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I considering suing 2012 for false advertisement because it listed 2012 as destruction of all humanity, they're liars . so I would need to know how many people would be willing to join my suit to possible a class action lawsuit. We must save Google, Android and AT&T!
ADMIN feel free to delete this at your choosing.
.01 Troll% .99% What? 95% Human 4% Random
FOR HUMANITY!!!! 2012!!1 AHhhhhh DOoOm Mayan DOoooommM What to do whhat to dooo!?!?!? GOOGLE AND ANDROID EPICNESS!!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!
KJSOARES2 said:
I considering suing AT&T for false advertisement because they listed the FM radio saying the phone had it,but upon learning this they removed the said feature from their site. so I would need to know how many people would be willing to join my suit to possible a class action lawsuit. I have started contact with a law office in Houston, and I intend to contact them tomorrow to see how to proceed. This is for AT&T customers only and for thoughts who purchased the Galaxy S 2 with intentions of using the FM Radio. This is not for people trying to make money for a feature they don't give a damn about.
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This is the dumbest thing I've ever read haha.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Can't tell if real lawsuit or trolling ...
Sent from my SGS II
King Shady said:
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read haha.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
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+1
OP, are you serious? The T-Mobile G2X was advertised as a quad-band phone and it wasn't. Their website wasn't updated until about a month after people started to receive the device. You know what their response was? Crickets. The same response you'll get from AT&T. And this is a lot less impactful an omission. Whether you realize it or not you can't sue AT&T even if you wanted to. The T&C you agreed to when you signed up limits you to arbitration in case of a dispute. Instead of the nuclear option, why don't you try charm and get them to swap the phone or undo the transaction if FM radio really is that important to you. Those are your only options anyway as they're not going to change the specs on the phone or produce one just for you that has the FM radio.
This guy works for apple.
I voided my warranty and your mum.
KJSOARES2 said:
I considering suing AT&T for false advertisement because they listed the FM radio saying the phone had it,but upon learning this they removed the said feature from their site. so I would need to know how many people would be willing to join my suit to possible a class action lawsuit. I have started contact with a law office in Houston, and I intend to contact them tomorrow to see how to proceed. This is for AT&T customers only and for thoughts who purchased the Galaxy S 2 with intentions of using the FM Radio. This is not for people trying to make money for a feature they don't give a damn about.
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hahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahaha!
Good luck with that.
This is from the Terms of Use for att.com which you agree to by using the site...
AT&T does not warrant that information, graphic depictions, product and service descriptions or other content of the Sites is accurate, complete, reliable, updated, current, or error-free. Despite our efforts, it is possible that a price for a product or service offered on the Site may be inaccurate or the product or service description may contain an inaccuracy. In the event AT&T determines that a product or service contains an inaccurate price or description, AT&T reserves the right to take any action it deems reasonable and necessary, in its sole discretion, to rectify the error, including without limitation canceling your order, unless prohibited by law. AT&T may make improvements or changes to any of its content, information products, services, or programs described on the Sites at any time without notice. You agree to notify AT&T immediately if you become aware of any pricing or descriptive errors or inconsistencies with any products or services you order through the Sites and comply with any corrective action taken by AT&T.
In other words, between mandated arbitration and the website ToU, you and your "lawyer" are pretty much SOL.
Barry is correct. You have no legal right or ability to file a law suit against them. In the contract that you signed, you accepted the ability to file through arbitration, but not through the courts.
i'm going to join the bandwagon here. Please do not actually follow through with this.
KJSOARES2 said:
I considering suing AT&T for false advertisement because they listed the FM radio saying the phone had it,but upon learning this they removed the said feature from their site. so I would need to know how many people would be willing to join my suit to possible a class action lawsuit. I have started contact with a law office in Houston, and I intend to contact them tomorrow to see how to proceed. This is for AT&T customers only and for thoughts who purchased the Galaxy S 2 with intentions of using the FM Radio. This is not for people trying to make money for a feature they don't give a damn about.
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here you go, https://market.android.com/search?q=radio&so=1&c=apps
i recommend iHeartRadio if you want to listen to ClearChannel stations..
Its seems returning your phone would be the easiest solution to this issue...
Yeah... At best a lawsuit would get you back a restocking fee. Everyone who has this device is still within their 30 day return period at this point.
Entropy512 said:
Yeah... At best a lawsuit would get you back a restocking fee. Everyone who has this device is still within their 30 day return period at this point.
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Approached diplomatically, I'm sure they'd waive the re-stocking charge since there was an error on the website that indicated the phone was equipped with an FM radio. I've found AT&T pretty decent to work with most of the time. There's no question there was an error, the debate is over what should be done about it.
OP, assuming they let you out of the original purchase, get an iP4S instead. You can sell it on eBay and for the same price or less get an international SGS2 instead. It has the FM radio. If you buy it from the UK or Expansys-USA it'll still have a 2-year warranty.
This is something that could effect us all. What if the world does end? Depending on the survivors there may be enough to keep at&t going.
Does that mean I'm still under contract?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using XDA App
I think your contract dies with at&t. Unless you become president of at&t if you survive.
