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I am thinking about getting the Eris, but I read that the Sprint and European Hero both have a slightly larger 1500mah battery vs the Eris 1300(or was it 1200, either way it's smaller)mah battery. I have read this equals to about an hour less of talk time, and few hours less of standby time. Therefore, since the Eris is just another version of the Hero is it possible to get the Hero battery and use it on the Eris? thanks
bump please?
european Hero is 1350 i think, so not much difference there :/
Hmm but the Sprint Hero, which we get state side is 1500mah which is marginally larger and better from what I have seen in the reviews.
You are correct - the European Hero has a 1350mAh battery. However, as a GSM device it is less power hungry than the CDMA versions. I'm very surprised that the Eris doesn't use the same battery as the Sprint Hero.
I don't know any specifics of the Eris battery dimensions, but I do know that the Sprint battery is too big to fit in a GSM Hero.
Regards,
Dave
Big in terms of depth, hight &/or width wise? Yeah the Eris battery life is what gets me. You pair the Eris with its senor and the Sprint battery it could easily have the best battery life. Thanks.
The dimensions of the Sprint Hero battery is (in inches): 2 9/16 x 1 11/16 x 3/16
I've got a GSM Hero, so I didn't take these measurements myself and got them from another forum user here.
Regards,
Dave
Well I looked around a bit and turns out the Euro Hero battery fits but not worth it as its only a 50mah larger. The Sprint Hero battery works, but the battery cover does not fit over, hence a larger battery cover is needed(not needed with the Euro model).
Does anyone know if the seido 1750 that fits in the incredible without an extended cover would work with thunderbolt? Would hate to have to dish out another 50 bucks on top of the cost of the phone for an extra battery. Would be nice to just use what I already have.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I think I read on Droid Forums that the batts are not the same design as the Inc batts. I might be wrong.
Ask jCase , he might know.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
Seidio is making a 1600mAh batt for this phone but it is not in stock yet.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
Only 1600...strange a more powerful phone with lesser battery. Maybe its much more battery efficient..I hope
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I read that HTC is making a larger battery & back cover . I don't remember the exact voltage.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
Don't complain the desire HD only has 1230
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
I checked and the HTC is a 2750mAh according to android forums.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
This phone is pretty thick to begin with, the last thing it needs is a thicker battery. I still can't wrap my head around how other manufacturers are able to put higher capacity batteries into much thinner phones, and HTC can't.
They want to sell more batts.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
Yeah im not feeling a thicker battery and extended cover. It sucks that HTC puts together these killer phones but fail on battery size. My dinc lasts most of the day which is fine. I can only hope the tb performs equal on a smaller battery. I
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I'm sure you will start seeing more third party batts come out after phone is released.
Sent by my Droid Incredible
Unfortunately, I don't think that the Dinc or EVO battery will work in the Thunderbolt.
Wirefly did a video comparing the Thunderbolt and the EVO and you can clearly see that the batteries are physically a different size.
The Dinc and the EVO do have the same physical sized battery, right? I know that my old TP2 battery (1500 mah) would work in my Dinc.
You have to understand, the thunderbolt is not running the old cpu snapdragon that's in the evo. they had no need to stick a large battery in a phone that's is designed around better power consumption vs the evo.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I have the stock battery in my Incredible and have managed to get pretty good battery life and still use my phone the way i want. Plus im never far from a charger. Im ready for this phone!
Androidfreakz said:
You have to understand, the thunderbolt is not running the old cpu snapdragon that's in the evo. they had no need to stick a large battery in a phone that's is designed around better power consumption vs the evo.
I understand that is likely the case and is my hope but accomplishing it is another story..we will find out soon....one onethousand.....
