Related
Once a phone is opened up how long does it typically take before we see custom roms like CM7?
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
Every phone has it's own dev. Who knows. It happens if or when it happens.
Is it possible to get an official CM7 and not just a port?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmvCpR45LKA
now
THERE IS NO ETA. IT WILL BE DONE WHENEVER IT IS READY
If you want it quicker do it yourself and see how its done
(caps is cruise control for cool )
I think Devs are working hard on that.
tjjensen23 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmvCpR45LKA
now
THERE IS NO ETA. IT WILL BE DONE WHENEVER IT IS READY
If you want it quicker do it yourself and see how its done
(caps is cruise control for cool )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Off topic: That was the coolest video ever.
On topic I'm betting we will see some CM7 roms (very buggy ones) within the next couple weeks.
I was just over at their forums. I see an old post that was revived asking for an atrix version, but no other threads. so who knows...
Also when it is done on the At&t atrix, will international users be able to flash it when our bootloader is unlocked or will we have to wait for another port?
There's already a Tegra phone out in the wild running CM7.. oh wait i have one sitting right next to my Atrix. That should make it a decent bit easier to get CM7 working on the Atrix.
This thread should be deleted - the cardinal rule of CM is... do NOT ask for etas!!!!!!!!!! It will be ready whenever its ready...
Devs are working hard on that.
I believe these kinds of threads are VERY necessary...it reminds the devs that we are still wanting CM7...if nobody wants it nobody would post...so this is a way to push the devs....supply and demand =)
I'm not trying to step on anyone's foot, but i just don't understand why u guys get mad simply cuz a guy is asking for an ETA, you never know, maybe one of us may be almost done porting CM7...
Mafisometal said:
I believe these kinds of threads are VERY necessary...it reminds the devs that we are still wanting CM7...if nobody wants it nobody would post...so this is a way to push the devs....supply and demand =)
I'm not trying to step on anyone's foot, but i just don't understand why u guys get mad simply cuz a guy is asking for an ETA, you never know, maybe one of us may be almost done porting CM7...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you mean.. you like having a waiter drop by your table every 5mins to see if you are done with your meal because there is a queue forming outside the restaurant? Because what you're saying is basically the same thing.
Devs are doing this on their free time. They are not obligated to do so and even less so to tell whiny little brats when they will be done with it.
IF they're done with it. THEN they're done with it. All this asking for eta will just piss them off and waste valuable time that could have been spent dev-ing instead of replying dumb posts.
lunzi88 said:
So you mean.. you like having a waiter drop by your table every 5mins to see if you are done with your meal because there is a queue forming outside the restaurant? Because what you're saying is basically the same thing.
Devs are doing this on their free time. They are not obligated to do so and even less so to tell whiny little brats when they will be done with it.
IF they're done with it. THEN they're done with it. All this asking for eta will just piss them off and waste valuable time that could have been spent dev-ing instead of replying dumb posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The devs, much like yourself, are in no way forced to read this kind of thread if it bothers them so much.
_kansei_ said:
The devs, much like yourself, are in no way forced to read this kind of thread if it bothers them so much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh not at all. Somebody has to do the grunt work right?
lunzi88 said:
So you mean.. you like having a waiter drop by your table every 5mins to see if you are done with your meal because there is a queue forming outside the restaurant? Because what you're saying is basically the same thing.
Devs are doing this on their free time. They are not obligated to do so and even less so to tell whiny little brats when they will be done with it.
IF they're done with it. THEN they're done with it. All this asking for eta will just piss them off and waste valuable time that could have been spent dev-ing instead of replying dumb posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wouldn't it be MORE of a waste of time complaining instead of using that time developing? If people are asking for an ETA that means THEIR INTERESTED...if not, then it would be a big waste of time for you and many other developers investing time and money on something people do not want.
I'm a game developer and i go through the same issues as many developers have here. I don't complain from "potential" customers asking for an ETA...it's a little rude even though asking consistently for an ETA is even ruder. Remember those guys asking for an ETA may be donating money to the developer that completes the Rom, so why shun away the people that ultimately may pay for your living.
