Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket).
So I think that htc roms must be available in torrents using public trackers and publish in mininova.org, meganova.org or other torrents sites available. If everyone seed some roms they will always be available for public.
What you think about this?
I am down... just don;t know how to package them up or else I would. I get a new pc this week and have though of making my other one a file store...
Hi,
We must build a private network for Forum users, We can use KDX a multi platform peer to peer client/server app, it is like Hotline.
Slimsaturn: BUY A MAC OR USE LINUX BOYCOTT MICROSOFT
Regards,
Taguapire.
boycott microsoft!
i was thinking of upgrading to Vista. now i changed my mind! u dont piss off your customers that supporting u!
Since i have a hermes and i live for xda, I'm backing up the ftp and i'll store it. Possibly setup ftp access for requested users.
I think we should tell M$ to ........................................KISS OUR A$$..............................OUR...................................."ENTIRE......A$$"...............That's what "I" think............................
That being said........ start backing up the ROMS etc...... we'll figure out how to get them out to users.......... if you can download the things from HTC.......why does M$ have their panties in a bunch?????????? Sheeesssshhhhhh what a bunch of CRY BABIES!!!!!!!!
vpu2....OUT!!!!
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Its the enthusiast that keeps them making money! I am constantly "selling" the merits of M$ powered PPC's to anyone who will listen, I am in the IT industry and have in the last 3 or so years been responsible for over 50 sales of M$ based devices to customers and friends. Because of XDA Dev I will buy a WM device again and again. But if M$ plays the Bully and forces the demise of XDA Dev I will have no reason to by a WM device again. I will then look into other devices such as Sony etc.
I'm sure you are all the same as me, its the the amazing endless customization options that XDA and WM devices offer you that keeps you coming back, without that its no better than any other device.
But sadly Big Corporations don't care, even if we could get a petition signed by 10 000 users they would just shrug and say "So what, there are millions of other users"
What I would like to know is what possible damage can be done by having M$ roms available to M$ customers. Its not like someone can make his own device and then download a rom here. If you use a rom from XDA Dev then you own a M$ device! and you have paid M$ for the rom, Why then are you not allowed to make it better!
No if/when we can get a working Linux solution we can once and for all "dump" M$.
Maybe HTC will bring out a device running Linux in the near future.
Yours in Hope
Jules
As annoying as it is this is the right thing for MS to do to protect themselves.
If it was a little company would you feel less angry?
The only reason you feel angry is due to them being a multi billion dollar corporation beating down on "the little guys" aka us.
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
The way I see it, allowing people to down load different ROM's hurts no one. Al they are trying to do is fix up the defective software. If MS spent more time fixing the defects in their software and less time with lawyers people would not need look around for other ROM's. There is prima facie a very powerful case for a class action against MS for the defects in WM5.
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
ZaJules said:
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Frustrating thing is its not about profit etc... i read that IP (Intellectual Property) law in US states that if you knowingly let ANYONE (not just in US) use your IP without correct license you stand to let anyone do that. Since you have willingly let someone get away with IP infringment you couldnt claim say if the vista source code was used without permission!??
A simple agreement between xda-devs and MS would get passed this but i guess the boffs in the MS law department arent willing to listen. We are possibly the best source of FREE testing and debugging they have!
And may i remind everyone we have ALL paid for a WM license, this is not (as some idiot has said in the "sign the petition" thread) software piracy, it is FREELY available from operators and HTC!
Well, for what I read M$ says that many customers are pissing of their mobile phone providers with roms that are unsupported by that provider.
And for that reason, they say........, roms must not be available here.....
It's fine we can put them elsewhere.
This saves the forum from being shut down or having any legal problems at all. This ensures a long lasting community without having to go underground.
suineg said:
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will pay for an upgrade, but if they don't make it available I have no moral problem of using a hacked version for the Hermes. It's not that M$ will loose any revenue if the product isn't available to buy. Not having VM6 will not make me buy a new phone faster either. As most of us I guess we're stuck with a 2 year contract or so anyhow.
It seems like a really bad thing on MS' side but really its not that bigga deal.
With so many of us here it is easy to build another database at other places and even servers like rapidshare, megaupload etc. They might take them down but they will be back up very quickly. That being said once the network is made all we need to do is get the word around via PM's as to keep it off the boards to keep MS from being able to do anything. Simple
Upload the roms, have in your sig you have links, give out the links in PM's and we are all good to use xda as the great community it always has been
Cheers
vador said:
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket)....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually; it's HTC we should be mad at... If they would release some decently functioning firmware for our devices in the first place, there would not be any need for a ROM archive so we can cook up our own ROM sets...
And i really supect HTC has also triggered this M$ action, because of the appearance of diverse test-ROM's for Trinity and Hermes among others...
Just like someone said before: why do these multi-billion-dollar-bohemoths of companies piss on their customers like this ??? It's truly shocking how they crank out half-working product and kick them on the market, and forget about them instantly (support for existing customers? what's that ...?).
They should better concentrate to work with us, and create a better user-experience for all their customers... But since we have a thing called "world-economy", don't count on it to happen....it never will...
Makes me sad....
ZaJules said:
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not that I like that the ROMs were removed, it was a very helpful service.
But this anti-MS ranting does not help. MS is not the salvation army, and they do (and have to do) what is legally possible to protect their business interests and that of their customers. The free download of one of their OS is not something to can seriously expect them to tolerate in the long run.
Folks:
Wiki's are editable by everybody... especially the place were "links to roms" are.
