Hey guys, I am using Leedroid ROM v.5 and I want to know which kernel is the best for battery life, performance, beats audio and stability? I own kernels from Lee and from Chad as well included the "forbidden" ones. What do u prefer? I dont know the difference..
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk
Castellano2 said:
Hey guys, I am using Leedroid ROM v.5 and I want to know which kernel is the best for battery life, performance, beats audio and stability? I own kernels from Lee and from Chad as well included the "forbidden" ones. What do u prefer? I dont know the difference..
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk
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im gonna be 100% truthful, even though it is not to my benefit to be..
my source is public how, and i offer features no one ever has in the past.
people like leedroid and others are prolly already making use of these features into their kernels, such as ics/sense 3.5 hw acceleration and better sound drivers what include native HTC 2way call record...
i have not commited HBR bluetooth or usb hostmode or other mods yet, since my previous ones are being used, and no one is giving credit.
so, since others are using my work as well as theirs... its basicly up to who you want to use...
the more commits i make, i know the more i will be kanged. nothing i commited yet is anything major - just a base, updates, and minor changes, and porting drivers from 1 device to another. my future modifications involve serious time and effort, and as of now with the kanging going on, im not 100% sure i will ever commit those for release here on XDA.
sorry if i sound like an ass - but the previous drama caused by what people "assumed" i did cost me a lot of time and money. and now others are doing the same i was accused of, but i got screen shots to prove it...
all i want is everyone to do what they expect others to do... -- is this asking to much?
Yea I'm looking for a good ics kernel. Guess I'll wait til Chad drops his.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Yeah, that's ****ed up Chad.
Chad's kernel for the win.
to be clear... from what i can see - leedroid seems to be giving proper credit.
the 2 people who had an exact copy of my GIT on github with NO reference to me or my git had pulled their repos last night.
I believe Chad is better but when I am using ROM from Lee.. Maybe his kernel would be more stable on his own ROM
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk
Chad man its a shame what's been goin on lately, I've been flashing every single one of your kernels and only your kernels since I noticed u back in September. Every kernel release has improved my experience with this device, and frankly u are the only kernel dev I follow and respect. The lazy half ass so called devs that kanged your source are worthless to me and a whole lot of others who follow u and your work. They know who they are and its only obvious who they are, IMPOSTERS! Instead of a thanks button on the bottom of their posts they should implement a f**k off button, they would then have thousands of middle fingers they could look at each time they log in. Keep up the good work Chad. Without people like u Chad them haters wouldn't have anyone to envy and hate on and bite.
chad thanks for the great work for real... i have tried many urs is most stable.. and sure if someone is using ur source will be as well... but thanks for being open and clear.... go man.. cant wait to try urs on ice cream... chad are u going to make any work for galaxy S3 when it comes.... it will be a killer... thanks again for all ur work
Thanks again for all your work Chad. I flashed your kernel last night and it's very stable with no issues. I used Clockwork Recovery to flash because I didn't have TWRP installed. Does anyone know if I should have any issues or does this not really matter?
Hey Chad does your kernel have any adverse affects on OG Evo 4G or would you say they are more a EVO 3D kernel...sorry if this is a dumb question but after all I am a noob
Chad my man I gotta say without a doubt u r the kernel king and for those kangers out there.... [email protected]#k off and get a life. The rom I run has always had ur kernels and always been stable. No random reboots or anything. I am soooo glad ur back an glad I still have a few of ur older rls. Thanks bro
mugetsu666 said:
Chad my man I gotta say without a doubt u r the kernel king and for those kangers out there.... [email protected]#k off and get a life. The rom I run has always had ur kernels and always been stable. No random reboots or anything. I am soooo glad ur back an glad I still have a few of ur older rls. Thanks bro
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+1 couldn't have said it better
chad.goodman said:
all i want is everyone to do what they expect others to do... -- is this asking to much?
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I've just come in fresh, been here at XDA for only a few days and so I've missed most of this story. But, what is adamant is the politics of this entire industry.
Corporations create industry, that's what they're designed to do. But, when they also attempt to govern outside their market, it's the restrictions imposed that may unwittingly enforce the like of scavenger type behavior. Not only with developers, but down to the end user and all in between.
Whatever you determine to be 'Open Source', in any of the many flavours out there, it'll remain as the prime victim; within its own industry, other industries, marketing, and aggressive closed source realms. The balance can only go to members of the bar association whom happily trump first place in the share of cash.
So, you'll have kanged devs, pirates, believers, non-believers, and all the like.
But, with all the politics, ramblings, hostility and time off, it can only make one fear the resilience of what actual leading talents remain.
...so, as quoted above...
WTF GAF GOI and game on!
:: No offense to lawyers, just sticks and stones.
binaryhabit> That is possibly one of the hardest posts of which I've ever tried to make sense. lol.
To everyone else> What's with the hate of Kang's? As long as chad is getting his representation for his work in those kangs, there isn't a problem. If anyone does not acknowledge the hard work of others when they use there work.. then it should be flagged up. There is no need to start suddenly having a go, and trying to take sides.
Chad does a lot of good work, congratulate him and support him, and point out where others should be acknowledging his work if they have used it.
This all doesn't help answer the OP's questin however.
To me, the answer is just try the ROM's out, and see which works best for you.
Scougar said:
binaryhabit> That is possibly one of the hardest posts of which I've ever tried to make sense. lol.
To everyone else> What's with the hate of Kang's? As long as chad is getting his representation for his work in those kangs, there isn't a problem. If anyone does not acknowledge the hard work of others when they use there work.. then it should be flagged up. There is no need to start suddenly having a go, and trying to take sides.
Chad does a lot of good work, congratulate him and support him, and point out where others should be acknowledging his work if they have used it.
This all doesn't help answer the OP's questin however.
To me, the answer is just try the ROM's out, and see which works best for you.
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A recognized developer with grave concerns about their code not being correctly authored, thereby "kanged", by other developers in their own projects; all the while being the only accused of breaking these license agreements.
Chad Goodman had made their comment public and I simply decided to comment on that.
If your understanding is incomprehensive of what I said, then I can only surmise your own bias.
Because, I simply agreed with the comment, not the author in their entirety; as I simply don't have the full details.
binaryhabit said:
A recognized developer with grave concerns about their code not being correctly authored, thereby "kanged", by other developers in their own projects; all the while being the only accused of breaking these license agreements.
Chad Goodman had made their comment public and I simply decided to comment on that.
If your understanding is incomprehensive of what I said, then I can only surmise your own bias.
Because, I simply agreed with the comment, not the author in their entirety; as I simply don't have the full details.
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to set the record straight - for the last time - i will not discuss this issue on xda ever again, and i hope XDA staff leaves this post for all to read.
a xda RD broke the rules of XDA and trashed my threads and was allowed to get away with this. this rd accused me of kanging his work. to define the work kang = "to use ones work without giving proper credit, or claiming the work as your own"
the rd encouraged his followers to trash my threads as well - this rd and the followers never had any business the the 3d threads.
yes - i "some" of this RDs gpu related code in my very 1st kernels - but this is not kanging as credit was given in my OP and other users on XDA found proof of this using googles cached pages, that had copies of my OP where credit was clearly given.
(these screen shots were posted within my threads - but later got deleted by xda staff)
i, as well as other users simply posted screen shots that proved credit was given - but xda mods and admins decided at the time to delete this evidence, but left the posts accusing me of kanging - this was very poor judgement on XDAs part, put with the fact the other RD was allowed to break several of XDAs own rules with zero repercussions in it self is evidence of favouritism.
i was later accused of kanging yet someone elses code, who was a moderator of this specific forum. but yet, my commits on my public git repo were dated 2 weeks before the commits of the other developer. how can i kang someone when my commits were public 2 weeks before that of the other developer? to some (well most) people, since the other developer is more "well known" is the only facts considered when i am accused of kanging - not googles cached web pages, or GIT commit time stamps - once again, screen shots were posted, XDA's staff deleted my entire thread and screen shots, while leaving posts accusing me of kanging - more favouritism.
it comes down to this - every time i was accused of something (yes every freakin time), the accusing had zero proof. i had google's cached web pages to back me up, but most of the xda users may not know this because - xda's staff deleted my posts.
to test the fairness of sr mods on xda - i honestly found several RDs on xda who do not comply with GPL, and yes, about 80% of xda RDs do not comply. - i reported these threads, and some, 3 months later are still not complaint with gpl - but do you or other people care? no...
people were on my ass because I did things no other developer on XDA has been able to do - so other developers wanted my code, so they could appear to be as great as the XDA users make them out to be.
people were NOT and ARE NOT on the asses of the existing RDs who fail to comply with GPL, because they have not done nearly as much as i have. want specifics, look at XDA USER feed back in my threads... or ask other xda users - dont take my word for it.
i never once said i was better than any other developer, and I never will say that, so dont say i did.
and yes, some of what i had done was because i had access to closed source code
but some stuff was all me - such as 100% stable working kernel on hw001 and 2.17 based roms - and 90% working, 100% stable on hw002 and 2.17 based roms - every other kernel for the 3d has reboot, lock up, and misc issues on 2.17 - mine dont. (again - dont take my word for it, read the threads here on xda)
kanging.... how can i kang something that dont exist? how can i be accused of kanging when my commits were weeks prior to the ones i kanged??
leedroid himself is a good developer, and is one of the few who is gpl complaint.
and yes, i removed my non-gpl complaint kernels from xda, and made a gpl complaint one - not because XDA said i had to, cause i did not have to due to a NDA. i did it in a attempt to reduce drama. i have chat and email transcripts from XDA staff that state my beats kernels are in fact exempt from XDA's gpl policy. again to make everyone happy - i pulled them from xda, and made the same kernel but without beats, and on a HTC base.
to this day, i see my commits on my public repo (that us no longer public as of 3-12) on other well known developers gits with no credit given - time stamped WEEKS after my commit - but im accusing of kanging them??
