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Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket).
So I think that htc roms must be available in torrents using public trackers and publish in mininova.org, meganova.org or other torrents sites available. If everyone seed some roms they will always be available for public.
What you think about this?
I am down... just don;t know how to package them up or else I would. I get a new pc this week and have though of making my other one a file store...
Hi,
We must build a private network for Forum users, We can use KDX a multi platform peer to peer client/server app, it is like Hotline.
Slimsaturn: BUY A MAC OR USE LINUX BOYCOTT MICROSOFT
Regards,
Taguapire.
boycott microsoft!
i was thinking of upgrading to Vista. now i changed my mind! u dont piss off your customers that supporting u!
Since i have a hermes and i live for xda, I'm backing up the ftp and i'll store it. Possibly setup ftp access for requested users.
I think we should tell M$ to ........................................KISS OUR A$$..............................OUR...................................."ENTIRE......A$$"...............That's what "I" think............................
That being said........ start backing up the ROMS etc...... we'll figure out how to get them out to users.......... if you can download the things from HTC.......why does M$ have their panties in a bunch?????????? Sheeesssshhhhhh what a bunch of CRY BABIES!!!!!!!!
vpu2....OUT!!!!
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Its the enthusiast that keeps them making money! I am constantly "selling" the merits of M$ powered PPC's to anyone who will listen, I am in the IT industry and have in the last 3 or so years been responsible for over 50 sales of M$ based devices to customers and friends. Because of XDA Dev I will buy a WM device again and again. But if M$ plays the Bully and forces the demise of XDA Dev I will have no reason to by a WM device again. I will then look into other devices such as Sony etc.
I'm sure you are all the same as me, its the the amazing endless customization options that XDA and WM devices offer you that keeps you coming back, without that its no better than any other device.
But sadly Big Corporations don't care, even if we could get a petition signed by 10 000 users they would just shrug and say "So what, there are millions of other users"
What I would like to know is what possible damage can be done by having M$ roms available to M$ customers. Its not like someone can make his own device and then download a rom here. If you use a rom from XDA Dev then you own a M$ device! and you have paid M$ for the rom, Why then are you not allowed to make it better!
No if/when we can get a working Linux solution we can once and for all "dump" M$.
Maybe HTC will bring out a device running Linux in the near future.
Yours in Hope
Jules
As annoying as it is this is the right thing for MS to do to protect themselves.
If it was a little company would you feel less angry?
The only reason you feel angry is due to them being a multi billion dollar corporation beating down on "the little guys" aka us.
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
The way I see it, allowing people to down load different ROM's hurts no one. Al they are trying to do is fix up the defective software. If MS spent more time fixing the defects in their software and less time with lawyers people would not need look around for other ROM's. There is prima facie a very powerful case for a class action against MS for the defects in WM5.
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
ZaJules said:
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
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Click to collapse
Frustrating thing is its not about profit etc... i read that IP (Intellectual Property) law in US states that if you knowingly let ANYONE (not just in US) use your IP without correct license you stand to let anyone do that. Since you have willingly let someone get away with IP infringment you couldnt claim say if the vista source code was used without permission!??
A simple agreement between xda-devs and MS would get passed this but i guess the boffs in the MS law department arent willing to listen. We are possibly the best source of FREE testing and debugging they have!
And may i remind everyone we have ALL paid for a WM license, this is not (as some idiot has said in the "sign the petition" thread) software piracy, it is FREELY available from operators and HTC!
Well, for what I read M$ says that many customers are pissing of their mobile phone providers with roms that are unsupported by that provider.
And for that reason, they say........, roms must not be available here.....
It's fine we can put them elsewhere.
This saves the forum from being shut down or having any legal problems at all. This ensures a long lasting community without having to go underground.
suineg said:
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
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I will pay for an upgrade, but if they don't make it available I have no moral problem of using a hacked version for the Hermes. It's not that M$ will loose any revenue if the product isn't available to buy. Not having VM6 will not make me buy a new phone faster either. As most of us I guess we're stuck with a 2 year contract or so anyhow.
