This thread is meant for discussion of the in progress Kit Kat port for the Nook Color.
Updates
If you want updates on the progress you can check this post and fattire's post immediately folllowing this. We'll both be posting updates periodically here.
You can also follow me on twitter @dalingrin
You can follow fattire @ fat__tire
Please don't ask me for ETAs or status updates. I will post them as I post them
Source code
Device source code will be temporarily hosted on fattire's github @ http://github.com/fat-tire/android_device_bn_encore
Things to expect
Nothing
Things not to expect(for now)
*Fully accelerated composition of the UI - this is not likely and may be dependent on 3rd party closed source EGL libs getting updated
*Accelerated video playback and overlay - This has changed quite a bit and may take some time to get working
*Polished release soon - Don't ask, don't tell
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UPDATE 11/24/13 -- So CM 11.0 is out and building nicely on Nook Color. Look here for the link to the build instructions. If you are building CM 11, you will probably want to use cm-11.0 as the name of the branch when initializing.
STATE OF THE UM, STATE OF THINGS
So I was curious how many noob types, who always beg for nightlies and builds and stuff-- I wondered if they (you?) could be encouraged to learn and get involved in the process of building Android. Which, as I've expressed in an infamous ramble, I think is important to the future of our culture and how it it deals with technology-- and who will control it. So I asked normal non-dev people to try building-- to give it a shot.
I think the experiment, which quickly became OUR experiment, has been a massive success. Far beyond what I'd imagined. Hundreds of people have gotten off their asses-- many of whom had clearly never touched Linux or a compiler before, and most were successful in building CM9/ICS from scratch.
That is not a small deal. And no, it's not just following a list of instructions by rote. People had to think about and solve a million different problems-- installing VMs, updating packages, choosing linux distributions, understanding the command line, etc. Scary stuff if you've never done any of these things before.
So it's been a month or so now, and I think we've reached the stage where aside from minor enhancements and fixes, the build looks pretty sweet. The major stuff is there and working. Yeah, DSP/hardware-accelerated video is something we're going to have to wait for TI to add to their omap3 repositories, and there are likely other things wrong. I've heard rumors of sleep-of-deaths or quicker-than-usual battery consumption, etc. There are numerous things to be fixed, but these are all issues that may or may not be worked out over time... As major new enhancements come to the CyanogenMod project, they will come to the encore version, and your build, automatically.
No secret links this time. As before, I'll spell out the bottom line explicitly for ya here in the middle somewhere. And I'll even underline it.
I hereby decree, in so far I am able, my humble request for "no posted builds".... is ended.
Back to your regularly scheduled forum. Go to it.
I encourage you to pass any valuable improvements you make to the code "upstream" via the gerrit review system at review.cyanogenmod.com for inclusion in the main CM project. You already know how it works. And some, God love ya, have already started. Not everything you submit will get accepted, but it's a good way to "pay it forward". And in the same vein, consider helping someone on IRC. Or be a big brother or big sister. Or donate blood. And to quote Steven Soderbergh, or whomever, you don't have to brush ALL your teeth, just the ones you want to keep.
Thanks as always to dalingrin, keyodi, nemith, verygreen, arcee, deeper-blue, unforgiven512, the gang on irc, and the CM Team generally for keeping this fun. And thank YOU for the lulz, Internet.
ft
Remember, there's NOTHING quite like running your own build, piping-hot, and fresh from the oven.
----
I am also releasing a first pass at a how-to-build walkthrough. It is available here:
walkthru (rough draft)
This doc will be updated and evolve with your input. It is meant to help people feel confident that they can build an operating system from scratch, and hopefully encourage them to participate, learn, and even make contributions.
If you need assistance, you must rely on each other.
Here is an equally unreliable clockworkmod, v5.5.0.4:
uRecRam
You may be asking, where is the issue queue? There is no issue queue. You are on your own here.
Recent automated builds (unofficial, unsanctioned, untested, uneverything else) from Forum member Samiam303 is here.
-----------everything below this line is sorta old and outdated--------------
So there's apparently been some bit of controversy related to my request that people try to build themselves rather than someone posting a pre-made update.zip file. Let me go more into detail about what this experiment is about, at least from my perspective. But first, I do want to thank everyone for respecting the request so far-- I know it's not the traditional way of doing things, but I think it's been very fruitful and personally rewarding to see so many people who have never built jack before take on a project like this and be successful. I've received an enormous number of messages, both PMs here as well as in IRC, to the effect that this finally got them to try to build for the first time. It's introduced many people to actually using Linux, others may be having their first encounters with the command line, or git, or looking at source code, or learning about the build process in general. Whether or not the majority go on to become "devs" is irrelevant-- what I have been trying to encourage is curiosity and experimentation, and most of all a deeper understanding that your phones and "ereaders" are in fact full-fledged computers, not "appliances" or limited-purpose devices that others get to control. It's your property, and it can do a lot. There is an effort underway to discourage people from thinking of their devices this way or discouraging them from experimenting and learning with them. This IMO is an extremely harmful practice-- take a look at Cory Doctorow's recent speech on this subject. I could go on and on, but it seems important enough to me to make this request, and hopefully some of you are even subconsciously appreciating the awesomeness of what potential these general-purpose gadgets will have on society. So that's a lot of philosophizing, but there you go. And while I'm not naive enough to think that plenty of people aren't trading the file "under the table" at it were, for a variety of reasons, I do think that in a way they're cheating themselves; those who give building a shot are finding that learning is a reward unto itself. Those who are persistent, who pay attention, who don't give up, not only get a build at the end, plus the experience of doing it, plus the knowledge they picked up along the way-- they also discover things in the most unexpected of places, as in the link in the period at the end of the third sentence in this post. And while there's been some discussion of what a "dev" is and whether or not this is a gateway to bigger and better things, all I can assume is that if 5-10% of the people who built are intrigued enough to take it a step further, and maybe a step further than that... then we might end up with some new devs who appreciate the value of open source and whose contributions we can look forward to with eagerness in the future. Plus-- it's more fun this way.
I do hope this sounds good to everyone. If you understand what this post is about- no need for long, drawn-out elaborate responses... a simple "I got it" will do.
More source is forthcoming... Thanks to dalingrin, arcee, keyodi, nemith, Scepterr, unforgiven512, etc. Oh, and shh.
--------------------------
update-cm-9.0-0-encore-emmc-sneakpeek2-fullofbugs.zip
md5: 536d589c59ea5711a17a3d976f0638fa
update-cm-9.0-0-encore-emmc-sneakpeek1-fullofbugs.zip
md5: 85294ad91e2601beb737cf723b9fb9d6
(note this URL is likely to change)
Note: You are advised NOT to try to install this. This update.zip will **overwrite** as in erase whatever data you have on your emmc, so if you are trying this, you are advised to back it up first so you can recover. Install entirely at your own risk, and do a factory wipe first. This software is likely to be terrible and cause problems including permanent data loss, hair loss, and/or the destruction of your property and the death of your pets. You assume all risks involved in your use-- or even attempted use-- of this file. I disclaim any and all responsibility for your decision to try it.
*** Really. This build is buggy. It is a work-in-progress. It is only a snapshot of where things stand right now, and it's possible it'll never go further. ***
here's what's working:
* bluetooth (pairing/file transfer only confirmed)
* wifi (full it seems but it's brand-new to the kernel so who knows how stable anything is)
* backlight
* accelerometer
* improved stability (but not perfect)
* gapps
* setcpu/overclock
* real data usage info (not stubbed out)
* battery levels/charging
* physical menu button
* touchscreen
* 3d games
* usb gadget in kernel (ie, mounting your sdcard to your computer)
* screenshots
* build system (to auto-create update.zips)
* sound
(note: for all the above features, you must build yourself! See below for rationale & more)
For sure not working yet:
* video
* full 2d acceleration (esp on complex web pages)
* and much much more
These things may/may not be added at some point in the future. You should have no expectations that they will. Anyone who asks for an ETA for something or other gets collectively stoned by the crowd.
I'm sometimes on #nookcolor in freenode.
Thanks to keyodi, unforgiven512, arcee, toastfch, d0nk`, dalingrin, nemith, the rest of the cm team/TD, and anyone else who I've forgotten. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
MUST READ:
Why there have been no additional zips posted lately.
How to use Gerrit (the CM9 review system)
how to make an update.zip
[*]beagleboard patches
Again, don't install this. And please don't "rom" this (as in change the font or background) and then ask for donations for your "hard work". This is a preview of a work in progress, not a final product, and it's not meant for people to use day-to-day. Don't be a ****. Thanks.
--------------------screenshots---------------------
About screen, wifi scanning, & bluetooth....
I'm no dev so can't help.
But thanks a ton. You'll give a new life to the NC!
this device looks sexy, how is performance(compared to the first honeycomb port) and any ideas on how we can get off the legacy hack?
luigi90210 said:
this device looks sexy, how is performance(compared to the first honeycomb port) and any ideas on how we can get off the legacy hack?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Performance is hard to tell without any apps on it really and with the legacy hack being goofy. Dalingrin's going to fix the ts driver tomorrow he says. It needs to be updated for anything close to usability. I think though it's not too far off from cm7 but again *REALLY* hard to say without having something to run on it.
I did notice that if you put a background on the screen it only stays for like second before disappearing. No idea what that's all about.
Update:
So update on progress tonight
* misc fixes
* got wifi working for keyodi
* got glx working for keyodi
* fixed bluetooth pairing again. Ran into trouble trying to send a file connection refused (111) or something like that.
* got freecpu working, needed to chmod 4755 /system/xbin/su and also add Superuser.apk-- but now overclocked to Dalingrin's cm7 settings. It feels pretty good.
(that's actually set to highest stepping but it's not currently maxed out)
* quadrant runs-- looks fast to me-- but bombed out on the network part at the end:
E/c*.a*.q*.c*.c*.Abstrac*( 4126): Failed to retrieve benchmark score
E/c*.a*.q*.c*.c*.Abstrac*( 4126): java.net.SocketException: socket failed: EAFNOSUPPORT (Address family not supported by protocol)
So I don't have a score. Not that Quadrant is particularly valuable. but the staircase works, the planets spin, etc.