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Androidfreakz said:
You have to understand, the thunderbolt is not running the old cpu snapdragon that's in the evo. they had no need to stick a large battery in a phone that's is designed around better power consumption vs the evo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes exactly, the TB Snapdragon uses the 45nm manufacturing process ("2nd gen") as opposed to the earlier (also 1GHz chip) Evo 4G CPU. The EVO 4G Snapdragon is 65nm process and "1st gen". Comparing equivalent Snapdragons in that entire line up of chips between the 45/65 Qualcomm stated that change provides a 30% lower dynamic power consumption and a much lower standby power as well. The battery capacity reduction from Evo 4G to Thunderbolt is only about 7%. This guarantees overall longer times between charge with the TB (of course under identical use). Adding an aftermarket higher capacity battery will be icing on the cake.
swamp2 said:
Yes exactly, the TB Snapdragon uses the 45nm manufacturing process ("2nd gen") as opposed to the earlier (also 1GHz chip) Evo 4G CPU. The EVO 4G Snapdragon is 65nm process and "1st gen". Comparing equivalent Snapdragons in that entire line up of chips between the 45/65 Qualcomm stated that change provides a 30% lower dynamic power consumption and a much lower standby power as well. The battery capacity reduction from Evo 4G to Thunderbolt is only about 7%. This guarantees overall longer times between charge with the TB (of course under identical use). Adding an aftermarket higher capacity battery will be icing on the cake.
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Click to collapse
EXACTLY! i have a nexus one and most people at my job have rooted androids as well and the biggest mutual problem for all of us is battery life. and to me thats the biggest flaw with android phones. i love my nexus one but the damn thing doesnt stay alive for a full 24 hours. just like the guy i quoted said an extended battery would be great. especially the 2750 mah battery im reading about. thats almost double the stock battery!
b33zy682 said:
EXACTLY! i have a nexus one and most people at my job have rooted androids as well and the biggest mutual problem for all of us is battery life. and to me thats the biggest flaw with android phones. i love my nexus one but the damn thing doesnt stay alive for a full 24 hours. just like the guy i quoted said an extended battery would be great. especially the 2750 mah battery im reading about. thats almost double the stock battery!
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Click to collapse
A lot of the problems with battery life on Android (IMHO) is the notification system and widgets. I have seen people get some pretty awesome battery life by turning off all notifications and not using widgets. However to me that negates most of the use of the phone lol... I've learned to live with the battery life issues, I'm usually close to a charger and will bump charge when I need to.
Now a 2750 mah battery would be ideal and I will take it...
ska.t73 said:
A lot of the problems with battery life on Android (IMHO) is the notification system and widgets. I have seen people get some pretty awesome battery life by turning off all notifications and not using widgets. However to me that negates most of the use of the phone lol... I've learned to live with the battery life issues, I'm usually close to a charger and will bump charge when I need to.
Now a 2750 mah battery would be ideal and I will take it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree. whats an android without widgets? sounds like an iphone LOL but yea ive tried every possible combination to get my battery better and it still sucks. like you said im used to it now. i have a car charger and spare wall charger ready to go when i need them. i juss wonder with the mecha how much bigger the phone will be with an extended back to cover the extended battery
b33zy682 said:
i juss wonder with the mecha how much bigger the phone will be with an extended back to cover the extended battery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There should be an extended battery that takes up no more space. Then there may also be one that must have an extended cover and will be larger. We'll see.
Only real complaint I have of my EVO 4G is the poor battery life. Even though I am rooted with a great ROM and custom kernel for better battery, my battery life still doesn't come close to my Brothers iPhone4. My phone dies by end of the day.
I see the specs of the EVO 3D, having a larger stock battery, and dual cores should be more efficient on the OS, and this phone was built around Gingerbread that is better performance than Froyo.
So adding all that up, I hope to God this new phone has much better battery life ?
Sent from my EVO 4G "Myn's RS 5"
Type:
Li-Ion 1730 mAh Standard Battery
Standby Time Up to 355 hours
Talk Time Up to 450 mins
Read more: http://gadgetian.com/9927/htc-evo-3d-specs-price/#ixzz1MklQRVOd
Thanks laf.
I am sure HTC is well aware of the bad press the EVO 4G got on release in regards to poor battery life. So maybe they worked extra hard to make sure the new EVO is improved.
Do you have the original specs for the EVO 4G. Be curious what HTC wrote down for talk time last year.