I know it's massively off-topic, but I really wanted to share my recent telephone experience with AT&T Wireless "customer service."
First, its important to note that I have two phones on my account: an iPhone 4 and the Samsung Galaxy SII. AT&T knows this and verified it on each one of my calls.
Having in mind that I wanted to harass them about Carrier IQ, I called to "demand" that AT&T stop spying on me. I explained that I work in the health care industry and that CIQ (carrier iq) transmitting that data was not only a violation of my privacy, but also likey a violation of federal HIPPA laws.
For each person I spoke with, I simply explained that I never agreed to share my personal information, and I'm not legally able to share my business information - regardless of AT&T's privacy policy - due to HIPPA laws. I would ask that the CIQ program be removed from my phones or disabled.
First person I spoke with (obviously outsourced call center) asked me to hold and hung up on me after 20 minutes of hold.
So, I called back again, and this person eventually said they'd have to escalate my concerns. She put me on hold for 30 minutes, came back to say she found a supervisor for me to talk to, and then she hung up on me as well.
I called back, this time very annoyed. I asked the person from the outsourced call center to either transfer me immediately to a supervisor, and if she wasn't able to do so without putting me on a hold of more than 1 minute, to transfer me to the department that handles contract cancellations. She put me on hold for 20 minutes and came back with a supervisor (supposedly... the "supervisor" was more clueless than the original rep.) (Note that the rep did EXACTLY what I asked her not to do: put me on hold again.)
Now, I'm going to point out again that I only have two phones: the iphone 4 and the SGS2. This was confirmed, even, by most of the people I talked to.
So, anyway, I asked that "supervisor" to transfer me to the department required to cancel my service. She did, and now I'm talking to a person named "Tim" (I also have his last name, but won't print it here) in their resolutions dept. Tim, and that was probably his real name, didn't sound like he worked for an outsourced call center.
I again asked to have the CIQ software removed or disabled from my device. He said he wasn't able to do that. However, he did inform me that AT&T has adopted a policy that they will NOT waive ETF's due to CIQ concerns.
I asked, then, if he'd waive the ETF based on section 1.2, item 5 of the wireless service agreement (....reasonable cause to believe that equipment is being used for an unlawful purpose.) He said he would not. When I asked if that was AT&T's policy (to knowingly allow a device to be used illegally), he said "I plead the 5th." (I'm not joking - he actually said that.)
That was about the extent of my call with AT&T.
So, what's the punch line?
At no point did any of the people I talked to do anything other than read prepared scripts or responses. It never even occured to any of them to mention that it's trivial for the user disable monitoring software on the iphone with a simple menu selection. No one even came up with the absolutely brilliant suggestion that the SGSII doesn't even have CIQ on it.
The cluelessness of their customer service people, the fact that no one seemed in any way concerned with my issue, the fact that none of them seemed to have even a hint of knowledge beyond their scripts, and their absolute rudeness has, however, had one impact: I no longer wish to be an AT&T customer. Even the $140 I'll have to pay for an ETF is worthwhile (assuming I can't get out of it somehow.)
Take care
Gary
Just FYI, it's the iPhone that you have that has CIQ, not the GSII...You're either complaining about the iPhone or AT&T, neither of which reason this really should be here. Can't say it doesn't suck, but yeah, just a problem of relevance.
yahoowizard said:
Just FYI, it's the iPhone that you have that has CIQ, not the GSII...You're either complaining about the iPhone or AT&T, neither of which reason this really should be here. Can't say it doesn't suck, but yeah, just a problem of relevance.
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This.
How many times does this need to be said that our phone doesn't currently have it?
yahoowizard said:
Just FYI, it's the iPhone that you have that has CIQ, not the GSII...
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Really? No kidding? Did you read my post before responding? Perhaps you missed this part:
No one even came up with the absolutely brilliant suggestion that the SGSII doesn't even have CIQ on it
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As far as the iphone (which I only mention as it's the only other phone I have with AT&T and), I also have the following in my post:
...it's trivial for the user disable monitoring software on the iphone with a simple menu selection
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As a matter of fact, you seem to completely have missed the end of the post... Where I state that I'm complaining about AT&T. I thought I was pretty obvious when I described the call in the following terms: "The cluelessness of their customer service people, the fact that no one seemed in any way concerned with my issue, the fact that none of them seemed to have even a hint of knowledge beyond their scripts, and their absolute rudeness "
Do you work for AT&T, yahoowizard?
AT&T are an Orwellian nightmare. I've had calls like this with them. It's infuriating and generally pointless, you'll achieve better results banging your head against a wall. "Ma Bell" was disbanded in the 80's because they became such a gross monopoly. In a generation, they're back to ruling all and showing no signs of slowing down. Now, they have these draconian practices and are notorious for "nickel and diming" consumers.
Even scarier? They installed and maintain monitoring equipment for the CIA. They can and do monitor your calls and traffic. Sounds like nutty conspiracy stuff, right? Read about it. It's all part of "homeland security" and as an engineer, I've seen these installations first-hand.