EXAMPLE #1:
-i make a thread on XDA and create a repo on 1-7-2012 for a specific type of kernel - i commit and sync my git, so all of my code, and commits are public.
-a well known developer who has been on xda for years as a RD creates a repo on 1-20-2012 for the same type of kernel and commits all his files
------->based off of the time line there, my work was done 1st. im not gonna say he kanged me cause i never compared the repos. all this developers followers accused me in public forum on xda of kanging him (as well as private message, gtalk, and email). i was accused because this developer was on xda longer than me, and is more well known. the fact is i commited 1st, therefore i did not kang.
EXAMPLE #2:
today (03/14/2012) i browsed GIT repos of several "well known" and "great" developers. knowing my repo was created and my files commited on 1-7-2012, if i see the same exact code in another developers git commited AFTER 1-7, i should receive credit for it. when in reality, several developers have used my code, and made their commits after 1-7, but since these developers are more well known and have been on xda for years, everyone publicly posts i kanged them, when in fact the code changes were an exact match, i will say with no doubt these developers kanged me. they used my work, gave no credit, and some even claimed credit - but yet my commits were before theirs.
like i said several times, how can i kang something that did not exist at the time i commited it????????
am i publicly trashing the threads of the developers who kanged me? no im not - i try to ignore it, until these same developers trash my thread, or their followers start to trash my thread. i do not like to accuse people of things, even when i got stacks of solid proof, in public forum like the other RDs on xda... i try to be professional - but sometimes people can only take so much before they snap.
people - just because "joe" or "jim" or "ross" has been developing kernels on xda for 2 years and I am only here for 6 or so months does not mean i kanged them cause my repo contains identical code as theirs (some even copied my intentional spelling errors in the comments of the code)... again - look at the time stamps of the commits. look at the dates threads are created.
quite honestly i dont give a rats ass that im not given credit - i care that im accused of kanging, and people trash my threads, threaten legal action in public forum, send me 100s of emails to my gmail account daily and xda allows the thread trashing to go on, leaves the posts accusing me of kanging to remain, but when i post nothing but a screen shot of my repo, or of a thread to show its creation time - my posts are deleted. (why not deleted both? or none??)
...yes i got more examples - but i think i made my point clear.
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a reminder: kang defined = to use other peoples code without giving proper credit, or claiming the work as your own.
i have NEVER kanged anyone - period. and i have screen shots that prove all (yes more than one, some dont post on XDA anymore though) the developers you all defend and back up kanged me.
like i said a few statements above, at one point all of these screen shots were posted here on XDA - but xda chose to defend the honor of their long time developers, at the expense of making me look like an ass.
this is 1 of 2 reasons I dont post my work on xda anymore - cause of the actions of XDA's staff - not because of all the accusing, flaming, destroying of my threads, etc that everyone assumes.
reason 2 of 2: all the drama, accusing and what not has caused some xda members to file false claims with gpl-violations against me. a specific user made this threat in public forum here on XDA directly under a post with a link to my repo, and screen shots of the repo. this person trolled to other parts of XDA where he had no business, and reported ALL of my threads as well - some of this drama caused legal action against me where i had to hire a lawyer.
i give you all something for free, and ask and expect nothing in return except respect and common courtesy , but yet - im paying legal retainers??? money i CAN NOT afford to pay...
i never even wanted my kernel on XDA - it was strictly for me and a few friends - but i was encouraged to share it with everyone, and I did, and it was the most used kernel for the shooter platform, and more downloads than any other kernel including tiamat's - must be doing something right? as of 3/1/2012 - a total of all versions downloaded exceeded 300,000 in 6 months (combined total downloads for all devices, all versions from 3 hosting sites)
it was the only kernel that did not have BSOD issues on incomming calls, it had 2wcr, beats audio, and things got getter with almost every release - yes some releases were failures... but 100% stability... 30+ days uptime... come on...
im also prolly gonna be stuck with a 2nd $3000 legal retainer based off of the recent actions of 1 specific XDA member.
...yes I won the cases (the 1st two, 3rd one as of yet has not be filed by mr hotaru) - but still gotta pay the lawyer
and yes i legally can post my BEATS kernel in public forum without posting source to the beats drivers....if i wanted to.
as part of my test of fairness of the XDA staff, and to prove there is in fact some double standards and favouritism - some kernels with no source code, wrong source code, out of date code, or code that is just missing files... i reported these threads
wanna now the outcome? PM me cause if i post it here, i know for a fact i will get banned.
summary
1: everytime i was accused of something i had 100% solid proof that showed otherwise someone just decided to keep this info from the general public, while allowing the posts accusing me to remain
2: if anyone is being kanged, it is in fact me, and i have git timestamps to prove this (and screen shots of such comparisons)
with all the BS - i have lost motivation to develop, and honestly - this is why there have not been many updates, and i have never finished my DEFCONFIG files for other devices..
why should i??
i seriously am soo close to a 100% working 2.17 hw002 kernel - but have no desire to fix it. i
personally own hw001, im running my test 6 kernel on mean rom right now and its 100% working, 100% stable - it works for me...
working camera, video, mhl/hdmi, landscape video, rotation - its all good - done without source from HTC, cause they are sticking to their 120 day time limit to release source....
...so yes, with ZERO source to work from - i made my kernel 2.17 complaint with hw001 phones. and fixed eveything but landscape video and camera preview (related to landscape video) for hw002 users... who else has done this? no one until i or htc releases source...
will i update when htc releases source, prolly not - cause i know i could have my kernel fixed b4 that happens if i put my mind to it.
i give everyone something for free, and im stuck with legal fees cause of people like <not listed to help prevent me from being banned>
anyone wants details or the screen shots - PM me
or just google the stuff, and look at the cached pages from 6 months ago
doubt me or my word about my kernels- read other users feedback on xda
doubt me or my word on kanging - again - google is your friend, and I have no way to change google's time stamps...
every statement i made comparing my kernel to other kernels is based off of XDA USERS feedback and their public posts here on xda - read up for your self. again - i never said i was/am better than anyone else - and i never will say that.
to answer the OP's question
use leedroids kernel - he is good, i shared my entire repo with him (not beats, but - yes.. new sound drivers), and he will have more updates than me, and he will know what parts to use to bring the best experience to his users.
i expect a vacation and loss of RD status after this post...so nice knowing you all.
and im sure this post may even be deleted before everyone gets to read it...seems to be a pattern with my posts/threads - even stuff related to actual development.
hell - i even made a ville ruu thread the other day that i had to ask XDA to remove cause of the trolling, hatemail, etc..
trying to share things with the community and i get **** on... so why bother...
You got hatemail for uploading that ruu? Wow, what a bunch of babies.
chad.goodman said:
to set the record straight - for the last time...
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First off, I'd like to thank Chad for publicly expressing these concerns to the broader community without apprehension.
Second, I'm surprised there's barely a reply.
I'll keep this rant brief:
The user Chad Goodman may by (U.S.A x;x.x) freely choose to mediate lawful concerns held accused by any responsible source of medium whereby both parties are bound by (U.S.A x;x.x) and in trust of an agreement on (date) of the stipulated terms and conditions of the legally bound U.S.A. based hosting authority.
The user Chad Goodman may warrant their concerns without the fear of repression by the owners, operators, or parties of the hosting authority, or by fear of other members within its registrar, so long as Chad is in compliance of (U.S.A x;x.x) and the terms and conditions of the hosting authority, all of whom are legally responsible and bound by (U.S.A x:x.x).
Basically, to alienate any person of this right brings a good case of discrimination and defamation in itself. There is also a potential case of intentional interference with a prospective business because of the closed source code that obviously marketed, and possibly funds, the developers work and any related bodies of interest, or associates.
Defamation is costly($300k min) and specifically reserved for the wealthy elite, but this case may open with intentional interference.
GPL is not an excuse for subversion.
xcpefrmreality said:
You got hatemail for uploading that ruu? Wow, what a bunch of babies.
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Just add it to the talent pool... and unfortunately say it all farewell.
Chad I knew from the og evo forum you were having problems I remember when your kernel was first taken Down from that forum but I did not know it went to this extent I am am avid user of your kernels even when I had my og EVO and couldn't get it to work I still tried finding a Rom it would work with. But then I came to the shooter and seen your work was back and was happy as ever and still glad that you have stayed imho you are the best kernel dev xda has and you deserve the credit but if this continues I don't blame you for leaving but I wish you luck man thank you for being good to us.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
bigjack216 said:
Chad I knew from the og evo forum you were having problems I remember when your kernel was first taken Down from that forum but I did not know it went to this extent I am am avid user of your kernels even when I had my og EVO and couldn't get it to work I still tried finding a Rom it would work with. But then I came to the shooter and seen your work was back and was happy as ever and still glad that you have stayed imho you are the best kernel dev xda has and you deserve the credit but if this continues I don't blame you for leaving but I wish you luck man thank you for being good to us.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
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very well said man....we always appreciate ppl such as yourself
Related
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
I'm going to leave this open for the time being with the understanding that the thread may be closed by the designated Moderator for this forum the moment the thread goes off-topic.