I'm pretty sure some and possibly most developers here have aspirations to do this sort of thing as a living; and if so, learn to deal with and grow up, you'll be asked for an ETA numerous times in the business world.
your analogy makes no sense to the topic. If i were you i would sit and think a little before saying the first thought that comes to mind.
Mafisometal said:
Wouldn't it be MORE of a waste of time complaining instead of using that time developing? If people are asking for an ETA that means THEIR INTERESTED...if not, then it would be a big waste of time for you and many other developers investing time and money on something people do not want.
I'm a game developer and i go through the same issues as many developers have here. I don't complain from "potential" customers asking for an ETA...it's a little rude even though asking consistently for an ETA is even ruder. Remember those guys asking for an ETA may be donating money to the developer that completes the Rom, so why shun away the people that ultimately may pay for your living.
I'm pretty sure some and possibly most developers here have aspirations to do this sort of thing as a living; and if so, learn to deal with and grow up, you'll be asked for an ETA numerous times in the business world.
your analogy makes no sense to the topic. If i were you i would sit and think a little before saying the first thought that comes to mind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think majority of the devs here are doing this for a living, more for interest. I personally don't do any dev-ing so I'm not even sure if I'm right to say this but as a game developer, you yourself have admitted that it rude of people to consistently asking for eta.
But if I were doing this for my personal interest. It won't really matter if nobody wants my work. Because I would be doing it because I wanted to, not because I'm hoping to earn a living from this. I would be pretty god damn pissed every time people were to ask for etas especially if I didn't owe them anything.
Rather then to ask the devs to grow up and "deal" with it. Why not ask those people to simply sit tight and wait?
The analogy is apt, you just probably need a few more cycles to process it.
You mentioned that it is good of people to create these threads so that devs will know that there are still interest in porting over CM7. So similarly, would it be good if someone were to come over to your table every 5mins to ask if you are done with your meal because there are people queuing outside? Think it through. 1) People wants cm7 so they keep creating eta request threads. 2)people are queuing outside the restaurant so the waiter keeps coming over to see if you're done.
That analogy wasn't correct at all.
You've said yourself, they don't cater to us. They do it for fun and because they're interested. I'm a waiter, and it's our job to bother you. We're required to make you as comfy as possible during your dinner or lunch. We're required to get you whatever you need. Within a small amount of time while doing the same for other tables. Even if it doesn't look like you need anything we have to bother the crap out of you. Regardless of queue or not.
Devs are not waiters. They don't have to cater to anyone. But at least the devs will know that we're interested in their work by asking ETA's. I can understand if the whole forum was crying for CM7, but one or two people can't hurt anything, and biting their heads off and throwing bad analogies around won't help anyone.
tjjensen23 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmvCpR45LKA
now
THERE IS NO ETA. IT WILL BE DONE WHENEVER IT IS READY
If you want it quicker do it yourself and see how its done
(caps is cruise control for cool )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Video is hilarious lol
Guys I know I am a newbie on this forum but come on... The OP isn't asking for an actual ETA, hes just asking the community if through past experience anyone has a gauge on how long it takes for a Cm7 port to pop up after a bootloader gets unlocked. How is this not a valid question?
Just like on any forum I am sure it is tiresome for the senior members to see the same questions being rehashed with different variables inserted over and over. At the same time however, his subject made it perfectly clear what he was asking for, why bother to even open this thread if you don't want to constructively answer his question?
All of you were new to the scene at one time try to remember that.
In my case I have been wondering the same thing, while I have spent plenty of time programming in .net languages I haven't done any work like this before so I am struggling to wrap my head around the steps needed to port a rom over. (might just dive in myself and take a look though!)
Anyhow guys my intention is not to offend anyone just remind them that we are all not of the same tenure in this android / dev world.
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
good point. Many think rom development is like washing a car..little bit of this little bit of that..dry off. First build the damn car, test to make sure it runs...then wash it..and poeple still tell you the car is dirty!!! sheesh...
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
Testified.
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk
Sad Panda said:
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Most of the XDA twelve year olds don't know that. The OP of their favorite colored ROM is a god like "developer" to them, when in reality they are just wizards at cut, copy, paste, zip, unzip, ASCII images, ****ty changelogs, etc...
I said most though, not all. And I agree, they all put hard work into it, so appreciate it or just stay quiet and move on.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Agreed
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Couldn't agree more.