Prolly won't work on it most of tomorrow.. just sayin'. Dalingrin will tho hopefully and keyodi too.
BTW, dalingrin-- temporary fix for wifi: assuming you use WPA-PSK, push this into /data/misc/wifi/wpa_supplicant.conf as the default in the device needs to be fixed manana:
Code:
ctrl_interface=tiwlan0
update_config=1
network={
ssid="your_ssid"
psk="your_password_in_plaintext"
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
priority=1
}
Finally, if recovery.c tanks out, it's the last commit I made tonight. Sorry. I didn't think it was going to build it. Just back out changes to that file.
Yay!
Ian
sent from my ereader
Fantastic work. Didn't thought quadrant would run fast this soon. If wifi, touchscreen and 3d work, we have the most important things working (save for ui acceleration). I don't even care much about sound.
Looking forward to the first kangs =)~
Sweet! Lookin' pretty good. I hope the binaries for the UI acceleration get updated. Has the nook tablet source and files dropped yet? I seem to remember the NC and nook tablet having similar video hardware. Could be wrong. Are those binaries in that tablet as well?
dalingrin said:
Things to expect
Nothing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Noted, but that said I love this kind of technical tinkering and knowing this is being done is awesome. Looks pretty slick, I look forward to seeing how this develops.
no test zip? I would like to test, Im not one of those people that wont reprt back, i will tell what i find wrong
just wondering, will this truetouch driver update (https://github.com/martinezjavier) be incorporated and will it improve the screen sensitivity, esp. around the edge, for the nook? thx.
i'm excited!!
thanks in advance for all the hard work!!
I've only just started noticing the lack of activity in this device's community, so while I would love to tinker around with ICS on my Nook I understand how it may not a very big priority for developers. Do what you guys can with the knowledge, technology, and time you have and maybe I'll get new software to play with, but maybe I won't. This device has already been made a far better device than B&N intended it to be anyway.
Thanks for all the current and future work you guys devoted to this device
Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk
Whoareyou said:
no test zip? I would like to test, Im not one of those people that wont reprt back, i will tell what i find wrong
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Finding whats wrong isn't a problem right now, which is exactly why they didnt release flashable zip file. They did however post a link to the source, which if you know how to compile that, you know how to get it running on your device and may actually be of some use to the devs in getting other things working.
gamer.pro.2000 said:
Sweet! Lookin' pretty good. I hope the binaries for the UI acceleration get updated. Has the nook tablet source and files dropped yet? I seem to remember the NC and nook tablet having similar video hardware. Could be wrong. Are those binaries in that tablet as well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The nook tablet uses an OMAP4 es ("enhanced security") from Texas Instruments that has a signed bootloader, which is checked on boot at the hardware level. The signed bootloader (u-boot) in turn checks the signature of the kernel and the ramdisk. Which means, fwiw, that you can't easily replace the bootloader or kernel (or basic startup sequence in the ramdisk) without it being signed by Barnes & Noble.
That said, people have run stuff "around" the existing kernel/ramdisk as nemith has done with cwm. Or you can just run apps you want within userspace (ie, using their kernel/ramdisk) by rooting Android with Zergrush and then installing the market or sideloading or whatever as several threads on this site tell you how to do. There were also several articles on this recently.
Interestingly, the signed kernel does load unsigned kernel modules, meaning a specially-crafted module can theoretically be written to "kexec" (ie, run) a 2nd, unsigned kernel/ramdisk "from the inside" of the kernel. That "second boot" possibility would facilitate the running of alternate OSes, and there have been attempts to do this with the Motorola Milestone. And finally, if anyone finds an exploit in uboot (such as improper validation of input, say while it reads bootcnt or bcb files or something), this too might also be another way to get a "normal", unsigned kernel/ramdisk to run, and therefore ICS would be a lot easier and control would be restored to the owner of the hardware.
That said, a philosophical opposition to DRM has lead a lot of people I've talked to to just say "F the nook tablet" and not purchase one in the first place. Dunno.
unsivil_audio said:
Finding whats wrong isn't a problem right now, which is exactly why they didnt release flashable zip file. They did however post a link to the source, which if you know how to compile that, you know how to get it running on your device and may actually be of some use to the devs in getting other things working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know how to, but my new laptop (HP Pavilion G6) dosent like linux well, and i cant get wifi to connect, networks show up, but it never connects So, i cant d/l the source ((
Great work so far.
Umm... is there a donation address set up so I can send a touch of... encouragement? Stimulus? Call it what you want. Beer fund.
fattire said:
The nook tablet uses an OMAP4 es ("enhanced security") from Texas Instruments that has a signed bootloader, which is checked on boot at the hardware level. The signed bootloader (u-boot) in turn checks the signature of the kernel and the ramdisk. Which means, fwiw, that you can't easily replace the bootloader or kernel (or basic startup sequence in the ramdisk) without it being signed by Barnes & Noble.
That said, people have run stuff "around" the existing kernel/ramdisk as nemith has done with cwm. Or you can just run apps you want within userspace (ie, using their kernel/ramdisk) by rooting Android with Zergrush and then installing the market or sideloading or whatever as several threads on this site tell you how to do. There were also several articles on this recently.
Interestingly, the signed kernel does load unsigned kernel modules, meaning a specially-crafted module can theoretically be written to "kexec" (ie, run) a 2nd, unsigned kernel/ramdisk "from the inside" of the kernel. That "second boot" possibility would facilitate the running of alternate OSes, and there have been attempts to do this with the Motorola Milestone. And finally, if anyone finds an exploit in uboot (such as improper validation of input, say while it reads bootcnt or bcb files or something), this too might also be another way to get a "normal", unsigned kernel/ramdisk to run, and therefore ICS would be a lot easier and control would be restored to the owner of the hardware.
That said, a philosophical opposition to DRM has lead a lot of people I've talked to to just say "F the nook tablet" and not purchase one in the first place. Dunno.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
there have been talks about kexec on the nook tablet but from last i read is that kexec was disabled in the kernel so they were looking into 2nd init
ON TOPIC: i would donate if there is a donate link set up
Speaking for myself, I ask that you consider donating to the Electronic Frontier Foundation -- Eff.org -- they help keep our right to hack/jailbreak/root our own hardware safe and legal when corporations or government (usually under heavy lobbying from corps) try to infringe on it. And to that end, they also take up the legal defense of folks who are threatened or sued unfairly, such as just a few days ago with the security blogger who posted a spyware/rootkit warning and was hit with an intimidating takedown legal threat by the company he outed. They also fight laws that would censor or wall off parts of the Internet.
Donations to the EFF are tax deductable for US residents as well. They are one of the few organizations concerned with defending the Internet and digital-related interests of normal citizens and consumers, and a donation to them is really doing yourself a big favor.
Plus I think they'll send you a hat.
/end of pitch.
fattire said:
Speaking for myself, I ask that you consider donating to the Electronic Frontier Foundation -- Eff.org -- they help keep our right to hack/jailbreak/root our own hardware safe and legal when corporations or government (usually under heavy lobbying from corps) try to infringe on it. And to that end, they also take up the legal defense of folks who are threatened or sued unfairly, such as just a few days ago with the security blogger who posted a spyware/rootkit warning and was hit with an intimidating takedown legal threat by the company he outed. They also fight laws that would censor or wall off parts of the Internet.
Donations to the EFF are tax deductable for US residents as well. They are one of the few organizations concerned with defending the Internet and digital-related interests of normal citizens and consumers, and a donation to them is really doing yourself a big favor.
Plus I think they'll send you a hat.
/end of pitch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im gonna look more into that but ill probably donate to that foundation
thanks for the info and i wish you luck with ics fattire
Related
or does anyone else feel like we dont have enough aosp love? I mean we have miui, cm7, had decks(went ghostbusters on us) and empiire(heard he got grounded for molesting his hard drive.) I understand theirs still kinks to be worked out but everything is Sense. Just wanted to see who else felt this way. PLEASE DONT COME IN AND START A PARAGRAPH WAR, I read enough in high school.
Temari x Shikamaru
Evervolv exists.
il Duce said:
Evervolv exists.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Link please. Ive been hunting it.
Temari x Shikamaru
Talked to shift on twitter yesterday, he said CM7 is being worked on. I honestly think what it is that people are happy with their phones just the way they are, so it brings less crowd. While it is smaller than the original Evo, there is still a pretty big following. Plus, this is just a US phone, so when comparing the Sensation with us is like apple and oranges. We just got mike and androidrevolution! Which is great.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
PatrickHuey said:
Talked to shift on twitter yesterday, he said CM7 is being worked on. I honestly think what it is that people are happy with their phones just the way they are, so it brings less crowd. While it is smaller than the original Evo, there is still a pretty big following. Plus, this is just a US phone, so when comparing the Sensation with us is like apple and oranges. We just got mike and androidrevolution! Which is great.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not just US. Theres gsm models for overseas.
Temari x Shikamaru
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Can the gsm users get some aosp love? Any roms?
Sent from my Evo 3D GSM...bring on the AOSP!!!
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This man is right. Most AOSP is done by Cyanogenmod devs and kanged from there. I can guarantee you when they come out with a CM7 RC, there will magically be other AOSP roms.
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your right. I forgot about that.
Temari x Shikamaru
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn. Such a long read. It was good though.
Temari x Shikamaru
knowledge561 said:
Damn. Such a long read. It was good though.
Temari x Shikamaru
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, I originally had hoped for a much shorter post. I always try to get the thoughts in my head out "on paper" in the shortest, most efficient and least complex manner. This is my vision of a more free, "open source" world though. I think the freedom of information could be applied to many facets of society that would create a better future for all of us, and still preserve the competition that drives a more peaceful, better, cheaper, faster world. Sorry again!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is that people don't always give credit where credit is due, which is one of the reasons some people don't like sharing stuff. I mean, let's say I made this awesome mod and let everybody use it. Then some kitchen dev comes along, kangs the **** out of it, doesn't mention me in his rom, and slaps a gigantic DONATE button at the bottom of his signature. It's frustrating.
