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After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
I'm going to leave this open for the time being with the understanding that the thread may be closed by the designated Moderator for this forum the moment the thread goes off-topic.
I'm about as "true developer" as you can get. I've written software in machine language and entered it in hex with a 16-key pad. I've written embedded systems. I've written software that was good enough that MS bought the company. I've written drivers. I've run dev shops with 400 employees. I have systems in production that process more than $150 billion worth of annual global transactions. There isn't a lot in the software world that I haven't tried my hand at.
And *I* don't have the time to screw around with building something like Nero v3. But I flashed it the other day and it rocked the tits off my previously-stock-Eclair phone, and I was pretty satisfied with the whole thing, and it never once occurred to me to wonder whether the TW guys were "real" developers or not.
In short: who cares? I willing to bet I can lay claim to the title "developer" on par with the hardest of the hardcore coders here, and I'm here to tell you if it bothers you that they're calling themselves developers because you suspect they may not size up to your standards, you should probably just move along -- or keep it to yourself.
Maybe a swift kick in the balls would've been kinder.....a little over the line I think. I really don't care who it is, but anyone who takes the time to change framwork or "reskin" a ROM has done more than my fat little fingers can do. They may not all be as great as Team Whiskey or Eugene, but they still develop something, so in short, sure they are all developers. As long as someone gives credit where due, and asked permission where necessary, then the laws of the universe are still being followed......
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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I think it is a fair enough question to post... but I ask you, what is it that you hope to answer or establish? Guidelines to correct nomenclature? E-peen? I just don't quite get the nature of your interrogatory...
hilaireg said:
I'm going to leave this open for the time being with the understanding that the thread may be closed by the designated Moderator for this forum the moment the thread goes off-topic.
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Kudos to you... that is exactly why a functioning MOD committee is a great thing for XDA. I applaud your commitment to open discourse.
MV10 said:
I'm about as "true developer" as you can get. I've written software in machine language and entered it in hex with a 16-key pad. I've written embedded systems. I've written software that was good enough that MS bought the company. I've written drivers. I've run dev shops with 400 employees. I have systems in production that process more than $150 billion worth of annual global transactions. There isn't a lot in the software world that I haven't tried my hand at.
And *I* don't have the time to screw around with building something like Nero v3. But I flashed it the other day and it rocked the tits off my previously-stock-Eclair phone, and I was pretty satisfied with the whole thing, and it never once occurred to me to wonder whether the TW guys were "real" developers or not.
In short: who cares? I willing to bet I can lay claim to the title "developer" on par with the hardest of the hardcore coders here, and I'm here to tell you if it bothers you that they're calling themselves developers because you suspect they may not size up to your standards, you should probably just move along -- or keep it to yourself.
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Listing your credentials may (and I stress may) have been a bit over the top... but point well taken nonetheless.
gtiryan said:
Maybe a swift kick in the balls would've been kinder.....a little over the line I think. I really don't care who it is, but anyone who takes the time to change framwork or "reskin" a ROM has done more than my fat little fingers can do. They may not all be as great as Team Whiskey or Eugene, but they still develop something, so in short, sure they are all developers. As long as someone gives credit where due, and asked permission where necessary, then the laws of the universe are still being followed......
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Also very fair point...
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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Soo, you call two set of dev teams just skinners.. and one team coders, yet expect not to start a flame war?
I also don't know how you get "many of master's axura roms" there is only ONE axura rom.. And if you look at features, you could tell that it is not just a "Skin" you could also tell that in the change-logs if you looked past "Just framework mods" framework mods aren't just images btw.
If you honestly don't want to start a flame war, it is best not to post these types of threads.
I've considered this question myself and the answer I've come up with is, I don't care.
Whether they're truly writing new code or just reskinning or theming it's still more than I can do. They do it in their spare time and offer their work to us for free. So I guess my question to you is, what difference does it make?
Poser said:
Listing your credentials may (and I stress may) have been a bit over the top... but point well taken nonetheless.
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I have a pretty strong suspicion that the OP is a developer and is trying to pull the "harder-core than thou" card, so it seemed appropriate at the time.
There is ALWAYS somebody better than you. If you're smart, you'll call those people "employees."
I agree with that I don't really care, as long as who ever it may be, don't start releasing garbage that bricks my phone, I'm content.
I don't run an empire of $888.000.656.99...gabillion dollars with 2 interlaced brains that can code the matrix's live wallpaper, but in my little, I'm able to flash a ROM or 2.
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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When you write something remotely as good as Axura or V3 then you can make these statements.
Until then you're just being an ignorant troll.