XDA will fight any m$ attempts to have us remove links to roms. That amounts to web censorship.
Well I had just made an excalibur torrent, but I like hermes better, I should have everything down tomorrow and a torrent ready then, sucks Im not gonna be able to use orb. if you havent I suggest you register at demonoid.com. there are other torrents there you may find interesting.
Related
HI,
realise the pocket pc software are quite expensive... Anyone want to share their license copy, games, utility etc. I guess all can benefit right?... Rather we all purchase on our own.
Or may be we can all chip in to buy.... We can use services like Paypal to remittance money to each other.
Me interested in the Age of Empires Gold Edition. Anyone got a full license one. Nyditot Virtual Display 3.01 ?...
Warezzzz
I'm just speaking for myself here...
I have no major moral objections against copying copyrighted software, but I can also see the point of software companies trying to make a buck. I even co-own a small software company that will be trying to make a buck soon. But please believe me when I say that this is not the reason I'm posting this message.
I would hate to see warez being traded on this system. I've seen what frequent warez trading does to the atmosphere of communities like ours. Before long, professional traders will post requests. People will offer to pay for stuff, warez ftp server addresses 'for-the-day' will be posted, etc. etc. etc.
There's plenty of good forums on Usenet that have plenty of (alt.binaries.)warez posted to them. They have much less good productive atmosphere to waste and they work well.
Omigosh...
Well I don't think warezing software is something terribly wrong (it's not a theft usually), but if somebody likes the software, he should buy it. However, nobody can expect a 18 year old czech student to spend 80 bucks for SSH client he uses once a week.
I think those who use software to make money (companies, managers etc...) should buy the software. Those who just "play" with software and install and deinstall applications 5 times a day can get a warez copy. But if I find a great piece of soft I want to keep (forever), I buy it.
(I don't buy software, I'm a poor student and the software fee doesn't repay itself).
And another thing... I would never trade software here - in public, in a tech forum with guest access...
If you can afford an XDA and the phone contracts that go with it, you can afford the software - most programs are only 10-15 USD. A few like AoE are more, and I can tell you worth the extra money.
Regards
Tim
Basically, i find it rather amusing the comments given. Anyway, my intention is not to spread the so called 'piracy'. The intention was to share files with your so called neighhours. If you think my sharing for example DVD - THe spider man to let the neighhour watch or use, then the whole world must be pracitising that, even your neighhouhood video store is spread 'piracy'. I mean people can always rent it and duplicate at their home right?......
Furthmore, forum is more less like a obtaining information, sharing etc. That's why I use the words like sharing. Wanna to charge those sharing information. If you think this kind actions is bad, I think this forum shall stop hacking the XDA stuff..
I got my new 02 XDA 64MB at US$500 only.... Spend so much $$$ on electronic stuff for what?........ Earniing money is not an easy task. and for you info only a few program is US$10/= Most are more that U$20/=. IF you get 10 how much will it be, and the money is only for 1 version. don;t forget the accessories thats comes with it. If you think u have extra $$$ to spend on this software. Share with it someone who is not as rich as u.
there is loads of free stuff out there if you want it a forum like this is brillant for info but there is a wide range of others out there
My two cents in what seems to become a long thread.
First to answer mac's orignal question. I can't help you (currently :lol: )
In response to XDA developer Peter Poelman's response I want to submit that in order to keep this forum alive we certainly don't need the professional traders.
As for software licensing. I have been/am on both sides. User and author. It's annoying if people just copy whatever they like, especially if they make a lot of money with it.
My justification so far has been. I use 'evaluation copies' for 2 or 3 weeks or so and if it is still in use I buy the software. Is it legal? Probably not? Is this wrong? Probably yes, but I can sleep at night.
We all invent 'our rules' for the world. If you want to be safe, stick with the rules. If not just be prepared to have your [email protected]# kicked every now and then.
Although I sympathise with the argument of being a student, etc etc, that doesn't justify it (nor do my own 'rules' do that). What would you charge someone with 5 children and being a single parent?
And most of the times there are alternatives. For instance in the windows space there is a lot of free software around and some of them are real jewels. If you are curious: www.nonags.com.
Industry responds with free software containing banners and adds, we all hate them, install cracks/patches to get rid of them. Wake up guys. They give it away for free and still we whine. (yes, I hate adds and banners to and I kill them whenever possible). I think we shouldn't whine about initiatives like Palladium if we copying everything we can get our hands on.
Overall my advise is: don't use THIS forum for conducting that behaviour and for the rest live and let live. In my opinion its a forum for undertanding the XDA and its technology. I don't even have one yet ( :evil: ) but I have learned a lot already. One could argue about some of the things tht could be done with the XDA (un-simlocking of accidently locked phones) but it's mainly discussing the device, software and accessoiries.
Being nosy is not a crime.
Having knowledge is not a crime.
But using knowledge could be a crime.
And even the first 2 can be a crime depending on where you live.
Pfffffffffft, I must be PMS'ing. Sorry people :wink:
Robert
I think games should be paid for....
but as far as tools etc goes I think it would be fair to follow the GPL...
You pay for what you make money with.
I'm a frequent visitor to alt.binaries....pocketpc and I've probaly downloaded 700mb or so in pocketpc warez since I bought my XDA...
I have an easynews account which archives newsgroup posts from the last 30 days.
That software I downloaded because I thought it looked interesting; not because it was there. Out of those god knows how many programs I have 12 programs that I keep on my xda at all times... these I have registered:
Battery Pack 2003 <<< really good
Resco Explorer 2003
Lextionary <<< prolly the best dictionary tool
Snails
Marble Worlds
Diamond Mine <<< addictive as hell
Speedball 2 << we love the Amiga !!