I'm about as "true developer" as you can get. I've written software in machine language and entered it in hex with a 16-key pad. I've written embedded systems. I've written software that was good enough that MS bought the company. I've written drivers. I've run dev shops with 400 employees. I have systems in production that process more than $150 billion worth of annual global transactions. There isn't a lot in the software world that I haven't tried my hand at.
And *I* don't have the time to screw around with building something like Nero v3. But I flashed it the other day and it rocked the tits off my previously-stock-Eclair phone, and I was pretty satisfied with the whole thing, and it never once occurred to me to wonder whether the TW guys were "real" developers or not.
In short: who cares? I willing to bet I can lay claim to the title "developer" on par with the hardest of the hardcore coders here, and I'm here to tell you if it bothers you that they're calling themselves developers because you suspect they may not size up to your standards, you should probably just move along -- or keep it to yourself.
Maybe a swift kick in the balls would've been kinder.....a little over the line I think. I really don't care who it is, but anyone who takes the time to change framwork or "reskin" a ROM has done more than my fat little fingers can do. They may not all be as great as Team Whiskey or Eugene, but they still develop something, so in short, sure they are all developers. As long as someone gives credit where due, and asked permission where necessary, then the laws of the universe are still being followed......
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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I think it is a fair enough question to post... but I ask you, what is it that you hope to answer or establish? Guidelines to correct nomenclature? E-peen? I just don't quite get the nature of your interrogatory...
hilaireg said:
I'm going to leave this open for the time being with the understanding that the thread may be closed by the designated Moderator for this forum the moment the thread goes off-topic.
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Kudos to you... that is exactly why a functioning MOD committee is a great thing for XDA. I applaud your commitment to open discourse.
MV10 said:
I'm about as "true developer" as you can get. I've written software in machine language and entered it in hex with a 16-key pad. I've written embedded systems. I've written software that was good enough that MS bought the company. I've written drivers. I've run dev shops with 400 employees. I have systems in production that process more than $150 billion worth of annual global transactions. There isn't a lot in the software world that I haven't tried my hand at.
And *I* don't have the time to screw around with building something like Nero v3. But I flashed it the other day and it rocked the tits off my previously-stock-Eclair phone, and I was pretty satisfied with the whole thing, and it never once occurred to me to wonder whether the TW guys were "real" developers or not.
In short: who cares? I willing to bet I can lay claim to the title "developer" on par with the hardest of the hardcore coders here, and I'm here to tell you if it bothers you that they're calling themselves developers because you suspect they may not size up to your standards, you should probably just move along -- or keep it to yourself.
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Listing your credentials may (and I stress may) have been a bit over the top... but point well taken nonetheless.
gtiryan said:
Maybe a swift kick in the balls would've been kinder.....a little over the line I think. I really don't care who it is, but anyone who takes the time to change framwork or "reskin" a ROM has done more than my fat little fingers can do. They may not all be as great as Team Whiskey or Eugene, but they still develop something, so in short, sure they are all developers. As long as someone gives credit where due, and asked permission where necessary, then the laws of the universe are still being followed......
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Also very fair point...
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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Soo, you call two set of dev teams just skinners.. and one team coders, yet expect not to start a flame war?
I also don't know how you get "many of master's axura roms" there is only ONE axura rom.. And if you look at features, you could tell that it is not just a "Skin" you could also tell that in the change-logs if you looked past "Just framework mods" framework mods aren't just images btw.
If you honestly don't want to start a flame war, it is best not to post these types of threads.
I've considered this question myself and the answer I've come up with is, I don't care.
Whether they're truly writing new code or just reskinning or theming it's still more than I can do. They do it in their spare time and offer their work to us for free. So I guess my question to you is, what difference does it make?
Poser said:
Listing your credentials may (and I stress may) have been a bit over the top... but point well taken nonetheless.
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I have a pretty strong suspicion that the OP is a developer and is trying to pull the "harder-core than thou" card, so it seemed appropriate at the time.
There is ALWAYS somebody better than you. If you're smart, you'll call those people "employees."
I agree with that I don't really care, as long as who ever it may be, don't start releasing garbage that bricks my phone, I'm content.
I don't run an empire of $888.000.656.99...gabillion dollars with 2 interlaced brains that can code the matrix's live wallpaper, but in my little, I'm able to flash a ROM or 2.
XPLANE9 said:
After searching through the changelogs of many of Team Whiskey's and Master's Axura roms, I have noticed that many of the changelog features are framework changes and new skins on the stock rom. That being said, I am not flaming anyone as I do appreciate their work but are many devs for the Vibrant skinners or true coders such as Barack, Eugene, etc?
Again, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START FLAMING PEOPLE!
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When you write something remotely as good as Axura or V3 then you can make these statements.
Until then you're just being an ignorant troll.
The op is a flame in itself, why is it still up?
willsnews said:
The op is a flame in itself, why is it still up?
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^^Have to agree personally.
Anyway, anyone who develops something is a developer (dur). This means themes, mods, guides, roms, etc.
As for the ignorant comment the OP made about changelogs, most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
Yes some roms available on any phone's forum are more build around aesthetic changes, while others are geared towards efficiency, while others for raw power. That doesn't make one superior to another, but rather simply built for a different consumer.
MWBehr said:
^^Have to agree personally.
Anyway, anyone who develops something is a developer (dur). This means themes, mods, guides, roms, etc.
As for the ignorant comment the OP made about changelogs, most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
Yes some roms available on any phone's forum are more build around aesthetic changes, while others are geared towards efficiency, while others for raw power. That doesn't make one superior to another, but rather simply built for a different consumer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i just made a do-do in the toilet, am i a developer?
jk lol
MWBehr said:
most "devs" don't take the time to list off every detail of the performance enhancements they made. Why? Because you wouldn't know what they're talking about if they did, and there's too many to list. If you're one of the few that could actually read and understand such a changelog, then you probably could be/are making your own roms anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with this. I remember on Obsidian V5 Sombionix listed in the change log in great detail what he changed including userscripts and kernel tweaks only to be bombarded with questions about what they meant/do. A lot of the users don't understand the technical aspects and just want something "cool." Devs already get blasted with a barrage of questions and really don't need to add more fuel to the fire so to speak. It seems the OP more or less called TW and Master "skinners." The above says otherwise regarding TW and as for Master just look at the layout of his latest "beast" not to mention the Sense port he got booting on our phones. I would definitely call this development, wouldn't you agree?
xriderx66 said:
i just made a do-do in the toilet, am i a developer?
jk lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know you were only making a joke, but basically (using it as an anology of course) yes. Is a kid that picks up an instrument for the first time a musician? Yes. Is he good or does anyone care that he's a musician? Probably not (other than his parents). Should he share his work with the world? Again, only his parents should hear it.
The point isn't "are you or aren't you a developer" it's simply a mater of what we percieve as different levels in skill. This doesn't even mean that our perception is accurate, but we're entitled to our opinions. And if you think a developer should have kept his work to himself or herself, then don't download it, and all is right in the world.
So yes, if you develop crap, you're still a developer, just maybe shouldn't share your product with the world
Zip Developer, Cyanogen and his Merry men or somebody dropping pure source I can careless. They contribute more than half the downloaders and requesters wanting more.
I say let them do their Jobs and be greatful they are here. Use somebody elses work and give them credit as long as its an option. I like options
Hey everyone,
We've made a small change to this forum by giving it a different name. This is now the *default* Android development forum for Galaxy S II. Any works that are completely original will be filed in the Original Android Development forum. Everything else will go here.
We have a more long-term solution to the ROM situation in the works. It'll be a database-driven ROM upload tool that will make it super easy for users to find and rate the ROMs that you upload. You'll be hearing more about this in the coming months.
For now, please continue to provide feedback. Thank you for your help in making XDA a more organized place.
Thanks!
P.S. If you think your ROM should be placed in the Original Android Development forum, send me a PM.
Edit from noppy22: this thread is no longer relevant so I unstuck it...
Sveitus,
I am dissapointed that the original explainatory thread was closed without reason after it was collecting opposing comments. Not cool.
I believe what you've posted (not done, I am confident that this was done with some consultation, somewhere) should be discussed in a wider context.
To that end, I've opened a thread in the XDA general forum with an admittedly emotive title "First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users". Please track this thread, assuming it's not lost amidst the noise.
I would have posted my concerns in the original notification thread except...
What gives?
Just imagine someone from sensation comes here and sees two development threads...
Sensation owners must be jealous by now..
But why is this only done on the GALAXY S2 subforums? Please, implement this on all phone subforum. I want to see how others would react.
Still think this is a stupid idea. If devs don't want other devs recycling their works, better not publish it. Or you can just close the thread of the ROM that was derived from an another ROM without permission/due credit.
The current situation is not something new to all of us.
There were always have been such ''issues'' among the rom developers.
xda team the way you chose to work this out is not good at all.
I'm starting to think that you don't listen to the majority of the users...
You hear a few dev's that probably are jealous of others...
This is not right for the community.
I personally am not supporting anyone particularly, but you must find another solution.
giokou said:
The current situation is not something new to all of us.
There were always have been such ''issues'' among the rom developers.
xda team the way you chose to work this out is not good at all.
I'm starting to think that you don't listen to the majority of the users...
You hear a few dev's that probably are jealous of others...
This is not right for the community.
I personally am not supporting anyone particularly, but you must find another solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I 100% support this view...
