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I had my S2 set to 1.6GHZ and noticed very little battery drop compared to 1.2ghz (stock) so now I am just wondering if it would help me save battery if I set it to 800mhz?
Anyone know if this will help?
And for some reason SETcpu only detects the S2 as 1 core. So hopefully thats just an error and I hope I really have a dual core phone.
Which kernel are you using?
I am on Light'ning 6.1 (2.6.35.11 ninphetamine-2.0.5+)
XXKH3
Changing CPU speeds will not help you save battery. Undervoltaging (UV) will, however. UV only works on certain kernels, and you MUST know what you're doing before attempting to overclock and undervoltage simultaneously. Read up OC/UV guides around the forum to know more and the recommended speed/voltage pairings.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
darylimjz said:
Changing CPU speeds will not help you save battery. Undervoltaging (UV) will, however. UV only works on certain kernels, and you MUST know what you're doing before attempting to overclock and undervoltage simultaneously. Read up OC/UV guides around the forum to know more and the recommended speed/voltage pairings.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll be staying far away from that then. Thanks!
of course underclocking will give you a bit more battery life. even if you don't undervolt.
underclocking it to 800 simply forbids the processor to go up to 1 or 1.2ghz and it doesn't need as much power as in the higher states.
a normal desktop cpu also gets hotter if its overclocked with its stock voltage. But if you crank up the voltage too, to keep it stable it will get even hotter.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Well, Nordic hardware has done some tests. Undervolting CPU and GPU will not save your batterylife significantly.
http://www.nordichardware.se/test-l...kt-pa-laengre-batteritid.html?start=3#content
The article is in Swedish, but all graphs are in English.
supermult said:
of course underclocking will give you a bit more battery life. even if you don't undervolt.
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Click to collapse
Actually it shouldn't. A faster speed allows the CPU to finish the task faster and then go to sleep...
Cane Phoenix said:
Actually it shouldn't. A faster speed allows the CPU to finish the task faster and then go to sleep...
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Yes, exactly!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
NoOneCanHelpMe said:
Yes, exactly!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
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Click to collapse
That may be true, but higher frequencies have a higher power draw, the phone at lower speeds should be able to manage with whatever the task is, assuming it's not a extensive app. If you're not a power user you don't need the phone to be clocked at the max freq, you can lower it and you see minor changes in battery life. With dual cores task are handled must better so 1.2ghz+ shouldn't really be needed, TouchWiz can't be as bad as Sense, where you actually need it to be clocked higher.
Oh man, Undervolting is OK but why would you Underclock a CPU? Now don't tell me it's too fast, don't need that speed in real world, you won't notice any difference and etc..If you are gonna Underclock it why did you purchase it on the first place?
Besides, that article said it all.
Regards.
For me I think underclocking + undervolting does indeed save battery life.
What I mean is that in my sig '1.6Ghz - 1325 mV' an at '800Mhz -950 mV' you see a difference of 375mV which I think can save your battery life for a couple of good minutes + 800Mhz is enough for my needs along with playing games (Only a tad slower at loading).
That's not necessary true. Yes at a higher frequency the task would complete faster but at the same time the processor with use more current and or increased voltage at the same time. That's why cpu's level up and down. Otherwise why not have the CPU set at 200Mhz-1200Mhz instead of 200-400-800-1000-1200Mhz.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Cane Phoenix said:
Actually it shouldn't. A faster speed allows the CPU to finish the task faster and then go to sleep...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please set your computer on fire and never return to the internet ever again so it doesn't have to be filled with your stupid statements.
Also yes underclocking saves battery, anyone who says it doesn't is dumb, you wanna see for yourself? set your phone to 1.6 GHz all the time, according to you people this wouldn't significantly drain the battery any more right?
Undervolting saves slightly more battery than underclocking.
Also why would you underclock + undervolt the phone? Because it saves battery and you won't find any noticeable performance gains between 800 MHz and 1.6 GHz.
seshmaru said:
Please set your computer on fire and never return to the internet ever again so it doesn't have to be filled with your stupid statements.