Pocket C64 <speaks for itself>
Dockware
Small menu <<< damn good btw
Rhinostats
Truefax
The others I played with for a while and then dumped because they were errr CRAP ? or there were other better alternatives (atleast in the power monitoring area)
Diamond mine I downloaded months ago... and only registered yesterday.
I dont believe in buying stuff I dont need.. and downloading them gives me more time to decide whither I'm going to keep it... or fire it onto a DVDRW and forget about it after a month.
I also have a wares copy of Autocad Studio Max 5 on my computer... $5k to buy in the shops...
most people dont learn this program at Uni (atleast the good ones anyways). Most of them pick up a copy when they are in their early teens and continue to learn with it till they master the techniques. After doing so they go to Uni and get the bit of paper... later on they get a job with a company which has bought a license to the application.
Autocad arent missing out on my license... I'd have never considering paying the $5,000 in the first place.
Some people say that 3D Animation is a craft. I've known people who have been 'learning' it for the past 7 years. Where would Autocad get its budding new business licenses if the 3D warez market dried up and only the large software houses could afford them?
Games are different, you cant make money from them.
I bought StarScape the other day for the PC.
http://www.moonpod.com/English/about_ss.php
download the demo and give it a go
I normaly run games in 1600x1200 or above... but the fact this runs in 640x480 makes no difference.
You might also want to check this site out for some more quality game play... and best of all they are free 8)
http://www.tierraentertainment.com/ (reworked kings Quest I&II)
http://www.back2roots.org/ (shtuff from eons ago)
games from the era of when gaming had gameplay, hand drawn graphics and not just a billion polygons fired at it.
Strange comment from a 3D artist.
software
hi mac
try bear share there is loads of software on there i dont think we should trade games on here i used to use another site for my nokia communicator and it started to trade software and now it gives very little free and has turned into a business venture about selling software and not the product which it was originally meant to help promote amongst fellow users
Well, we'll be relasing a game soon aswell and i would like to think that if people download the demo and they are happy with it, that they would then go on to buy the full version. Its not like the average pocket pc game costs a fortune.
The way I look at it is if people dont buy software, people will stop writing it, I have purchased many games/apps, and am glad i supported the writers of such software. As a result newer and better versions are released, i prime example is Battery Bar along with Journal Bar, fantastic bit of software.
The Cingular forums are now shutting down discussion re the new ROMS ... nice ... just trying to keep us from helping each other out (you would think it would be to their benefit, so folks don't bug their non-existent customer service)
see here for all the gory details.
This is getting more and more ridiculus by the day
Hallllllo M$ and providers. when we buy a device we ALREDY get a licenced WM, what's your problem???????????????????????????????????????
weinson said:
The Cingular forums are now shutting down discussion re the new ROMS ... nice ... just trying to keep us from helping each other out (you would think it would be to their benefit, so folks don't bug their non-existent customer service)
see here for all the gory details.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the thread has been resurrected for the time being...no idea how long that will last though.
This is just like Cingular, I have been told that this update would be out since Dec. by Cingular sales and it never has. We cannot help it if Cingular is so slow on getting updated services out. If they would put more effort in service and less on what they are going to call them selfs maybe they could supply better service. I have 19 cingular accounts and may move all of them if they don't get there act together.
Steven -
Do what my wife did, she is part of the State of FL gov contract on Cingular and she has a fair bit of power in moving accounts so she basically said if you can't support your gear with updated ROMs maybe she would move accounts somewhere else.
I doubt they care but who knows...
so many dumb-ass flashed their phones w/o reading the instructions, bricked their phones and start to call Cingular/ATT for help/repair/replacement. Next thing we know, MS is trying to remove all ROMs, ATT removing thread about new ROMs....
That's y we should make this community go underground, ban the suckers who don't read, link ROMs to rapidshare or other similar sites instead of this site's FTP server.
It's sad to see we have to remove the ROMs but I wouldn't blame MS or ATT for asking XDA-developers to do so.
Oh, btw, if you guys care go sign the petition, show us some supports even if we dont get what we want.
peace.
It's the War on Common Sense. And since all of us are a minority here, ignorance and misinformation prevail.
The main reason Big Business does this is because the executives are a much older generation that is scared and terribly confused by the Internet. So to them, we're all looking to ruin their business by making their phones work in ways they didn't intend for them to be used. What they don't know is, our solutions are much better than the ones they provide (hence the void we're filling by being here, supporting, and working out their phones for free) and if they were to release even just half of the ROMs the XDA community cooked up, they'd have a much happier customer base.
steven814 said:
This is just like Cingular, I have been told that this update would be out since Dec. by Cingular sales and it never has. We cannot help it if Cingular is so slow on getting updated services out. If they would put more effort in service and less on what they are going to call them selfs maybe they could supply better service. I have 19 cingular accounts and may move all of them if they don't get there act together.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cingular/AT&T is pretty much the only carrier with even a _leaked_ rom... so how are you going to say that they're slow? They're actually ahead of the curve, in my opinion.
The 8525 came out in November. I'm pretty sure that there must have been some miscommunication if you recall someone in December told you the Rom would be out tomorrow (or any specific immediate timeframe). "Soon" is not necessarily "one month" or less. I think sometimes we hear and preceive what we WANT to be the truth based on what we actually _did_ hear. I mean, as far as I can tell, HTC just released the 3.3 rom to carriers a matter of weeks ago. Cingular has been working on things other carriers aren't doing, too (PTT, Cingular Video, etc.) So they're putting more into the rom than most of our European counterparts need to (with the exception of video calling... yet.)