Now I'm all about open source. I won't use a rom that doesn't post the source. That's the exact reason I won't use MIUI.
SolsticeZero said:
The problem is that people don't always give credit where credit is due, which is one of the reasons some people don't like sharing stuff. I mean, let's say I made this awesome mod and let everybody use it. Then some kitchen dev comes along, kangs the **** out of it, doesn't mention me in his rom, and slaps a gigantic DONATE button at the bottom of his signature. It's frustrating.
Now I'm all about open source. I won't use a rom that doesn't post the source. That's the exact reason I won't use MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I fully understand your frustration. I am a software engineer too so I know what you are going through. I have not yet begun developing for Android, but will. There is a little bit of a problem here that could easily be solved, and the community has a responsibility to protect the intellectual property rights that you and every other developer like you is entitled to. In fact it is a right that is protected by the integrity of the constitution of the united states, and many other countries and law enforcement around the world. This is a failure that not just developers, mods, and admins have, but a responsibility and failure that every user at xda shares no matter who they are.
First off; not to offend any MIUI developers that may be watching, but if you are developing for Android you need to be using a license that is open, and your source needs to be open too. This is especially true if you are using xda as a distribution medium, but sadly while xda has said they encourage, and want every development to be open source they are not forcing the matter. This is a failure I think. It also makes MIUI look suspicious too, as there isn't a way to verify if their source is uniquely theirs'. I personally believe xda should not allow software that is not open source to be distributed. If google didn't keep the open source principle when they acquired Android roms like MIUI would NOT exist! It is highly unethical to take the base ROM from google because it is open source, and then close the source. That is wrong wrong wrong! It is also illegal! You can not redistribute the Android OS even if you have made changes and then close the source and not maintain the software license google has on place.
Second; I believe as a user of xda it is your duty to maintain the integrity of the principles of xda, and Android. Don't support closed source works, voice your disgust so that xda sees the will of its users, that the over whelming majority wants things to remain open source. Tattle your ass off if someone has broke the copyright law and used someone's work without permission and credit.
It is important to keep both xda and Android running on the same principles it started with. Don't let this keep happening guys! This is very serious, a lot of developers are breaking the law doing what they are doing!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or learn to code yourself and create roms from the ground up. Most devs do what they do for themselves first, and allow us to ride on their coattails. Not a bad ride if your like me and have no coding skills. Otherwise, I doubt your plea is going to convince a dev to do anything more or less then they do now, unless it interest them personally.
I do agree with you though. I'm coming from Android on the Touch Pro 2 where a small group of devs are building EVERYTHING from scratch. From the modems to the light sensor. It's a huge job done out of love for the hardware, for fun, and a passion for coding.
knowledge561 said:
Link please. Ive been hunting it.
Temari x Shikamaru
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
he links only via twitter posts and in his IRC, send him a tweet. iirc still in beta, but he does some nice ROMs
Serren said:
Or learn to code yourself and create roms from the ground up. Most devs do what they do for themselves first, and allow us to ride on their coattails. Not a bad ride if your like me and have no coding skills. Otherwise, I doubt your plea is going to convince a dev to do anything more or less then they do now, unless it interest them personally.
I do agree with you though. I'm coming from Android on the Touch Pro 2 where a small group of devs are building EVERYTHING from scratch. From the modems to the light sensor. It's a huge job done out of love for the hardware, for fun, and a passion for coding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your comment and support. I don't disagree with you. If you steal a loaf of bread to feed yourself, is it any less of a crime than to steal a loaf of bread to feed you and your family and friends? Or is it the same or worse?
I think either way it isn't ethical. People need to think less about themselves I think. I must reiterate and clarify so I am not misunderstood. I don't think it is inherently bad to be using a ROM as your base, but it is wrong to then close the source of a previously open piece of work and/or not maintain the original license, and give credit in every spot it should be given in. That would include its distribution, the license, the source code itself, and any where else that you put your own version, app info, and copyright notice. Am I wrong?
Sad Panda said:
I fully understand your frustration. I am a software engineer too so I know what you are going through. I have not yet begun developing for Android, but will. There is a little bit of a problem here that could easily be solved, and the community has a responsibility to protect the intellectual property rights that you and every other developer like you is entitled to. In fact it is a right that is protected by the integrity of the constitution of the united states, and many other countries and law enforcement around the world. This is a failure that not just developers, mods, and admins have, but a responsibility and failure that every user at xda shares no matter who they are.
First off; not to offend any MIUI developers that may be watching, but if you are developing for Android you need to be using a license that is open, and your source needs to be open too. This is especially true if you are using xda as a distribution medium, but sadly while xda has said they encourage, and want every development to be open source they are not forcing the matter. This is a failure I think. It also makes MIUI look suspicious too, as there isn't a way to verify if their source is uniquely theirs'. I personally believe xda should not allow software that is not open source to be distributed. If google didn't keep the open source principle when they acquired Android roms like MIUI would NOT exist! It is highly unethical to take the base ROM from google because it is open source, and then close the source. That is wrong wrong wrong! It is also illegal! You can not redistribute the Android OS even if you have made changes and then close the source and not maintain the software license google has on place.
Second; I believe as a user of xda it is your duty to maintain the integrity of the principles of xda, and Android. Don't support closed source works, voice your disgust so that xda sees the will of its users, that the over whelming majority wants things to remain open source. Tattle your ass off if someone has broke the copyright law and used someone's work without permission and credit.
It is important to keep both xda and Android running on the same principles it started with. Don't let this keep happening guys! This is very serious, a lot of developers are breaking the law doing what they are doing!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me preface this by saying that I agree with you..
However android is meant to be open source, the license that they use (Apache) does not require it.. The reason they chose the Apache license was to give people the freedom to choose (their words). So technically people like miui don't have to post source for anything other than kernel (which is GPL).
This link has some good info on it.
http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html
But even CM doesn't have to provide source, which in recent history they haven't while starting builds.. We can't demand source, when the licensing doesn't demand, but that doesn't mean we still can't prove direct kang. The reason I have android over anything else is the freedom it gives and the open nature of it.
Edit: and you should always credit someone if you are using their work, and also have their permission. I was referring to general source from android itself, not from each other.
_______________________
No d3rp left behind - ranger61878
The problem is, nobody wants to start a ROM from the ground up, and the people that do are already involved into team projects (CM/MIUI). It takes a long time to create a ROM from the ground up that utilizes all of a phone's hardware properly. Look how long it took CM to get 4G onto the EVO 4G, and that was a team of highly skilled individuals practically reverse engineering code to do it.
Now imagine all of the copy and paste kitchen users here trying to accomplish that. It just won't happen lol.
That's why we have pretty much the same thing in different colors. It kind of sucks, but hey, HTC did the majority of the work, and if something already works good enough, the average person will be fine with and use that.
Yeah, it does slow down the evolution and innovation of Android as a whole, but you have to put some of the blame on OEMs for pushing out 45 different phones a year. Nobody is going to be encouraged to create something from the ground up for a phone that will be replaced and obsolete by the time they're finished.
The G1 is the prime example of a great phone that got tons of developer support, tons of new things, and tons of unique ROMs. But that was the beginning, and I doubt that's ever going to happen again.
HTC all but pushed this EVO 3D out, and forgot about it. They've released a good 19 phones since then at the rate they're going, most of us will have moved on to the next one in a few months. Sad but true.
That is why I have stuck with and will probably continue to use a Stock ROM, modified to my liking and stripped. There isn't much else you can hope for. 3D has failed to really take off like HTC and the rest of us wanted. There is no motivation for any of the teams out there to focus on reverse engineering their ROMs to use 3D. MIUI to this day hasn't bothered with WiMAX and with good reason. Sprint all about blatantly announced its slow death in favor of LTE. It would have been a waste of time for the MIUI team to implement it. Kudos to Team Win and CM for gracing us with it on the EVO 4G. But, hindsight has probably made people mad that all of their time and energy went into something that's getting canned.
Alot of good points freeza. These are paragraphs I like to read.
Temari x Shikamaru
Cyanogenmod 9 Codename: Nebula for the YP-G1
Code:
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
/*
* Your warranty is now void.
*
* I am not responsible for bricked devices, dead SD cards,
* thermonuclear war, or you getting fired because the alarm app failed. Please
* do some research if you have any concerns about features included in this ROM
* before flashing it! YOU are choosing to make these modifications, and if
* you point the finger at me for messing up your device, I will laugh at you.
*/
Hey guys here's what you have been waiting for. The unofficial official release of CM9 for the Samsung Galaxy Player/S Wifi 4.0 (a.k.a YP-G1). The TeamSupernova is proud to be the first of porting it.(with some exterior help) It is built on the latest commits from the stable CM9 4.0.4 source tree. This rom isn't different from any other stock CM9 but it's more streamlined and it's more official to release it like this.
Here's the context of how we have made it possible (thanks Hanthesolo for this story):
Firstly, excuse my cheesy biblical writing, I just have always wanted to write something in that format .
In the beginning (march 2012), there was hanthesolo. He saw the Galaxy Player forums, and all that he saw was good. This man started creating new work for the Gplayer forums, a and gained a small following. There was just one issue that concerned him: NO ICS!
In light of this, this man created a thread, to collect all ICS development, into one easy-to-read forum. Other began to follow him, zaclimon, Ijimaniac, and several others. Ideas flew fast and furious, but hope was waning quickly. A kernel would have to be created from scratch, a monumental task that had not been undertaken by any man so far.
All was quiet for awhile, and people began to slowly fade out, until only hanthesolo and zaclimon remained, slowly trading ideas and guesses over several weeks. Then a new disciple arrived: neyodmium. This korean (?) developer brought a different kind of kernel experience to the trio, and development began in earnest, with zaclimon and neyodmium trading work, while hanthesolo contributed where he could. One unsurmountable issue arose: this magnificient kernel, the likes of which had never lit up these forums before, would merely boot into recovery, not into Android.
Then Oisis came around, hearing our desperate cries for help. Like a moses, he guided his flock in the right direction, squashing issue after issue, until a monumental day arrived: August 13, 2012. On this day, ICS was finally created in Cyanogen's own image, and it was good.