The free-for-all anarchy days of the net are drawing to a close.
Mark. My. Words.
No longer sent from my BlackBerry.
HIPPA
Captain Zero said:
Even scarier? They installed and maintain monitoring equipment for the CIA. They can and do monitor your calls and traffic.
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I think it is technically Homeland Security, but that is just nitpicking. The issue of HIPPA seems like it might be a legitimate angle, both from the perspective of the medical professional and the patient. Bringing that to the attention of groups fighting CIQ and the Patriot Act would probably be better than posting them on what is essentially a hacker site.
It does not surprise me that the ATT support center had no idea of what you were talking about. Most people have no idea how their rights and their privacy have been taken away from them.
The problem here is that you are dealing with low-level employees (even the call center supervisor) who had no power to make the initial decision about CarrierIQ, nor have any power to change the decision as to individual customers. Also, the CSR's likely have not received any training on what to do when customers call them about CarrierIQ.
EveryOne Petition the obama administration to: Make Unlocking Cell Phones Legal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Petition the obama administration to: Make Unlocking Cell Phones Legal.
The Librarian of Congress decided in October 2012 that unlocking of cell phones would be removed from the exceptions to the DMCA.
As of January 26, consumers will no longer be able unlock their phones for use on a different network without carrier permission, even after their contract has expired.
Consumers will be forced to pay exorbitant roaming fees to make calls while traveling abroad. It reduces consumer choice, and decreases the resale value of devices that consumers have paid for in full.
The Librarian noted that carriers are offering more unlocked phones at present, but the great majority of phones sold are still locked.
We ask that the White House ask the Librarian of Congress to rescind this decision, and failing that, champion a bill that makes unlocking permanently legal.
Created: Jan 24, 2013
Issues: Civil Rights and Liberties, Consumer Protections, Technology and Telecommunications
Learn about Petition Thresholds
It's up to you to build support for petitions you care about and gather more signatures. A petition must get 150 signatures in order to be publicly searchable on WhiteHouse.gov.
Over time, we may need to adjust the petition signature thresholds, but we'll always let you know what the thresholds are.
Signatures needed by February 23, 2013 to reach goal of 100,00087,845
Total signatures on this petition12,155.
PLEASE GO SIGN IT MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...legal/1g9KhZG7
Thanks
I wouldn't ask that _uck up for a glass of water if I was dying of thirst. And why would you want to expand his fingers of incompetence to include your cell?
Umm, why post this? I don't see that it is a huge deal. All this states is that you can no longer buy a phone from (for example) Verizon and take it to MetroPC or some other carrier and unlock it to use with their service.
Most phones now are global ready, and if you buy a Nexus from Google it is unlocked for you to use as desired.
This is NOT saying that rooting or unlocking your bootloader is illegal. So again, I don't see why it is such a huge deal.
jonathon1289 said:
Umm, why post this? I don't see that it is a huge deal. All this states is that you can no longer buy a phone from (for example) Verizon and take it to MetroPC or some other carrier and unlock it to use with their service.
Most phones now are global ready, and if you buy a Nexus from Google it is unlocked for you to use as desired.
This is NOT saying that rooting or unlocking your bootloader is illegal. So again, I don't see why it is such a huge deal.
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Agreed. You'll do what you want to anyway...or atleast I will lol
Plus I think the president has bigger issues to tackle quite frankly
sent from my Note 2
Kinda thought the same thing. Not really a big deal. It's my impression that this is mainly to curb abuse by people who get the phone, unlock them and resell them. Giving authorities a way to prosecute those that fit that category ( that essentially fraud the subsidy that carriers provide)
Sent from my SCH-I605
Lol, you can always buy a phone from your new carrier...? It's not like they are banning cell phones.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda app-developers app
purged363506 said:
Kinda thought the same thing. Not really a big deal. It's my impression that this is mainly to curb abuse by people who get the phone, unlock them and resell them. Giving authorities a way to prosecute those that fit that category ( that essentially fraud the subsidy that carriers provide)
Sent from my SCH-I605
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That's a civil/contract matter between the carrier and the person that did that. The problem I have is that the dcma law is being turned on its head to help the carriers with this issue. I support the carriers in getting what is due to them but I object to them abusing the law.
TonikJDK said:
That's a civil/contract matter between the carrier and the person that did that. The problem I have is that the dcma law is being turned on its head to help the carriers with this issue. I support the carriers in getting what is due to them but I object to them abusing the law.
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If you have paid your ETF and/or finished your contract, why would it stop them from unlocking it?
They know they won't keep you by not doing it, and they certainly don't have use of the phone being locked in.
I think things are being blown out of proportion.
I think the real loud ones against this law are just upset that they can no longer default on a contract and sell the device unlocked on another carrier.
OP just wanted to start a political flame thread. Congrats. Mission will be accomplished.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
http://m.androidcentral.com/what-you-need-know-abut-cell-phone-unlocking
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
People that know that they will need an unlocked phone because they will be traveling will either already have one, or go into the store with the intention of buying an unlocked phone for that exact purpose.