If this is the case, then no custom roms should be in "original" section, as they are all derived from the stock manufacturer's roms.
khein said:
But why is this only done on the GALAXY S2 subforums? Please, implement this on all phone subforum. I want to see how others would react.
Still think this is a stupid idea. If devs don't want other devs recycling their works, better not publish it. Or you can just close the thread of the ROM that was derived from an another ROM without permission/due credit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All hell would break lose and their would be a mass exodus of developers and some pissed off members.
And why was the other thread closed. Perhaps XDA didn't like that all the negative PR they were getting. This plan was poorly conceived and executed. And to make it worse, XDA is being the judge, jury and executioner.
I am quite disappointed that this unjustified separation and disqualification of some devs work is still not corrected. You justified your step by "feedback" asking for it. I believe you are severely misleading people here.
You earned a lot of justified feedback in the first thread being deleted meanwhile and still you don't get things sorted out.
It is obviously totally wrong to piss off devs and force them to prove they are not guilty of what you may think. It ought to be the other way around: you should have a prove to claim what you state before you behave (and take action) the way you did. Some kind of US wild west mentality around here. I understand when people think that you only try to protect some of the devs being closer to you or being longer active on xda than some others. The selection of Roms being put to one or the other section proves that already since there seems to be no logic behind your decisions. Some early birds being put to the second class thread while some others who have just released quite usual stuff but were active with other hardware before have been put to the first class thread. And till now no kind of explanation why this or that Rom has been put here or there? What about Litenin e.g. which has been asked for a dozen times in the first, deleted thread ?
And above all: what kind of guilt do you think of ?
We are talking about open source here and all Roms are derived from Samsung stuff except for CM / MIUI. So where does originality start and where does it end? And who may decide: Even if a custom ROM was copied from another custom one in the first step it might have become an own developement over time.
jlevy73 said:
All hell would break lose and their would be a mass exodus of developers and some pissed off members.
And why was the other thread closed. Perhaps XDA didn't like that all the negative PR they were getting. This plan was poorly conceived and executed. And to make it worse, XDA is being the judge, jury and executioner.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The other thread was closed because it was a discussion on the Derived ROMs Forum format, which as you state wasn't what we hoped it would be. So, changed the forum format. The old discussion was closed and a new one started to discuss this iteration. The thread was also started and stuck by svetius.
zikarus said:
I am quite disappointed that this unjustified separation and disqualification of some devs work is still not corrected. You justified your step by "feedback" asking for it. I believe you are severely misleading people here.
You earned a lot of justified feedback in the first thread being deleted meanwhile and still you don't get things sorted out.
It is obviously totally wrong to piss off devs and force them to prove they are not guilty of what you may think. It ought to be the other way around: you should have a prove to claim what you state before you behave (and take action) the way you did. Some kind of US wild west mentality around here. I understand when people think that you only try to protect some of the devs being closer to you or being longer active on xda than some others. The selection of Roms being put to one or the other section proves that already since there seems to be no logic behind your decisions. Some early birds being put to the second class thread while some others who have just released quite usual stuff but were active with other hardware before have been put to the first class thread. And till now no kind of explanation why this or that Rom has been put here or there? What about Litenin e.g. which has been asked for a dozen times in the first, deleted thread ?
And above all: what kind of guilt do you think of ?
We are talking about open source here and all Roms are derived from Samsung stuff except for CM / MIUI. So where does originality start and where does it end? And who may decide: Even if a custom ROM was copied from another custom one in the first step it might have become an own developement over time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thread hasn't been deleted, it's been closed. The reasons (while obvious) are above.
Clearer..
<sarcasm>
This titling does make it clearer..
Example:
Original Development: CM7
It's built from the ground up with a myriad of coded additions to be a truly 'Original' product.
Development: Everything else
All other ROMS are stock deodexed upgrades.
</sarcasm>
Don't like this idea...
DaveShaw said:
The thread hasn't been deleted, it's been closed. The reasons (while obvious) are above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Closed or deleted - did not see it but no big difference anyway.
And there is nothing obvious neither about the closing nor the separation.
If you like to install a new tool do so. Build it, introduce it. Till then leave things as they were, stop separation and maybe excuse for the mess you produced by an unbiased decision... My 5 ct
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I really don't understand what an "original ROM" is. Google wrote the only original Android ROM imho.
here's a thought.
Villain Rom Lite is in "original" even though it's clearly based off VillainRom.
There's CLEAR favoritism going on here.
It should either be merged with the original or moved. It's just the same ROM with removed apps. How is that "original"?
Simple Result:
As far as I see; Some devs are out of business and as far as I feel, more to be...
mynameisjon said:
here's a thought.
Villain Rom Lite is in "original" even though it's clearly based off VillainRom.
There's CLEAR favoritism going on here.
It should either be merged with the original or moved. It's just the same ROM with removed apps. How is that "original"?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhm actually the fact that thread was buried a few pages until yesterday meant svetius may have missed it. Moved it across.
That's grand, we don't have derivated roms anymore, we have originals and others (stolen, fakes, not so cool). I like the way mods are listening...
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I must admit, the way the mods have chosen to separate the two development sections doesn't sit well with me at all. The criteria for which section a ROM goes in to is very subjective and open to various interpretations, all of which are prone to the moderator's possible bias.
Strictly speaking, only one or two ROMs are 'original development' and belong in that section. All the others are derivatives in some way or another.
A better way to clean up the dev forum would be to have a couple of sub-sections; perhaps one for all ROMs (regardless of source), one for kernels and related modifications and another for android-specific modifications. Then, be strict about enforcing the sub-section criteria. Also, ask ROM chefs to state in their OP whether the ROM is based on another ROM and to credit the original developer/chef.
Everything else goes in Themes & Apps.
Also, having a mandatory format for thread titles (a la the HD2 forum) is an excellent way to keep things tidy and ensure that people know when a new release has been posted and what the releases are based upon. It worked over in HD2 rather well I thought. After coming from an HD2 to the S2, I thought that the S2 forums were a little untidy to say the least.
Ok, serious mode off, back to my usual sarcastic self.
OK, I dont agree with the splitting of the forums, but its not my decision and will go along with it. One thing that does really annoy me and needs to be fixed is that this new forum doesnt show up on the android app. Can that be fixed? I like keeping up with a few roms here and am usually on the move.
TheBishopOfSoho said:
OK, I dont agree with the splitting of the forums, but its not my decision and will go along with it. One thing that does really annoy me and needs to be fixed is that this new forum doesnt show up on the android app. Can that be fixed? I like keeping up with a few roms here and am usually on the move.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No harm in disagreeing! If enough people disagree, the mods may relent on this decision.
or does anyone else feel like we dont have enough aosp love? I mean we have miui, cm7, had decks(went ghostbusters on us) and empiire(heard he got grounded for molesting his hard drive.) I understand theirs still kinks to be worked out but everything is Sense. Just wanted to see who else felt this way. PLEASE DONT COME IN AND START A PARAGRAPH WAR, I read enough in high school.
Temari x Shikamaru
Evervolv exists.
il Duce said:
Evervolv exists.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Link please. Ive been hunting it.
Temari x Shikamaru
Talked to shift on twitter yesterday, he said CM7 is being worked on. I honestly think what it is that people are happy with their phones just the way they are, so it brings less crowd. While it is smaller than the original Evo, there is still a pretty big following. Plus, this is just a US phone, so when comparing the Sensation with us is like apple and oranges. We just got mike and androidrevolution! Which is great.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
PatrickHuey said:
Talked to shift on twitter yesterday, he said CM7 is being worked on. I honestly think what it is that people are happy with their phones just the way they are, so it brings less crowd. While it is smaller than the original Evo, there is still a pretty big following. Plus, this is just a US phone, so when comparing the Sensation with us is like apple and oranges. We just got mike and androidrevolution! Which is great.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not just US. Theres gsm models for overseas.
Temari x Shikamaru
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Can the gsm users get some aosp love? Any roms?
Sent from my Evo 3D GSM...bring on the AOSP!!!
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This man is right. Most AOSP is done by Cyanogenmod devs and kanged from there. I can guarantee you when they come out with a CM7 RC, there will magically be other AOSP roms.
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your right. I forgot about that.
Temari x Shikamaru
housry23 said:
The problem is, most AOSP ROM's(99.99%) are based off CM kernel source, so with no update to CM, there's no update to other AOSP ROM's. Many devs might want to wait until a few more bugs are worked out of CM before they start kanging. Once we get an RC1 or a stable CM release, you may see more AOSP love.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn. Such a long read. It was good though.
Temari x Shikamaru
knowledge561 said:
Damn. Such a long read. It was good though.
Temari x Shikamaru
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, I originally had hoped for a much shorter post. I always try to get the thoughts in my head out "on paper" in the shortest, most efficient and least complex manner. This is my vision of a more free, "open source" world though. I think the freedom of information could be applied to many facets of society that would create a better future for all of us, and still preserve the competition that drives a more peaceful, better, cheaper, faster world. Sorry again!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is that people don't always give credit where credit is due, which is one of the reasons some people don't like sharing stuff. I mean, let's say I made this awesome mod and let everybody use it. Then some kitchen dev comes along, kangs the **** out of it, doesn't mention me in his rom, and slaps a gigantic DONATE button at the bottom of his signature. It's frustrating.
Now I'm all about open source. I won't use a rom that doesn't post the source. That's the exact reason I won't use MIUI.