Sent from my infected Eternity EVO 3D using xda premium
Sad Panda said:
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I gotta agree with this. There's very little "development" happening, and a lot of "cooking" happening. We need to have two separate sections. One for actual home grown roms, and one for things made in a kitchen.
I don't eat copypasta
I'm okay with some of the cooks as they add another element to let users find more combinations of roms bc not all the ones hard dev'd have everything you want or sometimes you would like to add a certain customization from another rom.
Now as long as proper credit is given in the OP all is good. Android is open source and sharing moss is what its all about. I personally don't think you should even ask to use polar mode long as u give the proper credit to them to begin with.
The issue I have is when people cook a ROM and then give zero credit to anyone claiming they did everything.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well its hard to say good rom to someone if their rom is buggy. We have to post feedback and let them know if there's any bugs. Not to be harsh and say your rom sucks but to say this, this and this doesn't work.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
gmfeny said:
Well its hard to say good rom to someone if their rom is buggy. We have to post feedback and let them know if there's any bugs. Not to be harsh and say your rom sucks but to say this, this and this doesn't work.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agree. this is another reason why chefs are kinda annoying. they can't really provide support on a rom because they didnt make it. and with all those things pasted in it's harder to find whats making the problem.
ummm... i haven't seen one thread on here created to specifically slam or complain about a rom.
BUT that being said, i still have seen a lot of complaining about other crap... it gets old. there is no purpose in starting a thread simply to complain. it contributes nothing to anybody else.
crpercodani said:
I don't eat copypasta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hahaha
sgt. slaughter said:
I'm okay with some of the cooks as they add another element to let users find more combinations of roms bc not all the ones hard dev'd have everything you want or sometimes you would like to add a certain customization from another rom.
Now as long as proper credit is given in the OP all is good. Android is open source and sharing moss is what its all about. I personally don't think you should even ask to use polar mode long as u give the proper credit to them to begin with.
The issue I have is when people cook a ROM and then give zero credit to anyone claiming they did everything.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I agree. Open source is fantastic, and frankly as I see it nearly everything should be open source. But like you said just because we develop something and open the source to be read, used, improved, etc does not mean it is at all ok to call it yours, or take my license agreement, or source citing out so you can be the cool developer who took features from 5 roms to give people what they want. That is no different than stealing my patio furniture that is left out and I let other people sit in, ****ing bastards!
The thing with open source, if I can use an analogy to describe my thoughts and personal feelings:
Scientists will study and develop experiments that help prove something or develop a new technological process, or invent something new will keep things to themselves during the initial startup but soon after the entire community knows what they are working on, their journals are made public, their papers are published to be critiqued, reviewed, improved upon. Sources are always made to stay, and credit is given and kept through every part, and every future discovery. If we didn't have this technological advances would be slow as balls.
efan3719 said:
agree. this is another reason why chefs are kinda annoying. they can't really provide support on a rom because they didnt make it. and with all those things pasted in it's harder to find whats making the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another perfect point. How do you support and fix bugs if it isn't yours and have no idea what you are doing?
cobraboy85 said:
ummm... i haven't seen one thread on here created to specifically slam or complain about a rom.
BUT that being said, i still have seen a lot of complaining about other crap... it gets old. there is no purpose in starting a thread simply to complain. it contributes nothing to anybody else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats what I Meant...
Not that people actually start a Thread to Bash a ROM, but they Might as Well after Reading there Posts! Lol...
crpercodani said:
I don't eat copypasta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Avatar makes the post...
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't kid yourself. All it takes is roughly 20 minutes to set up and build your first ROM. It requires no skill, no college degree, and no unearthly talent. Virtually anyone could do it.
While it does take a bit more knowledge to port things over, the end result is always lackluster and very much lacks in the "I_need_a_working_stable_phone_where_all_things_included_with_it_actually_work_as_described" category. There's nothing more annoying than needing your phone at a particular time only to discover that one of a few things are happening:
-your phone has managed to lock up
-your phone is in the middle of a random reboot
-your phone has a missing feature that doesn't work because of the ROM you're using
I suppose all the ridiculous disclaimers (who's seriously going to go after a person for not having one?) try and warn you, but the cute taglines trump the disclaimer anyway.
