New Hero owner here... using it 3 weeks. LOVE the phone, love the 7 pages, love the widgets, love the screen, love SenseUI, HATE the capacitive screen.
Coming form windows mobile for past 5 years, i am expending at least 5x more time and energy to navigate or browse due to this "feature".
I am certain this has been hashed out here before, but I will settle for a short answer, even one that has a laundry list if you like.
All I ask is that you please tell me it has something to add other than MULTI-TOUCH. I could care less about pinch-zoom. Initially when seen on first i-phones it had a wow factor. But very soon on WM, with OperaMini, Netfront, Skyfire, Iris and other browsers, pinch-to-zoom was rendered irrelevant, as all of these browsers provided way more efficient way to zoom in, out, and frame the area of the screen you want to look at. One tap, or two taps, or grab a square positioner (netfront) and tap.
Regardless of marketing, not only were these solutions fantastic, I alos didn't feel any sense of loss.
Now that I HAVE multi-touch on Hero, it's way beyond "yawn". It's more like, "what in the world is the advantage here. all I see is that a capacitive screen is far inferior to a resistive screen for easily 25 reasons. I listed them elsewhere on an XDA "general" forum. Typing: worse. accurate hitting a target: worse, but not just worse, horrible. Tap-hold context menus, require twice as long to press in order to instruct the OS you're indeed pressing for the purpose of holding, vs pressing just to try to make contact. Takes twice the tap impact to activate GO and other action buttons.
So I am dying to hear what is the advantage I have been given on this fantastic $500 USD phone I bought?
2nd question: I am currently using the device straight out the box, with just maybe 25-50 aps or widgets form android marketplace -- which has been fantastically smooth user experience, with perfect degrees of feedback on what access each app will give to the phone etc... very reassuring.
Has the truly amazing world of XDA-devs made some of my major usability complaints above go away, or lessen (after rooting the phone and using a custom ROM)?
Sign me: Baffled and Dismayed in San Francisco
Are there no replies here because this has been previously beaten to death? If so, wold someone please point me to the best thread discussion on this subject matter?
Thank you.
personally, i love a capacitive screen for typing.. as long as you can hit the buttons. For me i have no problem in the horizontal view, but they shouldnt have used a "qwerty" keyboard in the horizontal view, i despise it aha.
for the browsers multi touch, personally i just think its kinda cool, but as you say not very productive.
so really to me, i just love the feeling of capacitive touch screens...when they work of course!
and i know that companies "try" to put capacitive screens on as much as possible (because the iphone and ipod touch are so popular) but you can only really have it on bigger screens. The hero has pretty much the "bare minimum" screen size, and thats why we have some problems!
sorry i didnt really answer your question, just my thoughts but i guess the advantage is (was ment to be) that iphone touch screen experience, but capacitive screens work much better when the buttons have space between them (on bigger screens!)
THis was very helpful thank you. I know what you mean that the glassy smoothness is elegant and competes, I guess, with the look & feel of the Apple handheld devices. But also you seem to be answering my question, which is really the essentiual thing wanted to know:
Apparently there is ZERO added-value that capacitive brings over resistive screen than pinch-zoom... and that glossy glass feeling.
Is this correct, though? Can it really be that the primary reason for running Android on a capacitive screen is its sexiness factor in comparing to glossy look of the iphone?
I know there MUST be threads galore at XDA regarding the value of stylus for rapid composing, and more rapidly scrolling thru a long list on contacts, going into something like 2x or 5x speed flashing through the letters of the alphabet, then slowing down to land on desired contact...
The HTC Leo thread addressed this quite a bit, with both groans and raves for that WM device...
xsirhc6x said:
personally, i love a capacitive screen for typing.. as long as you can hit the buttons. For me i have no problem in the horizontal view, but they shouldnt have used a "qwerty" keyboard in the horizontal view, i despise it aha.
for the browsers multi touch, personally i just think its kinda cool, but as you say not very productive.
so really to me, i just love the feeling of capacitive touch screens...when they work of course!
and i know that companies "try" to put capacitive screens on as much as possible (because the iphone and ipod touch are so popular) but you can only really have it on bigger screens. The hero has pretty much the "bare minimum" screen size, and thats why we have some problems!
sorry i didnt really answer your question, just my thoughts but i guess the advantage is (was ment to be) that iphone touch screen experience, but capacitive screens work much better when the buttons have space between them (on bigger screens!)