Also yes underclocking saves battery, anyone who says it doesn't is dumb, you wanna see for yourself? set your phone to 1.6 GHz all the time, according to you people this wouldn't significantly drain the battery any more right?
Undervolting saves slightly more battery than underclocking.
Also why would you underclock + undervolt the phone? Because it saves battery and you won't find any noticeable performance gains between 800 MHz and 1.6 GHz.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
underclock + undervolt = winning !
Jigsy75 said:
underclock + undervolt = winning !
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Click to collapse
My phone is running at 751mv at 200mhz on tick-over and is ok. Lots of battery life!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
darylimjz said:
Changing CPU speeds will not help you save battery. Undervoltaging (UV) will, however. UV only works on certain kernels, and you MUST know what you're doing before attempting to overclock and undervoltage simultaneously. Read up OC/UV guides around the forum to know more and the recommended speed/voltage pairings.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Changing cpu speed upwards will use more battery life.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1239176
this is another topic discussing its effect on heat generation
so whats ur opinion ???
Damn right underclocking is saving battery, just doubled battery life with setcpu @ 500 max settings try it you will see
jody2k said:
Damn right underclocking is saving battery, just doubled battery life with setcpu @ 500 max settings try it you will see
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SetCPU to 500
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
I installed the webtop over hdmi mod on my Atrix and while testing it out, it got very warm in my hand. I opened the setcpu app and noticed that while overclocked to 1.3GHz, the CPU was running at 75C! I lowered it back down to the stock 1GHz and the temp slowly went down and settled at 63C.
It seems that while in webtop mode, the CPU is taxed at 100% all the time so I'm wondering if it's safe to stay overclocked when using webtop.
Everyone has different opinions of what is too hot around here.
IMO the cooler the better. IMI No Atrix should have a temp above 60c and I'm not even comfortable with above 50c either...
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
I have experienced the same problem and worried that something may fry.... I have had mine overclocked at 1.45 using debian linux and all of a suddent he phone freezes and restarts.... Since it did it to me the second time I have kept my phone at 1Ghz... I am new at this so please don't beat me up too bad for being a noob... Just want to see if maybe undervolting it a little might help or hurt it?
Thanks in advance
Here are some tips I can offer
1.Try re-flashing your custom kernel and see if that fixes the web-top thing and over heating
Whenever the phone is plugged to the web-top it will naturally overheat so it's kinda expected remember now it's gotta work harder since its displaying on lap-dock or TV,but if you can cook an egg on it it might be too hot...lol
2.Set profile for temperature on setcpu so this way once you reach for example 100F your phone will clock down a little and so it might help the heat issue.You can set even more than one temp profile so this way when it reaches 96 it goes down a little then when it reaches 100 it will clock down a little more and such.
3.If that doesn't help,which in my situation it did.Flash a different kernel mayb it's just the one you're using that is causing funny stuff to happen.
Edit: not sure but i think undervolting helps battery but causes more heat,I myself don't undervolt I just created litterally a bunch of setcpu profiles for battery level,screen off,incall,charging,temp,and time and I'm getting 13 hour days at 1.3Ghz and temp profiles have been helping by clocking down when it's too hot therefore saving battery and drastic overheating.I dontlike my phone going anything over 104F it gets me paranoid,but that's just me.
I tried reflashing the kernel but it didn't change anything. I'm using Faux's 1.3GHz overclock kernel for Gingerbread (2.6.32.9). Is there something else I should be using?
sk8trix said:
Edit: not sure but i think undervolting helps battery but causes more heat,I myself don't undervolt I just created litterally a bunch of setcpu profiles for battery level,screen off,incall,charging,temp,and time and I'm getting 13 hour days at 1.3Ghz and temp profiles have been helping by clocking down when it's too hot therefore saving battery and drastic overheating.I dontlike my phone going anything over 104F it gets me paranoid,but that's just me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do what sktrix said in rest of his post.