It seems like a really bad thing on MS' side but really its not that bigga deal.
With so many of us here it is easy to build another database at other places and even servers like rapidshare, megaupload etc. They might take them down but they will be back up very quickly. That being said once the network is made all we need to do is get the word around via PM's as to keep it off the boards to keep MS from being able to do anything. Simple
Upload the roms, have in your sig you have links, give out the links in PM's and we are all good to use xda as the great community it always has been
Cheers
vador said:
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket)....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually; it's HTC we should be mad at... If they would release some decently functioning firmware for our devices in the first place, there would not be any need for a ROM archive so we can cook up our own ROM sets...
And i really supect HTC has also triggered this M$ action, because of the appearance of diverse test-ROM's for Trinity and Hermes among others...
Just like someone said before: why do these multi-billion-dollar-bohemoths of companies piss on their customers like this ??? It's truly shocking how they crank out half-working product and kick them on the market, and forget about them instantly (support for existing customers? what's that ...?).
They should better concentrate to work with us, and create a better user-experience for all their customers... But since we have a thing called "world-economy", don't count on it to happen....it never will...
Makes me sad....
ZaJules said:
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not that I like that the ROMs were removed, it was a very helpful service.
But this anti-MS ranting does not help. MS is not the salvation army, and they do (and have to do) what is legally possible to protect their business interests and that of their customers. The free download of one of their OS is not something to can seriously expect them to tolerate in the long run.
Folks:
Wiki's are editable by everybody... especially the place were "links to roms" are.
XDA will fight any m$ attempts to have us remove links to roms. That amounts to web censorship.
Well I had just made an excalibur torrent, but I like hermes better, I should have everything down tomorrow and a torrent ready then, sucks Im not gonna be able to use orb. if you havent I suggest you register at demonoid.com. there are other torrents there you may find interesting.
Guys, theres a movement in the community to get rid of this site which sells access to pirated paid apps. Now, this isnt to promote the site, this is to get rid of it. Please go here and sign the petition. All the information is there. Support app developers who work hard to make our phones better by helping to get rid of these pirates.
http://bit.ly/bkKwaZ
Support your community!
Also, if you follow this link: http://twitter.com/Mini_Lee/status/20682622042 it will take you to the tweet i put out with the petition link directly in it. So if you're one of those people with thousands of followers on twitter, send it out!
Done, and tweeting it.
Signed - thank you to whoever started this petition!
Been following this on Twitter today. Retweeted protests, and just signed this. I'll be honest, I pirate a lot of stuff, but I wouldn't pirate from a hard working Android dev. If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
OP updated with link to RT'able tweet link.
Kusotare, what do you intend to do with the results of the petition?
I checked, their domain is registered through GoDaddy and hidden by DomainsByProxy. I sent an e-mail to DomainsByProxy to see whether they actually respond to information about illegal activity. It has been my experience that such complaints to GoDaddy will go unanswered but e-mail is cheap so I hit them up too.
But in all honesty, this will be a minor hiccup, if it gets them taken down at all. The overall IP block is owned by Worldstream out of the Netherlands (according to the RIPE branch of IANA), although some tools report the actual location as Portugal. If you run a reverse IP lookup (try a good one like YouGetSignal), the web server at the same IP is also host to a bunch of Iranian spam and piracy blogs under the vatanblog.com domain, so my guess is whomever owns the server (which isn't going to be the same as those running the network where the IP block is managed) isn't going to be too worried about the results of a petition.
But I suppose it can't hurt to hit up Worldstream, so I've e-mailed them as well.
P.S. Phromik, speaking as a software developer who has been victimized by piracy, you're a hypocritical tool.
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
s15274n said:
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
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Click to collapse
Really no need for him to roll in here and brag about his piracy, is there?