The op is a flame in itself, why is it still up?
willsnews said:
The op is a flame in itself, why is it still up?
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^^Have to agree personally.
Anyway, anyone who develops something is a developer (dur). This means themes, mods, guides, roms, etc.
As for the ignorant comment the OP made about changelogs, most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
Yes some roms available on any phone's forum are more build around aesthetic changes, while others are geared towards efficiency, while others for raw power. That doesn't make one superior to another, but rather simply built for a different consumer.
MWBehr said:
^^Have to agree personally.
Anyway, anyone who develops something is a developer (dur). This means themes, mods, guides, roms, etc.
As for the ignorant comment the OP made about changelogs, most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
Yes some roms available on any phone's forum are more build around aesthetic changes, while others are geared towards efficiency, while others for raw power. That doesn't make one superior to another, but rather simply built for a different consumer.
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i just made a do-do in the toilet, am i a developer?
jk lol
MWBehr said:
most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
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I have to agree with this. I remember on Obsidian V5 Sombionix listed in the change log in great detail what he changed including userscripts and kernel tweaks only to be bombarded with questions about what they meant/do. A lot of the users don't understand the technical aspects and just want something "cool." Devs already get blasted with a barrage of questions and really don't need to add more fuel to the fire so to speak. It seems the OP more or less called TW and Master "skinners." The above says otherwise regarding TW and as for Master just look at the layout of his latest "beast" not to mention the Sense port he got booting on our phones. I would definitely call this development, wouldn't you agree?
xriderx66 said:
i just made a do-do in the toilet, am i a developer?
jk lol
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I know you were only making a joke, but basically (using it as an anology of course) yes. Is a kid that picks up an instrument for the first time a musician? Yes. Is he good or does anyone care that he's a musician? Probably not (other than his parents). Should he share his work with the world? Again, only his parents should hear it.
The point isn't "are you or aren't you a developer" it's simply a mater of what we percieve as different levels in skill. This doesn't even mean that our perception is accurate, but we're entitled to our opinions. And if you think a developer should have kept his work to himself or herself, then don't download it, and all is right in the world.
So yes, if you develop crap, you're still a developer, just maybe shouldn't share your product with the world
Zip Developer, Cyanogen and his Merry men or somebody dropping pure source I can careless. They contribute more than half the downloaders and requesters wanting more.
I say let them do their Jobs and be greatful they are here. Use somebody elses work and give them credit as long as its an option. I like options
DISCLAIMER:
This is totally academic, and I only pose the question as that of mere curiosity.
In no way do I mean to accuse any developer here or elsewhere of intentionally or otherwise installing malicious software in our ROMs. Not trying to start a flame war or anything.
What is the possibility that a rogue ROM creator would or could install malicious content on one of our devices? What kind of things would we look for to indicate that our device may be compromised? Perhaps packet sniffing for the extra paranoid.
I am the type that, when I see something that doesn't look normal, I question it. That said, I am a very experience Linux, *BSD, and Solaris administrator; but my experience with Android is just blooming. So I might not know where to look in the Android filesystem, or know which processes may be irregular.
I did some Googling but haven't found anything to indicate this has happened before (thank God). Are there self-checks in Android to prevent this from happening? Call me paranoid, but I just like to know what's going on.
Do the "anti-virus" softwares in the App market actually help with this?
Again just curious. I heard about some apps on the Market that Google had to remotely erase. And I believe I am correct in understanding that Google isn't as restrictive with its applications as Apple.
Any takes on this?
Antivirus and Task killers all that are garbage and slow your phone down. You won't have to worry about that happening on this site.
It depends if he/she is an asshole...
The first "viruses" for android were because people were downloading paid apps on the internet, from some site in china, that had viri put into those apps that people were downloading.
Just dont get on the bad side of a dev.
adrynalyne said:
Just dont get on the bad side of a dev.
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LOL! I'll make sure not to do that!
I know that task-killers are BS. I figured the anti-virus was a gimmick, too. As far as for self-replicating viruses on the phones I doubt that will occur.
I'm more worried about malware in the form of a sleeper-trojan that calls home with my personal phone information, or gets added to some jack-asses botnet for DDoSing.
That was a worry of mine when I first came to this site, but the dev's I download from I find quit professional. I have since just started to dig into roms trying to port them to the tb, and compare the contents and begin to see what is normally packed in the zip. I have never found a dev on this site attempt to introduce malware. I have seen some intro warz but the site immediately banned them. The site has banned devs for not giving credit were credit is due, and opening multiple accounts in a way to circumvent the system.
This site is great for all, and they do their best to keep everyone honest.