I personally don't see the big issue about this new law. If you know you're going to be traveling abroad and need an unlocked phone, then there are several to choose from on most carriers. Plain and simple.
TonikJDK said:
That's a civil/contract matter between the carrier and the person that did that. The problem I have is that the dcma law is being turned on its head to help the carriers with this issue. I support the carriers in getting what is due to them but I object to them abusing the law.
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I don't think you realize how hard it is to get new laws enacted. That's why so many existing ones are modified.
You think they are going to go after John Smith that unlocks his phone cause he got a new job traveling? That would be a PR nightmare.
Now Johnny Mule that does it to every major carrier around then sells the phone after to support whoever told him to do it.....Sure.
What about the shops that deal in stolen phones but they are unlocked for other carriers? Contrary to popular opinion, those databases are rubbish and fragmented.
There are quite a few ways that this could help criminal prosecution where right now there is very little.
Sent from my SCH-I605
There's an article currently on Ars Technica which you all may be interested in.
Civil liberties advocates have asked the US Federal Trade Commission to take action against the nation's four major wireless carriers for selling millions of Android smartphones that never, or only rarely, receive updates to patch dangerous security vulnerabilities.
The request for investigation and complaint for injunctive relief was filed Tuesday by the American Civil Liberties Union against AT&T, Verizon Wireless, Sprint Nextel, and T-Mobile USA. The majority of phones that the carriers sell run Google's Android operating system and rarely receive software updates, the 16-page document stated. It went on to allege that the practice violates provisions of the Federal Trade Commission Act barring deceptive and unfair business practices, since the carriers don't disclose that the failure to provide updates in a timely manner puts customers at greater risk of hacking attacks. Among other things, the filing seeks an order allowing customers to terminate contracts that cover a phone that's no longer eligible to receive updates.
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I'll be following this case with a GREAT deal of interest. I urge anyone so inclined to send a few bucks to the ACLU - they seem to be in EFF territory here a bit, but that's fine with me.
def2moto said:
There's an article currently on Ars Technica which you all may be interested in.
I'll be following this case with a GREAT deal of interest. I urge anyone so inclined to send a few bucks to the ACLU - they seem to be in EFF territory here a bit, but that's fine with me.
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Sound interesting, but I don't think its going to have any impact. I read this somewhere:
The ACLU filing is a request that the FTC investigate the carriers along with factual and legal support for the argument that the four carriers aren’t complying with US law. The commission isn’t required to take any action in response. In the event FTC staff members launch an investigation, it could be months or even years for it to become public.
Blah, ACLU. Just another political action committee.
Hey I know this will come as a great shock to you all. For the time I spent with Sprint this afternoon I could've done some web work or something and made enough money to just pay their fees but its the *principle* ya know?
Anyway, when I contacted them several ways to get the early termination waved or get like the HTC One for switching new customer price because of the lack of upgrades, the first chat person said "Oh the Q update went out on the 14th" and then told me to call in.
I called in a few times, a Dominique hung up on me, but a Heidi was as sympathetic as the corporate manual allows. The price kept changing. They said I could do an early upgrade for $160 plus then the upgrade cost of a phone. Then they dropped that to $155. They said the early termination to $175.
Anyway, they also claimed that I should just go to the store to have them fix the security problems. I told them that wouldn't help, and they didn't believe me. They also told me that no one is complaining about any hacks.
So if you're bored, go ahead an try to inform a customer service rep about this complaint. I know this matters nothing, but I think that since we're in the right with it that it is a situation that we should participate fully in. Even if you no longer have a Photon the complaint is still valid for all phones not on 4.2, and for probably most phones against still when 4.3 comes out.
I know we also somewhat benefit from having the control of being able to hack the things, but that is subtly different than someone in the future finding browser vulnerabilities that stay open for years. It could eventually lead to them locking things down a la Apple, but that is a different fight. Hack it if you own it, don't hack it if you don't own it.
tomgaga said:
Sound interesting, but I don't think its going to have any impact. I read this somewhere:
The ACLU filing is a request that the FTC investigate the carriers along with factual and legal support for the argument that the four carriers aren’t complying with US law. The commission isn’t required to take any action in response. In the event FTC staff members launch an investigation, it could be months or even years for it to become public.
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This old thread is telling given the recent arrival of the Stagefright exploit. ACLU was on the money with this one two years and I can now imagine a potential massive class-action lawsuit against carriers for negligence with user data security. Forced arbitration agreements are likely to head off such an effort, but there are signs that the legal stakes for consumer data security are rising: http://www.wired.com/2015/07/new-hope-victims-data-breaches/
Instead of jockeying for lower prices or switching to no contracts, one of the major carriers should standout by creating a low-cost-no-added-commitment phone upgrade program since the cost of supporting older phones is too high for their bottom line. If they don't do it themselves, I can imagine a day when carriers are soon required to issue phone recalls when a substantial exploit is discovered.
In an attempt to get an official response from the parties involved with the locking of the phones, I am referencing 47 CFG 27.16 which has the following sections of interest, the former being more relevant than the latter.