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
Except he's not bragging... he's being honest.
srqt said:
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
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Click to collapse
GoDaddy are the domain registrant. The actual website is hosted on a dedicated server provided by worldstream.nl so you want to be contacting [email protected] as well as the Dutch anti-piracy outfit BREIN at [email protected]
It's interesting to note that the same dedicated server is being used to host several other warez sites including some pornography forums. I'm pretty sure neither the server provider or BREIN would be happy about these.
It's interesting to note that within the last 12 hours androidplayground has been taken offline. However I suspect this was done by the owner rather than any takedown notice. He has already set his twitter account to private and one of the last tweets he sent was about having a new server ready.
To Bad google isn't jumping on this. I mean you see his lame comment on nearly every app that comes out in the market.
What confuses me is why would somebody send him money to become a member knowing he/she is a thief in the first place.
The results of the petition will be sent to the domain registrar, the host and paypal in a three way attack. If all goes well, they'll lose their domain, hosting and ability to charge people through paypal simultaneously. I have already emailed all three of the companies to let them know about the petition.
So yes, while it may be a losing battle in the long run to fight piracy, at least we can do what we can. Signing a petition or firing off an email takes the same amount of time it does to write a post here, so why not help out?
Response from Worldstream:
Hi,
The website has been taken down earlier today.
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Dirk Vromans
Technical Engineer
Worldstream C.V.
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Click to collapse
Although from one of the earlier posts it sounds like the site owner was already planning to move it anyway -- which is what I was getting at earlier. The best you can hope for is to just go chasing him around endlessly.
I saw the same crap over and over in the Palm Treo software world...
The new licensing system might help. =]
Phromik said:
...If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
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Click to collapse
Whatever....
Without defending what I consider to be a low-life, who spams every review on the Market, most pirates wouldn't really buy most products they steal, just as most people don't normally pirate stuff they genuinely want and like.
There are a ton of pirate sources for the iPhone, yet good developers do pretty well in the App store.
The only developers whining are the ones who have a crappy product and blame the nebulous evil of "piracy" for their lack of success.
This is outrageous!! Piracy should be free.
I mean that completely tongue-in-cheek, as I spend a LOT of money on android software. I admit I don't hate piracy in general, as a sort of try-before-you-buy system, but charging money for stolen goods is evil. These people are scum.
Former AndroidPlayground.net user
I used to use this site because I just assumed that they had an agreement with the developers. I couldn't even imagine the audacity it would take to charge people for pirated software.
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
NOT trying to justify it, but it is something to consider.
jswanstr said:
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
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Click to collapse
I'm just guessing, but so far all data indicates that iPhone users seem to be significantly more willing to pay for apps. I'm hoping this changes as the Android becomes more mainstream.
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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Click to collapse
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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Click to collapse
+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Click to collapse
Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
Hey all,
I've been a lurker for a while, been looking for a way to encourage the now Google-owned Motorola Mobility to unlock their bootloaders much like HTC has wisely done, but it's becoming more and more obvious to me that they don't care about the "minority" of us that actually feels as though we are entitled to full admin rights on our phones that we either paid a ton of cash for, or signed a lengthy contract to obtain. Verizon is the one blocking it? HTC found a way, and so can Motorola Mobility...that is cop-out.
My proposal is that there be an effort to unlocked the bootloader, I am not some expert programmer, and I am open to whatever will help the cause. I know there was a bounty on it, but to me this isn't about money, I'll donate time, money, information ripped from my phone if it, in some way, contributes to unlocked that bootloader. Even if you need my unused CPU cycles to calculate things, I don't care, just tell me what I can to do help, because I am sick of not being able to use my phone to it's fully potential.
Maybe I am being naive, but I believe if we all worked together we could accomplish this goal. If you agree, please, let's organize and figure this out!
-Joshua
I love optimism
I'm down with the movement...
This phone does have mad potential to be so limited compared to other phones.
I just can't believe that we are running an unofficial, incomplete version of CM7 and it runs smoother than stock Blur.
Is that telling you something about Motorola?