I've been here and ppcgeeks for nearly 3 and 1/2 years, both with winmo and android, and I have never had an issue. It seems that these sites really do the best they can to catch things before they happen. Personally, I can't say enough about our devs. They're great, and they do a good bit of work for people who are honestly not thankful enough to them. I personally don't think you will ever have an issue, as I haven't. And I download tons of stuff from here and other places.
I think everyone is missing the OP's point. OP isn't asking if it's happning now or whether it's happening here.
Instead, the question concerns whether or not it's physicsally possible for malicious code to get executed after installing a custom ROM and/or kernel, assuming the developer of that ROM or Kernel was inclined to put some in there. Assuming it *is* possible, which I certainly believe it is, what if anything can be done by an experienced *NIX adminsitrator to be aware of it?
Is your only option to 'trust' the developer of the ROM or Kernel, or are there things we can do with a runnning android system to know how well the live code is behaving?
I've always been curious of this myself. I am no advanced Linux administrator (yet), just an aspiring IT student. I would think the best people to ask would be the developers themselves, though.
funkybside said:
I think everyone is missing the OP's point. OP isn't asking if it's happning now or whether it's happening here.
Instead, the question concerns whether or not it's physicsally possible for malicious code to get executed after installing a custom ROM and/or kernel, assuming the developer of that ROM or Kernel was inclined to put some in there. Assuming it *is* possible, which I certainly believe it is, what if anything can be done by an experienced *NIX adminsitrator to be aware of it?
Is your only option to 'trust' the developer of the ROM or Kernel, or are there things we can do with a runnning android system to know how well the live code is behaving?
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No one is missing the point, the op asked if it can happen in roms/kernels/etc. Roms/kernels/etc for the phone are distributed here, therefore he is asking if it can happen here or anywhere that devs create these things for our phones.
BTW an experienced Linux admin should already know how to check for these things
Actually I believe it has happened at least twice. Once by accident, and once there may have been malicious code put into a rom that was set as bate for code thieves.
The first one was stupid, an update agent was left in the rom, and an update got pushed that loaded the phone browser to a certain site (it was not a bad site either). This effected a VERY minor few, as you had to have a certain version of a rom, and have rebooted over a very specific point in time.
The latter I will not go into as I do not know the specifics, or the validity of any of what happened.
g00s3y said:
No one is missing the point, the op asked if it can happen in roms/kernels/etc. Roms/kernels/etc for the phone are distributed here, therefore he is asking if it can happen here or anywhere that devs create these things for our phones.
BTW an experienced Linux admin should already know how to check for these things
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Sorry if my post offended you and no disrespect intended, but I think you are mistaken. The question of whether or not something "can happen" is fundamentally different from the question of whether or not anyone is actually doing it. Also, saying that any "experienced Linux admin should already know how to check for these things" is in poor taste; it's a personal attack that adds no value to the discussion. The idea here is to address the OPs question as a purely acedemic thought experiment; there is no implict reference to the morality of the developers here...
Perhaps we should ask the same question in a differnet way:
If net-sec researcher working at SANS wanted to test expolitation vectors against their own personal HTC Thunderbolt. Is it physically possible for them to build a custom ROM and/or Kernel such that this custom module includes malicious code that executes automatically after installed on the device?
I'd be highly surprised if anyone claims the answer is no. If the kernel itself is custom, anything the hardware can do is fair game...
Concerning the question of how to know if anything is happening, since we're talking about the firmware itself, it would be difficult to do anything in userspace with confidence. To be really sure, you'd likely need to sniff traffic (both mobile and wifi) as well as physically monitor the hardware's debug output (and perhaps even the circuit traces themselves). With a comprimized kernel, you can't trust anything running throuh the operating system's APIs.
It's very doubtful that any reputable developer on XDA would do this. Impossible? No. But XDA is the kind of place where something like this would be discovered very quickly and spread like wildfire.
Now, some unknown developer, on a random website? While I havent come across this yet, I'd say: More likely.
The question isn't concerning the likelihood of it occuring on XDA or elsewhere, it's specifcally about whether or not it is technically possible to do it.
I think we can infrer from everyone who is answering the unrelated question, i.e. Is it happening on XDA or anywhere else?, that yes, it is possible to insert malicious code into a ROM or kernel.
funkybside said:
The question isn't concerning the likelihood of it occuring on XDA or elsewhere, it's specifcally about whether or not it is technically possible to do it.
I think we can infrer from everyone who is answering the unrelated question, i.e. Is it happening on XDA or anywhere else?, that yes, it is possible to insert malicious code into a ROM or kernel.
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I think you are right. As long as there is superuser access, then basically anyone with su can pretty much to anything to your phone.