Then increased development began, with hanthesolo squashing CM9 bugs, while zaclimon, neyodmium, and Oisis working feverishly on the kernel.
But an issue occurred, a wrench in the works. Thine enemy's name is GL, SuperNOva. GL would not cooperate, acting as a barrier between usable ICS, and frustrated efforts to fix it. But one day, the magical variable was flipped, and the builds booted! About this time there was a github mishap involving a bad I9000 push that stopped things for about a week, but that's another story.
What happens next? I dunno, but I will update this story when it happens .
NOTE: This does NOT represent anyone's political or religious standpoint, or the way anyone is viewed. It was created as a humorous way to explain our situation to users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What's working:
Boot
Wifi
GPS
ADB
Accelerometer
Sound (voodoo module is included inside the kernel)
H/W acceleration (75/80% complete, video acceleration missing)
Deep sleep (MUCH better battery life than older ICS builds)
Native USB mount storage
FM Radio (download the spirit fm radio app from the store)
OC up to 1.2 gHz.
You tell me
What's not working:
Bluetooth
Camera (rendering is pretty crappy)
Recovery (well it does work but it can't reboot correctly to the system)
US home button (I do have a workaround for the moment)
Built-in CPU tuner (for OC/UC)
You tell me
Changelog:
Code:
Beta 1:
Initial release
Instructions
Note: Please backup your efs in case of something goes wrong (the zip should backup it but we're never too sure) To do so execute this command:
Code:
dd if=/dev/block/stl3 of=/sdcard/efs.rfs
You will need heimdall for this, if you don't know how to use it here's a guide on how-to:
DISCLAIMER: if you don't know how to use heimdall to reflash to stock (if needed) then you shouldn't flash this rom.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1922461
1. Unzip the package which contains the zip and the boot.img.
2. Put the rom zip into the root of the sdcard.
3. Flash the rom using CWM. If you don't have it, please flash a custom kernel .(I recommend terrasilent)
4. When you're in CWM6, reflash the rom again.
5. After the second flash, flash the gapps zip. (if you have it)
6. Wipe your data.
7. Reboot into download mode and flash a GB kernel. (preferably the one you had before)
8. Reboot again into download mode after getting into CWM5.
9. Flash the boot.img included in the package by using heimdall at the KERNEL partition.
10. It should reboot and you will have your bit of Icy sandwich!!
NB: If you want the soft keys, (regardless of the reasons, RECOMMENDED FOR US PLAYERS, download the zip for the keys and flash it over CWM)
Here's the instructions in a more concrete way (Thanks Daniel644 for the video)
For those having problems with the encryption thing, here's the fix (Thanks Goldflame09)
For those if you who install and get the encryption error, follow these steps and it will work.
1) Hit reset tablet on the error page.
2) Go into recovery
3) Wipe data/factory reset.
4) Reboot system now.
5) As soon as the screen shuts off, go into download.
6) Flash terra silent kernel.
7) Let it boot into recovery and ignore all the errors.
8) Go to advanced and reboot download.
9) Flash the boot.img again.
10) Should be all set as long as you don't go into recovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sources
Because we need to comply with the licenses and if you want to use our sources for something else here they are:
Device tree: https://github.com/TeamSupernovaSGP/android_device_samsung_ypg1
Kernel source: https://github.com/TeamSupernovaSGP/android_kernel_samsung_ypg1
Signature banners
Here's a banner made by LuthicaBlue (Big thanks to him!! )
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Thanks
Samsung
Google
TeamHacksung
Pawitp (without him, ICS wouldn't have been what it is now big props to him!!)
Jt1134
Cyanogenmod
Supermaster34
Tdmcode
Downloads
B1
Gapps
Gapps Download
Software Key Mod
Soft Key Download (On-Screen buttons)
Screenshots
reserved, just in case .
reserved (watever that means)
but can i be a tester?
the playa! said:
reserved (watever that means)
but can i be a tester?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
reserved means that I reserved the post in case I have more to put into the thread (han made it too so idk why you put reserved too )
Also there's already the beta 1 of ICS for the 4.0 here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1712668&page=113
zaclimon said:
reserved means that I reserved the post in case I have more to put into the thread (han made it too so idk why you put reserved too )
Also there's already the beta 1 of ICS for the 4.0 here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1712668&page=113
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i didnt know that...
So, is this going to be apart of supernova, or your own separate project?
Can't wait.
iJimaniac said:
So, is this going to be apart of supernova, or your own separate project?
Can't wait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll see.
zaclimon said:
You'll see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
in how long?
the playa! said:
in how long?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No ETA's
Seriously, I think there are way to many s flying around
iJimaniac said:
No ETA's
Seriously, I think there are way to many s flying around
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, ikr?
thats sad though.. no ETA's.. watever then.
Yes, no ETA's. Me, zaclimon and Oisis are all balacing ery busy schedules to get this to you guys as fast as possible. Me and zac stay up until almost midnight many nights testing and developing, and Oisis has to be up a 2-3 in the morning JUST to be able to talk to us, not to mention having to balance a VERY busy school schedule, our individual social lives, etc.
So please stop asking us for ETA's, or if this will be fixed by X, or that by Y, because we're developing this for the benefit of the community. We're not getting paid, or gaining any tax breaks, we're just a couple of guys who have decided to unlock the complete potential of this device, and if I do say so myself, I think we're doing a pretty dang good job on it, all things considered.
My rant is done, but guys, please understand what we're going through to be able to get this to you.
hanthesolo said:
Yes, no ETA's. Me, zaclimon and Oisis are all balacing ery busy schedules to get this to you guys as fast as possible. Me and zac stay up until almost midnight many nights testing and developing, and Oisis has to be up a 2-3 in the morning JUST to be able to talk to us, not to mention having to balance a VERY busy school schedule, our individual social lives, etc.
So please stop asking us for ETA's, or if this will be fixed by X, or that by Y, because we're developing this for the benefit of the community. We're not getting paid, or gaining any tax breaks, we're just a couple of guys who have decided to unlock the complete potential of this device, and if I do say so myself, I think we're doing a pretty dang good job on it, all things considered.
My rant is done, but guys, please understand what we're going through to be able to get this to you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i understand. sorry about all my fuss that i created.
please forgive me.
the playa! said:
i understand. sorry about all my fuss that i created.
please forgive me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem, it's not directly directed at you, it's just directed at the entire community. It's an unfortunate fact that most people these days forget how much time devs spend working on this stuff for them, which is understandable, since we don't share the development process with you guys. Just keep in mind that it's normally a lot more time-consuming to accomplish a task then we let on.
hanthesolo said:
Yes, no ETA's. Me, zaclimon and Oisis are all balacing ery busy schedules to get this to you guys as fast as possible. Me and zac stay up until almost midnight many nights testing and developing, and Oisis has to be up a 2-3 in the morning JUST to be able to talk to us, not to mention having to balance a VERY busy school schedule, our individual social lives, etc.
So please stop asking us for ETA's, or if this will be fixed by X, or that by Y, because we're developing this for the benefit of the community. We're not getting paid, or gaining any tax breaks, we're just a couple of guys who have decided to unlock the complete potential of this device, and if I do say so myself, I think we're doing a pretty dang good job on it, all things considered.
My rant is done, but guys, please understand what we're going through to be able to get this to you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hanthesolo said:
No problem, it's not directly directed at you, it's just directed at the entire community. It's an unfortunate fact that most people these days forget how much time devs spend working on this stuff for them, which is understandable, since we don't share the development process with you guys. Just keep in mind that it's normally a lot more time-consuming to accomplish a task then we let on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rectum dictis! :good:
(Sounds dirty, right? It's actually Latin for, "Well said!")
Just thought I'd brighten the mood with some humor.
well this time, i think asking ETA is less reproachable. The team or zaclimon individually already posted the new thread about the coming ROM.
It's like advertising Avengers 2 is coming out but not telling people when it will be available.
it's natural for people to question when is it actually going to come out.
I think it's different from the typical ETA inquiry that i usually encounter.
stylemate said:
well this time, i think asking ETA is less reproachable. The team or zaclimon individually already posted the new thread about the coming ROM.
It's like advertising Avengers 2 is coming out but not telling people when it will be available.
it's natural for people to question when is it actually going to come out.
I think it's different from the typical ETA inquiry that i usually encounter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, sir, I do believe ANY ETA inquiry is against the forum rules.
XDA does not operate like the movie industry, nor like any commercial industry for that matter.
Outside of XDA, teasers and release announcements lead to inquiries, which may or may not be answered. Within XDA, teasers, promotions, and/or announcements are for the sole purpose of notification only. When the project is ready, it is ready. No questions asked.
Higgs_Boson said:
No, sir, I do believe ANY ETA inquiry is against the forum rules.
XDA does not operate like the movie industry, nor like any commercial industry for that matter.
Outside of XDA, teasers and release announcements lead to inquiries, which may or may not be answered. Within XDA, teasers, promotions, and/or announcements are for the sole purpose of notification only. When the project is ready, it is ready. No questions asked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I think more, I'm not sure if the question"(coming soon) in how long"? can be even considered as ETA inquiry. (connotatively)
There was no mention of WIP nor that the work is not complete yet.
In CM9's Camera's case, I'm also opposed to ETA inquiries.
People know that the work is in progress and the time required is indefinite.
But in this case, there was no hint that the work was unfinished nor about the uncertainty of completion.
zaclimon said that it's coming soon.
In Supermaster's thread about Camera WIP, none says "coming soon"
I think the term "coming soon" should be used more carefully because it means that the producer is somewhat ready and definite that the work is going to be finished and released on the specific time.
and i don't think that asking when the producer would wish to release is the "ETA inquiry" that people get attentive of.
I'm not trying to provoke any fight in this forum, I don't want to flame anyone and cause trouble.
I admire you guys' work because I'm a complete noob.
Of course i've never been developer and never felt how it would be to be asked of ETA.
But I just want people to ease up the tension in this forum.
Peace.