I use the stopgap 1.0GHz kernel, and UV does lower temperatures. I would definitely try UV'ing a wee bit. You don't need to go crazy. I am using the following with great results for both temp and battery life:
-50
-50
-75
-75
-75
-100
-100
My setcpu profile clocks it back if I reach 60C, (I idle in the low to mid 30's). Under heavy load I reach around 52C max which is quite acceptable.
Now, granted I am not using Webtop, but the end result for UV should be the same. Lower temps and better battery life. You may also want to try just using 1.0GHz when on Webtop. The phone has more than enough power at this clock speed.
There is a bug with faux's kernel that causes the webtop to clock the phone at max speeds until restart.
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
I know I'm straying from my correct forums here, however I have an LG Optimus 2X which like the Atrix, is a Tegra 2 CPU.
Our phones get VERY hot, I have had my CPU up to 86C before I decided to back off the stress test. CPUs are very good at handling high temperatures, and IMO you will see no ill effects from doing so, I am unsure of whether or not the Tegra 2 has thermal throttling/shut down, but in my experience they should be fine to around 80C.
The only issue I can forsee is the battery, batteries HATE high temperatures and it is awful for their life span, this is why your laptop batteries turn to crap after 1-2 years, even if low charge cycles, because they are always hot.
I would not be concerned about anything in the 70C realm, at all.
Alcapone263 said:
There is a bug with faux's kernel that causes the webtop to clock the phone at max speeds until restart.
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Experienced this countless times. More with the latest 1.45Ghz, but it did happen on the previous release. When I dopped the mhz with setcpu, it wont scale but stay at max cpu. It even did it a few times without using the webtop.
g2tegg said:
Experienced this countless times. More with the latest 1.45Ghz, but it did happen on the previous release. When I dopped the mhz with setcpu, it wont scale but stay at max cpu. It even did it a few times without using the webtop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So which overclocked kernel is best for webtop? I too have noticed where the CPU hangs at 100% at 1.45Ghz for a while when disconnected but it is always there when im in webtop mode.... How is Faux 1.3Ghz kernel with webtop?
ericemir said:
So which overclocked kernel is best for webtop? I too have noticed where the CPU hangs at 100% at 1.45Ghz for a while when disconnected but it is always there when im in webtop mode.... How is Faux 1.3Ghz kernel with webtop?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will still hang at 1.3ghz, though it's a known bug. I just stick with the 1.0 enhanced, there's no noticeable real-world difference from going over 1.0ghz anyway, it's just a benchmark gimmick. Right now, the software that's out there is optimized to run on existing hardware w/o overclocks. I've run Shadowgun at 1.45ghz and didn't see any difference over the 1.0 enhanced.
Now, if we were trying to run games that were coded specifically or faster-paced chipsets then we'd need overclocking to catch up much like you would in the PC arena. That, however, is not happening in the cell phone market just yet.
treehumper said:
I just stick with the 1.0 enhanced, there's no noticeable real-world difference from going over 1.0ghz anyway, it's just a benchmark gimmick.
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What's the advantage to running a custom kernel if you're not overclocking? Forgive me if this is a stupid question lol. Still a noob.
cjrhoades said:
What's the advantage to running a custom kernel if you're not overclocking? Forgive me if this is a stupid question lol. Still a noob.
Click to expand...
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Bump.
Anyone?
cjrhoades said:
Bump.
Anyone?
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Click to collapse
Read the history at the following:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=15387385&postcount=1
You will see a lot more optimization than just upping the clock speed. One of the reasons the 1.0GHz kernel works much better than the stock kernel. Also, the ability to undervolt saving battery life.
IMO there is no need for 1.3GHz or 1.45GHz in everyday use of a phone. The only benefit is for OC'ing bragging rights. Until we can control phone temperatures better, it's pointless to risk the substantial heat increase on ALL internal components for extended periods of time which results from much increased CPU temperatures.
CaelanT said:
Read the history at the following:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=15387385&postcount=1
You will see a lot more optimization than just upping the clock speed. One of the reasons the 1.0GHz kernel works much better than the stock kernel. Also, the ability to undervolt saving battery life.