(b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:
(1) Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or
(2) As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.
(e) Handset locking prohibited. No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee's standards pursuant to paragraph (b)of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers' networks.
(f) Burden of proof. Once a complainant sets forth a prima facie case that the C Block licensee has refused to attach a device or application in violation of the requirements adopted in this section, the licensee shall have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it has adopted reasonable network standards and reasonably applied those standards in the complainant's case. Where the licensee bases its network restrictions on industry-wide consensus standards, such restrictions would be presumed reasonable.
I dont know if I will get anywhere with this but I am working on an open letter to VZW/Samsung (with EFF/FTC/FCC copied) requesting their official legal stance on this issue which will hopefully force them to respond according to part (f). I dont hold too much hope for this in the beginning but I am hopeful that this will gain traction as it seems, to me at least, that locking down the devices and not allowing installation of custom operating systems is in direct conflict with part (b) in that it "shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice".
Let me know what your thoughts are on this. I may be totally off base but I hope that I am not.
smokeyrd said:
In an attempt to get an official response from the parties involved with the locking of the phones, I am referencing 47 CFG 27.16 which has the following sections of interest, the former being more relevant than the latter.
(b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:
(1) Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or
(2) As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.
(e) Handset locking prohibited. No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee's standards pursuant to paragraph (b)of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers' networks.
(f) Burden of proof. Once a complainant sets forth a prima facie case that the C Block licensee has refused to attach a device or application in violation of the requirements adopted in this section, the licensee shall have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it has adopted reasonable network standards and reasonably applied those standards in the complainant's case. Where the licensee bases its network restrictions on industry-wide consensus standards, such restrictions would be presumed reasonable.
I dont know if I will get anywhere with this but I am working on an open letter to VZW/Samsung (with EFF/FTC/FCC copied) requesting their official legal stance on this issue which will hopefully force them to respond according to part (f). I dont hold too much hope for this in the beginning but I am hopeful that this will gain traction as it seems, to me at least, that locking down the devices and not allowing installation of custom operating systems is in direct conflict with part (b) in that it "shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice".
Let me know what your thoughts are on this. I may be totally off base but I hope that I am not.
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Verizon doesn't lock the phones. You can install any operator's SIM and use it. That's what this law is about - it's nothing to do with bootloaders, it's to do with portability of the phone between carriers.
Sorry, you're wasting your time.
k1mu said:
Verizon doesn't lock the phones. You can install any operator's SIM and use it. That's what this law is about - it's nothing to do with bootloaders, it's to do with portability of the phone between carriers.
Sorry, you're wasting your time.
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Well that sucks. It seems like the law is referring to more than just the SIM cards because it references "devices and applications" but like I said before, I'm no lawyer. Part (e) is certainly intended to be about the SIM cards but part (b) seems to be a "general statement" In any case...waiting on the EFF response and we'll see where it goes from there. *shrug*
pected eekerman
smokeyrd said:
In an attempt to get an official response from the parties involved with the locking of the phones, I am referencing 47 CFG 27.16 which has the following sections of interest, the former being more relevant than the latter.
(b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:
(1) Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or
(2) As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.
(e) Handset locking prohibited. No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee's standards pursuant to paragraph (b)of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers' networks.
(f) Burden of proof. Once a complainant sets forth a prima facie case that the C Block licensee has refused to attach a device or application in violation of the requirements adopted in this section, the licensee shall have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it has adopted reasonable network standards and reasonably applied those standards in the complainant's case. Where the licensee bases its network restrictions on industry-wide consensus standards, such restrictions would be presumed reasonable.
I dont know if I will get anywhere with this but I am working on an open letter to VZW/Samsung (with EFF/FTC/FCC copied) requesting their official legal stance on this issue which will hopefully force them to respond according to part (f). I dont hold too much hope for this in the beginning but I am hopeful that this will gain traction as it seems, to me at least, that locking down the devices and not allowing installation of custom operating systems is in direct conflict with part (b) in that it "shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice".
Let me know what your thoughts are on this. I may be totally off base but I hope that I am not.
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AFAIK this only applies to those phones that make use of the C-block (700MHz band) of the radio spectrum. Only some new phones utilize that frequency range, and I think they also have to be bought off contract from the manufacturer directly. I think the Nexus 7 2013 edition tablet is made to use the C-block spectrum, but even then Big Red found some way to get past and violate the open access policy and disallow those tablets to be used when they clearly can and do work with Verizon.
Basically, what Im saying is Verizon will always find ways to lock everything up and be buttholes about it. Im sure the guy in that Tom's Hardware article (I cant post links yet) is fighting Verizon to get his new tablet working as it should, but like others who have tried, hes apt to fail. We just have to wait and see and count on hackery and our beloved developers to get the things we want.
No letter/petition is ever going to persuade samsung or Verizon to unlock the bootloader. They can do whatever they want and aren't going to listen to a small amount of users who wish to flash custom software. Period.