SolsticeZero said:
The problem is that people don't always give credit where credit is due, which is one of the reasons some people don't like sharing stuff. I mean, let's say I made this awesome mod and let everybody use it. Then some kitchen dev comes along, kangs the **** out of it, doesn't mention me in his rom, and slaps a gigantic DONATE button at the bottom of his signature. It's frustrating.
Now I'm all about open source. I won't use a rom that doesn't post the source. That's the exact reason I won't use MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I fully understand your frustration. I am a software engineer too so I know what you are going through. I have not yet begun developing for Android, but will. There is a little bit of a problem here that could easily be solved, and the community has a responsibility to protect the intellectual property rights that you and every other developer like you is entitled to. In fact it is a right that is protected by the integrity of the constitution of the united states, and many other countries and law enforcement around the world. This is a failure that not just developers, mods, and admins have, but a responsibility and failure that every user at xda shares no matter who they are.
First off; not to offend any MIUI developers that may be watching, but if you are developing for Android you need to be using a license that is open, and your source needs to be open too. This is especially true if you are using xda as a distribution medium, but sadly while xda has said they encourage, and want every development to be open source they are not forcing the matter. This is a failure I think. It also makes MIUI look suspicious too, as there isn't a way to verify if their source is uniquely theirs'. I personally believe xda should not allow software that is not open source to be distributed. If google didn't keep the open source principle when they acquired Android roms like MIUI would NOT exist! It is highly unethical to take the base ROM from google because it is open source, and then close the source. That is wrong wrong wrong! It is also illegal! You can not redistribute the Android OS even if you have made changes and then close the source and not maintain the software license google has on place.
Second; I believe as a user of xda it is your duty to maintain the integrity of the principles of xda, and Android. Don't support closed source works, voice your disgust so that xda sees the will of its users, that the over whelming majority wants things to remain open source. Tattle your ass off if someone has broke the copyright law and used someone's work without permission and credit.
It is important to keep both xda and Android running on the same principles it started with. Don't let this keep happening guys! This is very serious, a lot of developers are breaking the law doing what they are doing!
Sad Panda said:
I have complained about this over and over, and will continue to complain in multiple threads until more people see the point I make and support that. Using someone else's kernel and/or ROM as a base for their "new" ROM isn't all bad all the time. It is analogous to game development on a PC using another developer's graphics/game engine (only with permission and proper credit of course!!). It saves time, and in some cases help that particular engine to advance, but it slows down new technological advancement in the industry as a whole.
Developers need to start honing their skills, start attempting to bring a ROM to the public that they built from the ground up, that includes a kernel build from the ground up too. Doing this eliminates such a large collection of ROMs that are all essentially the same, and because of the open source nature of Android it brings new technological advances to the public faster. It also raises the bar, the standard. The public will begin to expect more out of Android, and this in turn creates more motivation for a newer, better Android.
I think some developers have lost sight of the purpose and nature of open source information and products. Instead of hijacking someone's source code, and using it as a base for a new ROM with a new name, and small amount of new features, development should be done that conforms to the original intent and purpose of open source. Work together with a developer that has created a ROM [from the ground up] that is most similar to the product you want to create. Improve the ROM as a team, make bug fixes and enhancement to the existing ROM. That is what open source was meant to do. This will prevent a forum list of 32 half assed roms, and replace it with 10 really good yet unique roms.
If you can't find an existing ROM, a Dev team that has different ideas of what make a ROM good, or there is no ROM that exists that is similar enough to your vision of the product then, and only then should you develop something new.
I realize my views aren't going to match up with everyone else, but I am sure a happy medium could be found that produces a situation better than what we have now. Thanks for letting me rant, and for reading my thoughts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or learn to code yourself and create roms from the ground up. Most devs do what they do for themselves first, and allow us to ride on their coattails. Not a bad ride if your like me and have no coding skills. Otherwise, I doubt your plea is going to convince a dev to do anything more or less then they do now, unless it interest them personally.
I do agree with you though. I'm coming from Android on the Touch Pro 2 where a small group of devs are building EVERYTHING from scratch. From the modems to the light sensor. It's a huge job done out of love for the hardware, for fun, and a passion for coding.
knowledge561 said:
Link please. Ive been hunting it.
Temari x Shikamaru
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
he links only via twitter posts and in his IRC, send him a tweet. iirc still in beta, but he does some nice ROMs
Serren said:
Or learn to code yourself and create roms from the ground up. Most devs do what they do for themselves first, and allow us to ride on their coattails. Not a bad ride if your like me and have no coding skills. Otherwise, I doubt your plea is going to convince a dev to do anything more or less then they do now, unless it interest them personally.
I do agree with you though. I'm coming from Android on the Touch Pro 2 where a small group of devs are building EVERYTHING from scratch. From the modems to the light sensor. It's a huge job done out of love for the hardware, for fun, and a passion for coding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your comment and support. I don't disagree with you. If you steal a loaf of bread to feed yourself, is it any less of a crime than to steal a loaf of bread to feed you and your family and friends? Or is it the same or worse?
I think either way it isn't ethical. People need to think less about themselves I think. I must reiterate and clarify so I am not misunderstood. I don't think it is inherently bad to be using a ROM as your base, but it is wrong to then close the source of a previously open piece of work and/or not maintain the original license, and give credit in every spot it should be given in. That would include its distribution, the license, the source code itself, and any where else that you put your own version, app info, and copyright notice. Am I wrong?
Sad Panda said:
I fully understand your frustration. I am a software engineer too so I know what you are going through. I have not yet begun developing for Android, but will. There is a little bit of a problem here that could easily be solved, and the community has a responsibility to protect the intellectual property rights that you and every other developer like you is entitled to. In fact it is a right that is protected by the integrity of the constitution of the united states, and many other countries and law enforcement around the world. This is a failure that not just developers, mods, and admins have, but a responsibility and failure that every user at xda shares no matter who they are.
First off; not to offend any MIUI developers that may be watching, but if you are developing for Android you need to be using a license that is open, and your source needs to be open too. This is especially true if you are using xda as a distribution medium, but sadly while xda has said they encourage, and want every development to be open source they are not forcing the matter. This is a failure I think. It also makes MIUI look suspicious too, as there isn't a way to verify if their source is uniquely theirs'. I personally believe xda should not allow software that is not open source to be distributed. If google didn't keep the open source principle when they acquired Android roms like MIUI would NOT exist! It is highly unethical to take the base ROM from google because it is open source, and then close the source. That is wrong wrong wrong! It is also illegal! You can not redistribute the Android OS even if you have made changes and then close the source and not maintain the software license google has on place.
Second; I believe as a user of xda it is your duty to maintain the integrity of the principles of xda, and Android. Don't support closed source works, voice your disgust so that xda sees the will of its users, that the over whelming majority wants things to remain open source. Tattle your ass off if someone has broke the copyright law and used someone's work without permission and credit.
It is important to keep both xda and Android running on the same principles it started with. Don't let this keep happening guys! This is very serious, a lot of developers are breaking the law doing what they are doing!
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Let me preface this by saying that I agree with you..
However android is meant to be open source, the license that they use (Apache) does not require it.. The reason they chose the Apache license was to give people the freedom to choose (their words). So technically people like miui don't have to post source for anything other than kernel (which is GPL).
This link has some good info on it.
http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html
But even CM doesn't have to provide source, which in recent history they haven't while starting builds.. We can't demand source, when the licensing doesn't demand, but that doesn't mean we still can't prove direct kang. The reason I have android over anything else is the freedom it gives and the open nature of it.
Edit: and you should always credit someone if you are using their work, and also have their permission. I was referring to general source from android itself, not from each other.
_______________________
No d3rp left behind - ranger61878
The problem is, nobody wants to start a ROM from the ground up, and the people that do are already involved into team projects (CM/MIUI). It takes a long time to create a ROM from the ground up that utilizes all of a phone's hardware properly. Look how long it took CM to get 4G onto the EVO 4G, and that was a team of highly skilled individuals practically reverse engineering code to do it.
Now imagine all of the copy and paste kitchen users here trying to accomplish that. It just won't happen lol.
That's why we have pretty much the same thing in different colors. It kind of sucks, but hey, HTC did the majority of the work, and if something already works good enough, the average person will be fine with and use that.
Yeah, it does slow down the evolution and innovation of Android as a whole, but you have to put some of the blame on OEMs for pushing out 45 different phones a year. Nobody is going to be encouraged to create something from the ground up for a phone that will be replaced and obsolete by the time they're finished.
The G1 is the prime example of a great phone that got tons of developer support, tons of new things, and tons of unique ROMs. But that was the beginning, and I doubt that's ever going to happen again.
HTC all but pushed this EVO 3D out, and forgot about it. They've released a good 19 phones since then at the rate they're going, most of us will have moved on to the next one in a few months. Sad but true.
That is why I have stuck with and will probably continue to use a Stock ROM, modified to my liking and stripped. There isn't much else you can hope for. 3D has failed to really take off like HTC and the rest of us wanted. There is no motivation for any of the teams out there to focus on reverse engineering their ROMs to use 3D. MIUI to this day hasn't bothered with WiMAX and with good reason. Sprint all about blatantly announced its slow death in favor of LTE. It would have been a waste of time for the MIUI team to implement it. Kudos to Team Win and CM for gracing us with it on the EVO 4G. But, hindsight has probably made people mad that all of their time and energy went into something that's getting canned.
Alot of good points freeza. These are paragraphs I like to read.
Temari x Shikamaru
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
Haven't seen the Mean and Clean rom threads, I take it
Very useful post, thank you so much. We all appreciate your incredible insight onto the subject.