There are few development projects going on. However, there are plenty of "let me try and frankenROM a bunch of crap together, throw it into a cute thread with a tagline indicating that it's a work in progress and that there are nightlies."
Judging by the number of replies these threads get, you can deduct the following:
-the average person on XDA doesn't have a smartphone for it to work properly.
-the average person on XDA enjoys interacting with other people on a thread even though it's mainly a bunch of back and forth replies that are limited to such wording as "yeah, ___ is broken for me too", " _insert_app_here doesn't work properly and fcs a lot"
I don't know about you, but I'm not the average XDA person and I most definitely enjoy having a working phone, so with that said--Stock ROM with modifications is all that's required to satisfy me.
To be honest, there isn't anything exciting going on aside from chad's kernel development.
This is not directed at any one person, and the true developers know that this isn't about them. Quite frankly, we need this type of work going on because it pushes the envelope and tells companies like HTC that we won't settle for less and know damn well that it's possible to push our phones further than they would have us think. Which is why sometimes, HTC gets caught with their pants down and are forced to give in. EVO 4G fps fix anyone? So I do appreciate all types of work that goes on here at XDA. But there will always be a small percentage that are in it for the internet fame (and they seem to get it quite frequently) and really bring nothing to the table except a bringing together of various other people's works.
freeza said:
Don't kid yourself. All it takes is roughly 20 minutes to set up and build your first ROM. It requires no skill, no college degree, and no unearthly talent. Virtually anyone could do it.
While it does take a bit more knowledge to port things over, the end result is always lackluster and very much lacks in the "I_need_a_working_stable_phone_where_all_things_included_with_it_actually_work_as_described" category. There's nothing more annoying than needing your phone at a particular time only to discover that one of a few things are happening:
-your phone has managed to lock up
-your phone is in the middle of a random reboot
-your phone has a missing feature that doesn't work because of the ROM you're using
I suppose all the ridiculous disclaimers (who's seriously going to go after a person for not having one?) try and warn you, but the cute taglines trump the disclaimer anyway.
There are few development projects going on. However, there are plenty of "let me try and frankenROM a bunch of crap together, throw it into a cute thread with a tagline indicating that it's a work in progress and that there are nightlies."
Judging by the number of replies these threads get, you can deduct the following:
-the average person on XDA doesn't have a smartphone for it to work properly.
-the average person on XDA enjoys interacting with other people on a thread even though it's mainly a bunch of back and forth replies that are limited to such wording as "yeah, ___ is broken for me too", " _insert_app_here doesn't work properly and fcs a lot"
I don't know about you, but I'm not the average XDA person and I most definitely enjoy having a working phone, so with that said--Stock ROM with modifications is all that's required to satisfy me.
To be honest, there isn't anything exciting going on aside from chad's kernel development.
This is not directed at any one person, and the true developers know that this isn't about them. Quite frankly, we need this type of work going on because it pushes the envelope and tells companies like HTC that we won't settle for less and know damn well that it's possible to push our phones further than they would have us think. Which is why sometimes, HTC gets caught with their pants down and are forced to give in. EVO 4G fps fix anyone? So I do appreciate all types of work that goes on here at XDA. But there will always be a small percentage that are in it for the internet fame (and they seem to get it quite frequently) and really bring nothing to the table except a bringing together of various other people's works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Testify!!!!!
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
I might just take a break all this drama stuff is like high school and post my stuff else where or keep it until its ready
adslee said:
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
xboarder56 said:
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
Silentbtdeadly said:
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope i got a group all ready working with privatly on this
I don't know much about what's going on behind the (Devs) scene - things between Xboarder56 and CM team, between Xboarder56 and Revolution but based on the facts that I've seen, Xboarder56 did a wonderful job. All the noob tools, Roms - especially his supports. He updates his Rom immediately after someone found a bug, heck, he was so fast at supporting and updating that I am - as an end user, seems to be tired to trying to keep up with his releases.
Based on what I've read in the forum, Revolution is an a**hole - period! And if I were a Mod he would be forever banned due to the fact of kept asking ETA alone - not to mention the bad intention to provoked Xboarder56.