I guess what I'm saying is that we, as enthusiasts, expect more than the average customer. And as for Cingular / AT&T, of course they don't want to be providing support for an unofficial and likely unfinished rom. Honestly, having inexperienced and impatient Cingular customers reading about this leaked rom and trying to put it on their devices prematurely would certainly cause a terrible amount of problems. Again... it's _leaked_ and _unofficial_, so they should not feel like they have to support it.
Just my 2/3 of a nickel.
GliTCH82 said:
It's the War on Common Sense. And since all of us are a minority here, ignorance and misinformation prevail.
The main reason Big Business does this is because the executives are a much older generation that is scared and terribly confused by the Internet. So to them, we're all looking to ruin their business by making their phones work in ways they didn't intend for them to be used. What they don't know is, our solutions are much better than the ones they provide (hence the void we're filling by being here, supporting, and working out their phones for free) and if they were to release even just half of the ROMs the XDA community cooked up, they'd have a much happier customer base.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree. I believe the truth is if they released half the roms on here, they're customers WOULD be confused, scared, and lost because they have no idea what rom they should be running. They'd have no idea why something doesn't work perfectly on one rom and better on another. Or why one radio may or may not be better. Think about how many people on here aren't reading everything they need to and bricking or nearly bricking their devices. And these are the ones SEEKING the information. The average 8525 user on Cingular's network isn't quite as interested in this stuff as we are here.
Knowledge is power, but unstable power is chaos.
Think about it.
Xda-Developers is a great source for those seeking to know more about their devices than just its typical uses. But anyone who really wants the knowledge will seek it out and find it (just as we all did). Throwing an incomplete rom at the average lawyer who needs Microsoft Direct Push and not much more is likely to cause more problems than it's worth for AT&Tingular as well as for us (because we'll be the ones trying to clean up the mess).
I think I should sign off on this before I infuriate some of those out there who just want to vent their frustration. And we all know the company with the dollars is always a great target to do that.
Does't surprise me in the slightest.
I am sure many OEMs and phone companies are sick of people bricking their phones and claiming warranties (of course they never admit to using cooked ROMs or even trying to upgrade them - 'Just woke up one morning and it wouldn't boot up').
I enjoy this forum too but don't tell me it doesn't encourage people to do things they shouldn't, and are not willing to take responsiblity for.
esseff said:
I enjoy this forum too but don't tell me it doesn't encourage people to do things they shouldn't, and are not willing to take responsiblity for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to disagree with that statement... I wasnt aware that giving warnings to the users that flashing their phone could brick it and that they need to read and make sure they fully understand what they are doing before they do it was encouragement... I know that when i came to this board and saw the warnings about flashing cooked roms it freaked me out.. i was registered for several months before i ever made a post, spent countless hours reading all the threads to make sure i fully understood my device before i did anything to it.. its the people that dont read and brick their phone that want to come back and blame us for their mistake.. This is a developers board and quite frankly alot of us go out of the way of development to help people in need... we especially go above and beyond any kind of help that you would recieve from your provider
My 2c
I have to agree with shogunmark. I know I made very sure I read every last thread and wiki before I attempted anything as rash as upgrading a Radio stack. This was because of my fear of bricking the unit, because so many people warned it could. I was even willing to endure the mass "RTFM" and "RTFW" flaming if i wanted to make sure I understood everything correctly before risking my device.
I believe the largest part of this community are users that gather here in the spirit of sharing the knowledge about the device to encourage greater growth of the community- the more people, the more mods & hacks & cracks and experiences will become part of the knowledge base.
yet im still trying to figure out how "MAY BRICK YOUR DEVICE" warnings are encouraging...
Come on guys!
Sure there are countless warinings but simply the enthusiasm and excitement amongst the experienced crew, when a new possibliity appears (GPS, WM6, AKU this, AKU that) causes less experience people to get caught up in it.
I'm not for one minute discouraging XDA developing, just TAKE RESPONSIBLILITY IF YOU BRICK YOUR DEVICE AND DON'T GO CRYING TO THE OEM OR TELCO FOR WARANTY. Pay for your mistake and buy another.
I have seen, on this forum people advising others to go back to their supplier with bricked devices and try to get a warranty. It is hard for the supplier to argue with someone who says their device 'Just stopped working', when infact they bricked it, and in the spirit of good customer relations they often replace it. Why wouldn't suppliers be negative toward forums like these when they are placed in this situation.
Sigh... I've been told that HTC's single greatest returned device is the Wizard followed closely by the Hermes. Reason: bricked.
We post the warnings, but plenty of people don't take the time to fully understand then brick their devices anyway (hermes is especially bad in this respect). Then they try to return them.
In many ways, this is the manufacturer fault b/c they are trying to thwart users who try to upgrade or change their devices. Hermes development feels like spy vs. spy sometimes as we crack something and then the next bootloader/radio bootloader comes out. Consequently pre sspl hermes flashing was damn near rocket science. Problems were rampant. Heck, I even saw one poster try to flash the original signed_nbh into the OS area with the 1.01MFG bootloader
They're all gonna try it. There's no minimum IQ required to be a member here.
Ideally, we need to find a way to bring any HTC device back to life from brick status. It's only corrupted memory after all. If the correct bytes are written, the software works. When I did SE phone hacking, there were such devices. Because of this, users with bricked phones could take them to their nearest SE phone center and they would re-flash and un-brick (for a price of course).