IMO there is no need for 1.3GHz or 1.45GHz in everyday use of a phone. The only benefit is for OC'ing bragging rights. Until we can control phone temperatures better, it's pointless to risk the substantial heat increase on ALL internal components for extended periods of time which results from much increased CPU temperatures.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see... guess that explains why the phone doesn't really feel any faster when it's overclocked. I'll flash the 1GHz kernel then.
Thanks for the info.
Not sure if this is the same with phones but normally a CPU should stay at 40C idle and 50C load. Maximum would be 60C while benching or something.
If it goes above that I would definitely underclock/undervolt.
cjrhoades said:
what's the advantage to running a custom kernel if you're not overclocking? Forgive me if this is a stupid question lol. Still a noob.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
also has other fixes besides overclocking you can go read them in the kernel threads
which has better batt life? cm7 or miui?
I used CGM 7.1 on my SGS i9000 and battery lasted 10-12 hours, no better no worse than the previous stock Eclaire ROM. But I gained 300 MHz in cpu speed. I use the SGS extensively during the day, mostly connected to HSPA network. Can't help you on MIUI since I didn't try that one though.
gustaftoni said:
I used CGM 7.1 on my SGS i9000 and battery lasted 10-12 hours, no better no worse than the previous stock Eclaire ROM. But I gained 300 MHz in cpu speed. I use the SGS extensively during the day, mostly connected to HSPA network. Can't help you on MIUI since I didn't try that one though.
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hey gustaftoni.. its ridiculous.. many people recommend cm7 over sense. they say sense is a battery hog and that cm7 fixes all battery draining issues. yet, when you install cm7, the first thing you notice is battery drain. i seriously dont understand why people make stupid claims like this.
So you own a Htc. I own a Samsung, so I didn't have htcsense. Maybe the Samsung rom was already optimized for a good battery life. Anyway I get the same battery life but with processor speed of 1300 MHz instead of 1000. I assume batt life would be longer at stock speed. Try an app like juicedefender or similar for longer battery life, that will sort much more effect than changing rom. Cheers
or set lower clock speeds when screen offs
gustaftoni said:
Try an app like juicedefender or similar for longer battery life, that will sort much more effect than changing rom. Cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i'll think about it. but i'd rather go into the file system and manually tweak my settings. thanks.
bs828 said:
or set lower clock speeds when screen offs
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Click to collapse
hi bs.. can you tell me what files in my phone to edit to lower clock speeds when the screen is off? also, i have max clock speed at 768 and min at 245. i'd like to lower max to around 500. but the lowest option after that is 368. like i said, is there a file that i can tweak the max to a lower setting between 768 and 368?
bs828 said:
or set lower clock speeds when screen offs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...if you can (without stalling your device). The min for my SGS is 100 MHz and I'm already there. Besides some Roms do not support low speeds as well as other ones do. Just like overclocking, underclocking requires luck.
I have used both, and I can't say for sure, but I think CM7 is faster.
gustaftoni said:
So you own a Htc. I own a Samsung, so I didn't have htcsense. Maybe the Samsung rom was already optimized for a good battery life. Anyway I get the same battery life but with processor speed of 1300 MHz instead of 1000. I assume batt life would be longer at stock speed. Try an app like juicedefender or similar for longer battery life, that will sort much more effect than changing rom. Cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't think of installing juice defender. Instead of increasing battery life it rather decreases it by high usage!! Used it for about 2 months.. uninstalled it and felt much better, smooth battery..
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using xda premium
I prefer CM7
i think CM7 is better
techno-update said:
I have used both, and I can't say for sure, but I think CM7 is faster.
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Click to collapse
me too,i have used both,i think CM7 is better.
now i use ligux, nice too.
Hey fellow XDAers
I'm currently running LeeDroids awesome GSM Rom, with his Kernel and a lot of others the stock speeds are 384mhz - 1.51ghz (using LagFree governor).