What is the purpose of a developer edition? Thank you.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using xda app-developers app
richii0207 said:
What is the purpose of a developer edition? Thank you.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using xda app-developers app
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Honestly, its just another way for Samsung to earn money. Normally, phones can be unlocked by going to the manufacturer website and using a special tool or some other sort of method. However, Verizon has completely removed that ability. So, Samsung, instead of helping devs by fighting to reverse that, they took it as a way to make extra cash by making a phone without Verizon's custom bootloader security that you buy out of contract from Samsung themselves. You get a completely unlocked phone, and Samsung gets pocket money. Not entirely fair, and it cheats people who need to buy the phone under subsidy, but such are companies like Verizon.
gnubian said:
No letter/petition is ever going to persuade samsung or Verizon to unlock the bootloader. They can do whatever they want and aren't going to listen to a small amount of users who wish to flash custom software. Period.
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In this case the goal isnt to politely ask that they stop doing it. The goal is to force them to conform to Federal laws governing their use of the spectrum. That being said, after some input from other members here that looks to be doubtful. I'll still give it a shot and see what turns up. It cant hurt to try.
No can't hurt to try.. Like someone else already stated though.. Neither Verizon or Samsung really care about folks like us who wish to have an unlocked bootloader to flash custom ROMs and such. Were such a small number to them. Sux I know.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Mistertac said:
No can't hurt to try.. Like someone else already stated though.. Neither Verizon or Samsung really care about folks like us who wish to have an unlocked bootloader to flash custom ROMs and such. Were such a small number to them. Sux I know.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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One piece of ammo you might want to use is the fact that Cyanogen and its partners are now making phones. CM is a custom ROM to start with and if the carriers don't want the phones on their network, a restraint of trade lawsuit could be in the works.
That said, the letter is still a long shot but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
ky5ever said:
Honestly, its just another way for Samsung to earn money. Normally, phones can be unlocked by going to the manufacturer website and using a special tool or some other sort of method. However, Verizon has completely removed that ability. So, Samsung, instead of helping devs by fighting to reverse that, they took it as a way to make extra cash by making a phone without Verizon's custom bootloader security that you buy out of contract from Samsung themselves. You get a completely unlocked phone, and Samsung gets pocket money. Not entirely fair, and it cheats people who need to buy the phone under subsidy, but such are companies like Verizon.
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Who NEEDS an S4?
If you chose to have someone pay the bulk of the price for you in exchange for you signing a contract dictating usage... Where is your complaint?
I am all for "sticking it to the man", I heavily support us hacking the phones to get what we want... But Its hard to complain the "guy" who paid the bulk of the cost of your phone had a say what is going on.
Contrary to popular belief the a Samsung Galaxy S4 (non dev) does NOT cost $250. Its closer to $700. The difference in cost represents the cost of the restrictions placed on you by re-upping your contract and having limitations/bloatware put on your phone.
scryan said:
Who NEEDS an S4?
If you chose to have someone pay the bulk of the price for you in exchange for you signing a contract dictating usage... Where is your complaint?
I am all for "sticking it to the man", I heavily support us hacking the phones to get what we want... But Its hard to complain the "guy" who paid the bulk of the cost of your phone had a say what is going on.
Contrary to popular belief the a Samsung Galaxy S4 (non dev) does NOT cost $250. Its closer to $700. The difference in cost represents the cost of the restrictions placed on you by re-upping your contract and having limitations/bloatware put on your phone.
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Contrary to popular belief the a Samsung Galaxy S4 (non dev) does NOT cost $250. Its closer to $700.
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That's what subsidy means....correct me if I am wrong?
Also, buying a retail (non-developer) S4 changes nothing. You still get bloatware, and you still get a locked bootloader, nothing changes.
Buying a phone out of contract just means you can go without data on your plan. It also means you do not have to keep paying for two years, obviously.
Buying a dev S4 is NOT done through Verizon. To get the ultra-super-special feature of an unlocked bootloader, you have to get it from somewhere else than Verizon. And that place is Samsung, directly.
Finally, I know nobody NEEDS an S4, I dont know why you had to attack me based on that assumption. I said anyone who needs the phone on SUBSIDY. Because, yeah, the only other option is $700, like you said.
ky5ever said:
That's what subsidy means....correct me if I am wrong?
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Yup, 100% wrong.
Look at your sales tax.
You bought a $700 phone and they refunded some money... Thats why you pay the sales tax on full price.
I mean, think of it this way... Find me a brand new S4 for $250 from a retailer. I have only $250 dollars. I will not sign any contracts or do any deals past the one event... Buying an S4. I have $300. Since you can buy S4's for $250, send me a brand new unopened S4 and you can pocket the profit...
But you cannot buy an S4 for $250 alone... So its pretty hard to call that the cost yes? Because no matter what it will cost you more then that to obtain one. You cannot straight trade $250 for an S4.
By definition subsidy is about the price you pay, but not cost.
See the following:
money that is paid usually by a government to keep the price of a product or service low or to help a business or organization to continue to function
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According to Merriam-Webster.
The price you pay with a subsity is less then the cost of the good. The cost of the good is what you pay + whatever whoever else pays.