This ridiculous swapping of bricked devices is what needs to change. Posters need to take financial responsibility for phones they brick. HTC needs to make their hardware flashing system available to Operators at phone centers.
Unfortunately, this won't be the case. Instead, they'll go after us because they can see an ROI impact in terms of bricks. What they can't see is the intangible increase in sales that we stimulate or the intangible loss of future revenue that shutting us down represents.
Sign the petition. Get your friends to sign it. Get it posted on other forums. Get it into the news. Operators and M$ need to be able to see this intangible.
on the other hand with the hermes and returns... we just got to a point to where we could brick them less than a month ago... most of the returns before then was by manufacturer fault, i know this because i was one of them, i had a ton of bad blocks in the wrong spot....
its to bad we dont have an easy rom kitchen for these.. something that would make it damn near impossible for the person who cant read to brick their device.. i dont know.. im tired and going back to bad, my post isnt making much sense to me right now
but i do agree with you sleuth!
Wow... check out the attitude here...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294365
Kinda proves my point.
Add a success story here - mainly because I am competent enough to read and ask the right questions when there was vague information.
I am not new to flashing/modding, but the Hermes definately takes it to a new level.
The difference with me, should I ever brick my device - I would just deal with it. I came here with the understanding that the tools available to us come with an increased risk should you not actually understand what you are doing. You need to be aware that you should own up to the possible mistakes and not try to send a bricked device back for warranty....
Two individuals who make this place so great - Pof and Sleuth. Pof has done such a great job with the wiki and his tools - all you need to do is take a few days to read about the device and the steps you need to make. Sleuth brings a different element (and his programs) to the forums and has the patience to point questions to the right areas of the wiki.
My advice - if you plan on unlocking/upgrading take at least a week and read the wiki. Make sure you have all the pieces needed to complete what you want to do. Sync your device and backup all your info - be prepared to hard reset and start from scratch - twice in some cases.
Set aside plenty of time that your phone will be down during this process.
This site is by far the best there is - it's a shame that people rush into things some times.
Sleuth255 said:
Ideally, we need to find a way to bring any HTC device back to life from brick status. It's only corrupted memory after all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC should put JTAG out in its new models
Seriously, it's a big flaw that every official ROM image overwrites th bootloader, even with the same version. The whole firmware history teaches that the bootloader should not be touched by end user.
So, the solution is to make custom ROMs flashable by parts, w/o affecting the bootloader. This should prevent bricking... does not revive existing bricks though...
But your overall point is good: manufacturers get angry because of a lot of returns, and care shell be taken to calm them down.
on another note about the cingular boards... i got banned there was a thread about the lack of good moderation in the HTC board over there, i spoke my piece and got banned... it wasnt even bad, just offered some suggestions.. so much for contructive criticism and free speech..
It makes me so very sad to see such fantastic projects that people put countless hours into get dumped onto sites like Rapidshare not just because they suck, are often temporary links that disappear, your customers have to go through ridiculous captchas and waits and download and speed limits, but also largely because these companies benefit commercially (ads and selling premium accounts) from your work probably more, I'd wager, than you benefit from donations from people who use your work and manage to give you a few bucks (wild guess).
I don't want to be sad anymore. Just so happens I've got space and bandwidth to spare. If you want me to mirror your Raphael rom, just ask (though I may ask you first) and I'll give you a deep link to post which will look like this -- http://mirror.blownfuze.org/[the rom's filename]
People click it, up pops the download dialog, Save, bam the thing downloads fast with no ads, no donation requests, no nothing. And if you get curious I can let you see how many people download your rom relative to the other roms I'm hosting and where these people are coming from geographically. That's icing on the cake; my primary purpose is to give back to the community without using paypal.
Three prerequisites -- it's gotta be intended for the Raphael, in English and you're a senior member.
Shoot me a message.
I second this motion!!
d0ugie gets it!
Rapidshare drives me nutz...
PS. Thanks Doug.
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
A BitTorrent pool might be a better option. But that would be dependent on people staying active as well.
i agree...rapidshare is bull$hit!!! and PayPal is a joke as well...help a brother out...
Paypal? Where did that come from?
I forgot to mention that I thought the thread title was a threat when I first read it...I read:
"Stop using rapidshare!! I'll mirror your MOM."
@d0ugie
Great idea though it ONLY makes sense if your mirror is stable.
Hope you know what you are buying into it?!
I have no bandwidth problem either and mirrored 2 Tilt and 2 Raph ROMeOS's... counts go up easy in the 100s of Gigabit/month (almost like on a xxx-site).
Just wanted to make you aware.
Sleuth255 said:
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
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Hey, a bit of topic but is there any chance there will be any public roms from you sleuth? i id love to see what you've been up to since the kaiser roms =)
+1, Informative
tyguy said:
@d0ugie
Great idea though it ONLY makes sense if your mirror is stable.
Hope you know what you are buying into it?!
I have no bandwidth problem either and mirrored 2 Tilt and 2 Raph ROMeOS's... counts go up easy in the 100s of Gigabit/month (almost like on a xxx-site).
Just wanted to make you aware.
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Click to collapse
Hmm. 100Gb/month for romeos links, huh.