At least that's my take on it.
I'm new to android in general and XDA in particular, so please forgive my ignroance (and yes I will try searching), but this makes me wonder: Do the established developers of custom ROMs and Kernels release their source code? I'd imagine the same terms of the GPL that require HTC to release their source would also require anyone building custom Kernels to do the same. Is this also true for ROMs?
I am an experienced *NIX administrator, and that's what makes me so paranoid. This kernel source isn't coming from a CVS tree that is being scrutinized by hundreds of developers, at least not to my knowledge.
I know how code can be injected into a kernel, into a module, pretty much anywhere. Should I run a diff on the kernel source tree to see what was changed? Could do that, but that may be time consuming. I've seen innocuous kernel modules altered to allow a gateway for elevating to UID 0 (and in fact, more often in Linux than in others.)
I'm pretty confident that the folks here on XDA aren't doing anything malicious: the following of these ROMs are too popular and very fluid, and I would expect something malicious to be found quickly.
Again this is just purely academic.
nerozehl said:
I am an experienced *NIX administrator, and that's what makes me so paranoid. This kernel source isn't coming from a CVS tree that is being scrutinized by hundreds of developers, at least not to my knowledge.
I know how code can be injected into a kernel, into a module, pretty much anywhere. Should I run a diff on the kernel source tree to see what was changed? Could do that, but that may be time consuming. I've seen innocuous kernel modules altered to allow a gateway for elevating to UID 0 (and in fact, more often in Linux than in others.)
I'm pretty confident that the folks here on XDA aren't doing anything malicious: the following of these ROMs are too popular and very fluid, and I would expect something malicious to be found quickly.
Again this is just purely academic.
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Agreed that the liklihood of stuff here being questionable is low, but the simple fact that there is a non-zero risk certainly makes me think a little bit. You summed it up well and the examples are spot on - this is why I immediately wonderd if developers here are publishing the source code on their customized versions. Ignoring the GPL angle, its just good to know it's out there if it is, and by the same token, also good to know if it's not out there.
I have another question to add. I love miui, and to my understanding miui is made by Chinese developers and it is not open source, it is just translated and ported to our devices. If it is not open source, is there anyway to know for sure?
I am a little bit wary of the security, although I love the rom. I trust all of the credible devs on xda, however I don't know anything about the Chinese devs developing miui. Would the devs porting miui be able to see the malware if it isn't open source
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App
It is definitely possible. I read a paper a while back that I've been referencing in my own research where some researchers compiled some kernel modules to do malicious tasks in the background without knowledge of the user, mind you this was on an open source linux based phone system similar to android. Basically compiled in root kits, which replacing your kernel/rom w/ a community developed system would result in possibilities of this occurring. The primary solution to preventing these things from ending up on your phone as well as keeping the Trojans and other malware on the android market come down to the same thing knowing your publisher and being careful what permissions you allow. Like stick to kernels/roms from reputable developers on XDA, and make sure your "movie player" doesn't have access to your SMS system and you'll be fine
Mind you my own research currently is in detection of malware/malicous code & anomalous behavior. As well as hopefully prevention techniques eventually.
Hey everyone,
We've made a small change to this forum by giving it a different name. This is now the *default* Android development forum for Galaxy S II. Any works that are completely original will be filed in the Original Android Development forum. Everything else will go here.
We have a more long-term solution to the ROM situation in the works. It'll be a database-driven ROM upload tool that will make it super easy for users to find and rate the ROMs that you upload. You'll be hearing more about this in the coming months.
For now, please continue to provide feedback. Thank you for your help in making XDA a more organized place.
Thanks!
P.S. If you think your ROM should be placed in the Original Android Development forum, send me a PM.
Edit from noppy22: this thread is no longer relevant so I unstuck it...
Sveitus,
I am dissapointed that the original explainatory thread was closed without reason after it was collecting opposing comments. Not cool.
I believe what you've posted (not done, I am confident that this was done with some consultation, somewhere) should be discussed in a wider context.
To that end, I've opened a thread in the XDA general forum with an admittedly emotive title "First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users". Please track this thread, assuming it's not lost amidst the noise.
I would have posted my concerns in the original notification thread except...
What gives?
Just imagine someone from sensation comes here and sees two development threads...
Sensation owners must be jealous by now..
But why is this only done on the GALAXY S2 subforums? Please, implement this on all phone subforum. I want to see how others would react.
Still think this is a stupid idea. If devs don't want other devs recycling their works, better not publish it. Or you can just close the thread of the ROM that was derived from an another ROM without permission/due credit.
The current situation is not something new to all of us.