Do you guys think Google will make that decision for Motorola or will Moto stay the same?
Sent from my Android
Worth a try...
Re: Google changing Moto policy
I don't know so much about Google changing Motorola's stance on the locked bootloader, we've tried petitioning the company themselves, but have we tried petitioning Google? Or maybe it's too soon, maybe they are working on it right now? Hard to tell, and I don't want to put pressure on Google too soon especially if they are trying diligently right now to do the right thing.
But the above poster is right, cracking it ourselves is definitely worth a try. I have contacts (unfortunately know inside Motorola), I know people with lots of knowledge on encryption, I'll be honest one of my friends does have a knack for the impossible, but this would be too much for one lone person. I also have a few computers in the house, to donate computing power. None above 5 GB of RAM unfortunately, but my friend with all of that know-how does also have a synchronous 20/mbit up/down connection to the net, if that helps, and I have another friend that is the linux admin at a an unnamed private university in Durham that might could lend a hand in some way.
We have the resources, we just need to pool them.
Someone with the realistic technical know-how, just tell us where to begin, and the shortest path to getting to our goal and we'll do all we can to contribute!
Thanks for understanding and not just writing this off as a pipe-dream...because I know if we work together we can accomplish almost anything.
-Joshua
spyda256 said:
I don't know so much about Google changing Motorola's stance on the locked bootloader, we've tried petitioning the company themselves, but have we tried petitioning Google? Or maybe it's too soon, maybe they are working on it right now? Hard to tell, and I don't want to put pressure on Google too soon especially if they are trying diligently right now to do the right thing.
But the above poster is right, cracking it ourselves is definitely worth a try. I have contacts (unfortunately know inside Motorola), I know people with lots of knowledge on encryption, I'll be honest one of my friends does have a knack for the impossible, but this would be too much for one lone person. I also have a few computers in the house, to donate computing power. None above 5 GB of RAM unfortunately, but my friend with all of that know-how does also have a synchronous 20/mbit up/down connection to the net, if that helps, and I have another friend that is the linux admin at a an unnamed private university in Durham that might could lend a hand in some way.
We have the resources, we just need to pool them.
Someone with the realistic technical know-how, just tell us where to begin, and the shortest path to getting to our goal and we'll do all we can to contribute!
Thanks for understanding and not just writing this off as a pipe-dream...because I know if we work together we can accomplish almost anything.
-Joshua
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i love your optimism i have some old pms that may help with the effort
SHA-1 brute force can be cracked for around $2 of Amazon cloud computing service.
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/r...for-2-10-with-amazons-cloud-service-20101122/
Isn't boot loader use SHA-1 encryption?
(of course, the key may be much longer, but it may not be impossible for cheap. I say try to pool together like $100 and try Amazon cloud computing a try?)
Re: Amazon
hpark21:
I like the way you're thinking, does anyone else think this might be a good call? I know there was a bounty of around ~$800 somewhere, so I doubt if all of us who rightfully were promised and unlocked bootloader wouldn't mind pooling a bit of money for the computing power, hell I myself would give $50 to the effort if we knew it was a viable solution.
Other thoughts?
Also, ztotherad, if you could send me those PMs maybe we can sift through those and see if there are some other avenues, nothing is off the table at this point.
thanks again for coming together on this, that is the true meaning of community.
spyda256 said:
hpark21:
I like the way you're thinking, does anyone else think this might be a good call? I know there was a bounty of around ~$800 somewhere, so I doubt if all of us who rightfully were promised and unlocked bootloader wouldn't mind pooling a bit of money for the computing power, hell I myself would give $50 to the effort if we knew it was a viable solution.
Other thoughts?
Also, ztotherad, if you could send me those PMs maybe we can sift through those and see if there are some other avenues, nothing is off the table at this point.
thanks again for coming together on this, that is the true meaning of community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i can def send you them, idk how much help theyll be
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
Stuckinabox said:
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
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Click to collapse
In one of the many threads concerning bootloader unlocks, I believe the chances of us finding it were determined to be 1mill:1. It would take us over a decade to manually come up with the key. I don't want to kill confidence, but I'd like to keep things relatively rational.