Well here's the setup: My own server (blownfuze.org) has a modest link to my ISP. The server and its connection are very stable and sturdy; I know what I'm doing with Linux machines and I've had the link for years without any interruption that I was aware of. On one of the ISP's servers I have a shell account with a 2GB quota and no explicit bandwidth quota, speed or cumulative. The cabs I host on my server and even in peak hours it has not been out of control, not enough that the people I serve websites for with the same machine have said anything regarding latency -- even with HostnameLookups turned on. The radios and roms however I put on my shell and when someone downloads a rom or radio from my server my server redirects them with a meta refresh file to the file on the ISP's server. Based on my trial run over the past month or whatever with my site, guaging how much traffic I'd sting the ISP with on their server with these rom mirrors, I think it's a safe bet my ISP won't object. I'm a good customer, we have a good relationship and they're a strong enough outfit to handle a customer giving out files for people to mess with their phones.
So yes there are now two points of failure, my server and the ISP cutting me off, but I can dodge both problems by, if my server fails, changing the A record on my mirror host on my domain to my office server (we have a ton of bandwidth we don't need) or if the shell thing becomes a dealbreaking issue I can just change the refresh tags on my server to point at my office.
I believe there is a "within reason" understanding in terms of the shell bandwidth usage as this ISP is connected to multiple bluechip telcos and even pumping out dozens of gigabytes a month wouldn't piss them off -- in my estimation. Again I've been a good and profitable customer of theirs for a long time (several years?) and doubt they'd just pull the plug on me but if they did I'd simply redirect those meta refreshes to the server in my office until I negotiated something either with my ISP or another company and would not leave rom authors just hanging. So by having the links go to my server I have control over where they are directed and I also enjoy the bliss of datamining my Apache logs to see whose rom is getting downloaded by how many people and from where those people are located. That's fun to me.
In light of your own experience however it would be prudent of me to have a chat with my ISP to make sure they're cool with this so that I don't make major commitments to XDA folk and then fail them suddenly -- even though I take the basic measures to keep my pages from being googled and botted and can get aggressive with mod rewrites and other Apache tricks to enforce only letting XDA people (not ppcgeeks and strangers from search engines and such), hits with xda in the initial referrer entry, download anything from my server (which triggers the fast shell download).
Nevertheless, for now, I am going to continue to proceed with caution, contact the ISP soon, and take it from there.
Thanks tyguy.
As long as no one uploads on rapidshare, then i'm good. 15 minutes between downloads is KILLER =(
Just wanted to make you aware of the issue d0ugie.
I too have no problems with my host and bandwidth and you seem to have some internet / web hosting experience but as example when i hosted ROMeOS2_150_5_ENG_20759_041208_conFUZEd.zip which was a pre-final it was downloaded 190 times during one day with a file size of 78.78 MB on the server, looking at the start and exit counts assumes some used download managers. Just be careful and get the ducks in line up front.
Let me give you some help to calculate:
Just use Windows "Start" - "Run" - "Calc", take the thumb of your left hand and pick your nose with the index finger of the right hand and make a good gestimate of popular ROM and theme demands and go from there.
Some help, that chickensh*t <essentials> packed behind my "ATT Fuze NOOBs only - Little setup guide. " started 14-12-2008, 05:02 PM is 20.20 MB was downloaded 276 times while the thread was viewed 2,179 times. Not sure if you always can gestimate 10% download ratio over views but ...
Don't wanna be a nerd but don't like get others burned as well.
How about a Bittorrent pool like someone suggested? That is the best idea IMHO. Torrents are always fast and worth it.
That was my first thought but P1Tator didn't take kindly to my post on the subject. Though when a major release gets going there could be added layers of redundancies with multiple trackers, you gotta have someone who knows what they're doing to start this, you got to have people maintain this, you need trackers on a reliable server like xda's and when you do that there must be some careful monitoring over what torrents are hosted by XDA-connected (or even just loosely-afiliated) trackers, who has access to it, which authors are trusted not to include anything sketchy so that an old copy of WMWifirouter or a cracked version of BeeLineGPS doesn't slip its way through the cracks. Not easy to delete an in-the-wild bittorrent share as you can delete a thread.
The word bittorrent itself starts fires. XDA needs to keep a low profile when it comes to its members behaving themselves and when you've got people messing with Microsoft's software and rebranding it as their own and then distributing it over a notorious method it could get ugly.
From a practical standpoint, a bittorrent download takes a while to get warmed up; a direct link from a solid mirror does not. Users have to have an additional client installed. A lot of us do already and those who don't can figure it out but we'd need more how-tos. From the serving standpoint or an additional more complicated database thing you'd find on other bittorrenting sites it just doesn't sound feasible especially when you have some people out there like me who can donate bandwidth (I'm vetting myself to make sure I can do this reliably). We're talking what, 70-100MB files here that people put a ton of time into and people who use these files shell out several hundered bucks for their phone and another hundred a month for their bill. Bandwidth is cheap and if we get people fired up a bit we can figure out how to host our own files without Rapidshare and friends or bittorrent.
Though I still like the idea. Certainly more than rapidshare.
I wrote my ISP a thoughtful letter to see how much is too much in terms of giving out bandwidth for mirroring. When they get back to me I'll get back to you all. If they say yeah sure go ahead, at least for the Raphael forums, problem solved. Mostly.
Kraize said:
How about a Bittorrent pool like someone suggested? That is the best idea IMHO. Torrents are always fast and worth it.
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d0ugie said:
That was my first thought but P1Tator didn't take kindly to my post on the subject.
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P1Tater not P1Tator.