There were always have been such ''issues'' among the rom developers.
xda team the way you chose to work this out is not good at all.
I'm starting to think that you don't listen to the majority of the users...
You hear a few dev's that probably are jealous of others...
This is not right for the community.
I personally am not supporting anyone particularly, but you must find another solution.
giokou said:
The current situation is not something new to all of us.
There were always have been such ''issues'' among the rom developers.
xda team the way you chose to work this out is not good at all.
I'm starting to think that you don't listen to the majority of the users...
You hear a few dev's that probably are jealous of others...
This is not right for the community.
I personally am not supporting anyone particularly, but you must find another solution.
Click to expand...
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I 100% support this view...
If this is the case, then no custom roms should be in "original" section, as they are all derived from the stock manufacturer's roms.
khein said:
But why is this only done on the GALAXY S2 subforums? Please, implement this on all phone subforum. I want to see how others would react.
Still think this is a stupid idea. If devs don't want other devs recycling their works, better not publish it. Or you can just close the thread of the ROM that was derived from an another ROM without permission/due credit.
Click to expand...
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All hell would break lose and their would be a mass exodus of developers and some pissed off members.
And why was the other thread closed. Perhaps XDA didn't like that all the negative PR they were getting. This plan was poorly conceived and executed. And to make it worse, XDA is being the judge, jury and executioner.
I am quite disappointed that this unjustified separation and disqualification of some devs work is still not corrected. You justified your step by "feedback" asking for it. I believe you are severely misleading people here.
You earned a lot of justified feedback in the first thread being deleted meanwhile and still you don't get things sorted out.
It is obviously totally wrong to piss off devs and force them to prove they are not guilty of what you may think. It ought to be the other way around: you should have a prove to claim what you state before you behave (and take action) the way you did. Some kind of US wild west mentality around here. I understand when people think that you only try to protect some of the devs being closer to you or being longer active on xda than some others. The selection of Roms being put to one or the other section proves that already since there seems to be no logic behind your decisions. Some early birds being put to the second class thread while some others who have just released quite usual stuff but were active with other hardware before have been put to the first class thread. And till now no kind of explanation why this or that Rom has been put here or there? What about Litenin e.g. which has been asked for a dozen times in the first, deleted thread ?
And above all: what kind of guilt do you think of ?
We are talking about open source here and all Roms are derived from Samsung stuff except for CM / MIUI. So where does originality start and where does it end? And who may decide: Even if a custom ROM was copied from another custom one in the first step it might have become an own developement over time.
jlevy73 said:
All hell would break lose and their would be a mass exodus of developers and some pissed off members.
And why was the other thread closed. Perhaps XDA didn't like that all the negative PR they were getting. This plan was poorly conceived and executed. And to make it worse, XDA is being the judge, jury and executioner.
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The other thread was closed because it was a discussion on the Derived ROMs Forum format, which as you state wasn't what we hoped it would be. So, changed the forum format. The old discussion was closed and a new one started to discuss this iteration. The thread was also started and stuck by svetius.
zikarus said:
I am quite disappointed that this unjustified separation and disqualification of some devs work is still not corrected. You justified your step by "feedback" asking for it. I believe you are severely misleading people here.
You earned a lot of justified feedback in the first thread being deleted meanwhile and still you don't get things sorted out.
It is obviously totally wrong to piss off devs and force them to prove they are not guilty of what you may think. It ought to be the other way around: you should have a prove to claim what you state before you behave (and take action) the way you did. Some kind of US wild west mentality around here. I understand when people think that you only try to protect some of the devs being closer to you or being longer active on xda than some others. The selection of Roms being put to one or the other section proves that already since there seems to be no logic behind your decisions. Some early birds being put to the second class thread while some others who have just released quite usual stuff but were active with other hardware before have been put to the first class thread. And till now no kind of explanation why this or that Rom has been put here or there? What about Litenin e.g. which has been asked for a dozen times in the first, deleted thread ?
And above all: what kind of guilt do you think of ?
We are talking about open source here and all Roms are derived from Samsung stuff except for CM / MIUI. So where does originality start and where does it end? And who may decide: Even if a custom ROM was copied from another custom one in the first step it might have become an own developement over time.
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The thread hasn't been deleted, it's been closed. The reasons (while obvious) are above.
Clearer..
<sarcasm>
This titling does make it clearer..
Example:
Original Development: CM7
It's built from the ground up with a myriad of coded additions to be a truly 'Original' product.
Development: Everything else
All other ROMS are stock deodexed upgrades.
</sarcasm>
Don't like this idea...
DaveShaw said:
The thread hasn't been deleted, it's been closed. The reasons (while obvious) are above.