I'm just wondering is there any point of having it boosted from 1.18ghz to 1.51ghz or is it just overkill? I can see the Sense UI is slightly smoother, but I'm not really sure how the battery life is affected by the OC.
If I wanted to save battery life, would it be best to reduce it back to 1.18ghz or use a different governor (and what one?)
Thanks in advance,
Louis
Gsm and cdma processors default speeds are different?
overclocked
lhayati said:
Hey fellow XDAers
I'm currently running LeeDroids awesome GSM Rom, with his Kernel and a lot of others the stock speeds are 384mhz - 1.51ghz (using LagFree governor).
I'm just wondering is there any point of having it boosted from 1.18ghz to 1.51ghz or is it just overkill? I can see the Sense UI is slightly smoother, but I'm not really sure how the battery life is affected by the OC.
If I wanted to save battery life, would it be best to reduce it back to 1.18ghz or use a different governor (and what one?)
Thanks in advance,
Louis
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes i read overclocking do take a toll on ur battery just like an engine more horsepower/cylinder more gas lol if u really need the extra speed try juce defender or something to help save you your battery while over clocking. Hope this helps
I keep mine at 1.2ghz max as it is fast enough like that, and makes the battery last longer.
Yeah point off overclocking is that we don't need buy an new device to get some extra speed. But I think on 1.2 it runs fine to.
No sorry, I think I worded that incorrectly. I mean with custom Kernels they usually are 1.51ghz by default.
oohaylima said:
Gsm and cdma processors default speeds are different?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh and do people know if by default it's 1.18 or 1.21? I know it's not much difference, but i'm a little ocd
lhayati said:
Oh and do people know if by default it's 1.18 or 1.21? I know it's not much difference, but i'm a little ocd
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1.18ghz /10char
If you want insane speed is what you gain tho you don't gain better battery life More speed the less life... . Both cores running all the time will eat it up.
If you push it too high you can burn it up.. Depends on what you want outta things...
Well the second core isn't so active as far as I know. It has been more designed to jump in when needed.
But reason most custom roms include an overclock off 1.51Ghz is because the cpu was designed for it, HTC just under clocked it, but in the HTC Sensation XE they not underclocked it.
lhayati said:
No sorry, I think I worded that incorrectly. I mean with custom Kernels they usually are 1.51ghz by default.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, I see now. I get what you're saying now. Overclocking is good, but becomes detrimental when the freq starts sucking the life out the battery.
Aren't we underclocked from the jump. I though Chad Goodman said the actual processor speed is 1.5 by default. Per Qualcomm specs at least.
Sent from my Clean Rom'd HTC Flyer using XDA Premium.
In short, yes.
OC'ing makes your phone much faster and, also helps out with benchmarks. However, battery saving is not an issue either. Most CPU control apps will allow you to set a different frequency when the phone is closed so it saves batter. For example, I'm on zr3d right now and my normal profile is 1.7x ghz. When the screen is off, it scales conservatively from 192 to 540 mhz. Gives better performance and better battery.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using XDA Premium HD app
jdeoxys said:
In short, yes.
OC'ing makes your phone much faster and, also helps out with benchmarks. However, battery saving is not an issue either. Most CPU control apps will allow you to set a different frequency when the phone is closed so it saves batter. For example, I'm on zr3d right now and my normal profile is 1.7x ghz. When the screen is off, it scales conservatively from 192 to 540 mhz. Gives better performance and better battery.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol That will save you life when your screen is off but not when your running a game or hammerin away at stuff
OC beyond Quallcoms spec 1.53ghz is pointless and good for nothing but killing your battery. There are a great many here who gush over high benchmarks but that means absolutely nothing in "real world" performance no matter how much they tell themselves that it does. Just sayin....
