside with a hammer and utterly destroy it.
I had just gotten a job and was working, so I had to buy a new one. Lesson learned. Those *****es were expensive lol. Never did anything like that again.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Getting frustrated is very easy to do and really don't help much. Want some senseless humor, read a few pages back in Off Topic and read my rants. I was ready to trash my new Gnex.
Just take a breather and ask for a hand. We are all like one big dysfunctional family. I've yet to see anyone be neglected that has needed help.
tallyforeman said:
Getting frustrated is very easy to do and really don't help much. Want some senless humor, read a few pages back in Off Topic and read my rants. I was ready to trash my new Gnex.
Just take a breather and ask for a hand. We are all like one big dysfunctional family. I've yet to see anyone be neglected that has needed help.
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What was the problem with the nexus?
Sent from my BAMF Nexus
RoyJ said:
What was the problem with the nexus?
Sent from my BAMF Nexus
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To this day I still don't know. Maybe user error, but I think it is tempermental. I literally had to wipe the hell out of it before I could flash the first rom. At one point I wiped everything so many times, I really thought it was over. But all of a sudden it decided to work and hasn't missed a beat since. Now, I don't wipe anything on it anymore. It runs like a sewing machine.
CM7 is still rockin' on 2 of the X2's that I loaded and themed out.
morlakai said:
So currently I am running liberty3, and I don't know if it is the rom or not, but my phone has been overheating, freezing, and just being really god damn slow. It has been like this for a while now, I have even throw my phone out of frustration(because eclipse was the same way) and I have no what to do.
I am debating to just flash cm7, but heard it is still in beta, and I was wondering if people are using it even though there are bugs.
Really frustrated at the moment would appreciate some info...(1 more year on this contract before I can get rid of this POS...=/)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as overheating is concerned you may want to look at adobe flash. Using the latest version caused issues for me and I gave had to revert back to a previous version. As others have mentioned going with CM7 or eclipse will make a huge difference. I have had 3 other smartphones with vzw and this was the best one so far.
Sent from my MB870 using Tapatalk 2
RoyJ said:
Basically you would need to SBF your phone. SBF stands for system boot file, I believe. It is the complete stock factory image for your phone. That plus a data wipe/factory reset and they will have no idea you ever rooted it.
As for having it for a year, you may run into a problem there. Motorola might cover the X2 for two years, I'm not sure. Your warranty could be expired. You have to call Verizon to know for sure. If it's not expired just tell them that you're having whatever issues. They will run you through some steps, probably a data wipe, amongst other things. You tell them that no, none of the steps were able to fix the problems you are currently facing. At this point, if the phone is still under warranty they will go ahead and replace it for you. If not they will tell you to go through insurance, if you have it.
If not you're either going to have to pay for another phone off contract from a third party or stick with the one you have now.
If you still have warranty and really want to get a different phone, just tell them that you did plenty of research independently online and it would seem that no amount of X2s will fix the problems you have. That they seem to be due to poor coding at Motorola's end. That's what I did. Just remember to look up the phone they offer you as a replacement so you don't get burned like me. Not just the specs, but here on xda and rootzwiki as well. Make sure there's a development forum for it with plenty of selections for ROMs and kernels before you make your choice.
I was able to not only get rid of my X2 like that, but the Stratosphere as well. The one I had less than a month hahaha. If you're covered by warranty give it a shot.
P.S. The most frustrated I have ever been with a piece of electronics? My PlayStation 2 slim. I had a few of them, but there was one in particular that pissed me off. It slowly but surely stopped reading my discs. 1 at a time. It would read a game, I'd go to bed and the next day it wouldn't read that game anymore. It could play other games, but not that one. It got progressively worse until the only disc of any format it would read was SOCOM: Combined Assault. Wasn't too bad, it'd give me trouble every now and then, but it was the only disc it would play for months. Socom also happened to be my favorite game at the time and I played it all the time with my cousins and friends from school. We were all in a clan and we ran that game. Anyways I was with a bunch of guys one day and we were in the middle of a clan war. Ladder match. We made it all the way to the top, and my PS2 stopped reading socom. I tried frantically to get it working again, but it was useless. The laser finally crapped out. In a blind rage knowing the PS2 just cost us our biggest clan war ever, I threw it out of my second story window. I then proceeded to go outside with a hammer and utterly destroy it.