Disregard this post.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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Please tell me your kidding...
Lol kernel source means alot more than OC on current builds
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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I don't have time to sit and type out everything the kernel does, and how it can improve performance drastically ,( without OC) but I do have time to say that your info is wrong and I'd recommend researching quite a bit more.
Luthien1 said:
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
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Uh, yes we know this. Complain to HTC not us please. Thanks. Not trying to troll but this was pointless
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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You have to be joking??!!!!
sgt. slaughter said:
You have to be joking??!!!!
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Lol I think he is confusing modems with kernels hahahahaha
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC
there are some, including myself and leedroid for example who actually enhance the phone experience
my kernels for example: i dont really OC either - i run everything at mfg spec
--> some features may need additional support from the rom
1) better battery life
2) way better audio quality (in both aosp and sense, with or without beats) . (suck it apple)
3) 48khz/24bit 2 channel audio over bluetooth
4) gpu enahncements
5) ntfs support (see #7 below)
6) vpn and wifi dialing support
7) usb host mode support - support for external usb keyboards, and storage devices, upto 4TB in size)
8) sql enahncements
9) 100% beats sound drivers over AUX, BT, and internal speaker
10) +mA over MHL/HDMI (only on some devices - due to differences in hardware)
11) extended wifi range, with faster xfer rates
12) faster charge rates, even when using pc usb port
13) CIFS access to windows server file shares
and last, but not least - but most important
14) my kernel was the 1st (and still the only as of the time of this post, per XDA member feedback) shooter kernel to make 4.0.3 fast enough to even be usable and provide 100% 2d and 3d gpu hardware acceleration
14a) i had the 1st ICS kernel on the shooter to have working: hw accel, bluetooth, usb disk drive mode support, multitouch, and wifi. --- yes THE FIRST KERNEL for 4.0.1 to offer that
as far as htc releasing source - all i need is their updated GPU code
i got camera 100% stable on 2.17 roms without ANY SOURCE to work from - all the remaining issues are gpu related
..these are just the major changes - good luck getting any ONE of these on a stock kernel
chad.goodman said:
with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC
there are some, including myself and leedroid for example who actually enhance the phone experience
my kernels for example: i dont really OC either - i run everything at mfg spec
--> some features may need additional support from the rom
1) better battery life
2) way better audio quality (in both aosp and sense, with or without beats) . (suck it apple)
3) 48khz/24bit 2 channel audio over bluetooth
4) gpu enahncements
5) ntfs support (see #7 below)
6) vpn and wifi dialing support
7) usb host mode support - support for external usb keyboards, and storage devices, upto 4TB in size)
8) sql enahncements
9) 100% beats sound drivers over AUX, BT, and internal speaker
10) +mA over MHL/HDMI (only on some devices - due to differences in hardware)
11) extended wifi range, with faster xfer rates
12) faster charge rates, even when using pc usb port
13) CIFS access to windows server file shares
and last, but not least - but most important
14) my kernel was the 1st (and still the only as of the time of this post, per XDA member feedback) shooter kernel to make 4.0.3 fast enough to even be usable and provide 100% 2d and 3d gpu hardware acceleration
14a) i had the 1st ICS kernel on the shooter to have working: hw accel, bluetooth, usb disk drive mode support, multitouch, and wifi. --- yes THE FIRST KERNEL for 4.0.1 to offer that
as far as htc releasing source - all i need is their updated GPU code
i got camera 100% stable on 2.17 roms without ANY SOURCE to work from - all the remaining issues are gpu related
..these are just the major changes - good luck getting any ONE of these on a stock kernel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm new to the 3D forums but this is the best post I've seen here yet. Thank you
Luthien1 said:
thanks to htc not releasing kernel source, our dev is at a stand still....Nothing against joel, chad, you guys are great, but damb this 3d technology is just too secretive and they arent giving nothing out... so peace, back t owork
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your disrespect. It's noted.
SoraX64 said:
Kernels typically mean almost NOTHING. With them you can over clock your phone but that's mostly it. Some make things smoother. We only have a couple of kernel devs and they aren't in high demand anymore. Wanna know why? They aren't as useful as people think they are.
Without kernal source we can't OC the newest OTA. That's it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
This is one of the most ignorant posts i have ever read, and I deal with ignorant posts on a daily basis. You know why there aren't as many kernel devs as "rom" devs? Because you actually have to write code to make a kernel. There are thousands of rom chefs because someone did the hard work for them and made a kitchen. You plug in the rom, do a couple things and you have a rom. Kernel devs spend hours upon hours sometimes just trying to get a phone to boot. For a lot of times the least amount of respect, because you can't visibly see their work a lot of the time. Do some freaking research before you make ignorant claims about things you don't know.
I'm sorry for the rant, but this post just made me angry.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
So much anger from one little post.. Ha.
If you read my post, you will see that I said "Typically, kernels mean NOTHING". Chad basically confirms this in his post right at the beginning: "with most kernels...yes, all you get is OC". He then went on to give examples of how GOOD kernel devs add things to their kernels to make them better. Chad is an example of a good dev. He will work hard to put all of those things in that help people.
But I hate to have to say this: you can only change so much about something without making it mostly your own. Chad is an example of someone who puts tons of work into his kernels, which makes the kernel a special one.
Note that I did not say "All kernels are useless, you shouldn't bother with custom kernels." Why didn't I say that? Because I don't believe it. There are special kernels out there.
But take a look at this. It isn't completely applicable to the argument at hand, but it is a cohesive study put on by an XDA member using various Nexus S kernels. As you will see, there are not tons of differences in performance scores, besides a few exceptions.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AntDDKv-lS6IdFZ6VDRQV0cxRXFVT2dKYm94bWJyQ0E#gid=0
Please, do not jump on me because you mistook what I said as a personal attack against developers like Chad that make quality kernels. OP was blaming a lack of kernel source as a cause of "sucky" development. Development isn't at a standstill at all. That was what my post was responding to. If you actually put the time in to understand the words there instead of getting angry because it looked like an attack, you'll see what I meant. The list of improvements that kernel source that Chad posted is fine and dandy and all, but those are things that are added to the development process that most users don't realize are present, nor do they clamor for such features to be added to kernels. The good developers know what those different things do, and since they want to release a quality kernel, they add those things to their work.
Not having those things isn't hindering development. I don't like to say this, but to the typical end user those additions don't mean anything if their phone doesn't run faster. Those features can be added in and people will just say "awesome kernel, so smooth and my battery can last longer now!" without ever really knowing what it is that's causing that (it also doesn't help that a lot of developers don't have detailed changelogs, and instead say things like "Optimized some stuff so that battery is better").
In summation, I'm not attacking kernel devs or saying that their work is useless. I'm saying that the brunt of the work put into kernels that are released doesn't exactly advance development a terrible amount. They offer extra features on top of already developed ones, like better performance, battery life, sound, and etc., as Chad said. But to say that development sucks because the newest base doesn't have kernel source available for it, when a very small amount of people are interested in Sense 3.0 on top of GB anymore, is just folly and I felt the need to say something about it. I'm sorry for the people that I rubbed the wrong way, and I didn't mean anything bad towards any developers.
And also, on a second look to my first post, I should have added that kernels typically don't mean much to the overall DEVELOPMENT process. Except in cases where a kernel is necessary to fix things, a lot of the development in porting and such doesn't rely heavily on a feature filled kernel.
SoraX64 said:
So much anger from one little post.. Ha.
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I apologize for the rant and the anger was more directed at the op than at you. However even after walking away and coming back the tone of your post to me was still slightly disrespectful. Not as much as when I first read it, but I don't believe I am the only one who took it that way. I'm not going to argue about it, I've said my peace, and am moving on, if you didn't mean for it sound like it was taken then the interpretation was lost.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
just wanted to add (a small venting session) - i spend hours - just on camera for 2.17 alone, over 200 - and i read msgs like post 3 ???
camera on 2.17 based roms - any kernel but htc stock (prior to my newer ones) - app FCed - wouldnt take pics at all
my newer kenrels - with no source to work from - take pics, and damn good ones
cost: about 200 hours of work, headaches, and family issues - but it got done
why are my kernels private? and not released to the public...under GPL i do not need to release source to the public if i dont release a kernel to the public - and last time i did something like this, i got kanged, and others took credit, or gave credit to another developer who in fact released weeks after me - AND STILL REPORTED ME FOR GPL VIOLATIONS when i was in fact 100% compliant
just because you all cant find my GIT repos dont mean they dont exist - every one of my kernels, even the private ones are either on github, or code.google.com - and they ALL have TIMESTAMPS of my commits and people still wanted to say i kanged others (who dont have 1/2 the features as me - and who commited WEEKS (not days or hours, but full weeks) after me.. this is why as of right now - i have no kernel thread in the 3d section of xda - but i do have threads in other sections of xda, where people are more grateful for what is GIVEN TO THEM FOR FREE - and yes, there is a GIT repo for the other kernel just as there was for the kernels i had in this forum - that was available to all users (just with beats and intellianthrax removed)
now people are on ME (not htc - but me) for source... my newer kernels are not public
so if EVERYONE who has went after me or made threats to go after me for GPL actually went after htc - they would be posting updates sooner
and adding
1st kernel to NOT have BSOD on incomming calls for shooter
i did a lot of things FIRST and i got the GIT COMMIT timestamps to prove it
one last vent
$3000 for 1st court case re: nda violation and to fight C&D - i won - but i still had to pay $3000 for a legal retainer
*drama on XDA caused owners of the NDA to reconsider their agreement and revoke it.