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Closed or deleted - did not see it but no big difference anyway.
And there is nothing obvious neither about the closing nor the separation.
If you like to install a new tool do so. Build it, introduce it. Till then leave things as they were, stop separation and maybe excuse for the mess you produced by an unbiased decision... My 5 ct
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I really don't understand what an "original ROM" is. Google wrote the only original Android ROM imho.
here's a thought.
Villain Rom Lite is in "original" even though it's clearly based off VillainRom.
There's CLEAR favoritism going on here.
It should either be merged with the original or moved. It's just the same ROM with removed apps. How is that "original"?
Simple Result:
As far as I see; Some devs are out of business and as far as I feel, more to be...
mynameisjon said:
here's a thought.
Villain Rom Lite is in "original" even though it's clearly based off VillainRom.
There's CLEAR favoritism going on here.
It should either be merged with the original or moved. It's just the same ROM with removed apps. How is that "original"?
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Uhm actually the fact that thread was buried a few pages until yesterday meant svetius may have missed it. Moved it across.
That's grand, we don't have derivated roms anymore, we have originals and others (stolen, fakes, not so cool). I like the way mods are listening...
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I must admit, the way the mods have chosen to separate the two development sections doesn't sit well with me at all. The criteria for which section a ROM goes in to is very subjective and open to various interpretations, all of which are prone to the moderator's possible bias.
Strictly speaking, only one or two ROMs are 'original development' and belong in that section. All the others are derivatives in some way or another.
A better way to clean up the dev forum would be to have a couple of sub-sections; perhaps one for all ROMs (regardless of source), one for kernels and related modifications and another for android-specific modifications. Then, be strict about enforcing the sub-section criteria. Also, ask ROM chefs to state in their OP whether the ROM is based on another ROM and to credit the original developer/chef.
Everything else goes in Themes & Apps.
Also, having a mandatory format for thread titles (a la the HD2 forum) is an excellent way to keep things tidy and ensure that people know when a new release has been posted and what the releases are based upon. It worked over in HD2 rather well I thought. After coming from an HD2 to the S2, I thought that the S2 forums were a little untidy to say the least.
Ok, serious mode off, back to my usual sarcastic self.
OK, I dont agree with the splitting of the forums, but its not my decision and will go along with it. One thing that does really annoy me and needs to be fixed is that this new forum doesnt show up on the android app. Can that be fixed? I like keeping up with a few roms here and am usually on the move.
TheBishopOfSoho said:
OK, I dont agree with the splitting of the forums, but its not my decision and will go along with it. One thing that does really annoy me and needs to be fixed is that this new forum doesnt show up on the android app. Can that be fixed? I like keeping up with a few roms here and am usually on the move.
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No harm in disagreeing! If enough people disagree, the mods may relent on this decision.
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
WOW Man..
pitbull8265 said:
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
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Could not have said it better.... You hit the nail right on the head.. People respect those who back their work with support:good::good::good:
This DOES seem to be in SHORT reserve.. WELL STATED
Impressive
I have noticed this too.. Its like these people are too GOOD for Q&A and sometimes even respond to questions like they are PETTY and an inconvenience.. There ARE some who DO help, and those people deserve to know they are appreciated.. You in particular, have helped me a ton, so thanks.. Maybe you'll start a movement, and more people will start doing their part to help their followers...
+1
There is a SERIOUS shortage of helpers and an overage of shovelers
All these builds keep coming, and still the same problems on the one they put out before with a different NAME for the ROM.. Its like they change the name and recycled it..
I read through threads now, and if the OP doesn't hang out and help their users, I wont use their builds anymore.
Couldn't agree more!! Nicely said too
Be proud of your work.. Stick around and make sure people can..ya know, enjoy it too..
It's quality not quantity that matters. Stepping on other teams and developers to rush something out just to say "FIRST" will get you no where.. So while timely updates are important, if that's the only thing you post in your own thread.. "New build is up" when there's been 10 pages of people asking questions... I'll never support you, both publicly or financially.
I understand new enthusiast can be quite frustrating or maybe you just aren't a people type of person.. team up with someone that is... pass the q&a on to them, but do fricking something, people want support for YOUR roms and if you put out 20..that means all 20.
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Yea, I'm somewhere between this and the op. They shouldn't be 100% absent, but on the same note, some consideration for the above quote is in order too.
While were venting, its possible the devs haven't figured out how to fix some of these issues, but it doesn't do a dam bit of good for 50 people to complain about the same thing and no one is posting logcats. So don't complain about things not getting fixed, if your not attaching logs to every post about issues.