Sent from my EVO 4G "Myn's RS 5"
EVO 4G
Battery Specifications
Talk Time Up to 312 mins
Web Browsing over 3G Not Available
Standby Time Up to 146 hrs
Type of Battery Lithium Ion battery
I think it will probably the same. It has a bigger battery but also a dual core processor.
fmedina2 said:
I think it will probably the same. It has a bigger battery but also a dual core processor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dual core = more power efficient
not dual power
anyway this thread really isn't useful right now. Since noone really has the phone we are stuck with speculation and specs that can be altered heavily. In theory bigger battery plus dual core sounds like a longer battery life, we really won't know how it compares until release
I wonder how much the graphics will drink that juice. I don't know much about the 3D technology but I assume the graphics will be more demanding and graphics sucks so much power.
toxicfumes22 said:
I wonder how much the graphics will drink that juice. I don't know much about the 3D technology but I assume the graphics will be more demanding and graphics sucks so much power.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i would have to agree. Even though the bigger battery i think its going to be the same. my opinion though.
toxicfumes22 said:
I wonder how much the graphics will drink that juice. I don't know much about the 3D technology but I assume the graphics will be more demanding and graphics sucks so much power.
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Click to collapse
This was my thought, I mean 3D has to be graphics intense since it's essentially 2 pictures running side by side.
Also higher resolution. Dint really know if that plays a role though.
mattfmartin said:
Also higher resolution. Dint really know if that plays a role though.
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Click to collapse
My understanding of the power usage of 4" of LCDs is like 3-5Watts so I assume that is not that demanding. The LCDs don't burn the battery but the back light will. Again this is my understanding but not based from my knowledge on phones, but that of projectors.
I wish I knew more about phone but I hated C+ programing. I only used it for a Mechatronics class, though it was fun to control the robot and use the technology thats found in $70k cars, It took me 2-3 hour to write the code for a clock cause I can't think like that. cant hit 00:00 or 24:00 and didn't know any built in codes. The code was only about 7-8lines as well so it was extremely small (and easy afterwards).
toxicfumes22 said:
My understanding of the power usage of 4" of LCDs is like 3-5Watts so I assume that is not that demanding. The LCDs don't burn the battery but the back light will. Again this is my understanding but not based from my knowledge on phones, but that of projectors.
I wish I knew more about phone but I hated C+ programing. I only used it for a Mechatronics class, though it was fun to control the robot and use the technology thats found in $70k cars, It took me 2-3 hour to write the code for a clock cause I can't think like that. cant hit 00:00 or 24:00 and didn't know any built in codes. The code was only about 7-8lines as well so it was extremely small (and easy afterwards).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wtf are you talking about? C++? using a robot to program a clock? what does this have to to with the wattage of smartphone screens?
but anyway, The larger battery and dual core processor of the Evo 3D should definitely create a noticeable improvement in battery life. However i feel like 3D is going to seriously drain battery life though. Obviously its not a direct comparison to the Evo 3D but the 3DS is much thicker than the DSi (i assume that means more or at least the same amount of battery) and sports a 4hr battery life lol.
If your that concerned with battery life just buy extra batteries and charger on Amazon I have three. If you can afford an evo you can afford a ten dollar battery and a five dollar charger. Then it wont matter how bad the battery life is.
don't forget to bring a towel!
mayfield103 said:
If your that concerned with battery life just buy extra batteries and charger on Amazon I have three. If you can afford an evo you can afford a ten dollar battery and a five dollar charger. Then it wont matter how bad the battery life is.
don't forget to bring a towel!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would you buy a phone if you feel like you have to buy extra batteries to carry around. Plus it has nothing to do with money its just the point that a phone should get you through the day
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App
Phones have always had this problem. And I would rather carry a couple batteries around than constantly be charging my phone or not using it cuz I'm scared its gonna die on me extra batteries = no worries
don't forget to bring a towel!
Remember the 3D is optional. There is only a few things that are 3D, not the entire phone.