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well i used apple as more of an example but i dont think i was very clear before sorry!
Although the screen is glossy and well glass, but i ment that alot of people like having that "touch" not "tap" feel. like how with capacitive you can barely touch the screen and it responds whereas resistive you have to push on the screen. so this makes companies want to use capacitive so there putting it on alot of the bigger touch screen phones
quicksite said:
Coming form windows mobile for past 5 years, i am expending at least 5x more time and energy to navigate or browse due to this "feature"
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well here is your problem. and I know exactly how you feel, having some PDA and SE P1 also with resistive touch. you'll have to get used to it, there is no other way. it looks similar, like, it's a touchscreen! but difference in technology makes it hard to shift your way of using it
same thing as forgetting clickable keyboards where you can feel edge of each key and you KNOW exactly what you have pressed... and believe me, when you get that feeling with almost microscopic P1 keyboard, first few weeks of brand new high tech on-screen typing makes you smash that phone into wall next to you... but it gets better with time
This is the correct answer. Most people prefer the touch feel of capacitive compared to the press needed for resistive screens.
xsirhc6x said:
well i used apple as more of an example but i dont think i was very clear before sorry!
Although the screen is glossy and well glass, but i ment that alot of people like having that "touch" not "tap" feel. like how with capacitive you can barely touch the screen and it responds whereas resistive you have to push on the screen. so this makes companies want to use capacitive so there putting it on alot of the bigger touch screen phones
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I moved from an Omnia i900 (WM, resistive screen) to the HTC Hero (Android, capacitive screen) and I am really enjoying the sensitivity of the Hero's screen. Everything is activated with a feather-light touch which really adds to the experience of using a touchscreen device.
On the Omnia, when I tried to halt a scrolling list with my finger, more often than not, I would end up choosing an item instead of stopping the scolling. This got irritating enough that I ended up using the scroll bars most of the time. On the Hero, the scrolling list amazingly stops when my finger makes contact without any unintended item selection. This probably has to do with the sensitivity of the capacitive screen but whatever it is, it works brilliantly.
The only time when I miss the resistive screen is if I need to accurately touch points on the screen due to poorly designed software but this can generally be avoided. Copy and paste could potentially have been a pain with a capacitive screen but the Hero has a trackball which gets the job done quite well.
I agree that multi-touch is nice to have but not critical. It is the sensitivity of the capacitive screen that really makes my day !
IMHO the capacitive screen is one of the best parts of my Hero (the other is not having to use clunky Windows Mobile anymore). It makes it so much more user friendly - and that attribute is what has made the iphone the best seller it is.
It is so much easier to scroll through my emails, texts, contacts, apps etc without accidently clicking on one and opening. And the same applies when scrolling between screens. In my last phone (HTC Touch Diamond) I was forever opening apps and windows I did not mean to when trying to scroll up down or sideways.
And scrolling long lists (I have over 200 contacts) is so easy. Just flick and let it run and then stop it with a finger. Try that on a non-capacitive screen and you are likely to open something you did not mean to open.
And, admittedly after a bit of practice, I have found the QERTY keyboard is no problem at all. It is almost as easy to use with my finger as my TD was with a stylus. And it is even easier when you are in landscape mode.
Still, each to his/her own. If, after giving it some time to get used to, you still don't like it I am sure there are plenty of alternatives out there - it always amazes me the number of different high-end phones HTC makes.
Resistive touch screen: You have to press harder to make it work better (Rinzai school)
Capacitive touch screen: You have to touch lighter to make it work better (Soto school)
Volker1 said:
Resistive touch screen: You have to press harder to make it work better (Rinzai school)
Capacitive touch screen: You have to touch lighter to make it work better (Soto school)
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Well somehow you faked me out with your zen-like branch differentiations. I clicked on Soto school first --- and I thought, therefore, that when I clicked on Rinzai, it would communicate more aggressive, harder. But it didn't!