Just my 2c, add 97c more and go buy a cheeseburger.
Sent from my G3, Unlocked by Team Codefire
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
Variety is the spice of life. I'd rather have 20 that will get fixed eventually than just 1 that works perfectly. If they are all too similar for you then just move on to another one, build your own, or just wait for fully featured lollipop which will be here soon enough. If a thread is maintained or not - I'm just happy to have a thread. A couple devs have walked away already and it'd suck if more left. Just be grateful for what we've got and be patient.
Kris Nelson said:
Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
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The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
If you're a good parent, when you bring a child into this world, you raise it, and nurture it... creating it is not enough...
noun
1.
the act or process of developing; growth; progress:
iBolski said:
The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
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Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
Kris Nelson said:
Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
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I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
And since it does appear that you do not have to be a developer to post in the standard DEV forum, then that makes even more sense.
I do know that in another forum I frequented a lot, you were given developer status and only developers could create new threads in the DEV/ROM forum. That was to prevent a lot of "spam" postings of ROMs.
Makes me wonder if that's what is happening here.
iBolski said:
I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
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I wish you were correct but nope, he is the builder and maintainer. Trust me many more than 5+ when you include other carriers as well.. But not just the one, others have started as well... It's very frustrating that after 1 week, several messages of a very specific problem (not mine just someone i was helping) on different sites where they are posted.. I have to track down someone that i know can help but has NOTHING to do with any of these roms...and gets zippy cash.. Though he should..lol
Anyway, i truly value great developers and have learned who to support and who not to. I like to help people so the developers can build awesome stuff and its my way of keeping the simple crap of your plate so you can do just that..but when i can't even find the answer, the developer should be available.
Just saw your edit.. Yes i think that is happening too. I was always under the assumption that builders/maintainers did so for the actual devise and carriers they use.. I guess that's no longer the case.
Oadam11 is a builder of various roms for our G3's from source repositories available for anyone to build from, and anyone to commit to. He may or may not be doing any commits/merge requests - and even if he did those contributions might not be accepted into the various G3 forks.
In any case, he might not be in a position to contribute to feature requests or bug fixes. He might not be running his own builds of all these roms, past checking to see if they will boot and more or less work.
Say Team Vanir does a fork of their work for the G3, an official one. Ok, then you would ask for support from members of Team Vanir, sure, though you might not get much, depending on a lot of factors (including your attitude...) Then consider the possibility that someone just builds something like Commotio from publicly available sources, with just enough tweaks from somewhere to get it to compile and run, unofficially, on one or more G3 variants. I suspect that is where oadam11 is coming from. He doesn't create the roms, he builds them for G3's. He watches the repositories for each rom he has built for us, and when he sees that rom's devs have checked in and merged useful updates, then he rebuilds for us when he has time. Builds take a while. Then he makes them available for us users to download and install them, after some degree of testing.
The point is that he is in no way responsible for supporting the builds he produces of these team's work. It would be impossible for him to anyway. I am sure he gets permission and some degree of cooperation from any team project he builds from, but he is NOT a team member, or major contributor, for all of them. He is a noble builder and distributor, and you should expect nothing more from him than What he is already providing.
If you want to get a problem or new feature dealt with on any given rom, you must deal with the team's source contributers by raising issues on their gerrit or maybe working on an outstanding and team-prioritized bug as a contributor.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Thank you..you actually confirmed the point I was making. However, is the average person going to know all this? Of course not...should they do their research prior, of course but they don't... I see good teams being hurt by this as well.. Vanir just had an issue the other day.. Something is being lost in translation and by no means was i only referring to Adam.
I understand. It is interesting that in G+ just a little why ago someone asked David Kessler of Team Vanir who was their maintainer of the G3 Vanir and he replied that they don't have one.
There was also discussion about someone providing support, like answering questions. The idea of supporting a clueless user who had tried to flash TouchWiz onto a Vanir device, by beating the user over the head with an iPhone6+ was suggested. The devs have no patience with such users, generally.
That said, Holy Angel seems exceptional.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
The problem I have, is that when a person POSTS a Rom, and are the OP, they need to support what they post, and help the people posting questions in the thread, or BOW OUT!!! There are people posting and dumping... DONT Post a ROM if you're not willing or able to help the team you are Posting links to... Dont post it and then say "Any problems, contact THEM"
THAT PERSON mentioned, has a lot of them, all as OP, none supported other than.."New build up"
Raising the age limit for COPPA
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to your liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
DeanGibson said:
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to his/her liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
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Just because you want a feature, doesn't mean it's a good feature to add. If you did that, you would end up with something that could eventually become impossible to maintain.