It may chance the price, but the cost
the price of something : the amount of money that is needed to pay for or buy something
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Is still what is was before. Just now your not the one paying the bulk of it. Someone else is stepping in and taking up part of that burden.
But the cost the is taken up by Verizon is still recouped.
Firstly, and mostly, by the increase in monthly income due to more people resigning contracts.
Second, by the vendors who pay for their bloatware to be preloaded
Thirdly, by the increase in sales project to occur due to modifications made before sale, i.e. increasing security to make the product more viable for corporate and government use.
The cost is what it is, your price changes as you get someone else to foot the bill.
Hence the extra input from the guy who made up the difference in what you pay and the cost (Samsung is NOT selling the S4 to verizon at no profit, verizon buys phones to sell like any other retailer. Samsung doesn't care about Verizon contracts, only number of units sold to a retailer, on that basis Verizon CAN negotiate a better cost per unit, but that is really the same as any other retailer... Just their size gives them leverage. But Samsung has NOTHING to do with the subsidy. )
scryan said:
Yup, 100% wrong.
Look at your sales tax.
You bought a $700 phone and they refunded some money... Thats why you pay the sales tax on full price.
According to Merriam-Webster.
The price you pay with a subsity is less then the cost of the good. The cost of the good is what you pay + whatever whoever else pays.
It may chance the price, but the cost
Is still what is was before. Just now your not the one paying the bulk of it. Someone else is stepping in and taking up part of that burden.
But the cost the is taken up by Verizon is still recouped.
Firstly, and mostly, by the increase in monthly income due to more people resigning contracts.
Second, by the vendors who pay for their bloatware to be preloaded
Thirdly, by the increase in sales project to occur due to modifications made before sale, i.e. increasing security to make the product more viable for corporate and government use.
The cost is what it is, your price changes as you get someone else to foot the bill.
Hence the extra input from the guy who made up the difference in what you pay and the cost (Samsung is NOT selling the S4 to verizon at no profit, verizon buys phones to sell like any other retailer. Samsung doesn't care about Verizon contracts, only number of units sold to a retailer, on that basis Verizon CAN negotiate a better cost per unit, but that is really the same as any other retailer... Just their size gives them leverage. But Samsung has NOTHING to do with the subsidy. )
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First off, what you are saying doesnt make any sense. You said that "contrary to popular belief, the S4 does NOT cost $250, its closer to $700."
Uhm, thats exactly what I said in my first post. So, no, I am not 100% wrong. Not even the slightest bit wrong. I said subsidy. Thats why the phone isnt actually $250. Cause thats what subsidy means. The phone is sold at a reduced price because the rest is paid off by Verizon.
You also stated that the reason there is bloatware and a locked bootloader is because, since Verizon paid half the price (or so), they assume some control over the phone.
My argument to that is, if that is the case, then how come buying the S4 out of contract for full price still gets you a bloated and locked device? The subsidy has nothing to do with bloatware. Verizon is going to bloat and restrict anything they sell THEMSELVES, no matter how it is purchased.
THAT is why, to get a phone sans bloatware and lock, you must get it from another company, and only purchase a SIM card and insert it to the phone.
You also now state that vendors pay Verizon for their bloatware to be preloaded. Uhm, no. Vendors made the phone. They dont have to pay anyone to install their own software on their own device. Verizon actually pays the vendors a small fee to have bloatware installed. That is part of the reason iPhones never have and never will have carrier bloat. Apple refuses to sell the software just so it can be slowed down.
Another thing. Verizon did absolutely nothing towards increasing security for corporate users. Samsung did. Also, Samsung made the bootloader able to boot custom ROMs and kernels, you just lose the ability to make KNOX containers. But, really, what average user is going to do that? The reason most of the average S4 users do not want the KNOX warranty void flag set is because it reduces resell value.
Samsung sells the phones at about $580-$600. Thats some profit off the manufacturing cost, which Im not sure of. Verizon then sells it for $700 plus taxes and all. Thats some profit for them, too. However, that is too high for the average user to pay. So, they have part of the cost paid for, as long as you promise to give them money for two years.
Verizon recovers the lost money from charging ridiculously high prices for CAPPED and SPEED LIMITED data, as well as by forcing the use of some of their services, like making you pay for internet if you have a smartphone. They cost more, so they make you pay for something else, a little over a long time, to recoup what they lost.
They DONT get it back from people resigning contracts. New contracts have nothing to do with phones purchased previously. Once the contract is paid, the phone is paid for, in full. So, starting a new contract starts payments on an entirely new session.
ky5ever said:
First off, what you are saying doesnt make any sense. You said that "contrary to popular belief, the S4 does NOT cost $250, its closer to $700."
Uhm, thats exactly what I said in my first post. So, no, I am not 100% wrong. Not even the slightest bit wrong. I said subsidy. Thats why the phone isnt actually $250. Cause thats what subsidy means. The phone is sold at a reduced price because the rest is paid off by Verizon.
You also stated that the reason there is bloatware and a locked bootloader is because, since Verizon paid half the price (or so), they assume some control over the phone.