Sent from my MB870 using xda premium
Stuckinabox said:
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
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Click to collapse
it's been established that brute forcing is nearly impossible, not completely impossible
it is something that would take an insane amount of resources to accomplish , and/or time ,
it would really come down to "how lucky are we?" really, as in::: how lucky are we that we stumble across or know a genius that can crack it, stumble across needed files, etc...
good luck to all who try, I wish I could do anything to get us there, but I don't know the first thing when it comes to this stuff, don't give up the dream!
Basically, what it comes down to is:
Find out what their hash key is. (encrypted password)
Then, try to go through all valid characters and see whether the input matches the output hash.
If one is lucky and they used short enough password, then it will be quick to find.
If unlucky and they used really long password, then the answer is that we won't be able to find it in REASONABLE time. (I would say 1-2 months to be reasonable - at $2/hr, it would cost $48/ day).
Only issue is when do we stop?
hpark21 said:
Basically, what it comes down to is:
Find out what their hash key is. (encrypted password)
Then, try to go through all valid characters and see whether the input matches the output hash.
If one is lucky and they used short enough password, then it will be quick to find.
If unlucky and they used really long password, then the answer is that we won't be able to find it in REASONABLE time. (I would say 1-2 months to be reasonable - at $2/hr, it would cost $48/ day).
Only issue is when do we stop?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There was some kind of crazy algorithm applied to each character to generate the correct item for each number of the key, correct? We would have to come up with that too?
Sent from my MB870 using xda premium
THANK YOU! Finally ... a revived movement. I pledged $100 on another thread and I'm good for putting it toward an unlocked bootloader again!
To learn from one of the most influential groups of our generation ... anonymous utilizes botnets to pool computing resources ... if we get a tool that could function similarly, could we not pool 1000s of computers together to crack it faster? It would make what is not feasible for a small set of computers to do... feasible. If all most users have to do is download a tool that gives us access to processing power and bandwidth ... users will download the hell out of it.
Count me in.
[ sent from _base2 ]
Hope
I understand doubters, and odds are likely against us, but that's ok, no one person can do it, and maybe not just one method, but somehow we WILL get to our goal. Whether Motorola capitulates or we find a method to crack it, we will not have this awesome hardware go to waste.
I am not generally a "black hat" kind of person, but in this case we are in the right so far as I am concerned (please don't quote DMCA BS to me, lol) because they made a promise to their customers, and it will be kept, whether they like it or not.
So, I am with the above poster that mention he didn't know quite where to start, or where we have already made progress, but if someone can help us out, explain the process, we figure out how to move forward. (Please forgive the run-on sentence).
I've minimal experience programming, only VB.net, C++, and a bit of Java from college, and I do tier 2 desktop support for a bank these days, but on my off time I'd love to spend it on something worthwhile, all of you deserve this, and we'll make it happen.
Maybe it's the troubleshooter in me that sees the problem and says "oh no, there's a way, we just need to find it". I have a colleague, the one I spoke of before, he has a knack for doing incredible things, so once we have a breakdown of what we need to do, perhaps he can be of help.
So my friends, where do we go from here?
spyda256 said:
I understand doubters, and odds are likely against us, but that's ok, no one person can do it, and maybe not just one method, but somehow we WILL get to our goal. Whether Motorola capitulates or we find a method to crack it, we will not have this awesome hardware go to waste.
I am not generally a "black hat" kind of person, but in this case we are in the right so far as I am concerned (please don't quote DMCA BS to me, lol) because they made a promise to their customers, and it will be kept, whether they like it or not.
So, I am with the above poster that mention he didn't know quite where to start, or where we have already made progress, but if someone can help us out, explain the process, we figure out how to move forward. (Please forgive the run-on sentence).