to date: $300 for threats someone on XDA made against me re: GPL when in fact the kernels they reported (or made threats to report) had a public git repo - and the person(s) reporting was given a link in public forum to the repo, as well as screen shots of said git repo... he/she/they/robert wilson (hotaru) still reported me (or made public threats to report me)
in order to protect myself, i did consult with a attorney - and if the asswipe did actually report me to gpl-violations - i know i will win the case, but thats another $3000 in fees im stuck with
so
$3300 to date in legal fees paid
200 hours just for 2.17 camera to work
wow.... how ungrateful some people could be
pstevep said:
I apologize for the rant and the anger was more directed at the op than at you. However even after walking away and coming back the tone of your post to me was still slightly disrespectful. Not as much as when I first read it, but I don't believe I am the only one who took it that way. I'm not going to argue about it, I've said my peace, and am moving on, if you didn't mean for it sound like it was taken then the interpretation was lost.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
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I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
SoraX64 said:
I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
i put hours upon hours into this - then cause of peoples actions on XDA - i end up putting money into it as well - then to read posts like this is very upsetting
fact is - people are given something they can choose to use (or not use) - they see you can do things no one else has ever done on xda at all for any device PERIOD (and XDA is a huge community with 1000s of developers) - they wanna kang you, when they cant - they cause u legal issues
to be clear - never did i say i was the best - and i know im not
...when it comes to understanding kernels for these phones (or any phone), Ziggy prolly knows WAY MORE than me
--my skill set is around C in general, I coded in C, C++, COBOL, and RPG-IV for over 5 years for the government (and code i had access to)
now when it comes to closed source IBM mainframe (s/390-zSeries) and midrange (as/400-iSeries) kernels -- its on
just look at the features, (and stability) i got working and compare it to ANY kernel on XDA for ANY device - and take into account user's feedback - most (not some - but most) users on my kernels get ZERO random reboots, lock ups, freezes, etc - this includes RDs who pushed my kernel to their phones limit with the intent to cause a reboot
SoraX64 said:
I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone in my post. I guess personal stress is starting to show up in my posting. I was trying to be more aggressive towards the OP because he was whining like many people have been lately about stuff like this and ICS updates. But like I said, stress probably made the post more antagonistic than it should have been. I had a big fight with my girlfriend today and I'm stressed about school and paying for college. I guess I just snapped a bit.
@Chad: Please read my previous post if you're feeling ill-will towards me. I tried to clear up the misunderstanding. I respect your work greatly, having been very interested in the development scene since I first got my OG Evo. I hate seeing all of the crap that you're put through because of your work, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that just because you're better than the rest.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
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No worries. My 3 year old was losing his mind while I was responding the first time. Which is why I was more aggressive, well that and I'm just sick of some of the crap here. Some of the stuff we as users put devs through is ludicrous. And it's time for it to change.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
chad.goodman said:
i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
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Hopefully, here soon, the shooter trolls will start to disperse.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
chad.goodman said:
i posted b4 i saw ur post - BUT im still in general fed up with the shooter users on xda in general - other forums in xda have been drama free - and forums on sites outside of xda have been drama free
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XDA is (as far as I know) the biggest Android development site around. Anyone who asks about development is sent to here. That attracts a lot of assholes (like myself. ) and the like. Seems this phone got unlucky and we've got a bunch of drama queens here.
Such a shame, because of the potential this phone has. I hate seeing morons chasing away devs and then complaining of a lack of development. It makes me wish we could take all of the good users and migrate to Rootzwiki. Much better site overall, because it is less popular. But the idiots would follow there as well.
With the way the community treats devs and generally acts stupidly, I worry that we will soon see days where everything is released over IRC instead of forums. Which might actually work, if you think about it.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D using XDA Premium App
people, including my family, ask me WHY i do this, why i spend hours making kernels
i make them for my personal phone - i want the best on my phone - the best sound, the best performance, the best battery life (yes battery life AND performance)
why do i share? knowing it has already cost me over $3000
well - a great man once told me
-turn rage into hope
-turn hate into hope
but come $6000 in legal fees - you all wont see me again on XDA as a developer - ever
all i EXPECT is people to be thankful, respectful, and civil - nothing more, nothing less
and i know im not the only developer that left the shooter forums due to drama here at xda - a lot of great developers left
(ziggy, the rcmix kernel dude for example)
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
WOW Man..
pitbull8265 said:
Theres something that was pointed out to me by a new friend, that I had to vent about.. so HERE IT IS!!1
Why are some people too good to hang out in their threads and answer questions about the builds they post???
It seems to me that it builds credibility, to help the people using your build, so why not hang out and answer questions, address issues, help finding solutions, offer advice... BE HUMAN
Sure its great that new builds are being pushed out constantly... BUT IF YOURE NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE CURRENT ONE AND EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WHAT GOOD IS IT????
Step down from the clouds, and walk barefoot on the grass with the rest of us.. its cool and refreshing on your feet
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Could not have said it better.... You hit the nail right on the head.. People respect those who back their work with support:good::good::good:
This DOES seem to be in SHORT reserve.. WELL STATED
Impressive
I have noticed this too.. Its like these people are too GOOD for Q&A and sometimes even respond to questions like they are PETTY and an inconvenience.. There ARE some who DO help, and those people deserve to know they are appreciated.. You in particular, have helped me a ton, so thanks.. Maybe you'll start a movement, and more people will start doing their part to help their followers...
+1
There is a SERIOUS shortage of helpers and an overage of shovelers
All these builds keep coming, and still the same problems on the one they put out before with a different NAME for the ROM.. Its like they change the name and recycled it..
I read through threads now, and if the OP doesn't hang out and help their users, I wont use their builds anymore.
Couldn't agree more!! Nicely said too
Be proud of your work.. Stick around and make sure people can..ya know, enjoy it too..
It's quality not quantity that matters. Stepping on other teams and developers to rush something out just to say "FIRST" will get you no where.. So while timely updates are important, if that's the only thing you post in your own thread.. "New build is up" when there's been 10 pages of people asking questions... I'll never support you, both publicly or financially.
I understand new enthusiast can be quite frustrating or maybe you just aren't a people type of person.. team up with someone that is... pass the q&a on to them, but do fricking something, people want support for YOUR roms and if you put out 20..that means all 20.
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Yea, I'm somewhere between this and the op. They shouldn't be 100% absent, but on the same note, some consideration for the above quote is in order too.
While were venting, its possible the devs haven't figured out how to fix some of these issues, but it doesn't do a dam bit of good for 50 people to complain about the same thing and no one is posting logcats. So don't complain about things not getting fixed, if your not attaching logs to every post about issues.
Just my 2c, add 97c more and go buy a cheeseburger.
Sent from my G3, Unlocked by Team Codefire
mapatton82 said:
Exactly, how dare these developers not spend any time in the forums answering the same useless non-informative questions over and over. How dare they spend countless hours building a ROMs for free and then share it for others to use. How dare they spend time with their families and go to their actual job and have a life. How dare they….. (/sarcasm)
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Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
Variety is the spice of life. I'd rather have 20 that will get fixed eventually than just 1 that works perfectly. If they are all too similar for you then just move on to another one, build your own, or just wait for fully featured lollipop which will be here soon enough. If a thread is maintained or not - I'm just happy to have a thread. A couple devs have walked away already and it'd suck if more left. Just be grateful for what we've got and be patient.
Kris Nelson said:
Then why put out 20 instead of 1 that they can handle is the point!!
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The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
If you're a good parent, when you bring a child into this world, you raise it, and nurture it... creating it is not enough...
noun
1.
the act or process of developing; growth; progress:
iBolski said:
The same person is not releasing 20 different versions. Also, most are all based off of the AOSP core source, but each dev might add their own touch/flare to it. But, since each one is based off of AOSP, then more than likely, they will all have the same issues, unless the dev has made some changes.
I'd rather have a lot of choices than none. Believe me, when there is NO dev support (that is, a lot of ROMs being release), then you get even MORE whining of "Why isn't there any ROMs/dev support for this?"
Maybe you're not a dev, but I am (not for ROMs but that is my full-time job). Development takes a lot of time. I do it at work and to do it at home as well, especially for something that is free, takes a lot of time and dedication. Especially, ROM development is NOT an easy task. Rebuilding ROMs takes at least 90 minutes or more, depending on the speed of your machine, the size of the source code, etc. Heck, I've pulled down the git for CM12 and it's 12gb in size (source code only, not compiled) and it took hours to download over my high-speed internet connection at home.
I can understand wanting support if you PAID for it, but this is free, people. Free. They don't ask for anything in return monetarily, and yet, we see people demanding support as if they paid for it. You get what you pay for, and in this case, it's free. But I feel the support most devs give is very good, considering it's free. Also, for things like CM, it's usually not just one dev, but several who have responsibilities for different parts of the Android code base. So, just because one guy posts about it, doesn't mean he's the only dev on it. He might be sending your findings back to the other devs.
Also, you DON'T have to flash these custom ROMs. They all have disclaimers that the dev is not responsible for any damages that may occur to your phone. They don't guarantee support, but it's there for you to use. However, who is to say they aren't monitoring the forums? Just because they don't respond, doesn't mean they aren't looking into the issues you report.
Yes, I understand how you want a response from them, but in the end, it is your choice whether you want to flash or not. They didn't twist your arm to do it.
Keep posting your defects. Most devs, the good ones, do monitor the forums and take note of the issues. However, they know about other major issues that they are probably trying to work on. Again, for most, it is done in their spare time.