Whosdaman said:
Remember the 3D is optional. There is only a few things that are 3D, not the entire phone.
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Click to collapse
that righ there is going to be the key. it's just like having wifi, BT and GPS turned on all the time n any other phone. your 3D usage here will be the key I'm guessing to your battery life.
rrsweet said:
that righ there is going to be the key. it's just like having wifi, BT and GPS turned on all the time n any other phone. your 3D usage here will be the key I'm guessing to your battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
precisely. Its like running a full screen game on your current smart phone. It kills your battery quickly
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
ldominguez1986 said:
Why would you buy a phone if you feel like you have to buy extra batteries to carry around. Plus it has nothing to do with money its just the point that a phone should get you through the day
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I keep a spare battery in my wallet and battery life is a non issue to me. I usually have half of one left after a twelve hour day at work with pandora playing over bluetooth and the screen being on for 4 to 6 hours. Usually I'm looking at the news or using the internet most of the time it's on.
If swapping out the battery is too much work you can always get an extended one but if you're just completely against the idea period then you're best bet is an iphone with its permanent battery.
I have enough to worry about in my life to have to micro mangage my phone killing apps and turning on and off GPS and wifi with an extra battery I can just enjoy my phone.
don't forget to bring a towel!
So I have an EVO 3d and was thinking of switching to T-mobile... obviously I chose the Sensation. I immediately popped in a spare battery that I had for my Evo 3d (stock, 1730 mah, fully charged and ready to go) and I noticed over the next few days that I was getting similar battery life to my EVO 3D (by similar I mean literally a difference within minutes... both phones lasted me from 12-14 hours with the same amount of usage). One day I forgot to charge my phone, so I popped in the stock Sensation battery (1520 mah). Theoretically I should have reduced battery life... right? Wrong. My battery nearly doubled. Was the Sensation packaged with a better battery than ours, despite the fact that the EVO 3d's is bigger? Would the 3d's battery life be better and last longer with the Sensation's battery? Obviously this observation is completely crap if we don't get someone to test this. I don't have my 3d accessible for a few days (long story), so does anyone want to test this who has a Sensation's battery lying around?
If the 1730mAh battery is operating at anything under 90% then it would make sense for the Sensation's battery to last just as long, if not longer than the EVO 3D's--if the Sensation's battery was operating at over 95% that is.
I do notice that the sensation manages battery a bit better then the evo. First the screen would dim in a shorter amount of time then the evo. This is the dim before the shutoff. Next the capacitance buttons turn off when not in use unlike the evos continuous on, the buttons are also a bit dimmer when there is a light source and the vibrations are not as intense.
The wifi also seems to be managed better for some reason.
Well the sensation isn't 3D either. It takes a lot of juice to run 3D. Now if hardware and software were exact, and the sensation battery lasted longer, then perhaps you'd be onto something. But the 3D has a good amount more going on then the sensation. Did you think about that?
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
freeza said:
If the 1730mAh battery is operating at anything under 90% then it would make sense for the Sensation's battery to last just as long, if not longer than the EVO 3D's--if the Sensation's battery was operating at over 95% that is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both are brand new. They should be both running at 100%
pkny said:
I do notice that the sensation manages battery a bit better then the evo. First the screen would dim in a shorter amount of time then the evo. This is the dim before the shutoff. Next the capacitance buttons turn off when not in use unlike the evos continuous on, the buttons are also a bit dimmer when there is a light source and the vibrations are not as intense.
The wifi also seems to be managed better for some reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are essentially the same phone with the same internals (excluding radios). Plus, they are running the same software. All power management is the same. But what I'm thinking is that maybe the Sensation's battery is of better quality and maybe if we used a Sensation battery, our battery life will run longer. I might get my 3D back today, so I'll be able to test.
sniperkill said:
Well the sensation isn't 3D either. It takes a lot of juice to run 3D. Now if hardware and software were exact, and the sensation battery lasted longer, then perhaps you'd be onto something. But the 3D has a good amount more going on then the sensation. Did you think about that?