I've minimal experience programming, only VB.net, C++, and a bit of Java from college, and I do tier 2 desktop support for a bank these days, but on my off time I'd love to spend it on something worthwhile, all of you deserve this, and we'll make it happen.
Maybe it's the troubleshooter in me that sees the problem and says "oh no, there's a way, we just need to find it". I have a colleague, the one I spoke of before, he has a knack for doing incredible things, so once we have a breakdown of what we need to do, perhaps he can be of help.
So my friends, where do we go from here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sir, did you get my pms?
Re: PMs
Nope, just saw them, thanks for that!
We know that google introduced new mobile payment system i.e. Android Pay
In order to use android pay we need to Have NFC on our mobile device . One plus 2 which is known as "2016 Flagship killer " Should have NFC so , can we add NFC to OP2 as I have seen two terminals at back of device.
IMHO it doesn't make sense to release a 2016 "flagship" without nfc, now that there is all that payment thing going on; this is a dealbreaker for me.
let's hope they make a nfc enabled back cover or something.
yeah i really need a nfc enabled back cover, or a diy NFC solution is also ok
elban said:
now that there is all that payment thing going on
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Click to collapse
Over time millions of people will lose their jobs because of people getting used to using their phones with self checkout registers. Millions of people who will have less money to spend on things or services that other companies need to sell in order to hand out paychecks to their employees. This will have terrible consequences.
and people will lose their job because we use electricity instead of oil to light up the streets...
but the handsfree system could use Bluetooth
http://www.slashgear.com/google-hands-free-sounds-like-android-pay-sans-android-28385795/
if adoption is good enough this could make nfc useless
sssggg said:
Over time millions of people will lose their jobs because of people getting used to using their phones with self checkout registers. Millions of people who will have less money to spend on things or services that other companies need to sell in order to hand out paychecks to their employees. This will have terrible consequences.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why are you using the internet to talk to people?!
SEND LETTERS!!!
Think of all of the postmen losing their jobs because of people like you!
I rest my case.
sssggg said:
Over time millions of people will lose their jobs because of people getting used to using their phones with self checkout registers. Millions of people who will have less money to spend on things or services that other companies need to sell in order to hand out paychecks to their employees. This will have terrible consequences.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This isn't really a very good argument. You could say the same about any technology. Might as well be living in the stone age.
sssggg said:
Over time millions of people will lose their jobs because of people getting used to using their phones with self checkout registers. Millions of people who will have less money to spend on things or services that other companies need to sell in order to hand out paychecks to their employees. This will have terrible consequences.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait, doesn't this argument work for credit cards at self-checkout registers too? Or... cash? Not sure how the phone is relevant.
May be NFC is not used frequently , but for those people who need it , it is necessary
thebobmannh said:
Wait, doesn't this argument work for credit cards at self-checkout registers too? Or... cash? Not sure how the phone is relevant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course it does. And it's relevant, because NFC payments that are being authorized by using your phone's fingerprint scanner are making things MUCH easier and faster. The more people get used to paying this way, the more self-checkout registers you will see in the wild.
You guys may be laughing now, but last time I bought something from IKEA, they had at least 6 or 8 self-checkout registers open but only one where you could pay in cash. Pretty much the same situation at a nearby supermarket and the hardware store and this is just the beginning.
sssggg said:
Of course it does. And it's relevant, because NFC payments that are being authorized by using your phone's fingerprint scanner are making things MUCH easier and faster. The more people get used to paying this way, the more self-checkout registers you will see in the wild.
You guys may be laughing now, but last time I bought something from IKEA, they had at least 6 or 8 self-checkout registers open but only one where you could pay in cash. Pretty much the same situation at a nearby supermarket and the hardware store and this is just the beginning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know about laughing, but certainly chuckling at how dramatic you're being. I for one welcome our new robot overlords. As others have said, technology will always displace jobs, and new jobs will alwyas pop up in their place. At least, they have historically. ATMs "replaced" bank tellers like 40 years ago, and I'm sure people were crying to the heavens then too.