There are SO many bugs right now in the AOSP code that these devs are trying to fix to make it work on this phone. I would rather those get fixed first.
And, do you think you are the only one to ask for features?
I'm a developer, not for android, but I write code for a living. And what you are asking for is what we call "scope creep". We have to weed out the "must haves" with the "wants". Must haves are the things that they user must have in order to perform their job. This is usually adding functionality that isn't there currently that is needed to complete their job. The "wants" are "I would like to have the ability to clear out all background apps with a single button or swipe". That is NOT needed on this phone, but it's a nice "to have" option, but it doesn't affect the overall performance of the OS itself. Yes, you might say it does because you can clear out the background apps, but in reality, those apps are NOT running. I don't want to get into the specifics of android app management, but those apps you see in the "recent apps" history are NOT running. They are suspended and not taking up ANY CPU cycles, what-so-ever. If they happen to be, then it's a poorly written app, and it means the dev knowingly circumvented the Android OS app management process which is a big no-no. In that case, you should go back to the dev of the app and demand they fix that.
But, you are free not to install the ROM. That's fine and that's your choice, but it just irks me when I see people make complaints like this who probably have no idea what the software development life cycle is all about. To me, fixing bugs right now is the main issue, not adding pretty enhancements to the OS.
And who's to say they aren't working on what you ask, especially if you ask for fixes to major issues (such as battery life, radio, etc)?
Remember, these are UNOFFICIAL releases. They are based off of AOSP source which is pretty much device-agnostic except when it comes to Nexus devices since those are Google devices and therefore, the AOSP source is built for those type of devices.
Android is completely different from iOS. iOS is built for a set of hardware that doesn't have much variance like Android does. Hence, that is why Apple controls both the software AND the hardware of iPhones. It means less fragmentation across devices, but it also means, they decide what is best and you have no way of getting the source.
Google releases the source for Android so you CAN have these custom ROMs built. But, because one Android device has a different hardware configuration from another (CPU and GPU's being the biggest ones), then anything that can take advantage of the hardware architecture for a particular phone means having to change the AOSP source to use any of those "advantages" from that hardware. Which then means, that source no longer works on other phones, only for the phone they modified it for.
So, give the devs some slack, please. They are working hard on it and it's not one dev. If it were, then give the guy even MORE slack. The source for Android is over 12gb along. That is where it's not even compiled. And, compiling the android source generally takes about 90 minutes. So, each "fix" they do requires recompiling (90 minutes) and then testing.
Then, more than likely, the "fix" either didn't work or it possibly broke something else. That means, going back, determining the issue, fixing it, recompiling (wait another 90 minutes) and test again.
That all takes time, people. We developers are NOT magicians, even though it might seem like it.
So, try to imagine trying to fix all the big bugs that you know about, then have to come here, read through ALL the posts and then log those requests down, prioritize them based on all the other work you have, make those changes, recompile, test, etc. It's not a easy and it gets frustrating. But believe me, when we do fix an issue or are able to give the users what they want, we get an extreme amount of satisfaction knowing that we were able to satisfy the "customer".
So please, be careful what you state about devs. Those that do read here usually have thick skins, but complain enough, and they might just quit and then you have nothing.
I understand where people are coming from, but you've been blaming the devs when it's not their fault. Again, the android source is huge and it takes more than one person to work on it. Especially if they are responsible for more than one device. Some devs are working on source for more than just this phone. So, add that to what I already stated and hopefully, you can begin to understand what the devs are going through.
What are the rules about using one of your custom roms on the Amazon Kindle Fire HDX to sell on the internet? Not asking as a business or trying to make a profit off your work, just want to unload some devices. Thanks for all your hard work. I have benefited knowledge wise, greatly for many years. Perhaps there aren't any clear rules. I'd like to know how you feel about using your roms as I want to do what's right. I feel your roms make these devices much much better for the user. Title should have been for developers and others. Anyone who wants to comment, please do.
gwardsc65 said:
What are the rules about using one of your custom roms on the Amazon Kindle Fire HDX to sell on the internet? Not asking as a business or trying to make a profit off your work, just want to unload some devices. Thanks for all your hard work. I have benefited knowledge wise, greatly for many years. Perhaps there aren't any clear rules. I'd like to know how you feel about using your roms as I want to do what's right. I feel your roms make these devices much much better for the user. Title should have been for developers and others. Anyone who wants to comment, please do.
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Thoughts: should not be an issue provided you are selling personal devices that happen to come with a custom ROM. Keep in mind the recipient may not share your opinion on the benefits of a non-stock UX. I am always a bit taken back by how rattled some folks get it when the presentation doesn't match the glossy.