All kidding aside. You have actually hit the nail on the head. Bit Torrents are frowned upon due to the large amount of publicity these create. Noone has ever said this but think about it. We strip shipped roms and tear them to shreds. We also take shipped apps not meant for "all" devices and port them to God knows what. We even have ported other OS to a WM device never meant for anything but WM. Plus, having a cooked rom come up in a torrent search/finder beside WAREZ and other files with virus' inside is not the publicity XDA is looking for. Not trying to come off all high and mighty, just want to keep XDA smooth and as trouble free as possible so we can continue to rip apps, port roms to other devices, and have our wonder developers continue to devlop apps for our devices without having to go to some sort of "store" (cough cough iStore) and buy every app that we want to install on our phones. Please understand, I just want to keep XDA as smooth and as trouble free as I possibly can without any "negative" publicity. That's all.
P1Tater said:
P1Tater not P1Tator.
All kidding aside. You have actually hit the nail on the head. Bit Torrents are frowned upon due to the large amount of publicity these create. Noone has ever said this but think about it. We strip shipped roms and tear them to shreds. We also take shipped apps not meant for "all" devices and port them to God knows what. We even have ported other OS to a WM device never meant for anything but WM. Plus, having a cooked rom come up in a torrent search/finder beside WAREZ and other files with virus' inside is not the publicity XDA is looking for. Not trying to come off all high and mighty, just want to keep XDA smooth and as trouble free as possible so we can continue to rip apps, port roms to other devices, and have our wonder developers continue to devlop apps for our devices without having to go to some sort of "store" (cough cough iStore) and buy every app that we want to install on our phones. Please understand, I just want to keep XDA as smooth and as trouble free as I possibly can without any "negative" publicity. That's all.
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Sleuth255 said:
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
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Well said and I agree with both of you. Rapidshare may not be for everyone but it does trick for right now.
I understand the hesitation with torrents and not wanting too much attention, but let's face it...Microsoft knows about this site, HTC knows about this site. Torrents aren't going to be any more negative publicity than it's gotten in the past about the FTP, and that was mostly because the files were directly linked to the site.
Hey I hear you with the c'mon argument.
Yes Microsoft and HTC know about us. I've gotten hundreds of hits from proxy server hosts under .microsoft.com downloading everything on my site and HTC has gotten plenty of love letters from us as well as petition websites brewed by XDA people. We don't really pose a threat to Microsoft though one could argue we have a tepidly adversarial relationship with HTC for our criticism of them and our attempts to generate negative publicity against them as well as our attempts to pressure them to do business differently (like with the Kaiser video driver saga). Though XDA may be some server in the Netherlands, we comprise XDA as we are clumped together in the minds of The Man when we do something The Man doesn't like so we, thanks to the likes of P1Tater and other volunteers, have to spend an enormous amount of time cleaning up not just spam and dumb threads but making sure no one posted Skyfire when it was recently in private beta and so on. We're on self-warez-patrol, defcon 1.
You add extracted and redesigned software with different branding artwork, possibly copyrighted software, operating systems, leaked or hacked drivers etc on top of that and you have a large happy community such as ours that is operating in the gray area. We're more good to MS and HTC than we are bad but if they so choose to exercise it they have power over XDA, power to kill XDA, and we must act accordingly. People can post cabs and links but there is some vague protection for XDA, sort of like Slashdot but with attachments, as those are posted by individuals and are therefore sort of owned by the poster not XDA and XDA with their moderators tries to operate in a manner that projects an air of good faith /in addition to/ helping Microsoft and HTC as we are a resource for ways they can produce better products. We're pretty harlmess -- why would HTC care if someone else cleans up after them with GPS driver fixes? Cheapest thing for them to do is copy /our/ work.
In the event of Microsoft or HTC or Opera or whoever developing a major grievance with something that goes down here and sends XDA a cease and decist letter that XDA cannot afford to defend themselves against and must comply with, demanding XDA to take down threads containing *, when you've got bittorrent in the mix as you're suggesting XDA loses the ability to comply swiftly and effectively with such a demand to the satisfaction of these potentially litigous companies if satisfying them includes pulling the plug fully on a proliferation of a file that made its debut here if it's floating around in bittorrent and making its way to the high traficked torrent portals with traces back to XDA.
No one cares about FTP and for these purposes no one even knows what FTP is. Rapidshare (or good samaritan mirror operations like mine) is not on the MPAA's hitlist either. But the reputation of bittorrent, even though those who defend bittorrent adamantly cite that it's great for kosher stuff too like Linux (and us), makes it not an option for XDA as XDA does, again, to some extent operate in a gray area and does not have the resources to do so with the audacity of providing bittorrent solutions in the event it needs to pay legal bills. XDA may not even know how gray our gray area is, doubt we have a lawyer on retainer. I doubt most lawyers would know the answers anyway. Unchartered territory (but gray territory). So XDA has to assume an MO of paranoia. Blending in bittorrent to XDA either with an XDA-sanctioned and maintained portal/tracker or just encouraging users with wikis and such on how to set up their own tracker when they release their own rom, given that there are other options, is bad for business. Now me I am not even going to bother researching how legal these roms are; I am cool with my ISP and I'll assume the risk by putting them on hosts directly connected to me and my identity but you won't find these roms on XDA's ftp server probably not just because their more than 1MB but because they are sketchy in nature. XDA can barely pay for bandwidth with these banners ads that most of us don't see with adblock and the small stream of donations. Where's XDA going to get $20K one day if **** hits the fan? Nowhere. Just because we've got thousands of members here, often extremely talented and good-hearted people, does not make us immune from total destruction and bittorrent gives that doomsday scenerio an elevetated probability.