Sorry you lost your job, though.
sssggg said:
Of course it does. And it's relevant, because NFC payments that are being authorized by using your phone's fingerprint scanner are making things MUCH easier and faster. The more people get used to paying this way, the more self-checkout registers you will see in the wild.
You guys may be laughing now, but last time I bought something from IKEA, they had at least 6 or 8 self-checkout registers open but only one where you could pay in cash. Pretty much the same situation at a nearby supermarket and the hardware store and this is just the beginning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which brings me back to my previous argument. What about the car? I bet plenty of horse and buggy drivers lost their jobs. What about automatic telephone connection? Switchboard operators lost their jobs. What about computers? Plenty of manual calculators lost their jobs. Do we just denounce all tech?
Heisenberg said:
Which brings me back to my previous argument. What about the car? I bet plenty of horse and buggy drivers lost their jobs. What about automatic telephone connection? Switchboard operators lost their jobs. What about computers? Plenty of manual calculators lost their jobs. Do we just denounce all tech?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
Lol
Sent via Note 10.1 2014 Edition on Tapatalk
elban said:
IMHO it doesn't make sense to release a 2016 "flagship" without nfc, now that there is all that payment thing going on; this is a dealbreaker for me.
let's hope they make a nfc enabled back cover or something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok the following:
a) that payment thing is going on for quite a while and it will take another while until it will be well established and if you're so much for the latest stuff, by then you'll have the next or over next generation device already
b) you can add nfc to ANY device for exaxtly 1$ and by typing your bluetooth address into the right spot. since i do not have oxygen OS i can only tell you where that is when i have the device and albeit i don't currently us nfc i will probably do it just to show all the moaners how silly they were
to pay so much attention to something so easy to solve.
magnamentis said:
ok the following:
a) that payment thing is going on for quite a while and it will take another while until it will be well established and if you're so much for the latest stuff, by then you'll have the next or over next generation device already
b) you can add nfc to ANY device for exaxtly 1$ and by typing your bluetooth address into the right spot. since i do not have oxygen OS i can only tell you where that is when i have the device and albeit i don't currently us nfc i will probably do it just to show all the moaners how silly they were
to pay so much attention to something so easy to solve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) you can pay with NFC since some years ago, so it's not a new tech waiting to be accepted and widespread, because it's already.
2) NFC has a lot of other uses other than paying.
3) I expect a flagship to have at least all the hardware that the other mid range and even some low cost phones have.
4) If you like the phone buy it. I won't.
elban said:
1) you can pay with NFC since some years ago, so it's not a new tech waiting to be accepted and widespread, because it's already.
2) NFC has a lot of other uses other than paying.
3) I expect a flagship to have at least all the hardware that the other mid range and even some low cost phones have.
4) If you like the phone buy it. I won't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, we flew to the moon in 1996 but still the average user cannot book any trip up there. those payment methods are both, available very sparse and used even more sparse. my point was not if it's technically available or if it exists, it was about whether this is a MUST have NOW which it is not, albeit i agree it's a NICE TO HAVE which is not the same. if it's that important to you just choose any other device with that feature and everyone is happy. i have wireless charging and don't wanna use it and i have NFC for years and only use it since lollipop to fetch settings from google upon clean install, which i can do without also so it's ok to use it but if not, wo what. of course this does not apply to everyone, but then again, those people should and/or will simply opt for another device, no harm done.
BTW i'm looking for years to again have a phone with xenon flash which i had on my nokia N8 but never found one that suits, if any. but because of this i do not complain every day why the "stupid" oems don't make one. it is as it is and what we get is very good and getting better.
why should i pay twice as much for another imperfect phone from sony or samsung and the likes. no. they are all flawed in one or another way, bezels, build qualities, price tag and so on. so if i have to choose i take best value for money which meets my priorities.
sssggg said:
Of course it does. And it's relevant, because NFC payments that are being authorized by using your phone's fingerprint scanner are making things MUCH easier and faster. The more people get used to paying this way, the more self-checkout registers you will see in the wild.