There is a mutual benefits between Dev and end users. If you are a good Dev with a lot of followers, you will become popular and that will helps with your career (i.e Steve Kondik and Samsung). Devs built Rom not just for fun, they also built up their porfolio/resume if they wanted a good job in hi-tech field and a good reputation when putting their app on the Market.
On a personal point of view, I don't care if there is only one Dev in the Amaze forum because without many of them I still be able to get ICS when it's due from Tmobile. Flashing custom Rom is more like a hobby to many of us here and if I don't have their support I still be fine with my phone - using Stock
Another thing needs to be point out and one may not agreed with me but a Stock Rom is always better than any custom Rom. I means looks at Motorola's announcement just a few days ago when they are looking for testers for their soon to be update software, they are looking for one thousand tester and when a Mfg. released their final product, they usually testing it for months before.
As with us? Every time when we flashed a new Rom we tend to check on some basic function as wifi, tethering, bluetooth, gps and stuff like that and we were testing it for a few minutes - until it crashed or bootloop a day later. We rarely have a chance a test the Rom while doing multi-task with hundreds of apps on different environtments, i.g using GPS while listening to Music on a trip and taking/receiving phone calls while another party on hold at the other end and at the same time googling for a nearby restaurant, ect ... How many of us doing such intensive test on our beloved new Rom for a long period of time? I'm doubtful.
To top it off. More Devs? Great! I appreciates their effort and I am thankful. I will consider a donation if I think the Dev is devoting to his work and fully support his followers and deserved his rewards. If there is none? I either continuing using my phone with Stock and after a few months, Ebaying it or throw it on my local Craigslist and buy another phone - happily ever after! If there is a single Dev out there thinking that us users would have no where to go to without their work. They are wrong!
Mutual beneficial is the name of this game. Without users and testers - Dev is nothing but a desperate wannabe tech-guy looking for a job without a good looking porfolio/resume. No chance to practice and/or testing your product. Without Devs, users would have no fun and his phone purchasing cycle will be shorter hence carriers and Mfg. can sell more phones! That's about it!
Enough ranting and my appologies for those who hates long post.
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks! It's difficult to find balance between the forum and my personal life but I do what I can. Also keep in mind that I moderate more forums here on XDA at the same time as do a lot of forum moderators. So if you don't see them in other forums frequently then use the report post feature and report the thread. Your FSM will be alerted to investigate the reported issue.
sunlaw2 said:
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Umm....shouldn't the ref call the foul on the guy who actually committed the foul in the first place? Just sayin.
Silentbtdeadly said:
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally see where you are coming from. In reality their are people who will intentionally get under you skin any way they can. Even as an adult it still happens. But if theirs anything that I learned in flight school its that you can run into the wind you have to turn into and face it. The thing you push against lifts you up. Team work is crucial in any thing you do really. That's what being a community is about, working together not being divided. I have seen the things revolution has done and in reality he is one of the ones who won't go far. I mean all of this out of respect, but with a device so scares but great that is a reason we should help on another. If HTC won't help then it looks like its up to us. We need to work together and stop being a pain in the ass toward one another. Like I said I'm not blaming anyone its all out of respect.
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
500thanks out of 1500total posts meaning 67% of the time he talks bullsh$t
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using xda premium
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
Silentbtdeadly said:
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thread closed per OP request.
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
.
Howdy folks.
I enjoy being able to help out around here, I really do. But I think it's time for me to take a step back. Being on here shouldn't be stressful; it should be fun. This is my hobby; it's supposed to be fun. But when I go through a lot of trouble to put information in my posts and try to explain things, only to have people ask questions that have been answered over and over again, it gets extremely frustrating. I understand not everyone has the same aptitude for this stuff, but anyone that decides to be here has chosen to learn more about their device. They want to get the most out of it. To do that, will require reading and learning. Searching. Reading more. I just want to encourage everyone that wants to learn to read. And if you don't want to learn - if you just want quick answers to quick problems - then you may be in the wrong place. I think there are other, more "noob-friendly" forums, but this place is where the information gets deep. So while you might not know how to do everything, or understand what all the terms mean, at least give it a shot if you're going to be here. This community is built by people that may have started out knowing nothing (like me), but after years of reading and learning, they find ways to contribute. I hope someday everyone can get to that point. I hope that I've helped some of you get there.