Thus, i don't understand your analogy other than making it up in my head, with the meaning being:
Expend less energy and force, grasshopper, and all will be revealed.
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Since the day of my posting this topic, I am starting to feel a shift by gentler tapping. In some cases, yes, I am seeing a difference in better responsiveness.
But I have to admit that this is not always the case. Leading to:
Dac0908:
well here is your problem. and I know exactly how you feel, having some PDA and SE P1 also with resistive touch. you'll have to get used to it, there is no other way.
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I am starting to get it. Quick illustration: My sim card (my old one from t-mobile wing) happens to be going bad, I just discovered. So I had to swap it out from my HERO back to my WING just to see if I could make a phone call. I had not used the WING (resistive) for a while.
I immediately started making mistakes in the opposite direction. I wasn't pushing hard enough now, and was not activating my selection. So, young grasshopper may be getting the Zen of Capacitive Touch!
it looks similar, like, it's a touchscreen! but difference in technology makes it hard to shift your way of using it. same thing as forgetting clickable keyboards where you can feel edge of each key and you KNOW exactly what you have pressed... and believe me, when you get that feeling with almost microscopic P1 keyboard, first few weeks of brand new high tech on-screen typing makes you smash that phone into wall next to you... but it gets better with time
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I get your point exactly... So, sounds like the people in this forum who have had their HEROs for longer time... must think I am just whining! ha hah
Here are my conclusions thus far:
(a) lighter touch IS helping select more easily.
(b) I began to do as others have said on the soft keyboard-- aim your finger just a nudge above the keys. (because the point of tangency between finger and screen is quite a bit below the tip of the fingernail) (** me thinks they should provide a settings option called "Offset finger touch?" -- and I could select that to in fact shift all the target zones of the on-screen keys slightly below the way they display on-screen, thereby improving accuracy dramatically.)
(c) even with "getting used to" adjustments, the accuracy on the portrait-layout keyboard is still lower on those left edge and right edge keys... And thus I am finding that landscape keyboard is almost becoming required for me (and i have thin fingers!)
(d) On the WM resistive screen, I found that, when using handwriting via stylus, the system really did LEARN to compensate for the style of handwriting of an individual by going thru the alphabet to select the path of drawing each letter that best matches how I write... it absolutely improved handwriting recognition) (AND MAY AS WELL SAY: I miss that the most of all things: I loved being able to jot notes down with stylus and handwriting. I used that daily... SO I miss it)
Similarly, there is an OFFSET ANGLE adjustment on the WM input screen controls, which absolutely made a huge difference: I the natural positioning of a hand and fingers in resting mode on a flat object (a screen) has one's index finger aiming on an angle inward. Thus, the angle adjustment was a smart user interface setting, that I would guess WM came up with over time, as better recognition of this issue surfaced.
(e) I can't expect to use my capacitive screen phone in the lazy ways I used my WM phone with resistive: ie, laying down in bed and tapping out a message to send. When I try to do that with Hero, the angles of finger-contact with the screen are "off" from a standing or sitting alignment of where you hold the device and how you strike the keys. Trying to tap out a note using portrait mode, while laying in bed, and holding phone to its side (or any other awkward position) = probably 10% success rate of hitting the correct keys... Mostly due to that distance-factor between the tip of the finger -- the sight-targeting cross-hairs used for decades in pressing most things that need pressing -- and the underside of the finger, which makes the contact point lower than the tip by a somewhat predictable distance.
I still think there are some ways to go where various compensation settings could nail those issues and bring touch accuracy to much higher percentage, especially in those situations of at what angle you're holding the device in one hand, and tapping with the other hand, is "off", like laying in bed.
(f) Accelerometer: again, when laying in bed (lazy mode), the auto portrait-landscape shifting almost never occurs and i have to hold the phone parallel to the ground and flick it in order to get the layout adjustment, then continue at whatever angle it is I am holding the phone.
(g) WISHLIST #2: (after handwriting/ capacitive stylus is brought to market by HTC, etc) .. is: COntext-sensitive accelerometer.. such that it works in almost any hand-held 3d location, and a 90 degree shift = a shift layout command.