I myself would like to build and release ROMs, but right now, I don't have the time. it's not just "make a change, compile, release". There is a lot of researching, debugging, etc that must go on. Those that are programmers understand this. And, once you fix a bug, you don't just go and release it (under normal circumstances). You have to go through a complete testing cycle, retesting previous tests along with any new tests to ensure you didn't break something else. It's not that simple.
However, with these free releases, WE are the testers. WE are the ones that report back the issues so they can be addressed. Post them here, or even some devs have Twitter pages where you can post defects. Not all, but some.
In the end, be thankful you have so many choices. Yes, it may seem as if they are all the same, and in some cases they are and some are from people who just want to say "look I released a ROM" and then you never hear from them again. But, in the case of XDA, to post about a ROM in the dev forum, I believe you have to be an identified developer, so they do have to go through some vetting process. So, more than likely, they are legit developers, not a fly-by-night person.
Just wanted to get that off my chest. I understand what people feel, but you have to understand, this is not an easy thing to do. Maybe a lot of you understand that, but I find that a lot don't. Or, they say they understand, when they really don't. They just "think" they understand.
Wow. Off the soapbox. It just burns me as a developer when I see things like this. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes, I think you need to hear it from the other side as well.
Ciao!
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Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
Kris Nelson said:
Thank you.. Just to correct you though.. There ARE the same persons that are putting out 20 different versions (1 developer. releasing 20 different roms.) That was just the point i was making..
I do personally research before i ever flash a rom or anything..and trust me i donate!! LOL
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I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
And since it does appear that you do not have to be a developer to post in the standard DEV forum, then that makes even more sense.
I do know that in another forum I frequented a lot, you were given developer status and only developers could create new threads in the DEV/ROM forum. That was to prevent a lot of "spam" postings of ROMs.
Makes me wonder if that's what is happening here.
iBolski said:
I see who you are talking about. If you read the OP, at the bottom, he gives thanks to the devs on these ROMs. I don't think he's a developer at all. At least, his profile doesn't say so. I think he just finds all these ROMs and posts links to them. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I am if that person is reading this thread, but I don't see where the OP of the 5+ ROM threads is the actual developer for them. It's almost like he does the "announcing" for the devs of those ROMs.
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I wish you were correct but nope, he is the builder and maintainer. Trust me many more than 5+ when you include other carriers as well.. But not just the one, others have started as well... It's very frustrating that after 1 week, several messages of a very specific problem (not mine just someone i was helping) on different sites where they are posted.. I have to track down someone that i know can help but has NOTHING to do with any of these roms...and gets zippy cash.. Though he should..lol
Anyway, i truly value great developers and have learned who to support and who not to. I like to help people so the developers can build awesome stuff and its my way of keeping the simple crap of your plate so you can do just that..but when i can't even find the answer, the developer should be available.
Just saw your edit.. Yes i think that is happening too. I was always under the assumption that builders/maintainers did so for the actual devise and carriers they use.. I guess that's no longer the case.
Oadam11 is a builder of various roms for our G3's from source repositories available for anyone to build from, and anyone to commit to. He may or may not be doing any commits/merge requests - and even if he did those contributions might not be accepted into the various G3 forks.
In any case, he might not be in a position to contribute to feature requests or bug fixes. He might not be running his own builds of all these roms, past checking to see if they will boot and more or less work.
Say Team Vanir does a fork of their work for the G3, an official one. Ok, then you would ask for support from members of Team Vanir, sure, though you might not get much, depending on a lot of factors (including your attitude...) Then consider the possibility that someone just builds something like Commotio from publicly available sources, with just enough tweaks from somewhere to get it to compile and run, unofficially, on one or more G3 variants. I suspect that is where oadam11 is coming from. He doesn't create the roms, he builds them for G3's. He watches the repositories for each rom he has built for us, and when he sees that rom's devs have checked in and merged useful updates, then he rebuilds for us when he has time. Builds take a while. Then he makes them available for us users to download and install them, after some degree of testing.
The point is that he is in no way responsible for supporting the builds he produces of these team's work. It would be impossible for him to anyway. I am sure he gets permission and some degree of cooperation from any team project he builds from, but he is NOT a team member, or major contributor, for all of them. He is a noble builder and distributor, and you should expect nothing more from him than What he is already providing.
If you want to get a problem or new feature dealt with on any given rom, you must deal with the team's source contributers by raising issues on their gerrit or maybe working on an outstanding and team-prioritized bug as a contributor.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Thank you..you actually confirmed the point I was making. However, is the average person going to know all this? Of course not...should they do their research prior, of course but they don't... I see good teams being hurt by this as well.. Vanir just had an issue the other day.. Something is being lost in translation and by no means was i only referring to Adam.
I understand. It is interesting that in G+ just a little why ago someone asked David Kessler of Team Vanir who was their maintainer of the G3 Vanir and he replied that they don't have one.
There was also discussion about someone providing support, like answering questions. The idea of supporting a clueless user who had tried to flash TouchWiz onto a Vanir device, by beating the user over the head with an iPhone6+ was suggested. The devs have no patience with such users, generally.
That said, Holy Angel seems exceptional.
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The problem I have, is that when a person POSTS a Rom, and are the OP, they need to support what they post, and help the people posting questions in the thread, or BOW OUT!!! There are people posting and dumping... DONT Post a ROM if you're not willing or able to help the team you are Posting links to... Dont post it and then say "Any problems, contact THEM"
THAT PERSON mentioned, has a lot of them, all as OP, none supported other than.."New build up"
Raising the age limit for COPPA
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to your liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
DeanGibson said:
The amount of entitlement exhibited in this thread is phenomenal. Yes, by all means don't use a build if the developer (who has actually done some REAL WORK) won't support you to his/her liking.
That will really teach those mean developers a lesson.
Don't forget to complain about the slow speeds of free downloads as well.
It's also a good idea to stop using a build if the developer won't add features you want, and soon, too.
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Just because you want a feature, doesn't mean it's a good feature to add. If you did that, you would end up with something that could eventually become impossible to maintain.
There are SO many bugs right now in the AOSP code that these devs are trying to fix to make it work on this phone. I would rather those get fixed first.
And, do you think you are the only one to ask for features?
I'm a developer, not for android, but I write code for a living. And what you are asking for is what we call "scope creep". We have to weed out the "must haves" with the "wants". Must haves are the things that they user must have in order to perform their job. This is usually adding functionality that isn't there currently that is needed to complete their job. The "wants" are "I would like to have the ability to clear out all background apps with a single button or swipe". That is NOT needed on this phone, but it's a nice "to have" option, but it doesn't affect the overall performance of the OS itself. Yes, you might say it does because you can clear out the background apps, but in reality, those apps are NOT running. I don't want to get into the specifics of android app management, but those apps you see in the "recent apps" history are NOT running. They are suspended and not taking up ANY CPU cycles, what-so-ever. If they happen to be, then it's a poorly written app, and it means the dev knowingly circumvented the Android OS app management process which is a big no-no. In that case, you should go back to the dev of the app and demand they fix that.
But, you are free not to install the ROM. That's fine and that's your choice, but it just irks me when I see people make complaints like this who probably have no idea what the software development life cycle is all about. To me, fixing bugs right now is the main issue, not adding pretty enhancements to the OS.
And who's to say they aren't working on what you ask, especially if you ask for fixes to major issues (such as battery life, radio, etc)?
Remember, these are UNOFFICIAL releases. They are based off of AOSP source which is pretty much device-agnostic except when it comes to Nexus devices since those are Google devices and therefore, the AOSP source is built for those type of devices.
Android is completely different from iOS. iOS is built for a set of hardware that doesn't have much variance like Android does. Hence, that is why Apple controls both the software AND the hardware of iPhones. It means less fragmentation across devices, but it also means, they decide what is best and you have no way of getting the source.
Google releases the source for Android so you CAN have these custom ROMs built. But, because one Android device has a different hardware configuration from another (CPU and GPU's being the biggest ones), then anything that can take advantage of the hardware architecture for a particular phone means having to change the AOSP source to use any of those "advantages" from that hardware. Which then means, that source no longer works on other phones, only for the phone they modified it for.
So, give the devs some slack, please. They are working hard on it and it's not one dev. If it were, then give the guy even MORE slack. The source for Android is over 12gb along. That is where it's not even compiled. And, compiling the android source generally takes about 90 minutes. So, each "fix" they do requires recompiling (90 minutes) and then testing.
Then, more than likely, the "fix" either didn't work or it possibly broke something else. That means, going back, determining the issue, fixing it, recompiling (wait another 90 minutes) and test again.
That all takes time, people. We developers are NOT magicians, even though it might seem like it.
So, try to imagine trying to fix all the big bugs that you know about, then have to come here, read through ALL the posts and then log those requests down, prioritize them based on all the other work you have, make those changes, recompile, test, etc. It's not a easy and it gets frustrating. But believe me, when we do fix an issue or are able to give the users what they want, we get an extreme amount of satisfaction knowing that we were able to satisfy the "customer".
So please, be careful what you state about devs. Those that do read here usually have thick skins, but complain enough, and they might just quit and then you have nothing.
I understand where people are coming from, but you've been blaming the devs when it's not their fault. Again, the android source is huge and it takes more than one person to work on it. Especially if they are responsible for more than one device. Some devs are working on source for more than just this phone. So, add that to what I already stated and hopefully, you can begin to understand what the devs are going through.