But I am daily inundated with PMs of questions answered in the forum. I am not a shortcut to prevent you from having to search. My time is valuable, just like everyone else's. Use the forum. That's what it's here for. It's how I learned.
I'll probably still pop in here and there, but I'm going to try to be around less. I just see a lot of arbitrary information being spoken, information incorrect and not fact-based, and it frustrates me. So, maybe once my frustration dies down, I'll be more inclined to contribute more, but right now, I think it's time for a break.
I want to personally thank you for all that you have done for the community, and me.
Thanks CT.
Thanks for all your hard work, Cap. Take a break & get some rest.
Sent from my EVO LTE
FinZ28 said:
Thanks for all your hard work, Cap. Take a break & get some rest.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. Thank you Captain.
Some of us are eternally grateful for your contributions. Thank you sir and enjoy your free time. You've certainly earned it.
EVOlved human
I think that there are enough knowledgeable folks around here to handle things while you are gone. I try to answer the redundant questions, but you're just fast at answering them, too. Enjoy your break.
Suggestion: don't "try" to be around less...just don't.
Internet is serious business. Get well soon.
Sorry to hear Captain. Thanks for all the help over the last few years. You've gotten me out of a few pickles. I hope to see you around these parts again.
Hey Captain- You are one of the many devs I have great admiration and respect for, due to your patience and willingness to help those whom are less informed. It's part of what makes you a good person. Forums are forums. I belong to so many ranging in every subject. There are those whom take shortcuts, and those whom respect the rules and follow them.
From my experience, I can't stay away even when frustrated. A lot of the peeps on the forums I consider friends, or close associates even though I never met them. Those are the peeps keeping me coming back.
So, I encourage you to do what's best for you. But, if you're anything like me, you'll ignore the ignorant, and continue to help, as that's what your gift is. Thank you.
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
No doubt bro, you've been busy, we all appreciate the tremendous amount of hard work and information you've put out there for everyone. Thank cap!
Sent from my EVO using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Hi, can anyone tell me if Captain Throwback is going to take a step back or not? It may have been posted somewhere, but I don't have time to search.
...ha, just playing. Thanks Captain - I've been on here for a few years, but only started posting recently after I learned more. I highly appreciate your contributions and respect that you need to decompress and relax a bit more from the day to day here..can be quite overwhelming.
thanks for your time and efforts.
And then people wonder why we don't release roms.... :screwy:
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
Thank you Captain for everything you have done for the community. I remember you being the man since the OG Evo days. I know if you post something, it can be trusted. I have learned a lot from your posts, and hope I can one day contribute back. It's a shame your hobby was spoiled for you by spoiled users. Hope to see you back.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
Thanks for everything you've done Captain. I've never had to ask you a question, because you do answer them thoroughly up front. Please know just how much you have helped and how much I've learned from your posts. Take the time you need.
Thanks.
Thank you!