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3D is ONLY on when you're watching 3d videos or taking a picture. Otherwise, 3D has no effect on battery draw. Again, I'm not saying our battery life should beat the Sensation's, I'm just pointing out that maybe our battery (physical battery in the back of the phone)isn't up to par with the Sensation's battery.
clules94 said:
Both are brand new. They should be both running at 100%
They are essentially the same phone with the same internals (excluding radios). Plus, they are running the same software. All power management is the same. But what I'm thinking is that maybe the Sensation's battery is of better quality and maybe if we used a Sensation battery, our battery life will run longer. I might get my 3D back today, so I'll be able to test.
3D is ONLY on when you're watching 3d videos or taking a picture. Otherwise, 3D has no effect on battery draw. Again, I'm not saying our battery life should beat the Sensation's, I'm just pointing out that maybe our battery (physical battery in the back of the phone)isn't up to par with the Sensation's battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The capacitance buttons light even though maybe insignificant coupled with the more intense vibration draws a good amount of power. The buttons are used a lot when the screen is on.
From what I understand, the Sensations XE, XL, 4G, AMAZE, EVO 3D all use the same battery.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250947417023
If this comes close to 2300 mAh, it is too good to be true.
Can anyone offer a good way to test that is scientific as opposed to just plain observation?
look forward to your tests!
why not test by recording your daily usage, on the same phone with same setup. Test should include what u were doing and duration.
Compare the original battery vs this beast for a few days to get a good feel of improvement/non-improvement.
Here is a quote from the seller on ebay:
"Thanks for your interest. The dimension of this battery is the same with the original one, so it doesn't need an external back door. But if your phone is customized version, it doesn't work with your cellphone.
But I need to be honest, this battery is offered by the supplier, and we don?t have professional equipment to exam its precise mAh. In fact, this battery is a little less than 2300 mAh. Hope you can understand. Actually, nearly all the batteries don't have the mAh as they are marked. Hope you can understand."
I wouldn't try it.
I have bought a replacement 1700mAh battery for the EVO 3D from a reputable brand, and the Titan cannot detect the remaining charge and will only charge it when the screen is on.
After reading some discussions on Titan batteries from a Taiwan forum: (in Traditional Chinese)
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=224&t=2429110&m=f&p=1&img=0
Some guy bought an 2050mAh EVO 3D battery and encountered the same problem as mine. He took the battery to customer service, they updated some firmware on the battery to fix the problem.
The manufacturer then proceeded to release a new version of the battery made specifically for Sensation XL / Titan.
http://www.nexson.com.tw/ProductDetailShow.jsp?ProductNo=27
So it seems only the Sensation XL share the same battery as Titan.
Phil_123 said:
I wouldn't try it.
I have bought a replacement 1700mAh battery for the EVO 3D from a reputable brand, and the Titan cannot detect the remaining charge and will only charge it when the screen is on.
After reading some discussions on Titan batteries from a Taiwan forum: (in Traditional Chinese)
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=224&t=2429110&m=f&p=1&img=0
Some guy bought an 2050mAh EVO 3D battery and encountered the same problem as mine. He took the battery to customer service, they updated some firmware on the battery to fix the problem.
The manufacturer then proceeded to release a new version of the battery made specifically for Sensation XL / Titan.
http://www.nexson.com.tw/ProductDetailShow.jsp?ProductNo=27
So it seems only the Sensation XL share the same battery as Titan.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is pretty strange because I have an Amaze and an EVO 3D battery that work fine with my TITAN.
I have the ATT version.
N!njaDuck said:
That is pretty strange because I have an Amaze and an EVO 3D battery that work fine with my TITAN.
I have the ATT version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is your EVO 3D battery an HTC original battery? If yes, there are reports that it works fine in the Titan, but with 3rd party batteries you can't be really sure.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1388441
I still don't think the 2300mAh battery you posted is worth trying, since it's probably overrated.