Thanks for all your reply's
But for the average use (browsing, video streaming, bit of gaming, messaging) what should I set as my max OC as? And what is the best governor for battery + performance.
troyboytn said:
OC beyond Quallcoms spec 1.53ghz is pointless and good for nothing but killing your battery. There are a great many here who gush over high benchmarks but that means absolutely nothing in "real world" performance no matter how much they tell themselves that it does. Just sayin....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope.jpeg. I was playing canabalt the other day at 1.5X ghz. It was the tiniest bit choppy so I upclocked to 1.7. Perfect performance and, also real world performance I believe(actually it's a game so its not real life).
Best settings I'd say would be 1.5 ghz on interactive/intellianthrax guvner while screenon and .5 or .3 ghz conservative/powersave while screen off. Or, for heavy stuff, go all the way up to 1.7/1.8 ghz.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using XDA Premium HD app
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/overclock-android-device,review-1762.html#xtor=RSS-998
Opinions from people who really know? I can't imagine that overclocking increases battery life.
It doesn't. At least from my understanding. In fact as I understand it running at higher clock speeds would decrease your battery life no? I usually under clock, so...
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
The theory is that overclocking allows you to complete processes quicker, which in turn allows the processor to go back to a idle/deep sleep faster. In practice it doesn't really work that way though.
ryude said:
The theory is that overclocking allows you to complete processes quicker, which in turn allows the processor to go back to a idle/deep sleep faster. In practice it doesn't really work that way though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
doesn't the increase in voltage also come into effect?
They did talk a little about undervolting to increase battery life. Personally I don't worry about it. I'm not using my phone to sort out heavy algorithims at the moment, so running how it does is fast enough for what I use it at. Just found the article interesting.
K Rich said:
doesn't the increase in voltage also come into effect?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They say the undervolting on lower clocks should balance out the higher voltage on overclocks.
stalked_r/t said:
They did talk a little about undervolting to increase battery life. Personally I don't worry about it. I'm not using my phone to sort out heavy algorithims at the moment, so running how it does is fast enough for what I use it at. Just found the article interesting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Undervolting rarely makes a difference on mobile SoC's, but on the desktop/laptop CPUs you can really save a ton of power with undervolting and underclocking.
Why to overclock and understand it?
Here is a good reason to know what you are doing..
and the battery avg's lasting at least through the day, but most of the time, I have a charger near me...
EDITED: because it won't accept my screenshots HTML Probably cause I have n00b status on this account name.
AnTuTu Benchmark v.2.8
Total Score: 7446
RAM: 1201
CPU Int: 2264
CPU Float: 1767
2D: 295
3D: 1148
Database: 450
SD W 11.8MB 118
SD R >50MB 203
1600mhz
2012-05-23 18:17
You can view this SN here: Screenshot
Fluxi Kernel/My own OOM settings/AOKP/my own XXTweaker settings
The article says its not the actual overclocking that is saving battery life. When you put SetCPU on your phone not only can you overlock but you can underclock and set different voltages. I'm not 100% sure how the voltages play into it but you can set the processor to run at really low speeds during certain acts ei. when the screen is off, or any other time you don't necessarily need alot of power. That's and I changed all the voltages (I got them from a post where the guy knew what he was doing and tested them). I get almost 2 days moderate browsing, apps and text. If I talk alot or use my hotspot I only get 1.5 days. It is a little time consuming to get everything just right but when you do you really see it.
icyhandlz said:
The article says its not the actual overclocking that is saving battery life. When you put SetCPU on your phone not only can you overlock but you can underclock and set different voltages.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This isn't a SetCpu feature there are other programs that can do this as well. It just so happens SetCpu has it built into the program. I bought SetCpu back in my Atrix days and loved it so it does work great for a simple tuning program.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Many of the kernels these days have their own tweaks and mod apps as well
Sent from my SGII AOKP Fluxi i777 running Beastmode OOM using Xparent Sky Blue Tapatalk 2
I'm running a kernerl and a custom ROM that allows me to underclock and overclock.
I tried it out both ways and the battery lasted for almost the same amount as on the stock option. As I tend to play games a lot on my phone, the underclocking ran into some issues with stuttering and sometimes force close of a couple of games.
Personally, I've never been a big fan of either .