It is sad when something you love becomes a daily function and no longer is a passion. I never post on these threads, but when I see developers like Sin and Captain looking to walk away from their passion due to the frustration from US, so it is time to THINK BEFORE WE POST. We need to take a step back and solve our own issues on the forums. It is all there on the threads, but we chose to take the easy road and ask simple question instead of taking 5 minutes to google key words or read the thread entirely. I have learned so much from Capt. and Sin and many others like them. I see that they both want a break and they very much deserve time away from the critics as well. We do ask the same questions a half a dozen times within a 50 pg. thread. I have played with my phones just to see it tick from the good old Evo Supersonic (god bless my first love that lead me into these forums) and my current love the Evo Jewel. I look back and have loved bricking my phone, so I can dig deep into these forums and fix. It took me 30 hours of my time researching and yes wanting to throw through a window, but I finally fixed and that was an awesome feeling. The nice thing is that I learned from reading forum or from googling. I never will forget how to unbrick a phone or the tools that allowed me get it working once again. Thank you gentlemen for all your hard work. Enjoy your much needed time off JIM
JimmyJimH said:
It is sad when something you love becomes a daily function and no longer is a passion. I never post on these threads, but when I see developers like Sin and Captain looking to walk away from their passion due to the frustration from US, so it is time to THINK BEFORE WE POST. We need to take a step back and solve our own issues on the forums. It is all there on the threads, but we chose to take the easy road and ask simple question instead of taking 5 minutes to google key words or read the thread entirely. I have learned so much from Capt. and Sin and many others like them. I see that they both want a break and they very much deserve time away from the critics as well. We do ask the same questions a half a dozen times within a 50 pg. thread. I have played with my phones just to see it tick from the good old Evo Supersonic (god bless my first love that lead me into these forums) and my current love the Evo Jewel. I look back and have loved bricking my phone, so I can dig deep into these forums and fix. It took me 30 hours of my time researching and yes wanting to throw through a window, but I finally fixed and that was an awesome feeling. The nice thing is that I learned from reading forum or from googling. I never will forget how to unbrick a phone or the tools that allowed me get it working once again. Thank you gentlemen for all your hard work. Enjoy your much needed time off JIM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't say it any better. I have been following captain's 4.3 stock thread as well as chubbz 4.3 5.5 thread since day one. I'm relatively new to this and they have explained stuff in ways that I can understand and if I can't I go to google first. I very rarely post a question without doing any searching. These devs work their ass off to provide ways to make our devices better and what they get in return are ungreatful comments or complaints and the same question being asked. Sometimes it looks like the repeated question was literally a copy/paste job. Seriously the devs shouldn't have to hold our hands. Let's be big kids and not frustrate our devs anymore. They don't deserve it. Search before you post please. I don't want to lose the great devs and be stuck with the jewel without the option to make it better.
HTC Jewel
Hboot 2.10 S-off
Android 4.3 Sense 5.5 V3
do you mind if i pm and ask you exactly why? i didnt read the the OP.
ok too soon, too soon. Im just joking and i sincerely thank you for all of your help. i remember rooting my OG evo years ago and my heart was pounding and my hands were sweating. It was so exciting and scary at the same time, and i remember i read a lot of info and never had to post because everything was already there just ready to be read and searched.
Thanks to all the devs.
Been following your wisdom and kindness for almost two years. Thank you for all your time,patients, and devotion to all here.
Sent from my EVO using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Thank you Captain.
Every device forum here on XDA is full of grievances from developers or faithful patrons about the frequency of redundant questions, stupidity, laziness, etc. It seems like it has always been this way to some extent but may be getting worse lately. Let's face it, early adopters are more likely to be technophiles and take the time to do more research. The older the device gets, the cheaper and more accessible it becomes and customers that just bought the cheapest cool phone they could are going to start popping up. We're fortunate there are still good devs spending time on this device and that HTC even put out a new update this late in the game for the devs to work with.
Developers have various ways of coping with this frustrating behavior but the end result always tends to be isolationism. Doesn't that indicate the system is broken? Shouldn't there be better controls in place to limit this behavior? I think the mods do the best they can with the resources and rules available to them but maybe people like me should relegated to being a fly on the wall only being able to read the discussions between developers. If non-devs are going to be allowed to post, perhaps the number of posts should be limited to a couple per week/month/whatever and increased based on some merit based system. That will confer some value to the posts you make so they aren't wasted on something you could have searched for. It is too easy to just ask the question without searching. Conversely, a more robust DEmerit system could be implemented. If you post a stupid question instead of everyone flaming you, they get to hit a "demerit" button and once you hit a threshold you can't post again for a week/month/whatever. If you flame someone anyways and people think you're too harsh, they get to demerit you. Maybe the devs should have to invite you to be a member in order to gain access to posting privileges. Envision it working like a private torrenting site. You're responsible for the people you invite and if you leech way more than you seed both you and the person that invited you get penalized.
I thought the introduction of the "Original Android Development" forum was going to be limited solely to developers and I think that was the intent but it didn't really work out that way. I think the developers should get to have an adults' table to eat at with the rest of us sitting at the kids' table (and I'm 36) until we're old enough or prove we're mature enough to get invited over. Until then we just have to hope we get to overhear some interesting stories or dirty jokes coming from the other table.
Just my 2 cents.
Thanks Captain and all the other devs for making my devices more interesting.