The HTC original EVO 3D 1730mAh battery is about 51x51x5.6mm in size. Minus the label, plastics and circuit board, the lithium ion battery cell inside is guesstimated to be 51x48x5.4mm in size, which is 13.2192cm³. Put the difference in voltage aside and assume the battery is 3.6V, instead of 3.7V or 3.8V.
According to Wikipedia, the volumetric energy density of an lithium ion battery is 900 to 1900J/cm³.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-ion_battery#Specifications_and_design
Taking the maximum, to be very optimistic, the battery would be able to store:
1900 x 13.2192 = 25116.48 J
The energy stored in the battery = (charge stored) x (voltage at which it is stored)
so
The storable charge = (Energy stored in battery) / (voltage at which it is stored)
giving:
(25116.48 joules) / (3.6 volts) = 6976.8 coulombs
1 Amp-hour equals 1 (coulomb per second)-hour, which is equivalent to 3600 Coulombs.
So 1 milliAmp-hour equals 3.6 Coulombs.
So the storable charge in the proposed battery would be:
6976.8 / 3.6 = 1938 mAh
So, being incredibly optimistic, the highest capacity you could get in a battery of the same size is could get is 1938 mAh or so. Even if the battery cell is 6mm thick, the result if 2153 mAh. No way that battery can be 2300 mAh.
This post is made with reference to post #91 of the following iaudiophile.net thread:
http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10538&page=7
Phil_123 said:
Is your EVO 3D battery an HTC original battery? If yes, there are reports that it works fine in the Titan, but with 3rd party batteries you can't be really sure.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1388441
I still don't think the 2300mAh battery you posted is worth trying, since it's probably overrated.
The HTC original EVO 3D 1730mAh battery is about 51x51x5.6mm in size. Minus the label, plastics and circuit board, the lithium ion battery cell inside is guesstimated to be 51x48x5.4mm in size, which is 13.2192cm³. Put the difference in voltage aside and assume the battery is 3.6V, instead of 3.7V or 3.8V.
According to Wikipedia, the volumetric energy density of an lithium ion battery is 900 to 1900J/cm³.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-ion_battery#Specifications_and_design
Taking the maximum, to be very optimistic, the battery would be able to store:
1900 x 13.2192 = 25116.48 J
The energy stored in the battery = (charge stored) x (voltage at which it is stored)
so
The storable charge = (Energy stored in battery) / (voltage at which it is stored)
giving:
(25116.48 joules) / (3.6 volts) = 6976.8 coulombs
1 Amp-hour equals 1 (coulomb per second)-hour, which is equivalent to 3600 Coulombs.
So 1 milliAmp-hour equals 3.6 Coulombs.
So the storable charge in the proposed battery would be:
6976.8 / 3.6 = 1938 mAh
So, being incredibly optimistic, the highest capacity you could get in a battery of the same size is could get is 1938 mAh or so. Even if the battery cell is 6mm thick, the result if 2153 mAh. No way that battery can be 2300 mAh.
This post is made with reference to post #91 of the following iaudiophile.net thread:
http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10538&page=7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks! Finally some science. I already clicked the buy button. I do have the OEM EVO 3D battery. It was not a major investment or something. I did come up with a way to test the effectiveness if not the mAh, so I will post back in 21 days when I receive it.
So I Promised I would let you know what happend. I got the "2300 mAh" battery. I did get the question mark on the phone, but it worked intermittently enough that I could do a somewhat scientific test.
At full charge, my stock batters is 4400 mv
At full charge, the aftermarket batter was at 5212 mv (I know this should not be possible - clearly current was not being regulated correctly)
Don’t get excited!
Assuming that mv actually in any way were related to mAh; If you do the math, that represents approximately an 18.5 % increase bringing the battery to ~1900 mAh. Even though it is nowhere near the posted 2300, I would still be happy except…
After playing the same movie with no radios on for 25 minutes using fully charged batteries, the aftermarket battery had discharged 22% faster than the stock HTC battery. This means the battery will not even last as long as it’s smaller OEM brother. Apparently mAh as a sole measure is not enough. The efficiency that the battery is able to deliver power to the phone is just as important.
Bottom line - Not worth it…