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Okay, these are my responses from a Human Factors Interface Design professional background.
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Maybe I will have to talk to "Charles", the guy in my nieghborhood in San Francisco, who just happens to be the designer of the original G1 for Google, both in form factor and user interface of android...
San Francisco can be pretty interesting in that way.. you never know who you'll bump into, just like in L.A. with movie stars!
kenkaw said:
I am really enjoying the sensitivity of the Hero's screen. Everything is activated with a feather-light touch which really adds to the experience of using a touchscreen device....On the Hero, the scrolling list amazingly stops when my finger makes contact without any unintended item selection. This probably has to do with the sensitivity of the capacitive screen but whatever it is, it works brilliantly.
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I am starting to feel this now, too. So I am shifting mental gears in my head.
Copy and paste could potentially have been a pain with a capacitive screen but the Hero has a trackball which gets the job done quite well.
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This is actually where I have the most problems.... way more than touching the screen, which I am becoming accustomed to, and now seeing what p[eople are saying about feathertouch responsiveness.
I have not been able to find any settings for trackball responsiveness, the kind you'd find on any laptop for the touchpad or mouse rate of movement -- from super fast to super slow. IS there such an adjustment?
I want to love the trackball, and I am getting better at it. But to me, this is almost just the opposite of featherweight touch on screen. My finger "wants" a more "sticky" or locked-on connection to the trackball, so i can control it better with micro-movements. For me, right now, it is so slippery as to super-slide way out of range, and shifting fields on form data entry, and , when I am using it on a slider bar such as for volume control or color mixing (chnaging color of a background), it's sensitivity is way too wild for even a light touch attempt to control it
QUESTION: I am not yet using any rooted rom from XDA... I am still experiencing the Hero out of the box. So, are there any added control settings that people at XDA have figured out and added to the custom ROMS?
thank you
I agree that multi-touch is nice to have but not critical. It is the sensitivity of the capacitive screen that really makes my day ![/QUOTE]
peterc10 said:
And scrolling long lists (I have over 200 contacts) is so easy. Just flick and let it run and then stop it with a finger.
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I a starting to feel this now. I was flicking too hard initially -- as part of my learning curve. I am now getting the hang of it and am getting the kind of control you speak of. nice!
it always amazes me the number of different high-end phones HTC makes.
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No ****. what an amazing company... and why I like how XDA-developers built up around HTC... This is a serious question: Is HTC a good stock buy? They seem like moreso than ever, with their new branding and direct-to-consumer marketing campaigns (at least in the USA, big time), ready to leap out as a huge brand in the way Samsung shot up from obscurity many years ago, into a top-5 leading brand of electrionics.
I find it kind of difficult to write with the pen, because I want to rest my hand on the tablet like a sheet of paper which then opens the virtual keyboard. My old Gateway convertible tablet, which only had pen function, no touch, was nicer (IMO) for writing because when writing, I COULD rest my hand on the screen like paper.
I would like to see a funciton that when the pen is in use (Like when the pen menu is open in the corner) the touch commands turn non-functional.
This would, in my opinion, boost the use of the pen majorly.
Does anyone else find this problem?
Also, I'm a lefty.
so right...
using both hand and pen has its pro's but i agree with you - i wish i could make the jetstream only "feel" the pen in certain situations.
personaly, i'm using a piece of clotch on the corner of the Jetstream to cover the problematic area. its a poor thing to do, but it gets me by...
maybe someday, if we'll live to see ICS on the Jetstream things will be better.
it would be great if there was a button you could press to briefly switch off the capacitative touch screen, leaving only the N-trig input. if this could be automated, then even better!
I posted on the HTC website too, hopefully they will pick it up.
I think the best note taking software right now is Quill for our tablet which recognize the n-trig and knows to ignore my hand.
If we had the support and interest in the device here in the xda community (which i don't think we do), once root is achieved, then turning off the capacitative touch while the pen menu is out could be possible... right?
Easy fix, I would think.
The solution to your issue is to use Tasker to switch the keyboard from HTC touch input to null keyboard on apps which you use the pen on.