My apologies if my words appeared as flaming. Never were my intentions to flame you, I only wanted to point out that XDA is a not-for-profit forum/project, and all of the work that the developers do here is on a goodwill basis.
Those who ask for ETA's do not realize how much work it takes for a GOODWILL developer to manage life, work/school, and development on their own dime and time.
It's like a homeless person coming into your house, just after you've worked a full day and managed family and other obligations. You've just started cooking dinner, but you're all ready stressed and tired from a full day when the homeless person asks, "Hey, bud! When's dinner going to be ready? I'm hungry! C'mon Hurry up!"
Just sayin'.
All checks and analysis were done to fresh installs only. No additional apps were installed except for those required for the security checks. The analysis is of currently active projects ONLY.
[ROM] Stock official firmware 20140513
Security Check Results;
CVE-2013-6271
CVE-2013-7373
CVE-2014-1939
CVE-2013-7372
CVE-2014-1600
Masterkey 9950697
Masterkey 10148049
USSD
Optimizations;
CPU Governor- Stock
SDCard Cache- Stock
OOM- Stock
SYSCTL- Stock
Network- Stock
Build.prop- Stock
BT Tether (watch>phone>internet);
Not working
BT Companion;
Not working
Kernel
Whatever kernel is provided.
[ROM] monxDIFIED™ SMART ROM ? SECURE + BT TETHERING v01-04
Security Check Results;
CVE-2013-6271
CVE-2013-7373
CVE-2014-1939
CVE-2013-7372
CVE-2014-1600
Masterkey 9950697
Masterkey 10148049
USSD
Optimizations;
CPU Governor- Stock
SDCard Cache- Stock
OOM- Stock
SYSCTL- Stock
Network- Stock
Build.prop- Minimal edits (Density config, Enable USB debugging, Disable debugging notify, Disable Bytecode, Disable sending data and logging)
BT Tether (watch>phone>internet);
Not properly working. Blue icon, no connection. Browser, Play Store, Voice Search, Google Now, Maps, etc., all fail to find a connection.
BT Companion;
Not properly working
Kernel
Whatever kernel you have prior to flashing is what you get.
[ROM] 07.06 EnSec STOCK Secure
(Continuation of the, Omate officially supported and approved, EnSec Project by Adam Outler, ClearD , Dees Troy, kuronosan and others.)
Security Check Results;
CVE-2013-6271
CVE-2013-7373
CVE-2014-1939
CVE-2013-7372
Masterkey 9950697
Masterkey 10148049
USSD
Optimizations;
CPU Governor- Tuned for lower CPU clocks under load to save battery
SDCard Cache- Tuned for optimal R/W speeds
OOM- Stock
SYSCTL- Tuned
Network- Tuned
Build.prop- Multiple edits (Density config, Network, playback, etc....)
BT Tether (watch>phone>internet);
Not working
BT Companion;
Not working
Kernel
Device specific matched kernel.
[ROM] mystery companion ROM
(if you don't know, don't ask. If you do know, don't tell)
Security Check Results;
CVE-2013-6271
CVE-2013-7373
CVE-2014-1939
CVE-2013-7372
Optimizations;
CPU Governor- Tuned for lower CPU clocks under load to save battery
SDCard Cache- Tuned for optimal R/W speeds
OOM- Tuned
SYSCTL- Tuned
Network- Tuned
Build.prop- Multiple edits (Density config, Network, playback, etc....)
BT Tether (watch>phone>internet);
Not properly working
BT Companion;
Mostly functional. Working notifications, working contacts sync, working remote app management, working speaker phone. Remote camera control not working,
Kernel
Whatever kernel you have prior to flashing is what you get.
How did you perform these security checks? I would like to check my own device.
Belarc
Bluebox
Dou Security XRay
Eeye
Secunia
SRT App Integrity
(all in attached zip)
USSD can be checked by going to ESET. You can also create your own page to check USSD and have it issue more aggressive codes, that what I've done. CVE-2014-1600 has to be checked by hand.
I'm still running EnSec + Operative Casual Edition 20140318 20140120 firmware ONLY!
It suits my purposes. The watch does what it's supposed to do. Tethering would do me no good unless I could tether to Maemo 5 or Meego Harmattan, which seems singularly unlikely.
Should I be worried and reflashing to something else, or is there no real point in a change from what I'm running right now?
EnSec STOCK Secure is a continuation and is based on newer firmware. There may be some sensor fixes and a couple of other things but other than that is very close to the original EnSec. Even though neither are perfect, both are still the best choice for security at this time. I personally would suggest flashing kuronosan's EnSec simply because it is a current and active release.
I have not tested the current version of monx ROM as every dev that was here prior to monx has quit releasing on xda for this device. I have quit dev support for the device on xda as well. You can pretty much thank monx for that.
So ClearD is gone, kuronosan is only providing support, and Dees wasn't surprised at what happened. Adam Outler is off on other projects. Any other dev I've talked to also found monx's kanging, games and insults a bit offensive. Enjoy your monx flavored icing as, from what we can tell, there is almost no real ROM work and mostly themeing. But what do we know, we are nothing but wannabe devs according to monx anyway.
You guys are so pathetic, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR ISSUES
Focus on your own roms and ignore the rhetoric, because no one actually cares.
xcooling said:
You guys are so pathetic, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR ISSUES
Focus on your own roms and ignore the rhetoric, because no one actually cares.
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Click to collapse
If you want to support somebody that stole Adam Outler, Dees Troy, kuronosan, ChiefzReloaded, ClearD and my work then calls the very same people whose work he stole fakes and wannabe's go ahead. Enjoy your easily hacked, unoptimized theme being passed off as a ROM.
And it wouldn't have been a problem if he had simply done the proper thing and asked and credited and not called everybody else a fake and wannabe. Not a problem though as of 8/7/2014 I have rescinded any and all permissions for xda and it's members to use my works, reference my works and mirror my works.
awesome, what a helpful person.
Thanks for standing by the community.
xcooling said:
awesome, what a helpful person.
Thanks for standing by the community.
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Click to collapse
Adam Outler, Dees Troy, kuronosan, ChiefzReloaded, ClearD and myself all work(ed) together on the TrueSmart/x201. Almost all work released on xda and any other forums, English or otherwise, is either based on our work, or authorized mirrors of our work. Some of our work is even in official firmware as we have worked with Omate since October of last year on issues.
I maintained an updated archive of almost every firmware and ROM released for not only the TrueSmart but the entire x201 platform and did security checks on all of it as well as look for any changes that may benefit all x201 users. I was also responsible for the core ROM work as well as being part of the early TWRP development and assisting the other devs with their work. Adam Outler, Dees Troy and kuronosan have all referenced my work at one point or another for their own works. In fact my work was called "amazing" by Adam Outer and "required" buy multiple other devs.
monx STOLE the work of at least five other devs and never even so much as apologized, then have repeated called other devs wannabe's.
And as far as the security and optimizations analysis, those results are after a peer review in which all the results matched. monx has called it b$ and and yet again called multiple devs wannabes.
I have better things to do than be part of a community that allows an ass like monx to kang, distribute an admitted trojan infected ROM and call multiple devs that came before him wannabe's and be a general ass with little repercussions.
In short. This section would not even be here if it was not for myself and a couple others. Also, the vast majority of the work, support and info would not even exist. This is not the first device I've done this for either. I did my part, and more.
xcooling said:
awesome, what a helpful person.
Thanks for standing by the community.
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Click to collapse
When several MTK developers (who have coded custom ROMs, kernels, and firmwares for MTK devices) tell you that your ROM has issues and you call them wannabes or haters, you really don't deserve any sort of adulation.
Besides, I'm still here providing support. Much of what I've discovered while working with other developers has become commonplace on future firmwares. I don't appreciate being called a "wannabe" or "hater" when calling people out on stupid mistakes.
XDA is not a place for Solid Snakes. It's a place for developers to work together. Not helping others is the peak of asshole-i-tude and accepting contributions to your work while not contributing to that of others is the antithesis of XDA.
Loosers attitude: give up and run away, complain because you were not given enough credit or fame
Winners attitude: would be to make your rom better, keep helping the community as you have done.
xcooling said:
Loosers attitude: give up and run away, complain because you were not given enough credit or fame
Winners attitude: would be to make your rom better, keep helping the community as you have done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool story bro
So you support lying, theft of intellectual property and copyrights and acting like an 3 year old by calling people names? If that's the case then let me steal his work, improve it and call it my own vs trying fixing real problems like the ability to erase the IMEI with nothing more than a webpage or destroy the partition map with an email. Themes are the least of this devices problems.
Awesome. This device already had a bad rep with the devs for various reasons, then this monx guy swoops in to crush any remaining hope we had. Oh well, I'm thankful for what you guys have done, I actually enjoy my TS because of you guys, and that's all I could have asked for.
speedyink said:
Awesome. This device already had a bad rep with the devs for various reasons, then this monx guy swoops in to crush any remaining hope we had. Oh well, I'm thankful for what you guys have done, I actually enjoy my TS because of you guys, and that's all I could have asked for.
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Click to collapse
I'm still working on quite a few projects. Stay tuned. They likely won't end up here, but you never know.
Glad to hear kuronosan! I understand if you don't want to release it here, maybe you could PM me where you plan to release it or something? I've been interested in what you've been doing, and you have said some things in the past that sound promising (like news of KK and the like).
Thanks for sticking with it, and again to all the devs for all the previous work that helped us get as far as we are.
Lokifish Marz said:
Adam Outler, Dees Troy, kuronosan, ChiefzReloaded, ClearD and myself all work(ed) together on the TrueSmart/x201. Almost all work released on xda and any other forums, English or otherwise, is either based on our work, or authorized mirrors of our work. Some of our work is even in official firmware as we have worked with Omate since October of last year on issues.
I maintained an updated archive of almost every firmware and ROM released for not only the TrueSmart but the entire x201 platform and did security checks on all of it as well as look for any changes that may benefit all x201 users. I was also responsible for the core ROM work as well as being part of the early TWRP development and assisting the other devs with their work. Adam Outler, Dees Troy and kuronosan have all referenced my work at one point or another for their own works. In fact my work was called "amazing" by Adam Outer and "required" buy multiple other devs.
monx STOLE the work of at least five other devs and never even so much as apologized, then have repeated called other devs wannabe's.