I had just gotten a job and was working, so I had to buy a new one. Lesson learned. Those *****es were expensive lol. Never did anything like that again.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
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Click to collapse
ah ok, yeah I know how to SBF, so I will most likely do that and go to the verizon store to see what's up
if they offer me a replacement phone, I guess ill just ask them to give me a few days to make a decision so I can do research and find out if I am getting ripped off or not
thanks for all the replies guys, I know I come off as kind of an ass(ill be honest im pretty douchey) but this phone has transformed me into something T_T
cm7 is a good rom. Fast too! Since it is still based on the 2.3.4 kernel it has the orientation sensor bug too though.
Sent from my Xoom using xda app-developers app
Hi guys! Long time lurker/flasher/tweaker here. Really not sure where to post this tho so mods please move to best area if this isnt it.
To start with this may sound a lil crazy but without getting too much into it I am a victim of something called "Gang Stalking". Google it if ya wanna know more, they know everywhere I am. Crazy crazy evil **** but anyways...
So I have always suspected to have trackers/keyloggers installed on any devices I have if someone manages to get their hands on it. Well I just purchased a new Dell Venue 8 the other day and had a weird experience buying it to start with. Im an American currently in Mexico (part of my journey trying to escape my persecuters) and I went to Office Depot to pick it up as they had a killer sale for it going on (a whole 1/3rd off and electronics are more expensive here)... Well i get the usual run around I get at any business if my persecuters find out im going there for something. Like "no you can only get that special online blah blah etc" when the site clearly says in store only lol. Anyway im used to management being paid off wherever I frequent to give me a hard time and such so as usual I demand the manager and when he tries to give me the run around I start asking for his boss and the number to corporate and threaten to call them there and often they cave. Well he did but says hes going to have to "pull some strings (just for me)" lmao but that to come back tomorrow afternoon and he would have me one at that price. So I say fine whatever. I come back the next day and pick it up and its not factory sealed but I dont say anything and think "well as long as it works fine then ill just take it to end the headache"... It looked brand new still.
I get it home finally and after playing with it a couple days I figure that after that weird scenario at Office Depot I would do some snooping to see if I could find anything on it out of the ordinary (like spyware) and it goes without saying that IF theres been something installed that its going to be the best of the best, probably government level software. Especially since they know Im a tech wiz. I have not got around to rooting it yet as the only method requires a PC so just havnt had a chance. When I first started it up it went through setup and updating to 4.4 as if it was factory fresh. Well I do a lil research and see that theres not much (if any) chance something of that caliber could be installed without rooting first. Well I didnt think it had been rooted, atleast I knew not by me, but I hop on the playstore to download (brother joeykrim's) root checker just to see and the WEIRDEST thing happened. I hit download, it came quick, and the INSTANT it was done and said " installing root checker" my screen went totally blank. Like I could still see the backlight so it was on still, just blacked out. Only way to cure was hit power twice and my pin screen came back up and things seemed normal, and I was able to run root checker and it said NO root but I still thought how odd is that with the screen? I knew better but checked a couple more apps out to verify they didnt exibit the same pattern, they didnt of course. I then tried installing another app called root checker and it blanked the screen out again. Tried with an app called just "root check" and all was normal. Once again with another "root checker" app and the screen blanked. This is super weird no? Almost seems like spyware thats detecting a root checker being installed and running some batch process to hide root or something. Well I also learned in one of the root checker apps that there was in fact a version of BusyBox installed, which I then verified by running. Wouldnt the phone have to be rooted for busybox? I know theres a no root version but I sure didnt install it. Any chance of it being factory installed? So what should I make of all this guys? Kernel level spyware? If so it could survive a factory reset right? How could I get it out and be 100% sure? If I flash a stock image from here would it remove ANY chance there could be spyware? Even of say a government level? Sorry for the long post but help please!
Bump. I know some of you guys know something about this kinda thing. Scared to answer jaha? Would it help if I removed the word government lol? I actually think I may have killed it anyway (fingers crossed)... It seems after doing the "installing root checker and blanking the screen" process a few times (seems like 5 times if I remember correctly) it no longer exhibits this behavior, and after this lil round of playing my tab was noticeably hot (like 3d gaming for a half hr hot). Its almost as if after going into "safe mode" a certain number of times the spyware "Self destructed" to avoid detection. Hopefully thats the case and hopefully this will help some other victim of this cruel torture one day. Knowledge is power guys! Dont let these psycho NWO pricks get you down! They want to rule and control the world but they can only rule you if you let em! Educate yourself about the BS going on in this seemingly FREE country. Heh. Much love!