XDA's doomed at best to walk on eggshells. Bittorrent is a four letter word. XDA cannot, in my estimation, live with it; certainly not when XDA can live without it.
motionmind said:
I understand the hesitation with torrents and not wanting too much attention, but let's face it...Microsoft knows about this site, HTC knows about this site. Torrents aren't going to be any more negative publicity than it's gotten in the past about the FTP, and that was mostly because the files were directly linked to the site.
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d0ugie said:
No one cares about FTP and for these purposes no one even knows what FTP is
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All of the rom files used to be hosted on the FTP, that's all I mentioned that for...were you around for that? Just don't remember how long ago that debacle was.
Also, I know there are invite-only networks and we already have to be a member of xda-dev to download locally hosted files, so what about a private p2p setup?
jonteponte said:
Hey, a bit of topic but is there any chance there will be any public roms from you sleuth? i id love to see what you've been up to since the kaiser roms =)
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Yeah same here.
Is there like a record for the longest written post in a forum?
Guys, theres a movement in the community to get rid of this site which sells access to pirated paid apps. Now, this isnt to promote the site, this is to get rid of it. Please go here and sign the petition. All the information is there. Support app developers who work hard to make our phones better by helping to get rid of these pirates.
http://bit.ly/bkKwaZ
Support your community!
Also, if you follow this link: http://twitter.com/Mini_Lee/status/20682622042 it will take you to the tweet i put out with the petition link directly in it. So if you're one of those people with thousands of followers on twitter, send it out!
Done, and tweeting it.
Signed - thank you to whoever started this petition!
Been following this on Twitter today. Retweeted protests, and just signed this. I'll be honest, I pirate a lot of stuff, but I wouldn't pirate from a hard working Android dev. If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
OP updated with link to RT'able tweet link.
Kusotare, what do you intend to do with the results of the petition?
I checked, their domain is registered through GoDaddy and hidden by DomainsByProxy. I sent an e-mail to DomainsByProxy to see whether they actually respond to information about illegal activity. It has been my experience that such complaints to GoDaddy will go unanswered but e-mail is cheap so I hit them up too.
But in all honesty, this will be a minor hiccup, if it gets them taken down at all. The overall IP block is owned by Worldstream out of the Netherlands (according to the RIPE branch of IANA), although some tools report the actual location as Portugal. If you run a reverse IP lookup (try a good one like YouGetSignal), the web server at the same IP is also host to a bunch of Iranian spam and piracy blogs under the vatanblog.com domain, so my guess is whomever owns the server (which isn't going to be the same as those running the network where the IP block is managed) isn't going to be too worried about the results of a petition.
But I suppose it can't hurt to hit up Worldstream, so I've e-mailed them as well.
P.S. Phromik, speaking as a software developer who has been victimized by piracy, you're a hypocritical tool.
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
s15274n said:
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
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Really no need for him to roll in here and brag about his piracy, is there?
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
Except he's not bragging... he's being honest.
srqt said:
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
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Click to collapse
GoDaddy are the domain registrant. The actual website is hosted on a dedicated server provided by worldstream.nl so you want to be contacting [email protected] as well as the Dutch anti-piracy outfit BREIN at [email protected]
It's interesting to note that the same dedicated server is being used to host several other warez sites including some pornography forums. I'm pretty sure neither the server provider or BREIN would be happy about these.
It's interesting to note that within the last 12 hours androidplayground has been taken offline. However I suspect this was done by the owner rather than any takedown notice. He has already set his twitter account to private and one of the last tweets he sent was about having a new server ready.
To Bad google isn't jumping on this. I mean you see his lame comment on nearly every app that comes out in the market.
What confuses me is why would somebody send him money to become a member knowing he/she is a thief in the first place.
The results of the petition will be sent to the domain registrar, the host and paypal in a three way attack. If all goes well, they'll lose their domain, hosting and ability to charge people through paypal simultaneously. I have already emailed all three of the companies to let them know about the petition.
So yes, while it may be a losing battle in the long run to fight piracy, at least we can do what we can. Signing a petition or firing off an email takes the same amount of time it does to write a post here, so why not help out?
Response from Worldstream:
Hi,
The website has been taken down earlier today.
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Dirk Vromans
Technical Engineer
Worldstream C.V.
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Although from one of the earlier posts it sounds like the site owner was already planning to move it anyway -- which is what I was getting at earlier. The best you can hope for is to just go chasing him around endlessly.
I saw the same crap over and over in the Palm Treo software world...
The new licensing system might help. =]
Phromik said:
...If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
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Whatever....
Without defending what I consider to be a low-life, who spams every review on the Market, most pirates wouldn't really buy most products they steal, just as most people don't normally pirate stuff they genuinely want and like.
There are a ton of pirate sources for the iPhone, yet good developers do pretty well in the App store.
The only developers whining are the ones who have a crappy product and blame the nebulous evil of "piracy" for their lack of success.
This is outrageous!! Piracy should be free.
I mean that completely tongue-in-cheek, as I spend a LOT of money on android software. I admit I don't hate piracy in general, as a sort of try-before-you-buy system, but charging money for stolen goods is evil. These people are scum.
Former AndroidPlayground.net user
I used to use this site because I just assumed that they had an agreement with the developers. I couldn't even imagine the audacity it would take to charge people for pirated software.
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
NOT trying to justify it, but it is something to consider.
jswanstr said:
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
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I'm just guessing, but so far all data indicates that iPhone users seem to be significantly more willing to pay for apps. I'm hoping this changes as the Android becomes more mainstream.
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
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IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.