And as far as the security and optimizations analysis, those results are after a peer review in which all the results matched. monx has called it b$ and and yet again called multiple devs wannabes.
I have better things to do than be part of a community that allows an ass like monx to kang, distribute an admitted trojan infected ROM and call multiple devs that came before him wannabe's and be a general ass with little repercussions.
In short. This section would not even be here if it was not for myself and a couple others. Also, the vast majority of the work, support and info would not even exist. This is not the first device I've done this for either. I did my part, and more.
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Click to collapse
Could just not ignore him,,, I only flashed the rom to see what the BT tethering was like out of curiosity (its very slow and useable)... will be ditching the ROM when I can get round to it... been annoying me all week I can't wear my watch has it just drains flat with this ROM....
speedyink said:
Glad to hear kuronosan! I understand if you don't want to release it here, maybe you could PM me where you plan to release it or something? I've been interested in what you've been doing, and you have said some things in the past that sound promising (like news of KK and the like).
Thanks for sticking with it, and again to all the devs for all the previous work that helped us get as far as we are.
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Click to collapse
I've personally approached monx about sharing work and ideas but he clearly has no intention of doing so; he has not responded but he continues to post in his topics.
That's fine. I'm only interested in continuing to better this watch and I have my own things to work on. As far as battery tweaks, I've managed to stabilize that (one of my users mentioned battery life 4-5 days with regular use) and I've managed to make quite a few gains.
Some of the things I would like to share involve making BT more stable and accessible across all ROMs, but again... he has no interest in sharing.
So while some of you hang from his beard as though Loki is the bad guy here, remember the ROM you love so much came from Loki's work and from the relationship I continue to foster with the CEO of this company.
But hey, no worries. Keep on praising a glorified themer who won't share his work with anyone else.
I'll be back here when I get my hands on the KK build.
Well, I'm gonna stick to my MotoACTV for a little longer. Planned on buying a TS secondhand, but hardware issues, software issues, and the current bout of drama, are very well keeping me from upgrading.
I understand your (TS devs) positions and motives. I know that there's a reason why you left the development on this device, and I'm glad you've simply quit development, rather than fighting and starting a riot.
However, with nearly all of the developers having abandoned the device, I don't see a good future coming from this.
I was hopeful through the kickstarter phase, and it's a pretty cool piece of tech, but, chances are, Omate will support it better than the community, until someone stands up, starts their own thing, and isn't afraid of getting their work ripped off.
Anyway, thanks for the development it did get, and all the cool things you guys do. If it weren't for you, this device would probably be dead in the water unless the OEM goes above and beyond to support it for a while.
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
WOW Man..
pitbull8265 said:
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
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Could not have said it better.... You hit the nail right on the head.. People respect those who back their work with support:good::good::good:
This DOES seem to be in SHORT reserve.. WELL STATED
Impressive
I have noticed this too.. Its like these people are too GOOD for Q&A and sometimes even respond to questions like they are PETTY and an inconvenience.. There ARE some who DO help, and those people deserve to know they are appreciated.. You in particular, have helped me a ton, so thanks.. Maybe you'll start a movement, and more people will start doing their part to help their followers...
+1
There is a SERIOUS shortage of helpers and an overage of shovelers
All these builds keep coming, and still the same problems on the one they put out before with a different NAME for the ROM.. Its like they change the name and recycled it..
I read through threads now, and if the OP doesn't hang out and help their users, I wont use their builds anymore.
Couldn't agree more!! Nicely said too
Be proud of your work.. Stick around and make sure people can..ya know, enjoy it too..
It's quality not quantity that matters. Stepping on other teams and developers to rush something out just to say "FIRST" will get you no where.. So while timely updates are important, if that's the only thing you post in your own thread.. "New build is up" when there's been 10 pages of people asking questions... I'll never support you, both publicly or financially.
I understand new enthusiast can be quite frustrating or maybe you just aren't a people type of person.. team up with someone that is... pass the q&a on to them, but do fricking something, people want support for YOUR roms and if you put out 20..that means all 20.
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Yea, I'm somewhere between this and the op. They shouldn't be 100% absent, but on the same note, some consideration for the above quote is in order too.
While were venting, its possible the devs haven't figured out how to fix some of these issues, but it doesn't do a dam bit of good for 50 people to complain about the same thing and no one is posting logcats. So don't complain about things not getting fixed, if your not attaching logs to every post about issues.
Just my 2c, add 97c more and go buy a cheeseburger.
Sent from my G3, Unlocked by Team Codefire
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
Variety is the spice of life. I'd rather have 20 that will get fixed eventually than just 1 that works perfectly. If they are all too similar for you then just move on to another one, build your own, or just wait for fully featured lollipop which will be here soon enough. If a thread is maintained or not - I'm just happy to have a thread. A couple devs have walked away already and it'd suck if more left. Just be grateful for what we've got and be patient.
Kris Nelson said:
Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
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The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
If you're a good parent, when you bring a child into this world, you raise it, and nurture it... creating it is not enough...
noun
1.
the act or process of developing; growth; progress:
iBolski said:
The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
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Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
Kris Nelson said:
Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
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I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
And since it does appear that you do not have to be a developer to post in the standard DEV forum, then that makes even more sense.
I do know that in another forum I frequented a lot, you were given developer status and only developers could create new threads in the DEV/ROM forum. That was to prevent a lot of "spam" postings of ROMs.
Makes me wonder if that's what is happening here.
iBolski said:
I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
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I wish you were correct but nope, he is the builder and maintainer. Trust me many more than 5+ when you include other carriers as well.. But not just the one, others have started as well... It's very frustrating that after 1 week, several messages of a very specific problem (not mine just someone i was helping) on different sites where they are posted.. I have to track down someone that i know can help but has NOTHING to do with any of these roms...and gets zippy cash.. Though he should..lol
Anyway, i truly value great developers and have learned who to support and who not to. I like to help people so the developers can build awesome stuff and its my way of keeping the simple crap of your plate so you can do just that..but when i can't even find the answer, the developer should be available.
Just saw your edit.. Yes i think that is happening too. I was always under the assumption that builders/maintainers did so for the actual devise and carriers they use.. I guess that's no longer the case.
Oadam11 is a builder of various roms for our G3's from source repositories available for anyone to build from, and anyone to commit to. He may or may not be doing any commits/merge requests - and even if he did those contributions might not be accepted into the various G3 forks.
In any case, he might not be in a position to contribute to feature requests or bug fixes. He might not be running his own builds of all these roms, past checking to see if they will boot and more or less work.
Say Team Vanir does a fork of their work for the G3, an official one. Ok, then you would ask for support from members of Team Vanir, sure, though you might not get much, depending on a lot of factors (including your attitude...) Then consider the possibility that someone just builds something like Commotio from publicly available sources, with just enough tweaks from somewhere to get it to compile and run, unofficially, on one or more G3 variants. I suspect that is where oadam11 is coming from. He doesn't create the roms, he builds them for G3's. He watches the repositories for each rom he has built for us, and when he sees that rom's devs have checked in and merged useful updates, then he rebuilds for us when he has time. Builds take a while. Then he makes them available for us users to download and install them, after some degree of testing.
The point is that he is in no way responsible for supporting the builds he produces of these team's work. It would be impossible for him to anyway. I am sure he gets permission and some degree of cooperation from any team project he builds from, but he is NOT a team member, or major contributor, for all of them. He is a noble builder and distributor, and you should expect nothing more from him than What he is already providing.
If you want to get a problem or new feature dealt with on any given rom, you must deal with the team's source contributers by raising issues on their gerrit or maybe working on an outstanding and team-prioritized bug as a contributor.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Thank you..you actually confirmed the point I was making. However, is the average person going to know all this? Of course not...should they do their research prior, of course but they don't... I see good teams being hurt by this as well.. Vanir just had an issue the other day.. Something is being lost in translation and by no means was i only referring to Adam.
I understand. It is interesting that in G+ just a little why ago someone asked David Kessler of Team Vanir who was their maintainer of the G3 Vanir and he replied that they don't have one.
There was also discussion about someone providing support, like answering questions. The idea of supporting a clueless user who had tried to flash TouchWiz onto a Vanir device, by beating the user over the head with an iPhone6+ was suggested. The devs have no patience with such users, generally.
That said, Holy Angel seems exceptional.
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The problem I have, is that when a person POSTS a Rom, and are the OP, they need to support what they post, and help the people posting questions in the thread, or BOW OUT!!! There are people posting and dumping... DONT Post a ROM if you're not willing or able to help the team you are Posting links to... Dont post it and then say "Any problems, contact THEM"
THAT PERSON mentioned, has a lot of them, all as OP, none supported other than.."New build up"
Raising the age limit for COPPA
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to your liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
DeanGibson said:
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to his/her liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because you want a feature, doesn't mean it's a good feature to add. If you did that, you would end up with something that could eventually become impossible to maintain.
There are SO many bugs right now in the AOSP code that these devs are trying to fix to make it work on this phone. I would rather those get fixed first.
And, do you think you are the only one to ask for features?
I'm a developer, not for android, but I write code for a living. And what you are asking for is what we call "scope creep". We have to weed out the "must haves" with the "wants". Must haves are the things that they user must have in order to perform their job. This is usually adding functionality that isn't there currently that is needed to complete their job. The "wants" are "I would like to have the ability to clear out all background apps with a single button or swipe". That is NOT needed on this phone, but it's a nice "to have" option, but it doesn't affect the overall performance of the OS itself. Yes, you might say it does because you can clear out the background apps, but in reality, those apps are NOT running. I don't want to get into the specifics of android app management, but those apps you see in the "recent apps" history are NOT running. They are suspended and not taking up ANY CPU cycles, what-so-ever. If they happen to be, then it's a poorly written app, and it means the dev knowingly circumvented the Android OS app management process which is a big no-no. In that case, you should go back to the dev of the app and demand they fix that.