Creds to posters on the HTC Flyer forum who had the same issue.
the issue is not just with the keyboard panel. it's with the date/notification bar the pops up every now and then..
Thanks for the info on Tasker and Null Keyboard. This works great, although Quill will likely remain my go-to app for taking longer notes.
I have to push way too hard in the Quill app to get pen strokes to appear... Thats the only negative to me. There needs to be a sensitivity option.
typhoonikan said:
I have to push way too hard in the Quill app to get pen strokes to appear... Thats the only negative to me. There needs to be a sensitivity option.
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Totally difference for me, I think it's really sensitive... Or it could just be the pen. Sometimes my pen acts really wonky like constantly giving out input signal even when I am not touching the screen.
New solution for this:
using app like "no system bar"
does the trick, now the root is available
I just want to let everyone know that Sketchbook Pro works great on the Flyer after upgrading to Honeycomb.
This is really an intuitive way of sketching / drawing / painting. I have a 21" Wacom Cintiq at home, but in some ways the Flyer is more useful. The fact that you can zoom and pan with two fingers on the screen helps a lot. And the price is just 1/10 of a Cintiq.
For those wondering, the n-trig screen has enough pressure sensitivity levels to be truly useful. Don't even try to judge it by the included HTC Notepad.
Now, it's very good but not perfect. Here are the limitations that I have found so far:
- Fixed resolution: You can't make the canvas bigger than the native screen resolution... It means that it's not good enough for making huge paintings to hang on the wall. This will probably be improved in the future as the Ipad version can now go higher than its resolution.
- Bugs: Sometimes after changing a pen or a setting the first stroke is not registered.
- Easy to make unwanted brush strokes with your finger when you try to pan (panning is done with two fingers, not one). There should be a setting that prevents brush strokes with anything but the pen.
Cheers!
besides, right hand will easy to touch the bottom bar...
S.C Frecars said:
besides, right hand will easy to touch the bottom bar...
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I always touch the status bar when I use the pen
try quill
After lot of experiments with antipaper sketchbook etc I have settled for quill. That's a app which should have been bundled in first place.
Emama said:
I always touch the status bar when I use the pen
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yeah me too.. it's really anoying
Quill is nice for taking notes and simple sketching, but it lacks flexibility in terms of brushes, easy access to colour picker, intuitive pan and zoom etc.
Quill is my journal.
Sketchbook Pro is for my art.
It looks like the screen is actually pressure sensitive at least done with finger or such devices. All you need is to use the right app which provides adjustable curves for pressure control.
Try using Ravioli Paint which lets you change the curvature and start painting drawing with you finger
This might be due to the size of press point as well, in any case it just feels like pressure control to me.
so the screen is "stupid" touch and needs palm recognition to proper write on it?
s01q said:
so the screen is "stupid" touch and needs palm recognition to proper write on it?
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The screen has no palm rejection because the pen is mainly for the keyboard area.
When I say the screen is pressure sensitive I was referring a special use case where the pressure sensitivy of the screen (via touch) can be used to control pen thickness, opacity etc like the pen.
got that. so the "write on screen" as on SP4 is not possible but you need the virtual kbd in tablet mode?
s01q said:
got that. so the "write on screen" as on SP4 is not possible but you need the virtual kbd in tablet mode?
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Yes the screen is not pressure sensitive to the pen, however you can use the pen on screen via "any pen". If you are into drawing the tablet area is far superior to SP4 ntrig, I used to have Surface Book and I hated it. The screen is nice the batter is great but the pen is piece of junk compared to wacom. It has no subtle sensing. I felt like I was drawing with a knife on a glass surface.
thanks. will get mine today. have an XP-Pen here. maybe I will try that for "any pen"
s01q said:
thanks. will get mine today. have an XP-Pen here. maybe I will try that for "any pen"
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One nice thing about having a separate drawing area and no palm rejection on the screen is that you do not have to move your pen from the surface area to do finger gestures on the screen. WHen there is palm rejection you always have to move the pen away from the screen to use finger gestures or finger touchses since both wont work at the same time.