You guys may be laughing now, but last time I bought something from IKEA, they had at least 6 or 8 self-checkout registers open but only one where you could pay in cash. Pretty much the same situation at a nearby supermarket and the hardware store and this is just the beginning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's funny, I went to IKEA this weekend and used a self checkout line and paid with cash. Most if not all self checkout lines accept cash...
Mobile payments have NO influence yet over companies adding self checkout lines!
The thought/point you are trying to make is invalid.
---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------
magnamentis said:
yeah, we flew to the moon in 1996 but still the average user cannot book any trip up there. those payment methods are both, available very sparse and used even more sparse. my point was not if it's technically available or if it exists, it was about whether this is a MUST have NOW which it is not, albeit i agree it's a NICE TO HAVE which is not the same. if it's that important to you just choose any other device with that feature and everyone is happy. i have wireless charging and don't wanna use it and i have NFC for years and only use it since lollipop to fetch settings from google upon clean install, which i can do without also so it's ok to use it but if not, wo what. of course this does not apply to everyone, but then again, those people should and/or will simply opt for another device, no harm done.
BTW i'm looking for years to again have a phone with xenon flash which i had on my nokia N8 but never found one that suits, if any. but because of this i do not complain every day why the "stupid" oems don't make one. it is as it is and what we get is very good and getting better.
why should i pay twice as much for another imperfect phone from sony or samsung and the likes. no. they are all flawed in one or another way, bezels, build qualities, price tag and so on. so if i have to choose i take best value for money which meets my priorities.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Starbucks seems to think otherwise.
http://www.nfcworld.com/2015/07/24/...ks-sales-in-the-us-made-with-mobile-payments/
People *****ed when stores like Walmart, caused problems for the smaller stores, now Amazon is hurting Walmart sales, it never ends. Even so, it was one of the most stupid moves for One Plus to make, was to not support NFC. So much for "Never Settle" and "Flagship Killer of 2016" Even cheap $179 Boost Mobile phones have NFC.
Has anyone considered adapting something like this?:
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...onfcboard-easy-nfc-for-the-internet-of-things
or
http://www.micro4you.com/store/nfc-module.html
One could easily place one of these devices into a case that would carry it on the Oneplus 2.
The first one is an autonomous NFC capable device, so it would seem that you could find a way to use your device to send a message to the device to make a payment via something like bluetooth. The problem (with at least the second) is that it would probably require root to get the drivers and required libs and HAL settings installed into the OS, which would cause Android Pay to fail it's checks, so that would still be a no go. But, if someone in the community had the ability to adapt it into a workable solution, we could lobby Oneplus to include the drivers in a future Oxygen OS release.
I would be interested in assisting in the development of this as a project if a dev who had more knowledge could spear-head it. Certainly, someone who has knowledge to say if it would ever be possible with the requirements of Android Pay to ever work.
As a side note...does anyone besides Samsung Pay use magnetic secure transmission for payments? It seems like a better method in the long term.
I know these aren't for sale anymore since Samsung bought the company, but this seems like it would be doable if any other companies were pursuing it: https://www.looppay.com/products/ Until Samsung bought out this company we would have had the option to buy this device and simply adhere it to a case and use LoopPay to make payments. If this is possible, then surely this or another method would still be a possibility. We just need to find a way to retro-fit it into the current AndroidPay software without failing checks.
By the way, if you are dying to make mobile payments and have a OnePlus 2, you can still find the Looppay device if you scour the internet and the Looppay app is still a free download. It connects to the phone over bluetooth. The downside to the device is that it is a bit large.
Inderjit2332 said:
We know that google introduced new mobile payment system i.e. Android Pay
In order to use android pay we need to Have NFC on our mobile device . One plus 2 which is known as "2016 Flagship killer " Should have NFC so , can we add NFC to OP2 as I have seen two terminals at back of device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
those terminals are for one plus 2 flap cover its not for nfc