But, you are free not to install the ROM. That's fine and that's your choice, but it just irks me when I see people make complaints like this who probably have no idea what the software development life cycle is all about. To me, fixing bugs right now is the main issue, not adding pretty enhancements to the OS.
And who's to say they aren't working on what you ask, especially if you ask for fixes to major issues (such as battery life, radio, etc)?
Remember, these are UNOFFICIAL releases. They are based off of AOSP source which is pretty much device-agnostic except when it comes to Nexus devices since those are Google devices and therefore, the AOSP source is built for those type of devices.
Android is completely different from iOS. iOS is built for a set of hardware that doesn't have much variance like Android does. Hence, that is why Apple controls both the software AND the hardware of iPhones. It means less fragmentation across devices, but it also means, they decide what is best and you have no way of getting the source.
Google releases the source for Android so you CAN have these custom ROMs built. But, because one Android device has a different hardware configuration from another (CPU and GPU's being the biggest ones), then anything that can take advantage of the hardware architecture for a particular phone means having to change the AOSP source to use any of those "advantages" from that hardware. Which then means, that source no longer works on other phones, only for the phone they modified it for.
So, give the devs some slack, please. They are working hard on it and it's not one dev. If it were, then give the guy even MORE slack. The source for Android is over 12gb along. That is where it's not even compiled. And, compiling the android source generally takes about 90 minutes. So, each "fix" they do requires recompiling (90 minutes) and then testing.
Then, more than likely, the "fix" either didn't work or it possibly broke something else. That means, going back, determining the issue, fixing it, recompiling (wait another 90 minutes) and test again.
That all takes time, people. We developers are NOT magicians, even though it might seem like it.
So, try to imagine trying to fix all the big bugs that you know about, then have to come here, read through ALL the posts and then log those requests down, prioritize them based on all the other work you have, make those changes, recompile, test, etc. It's not a easy and it gets frustrating. But believe me, when we do fix an issue or are able to give the users what they want, we get an extreme amount of satisfaction knowing that we were able to satisfy the "customer".
So please, be careful what you state about devs. Those that do read here usually have thick skins, but complain enough, and they might just quit and then you have nothing.
I understand where people are coming from, but you've been blaming the devs when it's not their fault. Again, the android source is huge and it takes more than one person to work on it. Especially if they are responsible for more than one device. Some devs are working on source for more than just this phone. So, add that to what I already stated and hopefully, you can begin to understand what the devs are going through.
Hi,
I'd like to get some very important info from Remix OS dev team.
Users unrelated to the dev team or with no android-x86 OS dev experience, please DO NOT attempt to answer these questions.
Could you please make a thorough guide on how to report bugs, suggestions, feature requests and hardware incompatibilites?
Which tools should we use to report bugs or hardware problems - be precise please. Current feedback form seems very modest and inefficient.
Except for bug description and device info should we provide a full logcat, dmesg, per-app logcat - please point out the most effective way to report this stuff.
Where should we post feature requests or suggestions?
I personally think, that e-mails or forum threads are really inefficient for this. I'd recommend using Uservoice service (https://uservoice.com) or something familiar . Example of uservoice usage in practice: https://touchpal.uservoice.com/ There are plenty of web services like these and they are very powerful and efficient.
Perhaps there is a web service that would help making an official list of supported hardware?
Remix OS, Android-x86 and Phoenix OS all base pretty much on the same ground here, so they could share same list, but none of these actually has a nice, neat tool to report supported hardware. Except for a list of officially supported devices, it's a total mess.
I know that ChromeOS with android apps support and upcoming Android releases may be groundbreaking for whole Android-x86 related projects, but if we mobilize ourselfs and use all resources efficiently, I'm pretty sure Remix OS can become very popular and liked. Devs - help us, users, help you achieve that.
Right now it seems like you don't really care about other devices compatibility or about what people may report. If you did, you would provide better tools for that in order to do your work more efficiently. Don't take it as offense, it's just cirtical point of view.
Please optimize that - this will help speed up the development process and community contact a ton.
Please reply Remix OS, Jide, @RemixOS_Cameron , @RemixOS_Guannan , @RemixOS_Jason , @RemixOS_Josh , @RemixOS_Joshua , @RemixOS_Valentina , @AmoraRei
Hey Ventricle,
Thanks for the message and the suggestions!
Currently:
We have the help center setup for general inquires as well as leaving technical feedback here: http://support.jide.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
We also have a google form specifically set up for Remix OS for PC users: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WMRbcwDqcoZ1vyUq68AJKCYvXBGvUIEvbgHhuySrUUc/viewform
On products like Remix Mini, clicking on the power options will allow you to "Report a problem" and then "Submit feedback". This will also send a user log along with the report.
We also actually read through almost every one of these threads for bug reports and feature requests. As for hardware incompatibilities, we accumulate a list based on the comments here as well as in our google group (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/remix-os-for-pc). However, these incompatibilities are much trickier to tackle as the hardware configurations are so varied and diverse.
However, I will admit that the user feedback process can be better. We'll work on a more streamlined process, write up an easy to follow guide and then we'll post it here in XDA as well as other channels.
Thanks again for your comments. We clearly need the support of our user community as we grow. Sometimes, in the process of growing as a young company, processes need to keep getting better or else we fall behind. Appreciate the reminder and I'll drop you a note after we've created the guide.
Best,
Jason
@RemixOS_Jason that's great, thanks. I'm looking forward to your actions.
A little overhaul in this part of Remix development can have a powerful impact and spare so much time both for the devs and the users.
Wysłane z mojego Nexus 4 przy użyciu Tapatalka
@RemixOS_Jason I've just checked how feedback for Phoenix OS looks like and they're ahead of you! Anyway, this is what I think is better than just e-mails, forms and forums - http://www.phoenixos.com/feedback/page/1
Unfortunetly they don't have everything translated to English yet, but I hope this will change.
Just a suggestion from my side.
UPDATE:
Phoenix is definitely not ahead, so I take my words back. The feedback page is still a mess and all bushy (Chinese).
Ventricle said:
@RemixOS_Jason I've just checked how feedback for Phoenix OS looks like and they're ahead of you! Anyway, this is what I think is far better than just e-mails and forums - http://www.phoenixos.com/feedback/page/1
Unfortunetly they don't have everything translated to English yet, but I hope this will change.
Just a suggestion from my side.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I fail to see how that is any better that Jide's feedback forms form1/form2 or the submit a request
That page from PhoenixOS looks just like a nonsensical mess that there team would need a crystal ball to decipher what the posters 'issues' are.
HypoTurtle said:
I fail to see how that is any better that Jide's feedback forms form1/form2 or the submit a request
That page from PhoenixOS looks just like a nonsensical mess that there team would need a crystal ball to decipher what the posters 'issues' are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's true that the page looks a bit chaotic and as if people don't suggest anything useful (technical) to devs - but THATS BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GUIDELINES. And of course it looks like alpha state feedback page which isn't even translated to English yet. The description text area in Remix feedback form is like those suggestions on Phoenix feedback page - it's simply bad, because it doesn't hint people how they should describe things and what should be mentioned.
I didn't say Phoenix feedback is perfect, I'm only suggesting what direction is good in my opinion. TouchPal uservoice page looks awesome and you can see that devs read these reports and they let you know wheter they will add something or fix it. Also it lets community decide which things should be dealth with first - by upvoting them.
The forms you mentioned seem quite inefficient to me (except the booting problems one - it's great) - you can only describe a bug or a problem, you can't attach any error files and the forms don't ask what camera, audio, bluetooth devices you have. What's important - after you send it, you will never get a notification about anything coming to life - you can only hope that the next OS release will include fixes you need.
I've spoken to few devs and they usually need logcats dmesg files and as much HW info as possible. This form is just too poor to provide nice information and a gazzilion of people can report the same thing.
Instead, I'd rather visit f.e remixos.uservoice.com search if someone has the same problem as me and then if I find it, I'd upvote it and maybe add a comment. In other case, I'd post a new "ticket" following specially written guidelines on how to report/suggest stuff.
To sum up, feedback needs:
1. Guidelines on how to report (error files, which apps to reproduce etc.)
2. Anti-redundancy filter - upvoting existing feedback reports
3. More direct contact with devs - by them replying to feedback when it's a major or very popular issue (then it's not a waste of dev team's time, because it's like replying to hundreds or thousands of people) and ITS PUBLIC.
4. After a new version of system is released, the devs should also point volunteer testers to what they should focus on in testing.
Trust me, this may seem like devs will have to focus on community instead of real work, but actually if this is better designed and more efficient, they will eventually spend way less time on it then they might now.
Also using Google Groups to get to the community is a mediocre measure in my opinion. I get that it's free, has google class stability and requires almost no time to maintain or set up, but it's hugely inefficient, chaotic and inconvenient.
Remember, I only want to help improve Remix, so I suggest what may be better. I'm on Jide's side, specially now when they have Android-x86 founder working with them.
Ventricle said:
Hi,
I'd like to get some very important info from Remix OS dev team.
Users unrelated to the dev team or with no android-x86 OS dev experience, please DO NOT attempt to answer these questions.
Could you please make a thorough guide on how to report bugs, suggestions, feature requests and hardware incompatibilites?
Which tools should we use to report bugs or hardware problems - be precise please. Current feedback form seems very modest and inefficient.
Except for bug description and device info should we provide a full logcat, dmesg, per-app logcat - please point out the most effective way to report this stuff.
Where should we post feature requests or suggestions?
I personally think, that e-mails or forum threads are really inefficient for this. I'd recommend using Uservoice service (https://uservoice.com) or something familiar . Example of uservoice usage in practice: https://touchpal.uservoice.com/ There are plenty of web services like these and they are very powerful and efficient.
Perhaps there is a web service that would help making an official list of supported hardware?
Remix OS, Android-x86 and Phoenix OS all base pretty much on the same ground here, so they could share same list, but none of these actually has a nice, neat tool to report supported hardware. Except for a list of officially supported devices, it's a total mess.
I know that ChromeOS with android apps support and upcoming Android releases may be groundbreaking for whole Android-x86 related projects, but if we mobilize ourselfs and use all resources efficiently, I'm pretty sure Remix OS can become very popular and liked. Devs - help us, users, help you achieve that.
Right now it seems like you don't really care about other devices compatibility or about what people may report. If you did, you would provide better tools for that in order to do your work more efficiently. Don't take it as offense, it's just cirtical point of view.
Please optimize that - this will help speed up the development process and community contact a ton.
Please reply Remix OS, Jide, @RemixOS_Cameron , @RemixOS_Guannan , @RemixOS_Jason , @RemixOS_Josh , @RemixOS_Joshua , @RemixOS_Valentina , @AmoraRei
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey Ventricle,
Again, thanks for your comments on our communication channels. I've consolidated our feedback channels into their core functions and how one can access them. In short, we're constantly trying to improve so we'll take a step back and evaluate how this can be done better. As of now, here is the short guide on how to communicate with us most effectively:
Feedback/bugs channels
Remix OS for PC: Google form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeqaTBTPzHgjwUKtn08zUDusKTYXQtG8mLczmo7D6bDgd_17A/viewform
Remix Mini: Go to power options, select â??Report a problemâ?
Remix Ultratablet: Go to power options, select â??Report a problemâ?
Feature requests/suggestions
Help Center: http://support.jide.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Official list of supported hardware
Remix OS for PC
Google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/remix-os-for-pc
Thanks and I hope this helps,
Jason
Could we have a development road map somewhere please? I would like to know what the devs are working on and where we are heading. I would like to know what to expect in a future release. At least what's the plan in general terms. I feel it's a bit too quiet when we talk about future releases/versions/patches.
Still no improvement?
@RemixOS_Cameron , @RemixOS_Guannan , @RemixOS_Jason , @RemixOS_Josh , @RemixOS_Joshua , @RemixOS_Valentina , @AmoraRei
Still no improvement in how you gather feedback and still no guidelines for reporting issues and giving the feedback. Why is that? This is as important as education is for a country - no education means slow or no development.
If you invest just a little more effort and time into what I suggest, I guarantee you huge improvement in feedback value and that will result in faster development. Also this will truly involve users in the development and make them want to support the idea even more.
If you don't like the Uservoice methods then I suggest you making a seprate repository on GitHub called f.e Remix OS feature requests, Remix OS problem reports, Remix OS hardware incompatibilities etc.
In these repositories, people could make Issues that your actual devs could assign to future builds or at least they would acknowledge them - people would actually feel like devs really read their feedback!
This way, people would also be able to sign under existing issues instead of duplicating them. Just like here:
https://github.com/FortAwesome/Font-Awesome/issues/878
Look just how awesome this can be:
https://github.com/FortAwesome/Font-Awesome/issues
I honestly can't understand why you neglect this part of Remix OS.
It's beyond my imagination how a company like this uses such inefficient feedback tools.
I know you use Zendesk for feature requests, but doesn't it have an option to make requests public? It'd avoid duplication of requests. Maybe it's possible to view all reports; both feature requests and problem reports? But users just don't know about it?
It could be so much better with the tools I mentioned. Come on... use them!
Please reply and let me know what you think of my suggestions.
dag u done tagged everybody ?. I see u and I forward ur message.
Ventricle said:
@RemixOS_Cameron , @RemixOS_Guannan , @RemixOS_Jason , @RemixOS_Josh , @RemixOS_Joshua , @RemixOS_Valentina , @AmoraRei
Still no improvement in how you gather feedback and still no guidelines for reporting issues and giving the feedback. Why is that? This is as important as education is for a country - no education means slow or no development.
If you invest just a little more effort and time into what I suggest, I guarantee you huge improvement in feedback value and that will result in faster development. Also this will truly involve users in the development and make them want to support the idea even more.
If you don't like the Uservoice methods then I suggest you making a seprate repository on GitHub called f.e Remix OS feature requests, Remix OS problem reports, Remix OS hardware incompatibilities etc.
In these repositories, people could make Issues that your actual devs could assign to future builds or at least they would acknowledge them - people would actually feel like devs really read their feedback!
This way, people would also be able to sign under existing issues instead of duplicating them. Just like here:
https://github.com/FortAwesome/Font-Awesome/issues/878
Look just how awesome this can be:
https://github.com/FortAwesome/Font-Awesome/issues
I honestly can't understand why you neglect this part of Remix OS.
It's beyond my imagination how a company like this uses such inefficient feedback tools.
I know you use Zendesk for feature requests, but doesn't it have an option to make requests public? It'd avoid duplication of requests. Maybe it's possible to view all reports; both feature requests and problem reports? But users just don't know about it?
It could be so much better with the tools I mentioned. Come on... use them!
Please reply and let me know what you think of my suggestions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@Ventricle - After receiving your message, I shared your suggestions with our PMs, engineering team and customer support. Long story short is, they are trying to work out the feasibility, the timing and the execution of your suggestions. Although I cannot confirm at this time if and when these changes will be made, I can tell you that it's not something they haven't thought of. It does come down to the internal planning, human resource allocation and execution. Thus, please give me a few days to reply to you about your suggestions. Thanks again for pushing us to improve!
Jason
Sure thing @RemixOS_Jason ,I understand it completely. Just you saying that gives the community the sense that improvements are coming.
I'm looking forward to your follow up on this issue.
Some high hopes there!
Cheers,
Karol
UPDATE:
Got a very informative and valuable quote from @RemixOS_Jason here:
RemixOS_Jason said:
@alz_uk - Wow! It's pretty clear you have it in your mind that we are quite an evil, greedy company! Not sure if I can make a dent in your opinion, but I thought it prudent to give you a transparent answer:
As @Vioner and other users have pointed out to us, they'd like to see a different user feedback system. However, we designed it because we in the International (meaning outside of China) PR, marketing and customer support team is two full time staff and 2 part time interns. This means that our resources are limited.
Thus, the way the system is currently designed is for us to:
1) gather feedback - this is what this form is for: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cZNesOmnmO2esilFpvMzFZ874rvwsiKgWIX2fo9QsDk/viewform
2) organize the feedback regularly - once a week, my colleague organizes all the feedback into topics and sections and prioritizes them based on volume of reported bugs, issues, and compatibility with specific devices. This includes issues like the audio over HDMI, black screen, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, gaming, app specific, etc. Device specific is numerous, but consider this: currently we support roughly 65% of the PCs out in the wild. This means that there will be 35% of the PCs that just don't work for one reason or another yet. That also means that for every person with a PC that doesn't work, there are around 2 people whose PC does work. With a small dedicated engineering staff as well, we try to tackle these issues from a platform point of view. Thus, you've seen in some updates the fact that we worked on GPUs that were vendor or brand specific, rather than only tackle one specific set of hardware components in a reported device. This is where the feedback form helps us to gather data so that we focus on fixing the issues that affect the widest range of users first.
3) send the feedback to the engineers - when it reaches the devs, they tweak our prioritization order based on what's feasible and what's not in the short and long term. Thus, you can be certain that we know about outstanding audio issues (we all dogfood our prodcuts and so, there are colleagues who's Remix OS for PC machines also don't have audio coming out). However, if we haven't update with this fix, you can be certain that whatever we've tried haven't passed testing, or is in the process of testing. Thus, there are two layers of what we do with feedback: count them, and then see which ones we can actually fix.
4) The fixes we do come up with must pass internal and external testing.
5) If they do pass, they are put into updates.
The installer issue was pretty simple. Most 3rd party installer do work, but as we gathered feedback from back in Remix OS for PC based Lollipop, our product manager noticed a trend where some of the OTA issues were due to 3rd Party installers. Thus, we put out the message that we couldn't promise that 3rd party installers would work 100% to support future OTAs.
Releasing fixes take time because they need to be tested. If a fix worked for some, but might cause issues for others, we don't release that fix for a stable release. Let's take the black screen issue during installation as a case example. We gathered around 65 users' emails who had this issue during installation. When we had a fix, we sent out emails and a testing ROM just for these folks with the potential fix. After around a week, most reported that their issue was fixed and that they didn't experience any other significant issues after being able to boot Remix OS (outside of some minor app compatibility issues). Thus, after a few more days of testing internally in parallel with this tester group, we rolled into that update. If you didn't see the fix applied in an update yet, it's probably because it didn't pass testing internally, or with their related testers, meaning though some folks' issues got fixed, many did not, or it caused other significant issues.
With limited resources, we do tackle issues from a platform (CPU, GPU, broadcom wireless chip, etc.) and not focus on your device, or his device or her device specific. We also work with the patches that are given out by the Android-x86 team (of which their founder, Chih-Wei Huang actually is our tech lead on Remix OS for PC) as can be evident by the update that integrated their latest release (rc2). In fact, we are small enough as a startup that we welcome our user developers assistance. So much so that I'm trying to work on making GitHub a place where interested developers can work on projects with us (where applicable since most of Remix OS is closed source). This is how much we actually need your development help!
In the end, I beg you to consider that people in general post 4-7 times more likely if they have outstanding issues, and not because we fixed any of their issues. Thus (and I know this all too well as the manager of our forums here) it can seem like everything is terrible, that Remix OS for PC just doesn't work for anyone and that no improvement has ever been made, ever. However, I just need to remember that for every 1 person with an issue that we're still trying to resolve, there are many more where the fixes we've implemented have made a difference.
As a startup, having the amount of users we have is a blessing. As a startup, having the amount of users we have with the limited resources, I mean engineers and folks like myself who communicate with the community, has been challenging. But, I ask that instead of giving up on us or spiting us for being a "mind game" playing, evil, greedy company, that you work with us to make a difference.
It wasn't that long ago that we had users who called us out on forums and tell we needed to improve our feedback system, and they're right. I'm working on improving it to offer more transparency into the process without increasing our workload to the point where it's not sustainable. Those same users who called us out are now working with us to improve through our Ambassador program. So, the challenge is, can you help us rather than just spite us? Running a startup in the industry we're in isn't easy, but it's something we're passionate about. Clearly we can still get better. Please help us.
Thanks,
Jason Zheng
Head of International PR, and Community Management at Jide Technology
I'm also frequently on our Facebook page and Twitter page
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Click to collapse