You also stated that the reason there is bloatware and a locked bootloader is because, since Verizon paid half the price (or so), they assume some control over the phone.
My argument to that is, if that is the case, then how come buying the S4 out of contract for full price still gets you a bloated and locked device? The subsidy has nothing to do with bloatware. Verizon is going to bloat and restrict anything they sell THEMSELVES, no matter how it is purchased.
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When you buy off contract you have the choice of
The phone still "costs" the market clearing price of an off contract S4... Sure that money is not anywhere, but its opportunity costs because they could have sold that unit subsidized for the market clearing price had they chosen.
The off contract verizon S4 still comes with all of that because that is what they decided to do with what they sell. Just like I can go buy a corvette and paint on a race strip and sell it at my dealership. If you want a discount from me on a corvette you need to run a bumpersticker with my logo, and I am forcing you to have a race strip. If you don't want a race strip... Buy from chevy.
ky5ever said:
You also now state that vendors pay Verizon for their bloatware to be preloaded. Uhm, no. Vendors made the phone. They dont have to pay anyone to install their own software on their own device. Verizon actually pays the vendors a small fee to have bloatware installed. That is part of the reason iPhones never have and never will have carrier bloat. Apple refuses to sell the software just so it can be slowed down.
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Vendors didnt make the phones. Vendors are:
a person or company offering something for sale, esp. a trader in the street.
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The people who make the bloatware profit off their apps or services. Guys who sell services (vendors) pay verizon to put their apps on phones so that the end consumer will hopefully like it and continue using the service.
ky5ever said:
Another thing. Verizon did absolutely nothing towards increasing security for corporate users. Samsung did. Also, Samsung made the bootloader able to boot custom ROMs and kernels, you just lose the ability to make KNOX containers. But, really, what average user is going to do that? The reason most of the average S4 users do not want the KNOX warranty void flag set is because it reduces resell value.
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Having Admin rights reduces security. Its just a fact. Its the reason user accounts exist in linux, and why you only become administrator briefly each time rights need to be granted in both android and linux. Your phone is more secure if you don't have to option to mistakenly load something insecure on it. This is simply a fact, you can read it from pretty much any book that discusses the subject. YOU may be super admin, but there is no test before admin rights are given... and if one of your employees is not the super admin he thinks he is, your security has been compromised.
ky5ever said:
Verizon recovers the lost money from charging ridiculously high prices for CAPPED and SPEED LIMITED data, as well as by forcing the use of some of their services, like making you pay for internet if you have a smartphone. They cost more, so they make you pay for something else, a little over a long time, to recoup what they lost.
They DONT get it back from people resigning contracts. New contracts have nothing to do with phones purchased previously. Once the contract is paid, the phone is paid for, in full. So, starting a new contract starts payments on an entirely new session.
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They make money in more ways then just monthly contract. Again, do you think they are not paid to load bloat? Do you really not acknowledged that a phone that cannot be modified is more secure from the viewpoint of a corporation issuing phones to random employies? This increases sales and profit.
The fact that its mean kind does not mean a damn thing. Its a deal YOU already agreed was fair, and VZ has your signature to prove it. If it wasn't fair, why didn't you sign up for the better option?
You were presented with, in writing, the fact that you would not be allowed to modify your phone if you asked VZ for help with the price. If you didn't read your contact, or didn't believe they would hold you to it... I don't know what to tell you.
And honestly that is what it comes down to more then ANYTHING.
MAN THE **** UP. You knew VZ locks phones from the get go. They don't hide it. Even if it was unlocked you agreed contractuatlly that you should not be able to modify the phone.
The real difference is that we haven't been able to beat them yet. Be upset about that, but you signed up for what you signed up for man... Very transparent.
15 33663429
scryan said:
When you buy off contract you have the choice of
The phone still "costs" the market clearing price of an off contract S4... Sure that money is not anywhere, but its opportunity costs because they could have sold that unit subsidized for the market clearing price had they chosen.
The off contract verizon S4 still comes with all of that because that is what they decided to do with what they sell. Just like I can go buy a corvette and paint on a race strip and sell it at my dealership. If you want a discount from me on a corvette you need to run a bumpersticker with my logo, and I am forcing you to have a race strip. If you don't want a race strip... Buy from chevy.
Vendors didnt make the phones. Vendors are:
The people who make the bloatware profit off their apps or services. Guys who sell services (vendors) pay verizon to put their apps on phones so that the end consumer will hopefully like it and continue using the service.
Having Admin rights reduces security. Its just a fact. Its the reason user accounts exist in linux, and why you only become administrator briefly each time rights need to be granted in both android and linux. Your phone is more secure if you don't have to option to mistakenly load something insecure on it. This is simply a fact, you can read it from pretty much any book that discusses the subject. YOU may be super admin, but there is no test before admin rights are given... and if one of your employees is not the super admin he thinks he is, your security has been compromised.
They make money in more ways then just monthly contract. Again, do you think they are not paid to load bloat? Do you really not acknowledged that a phone that cannot be modified is more secure from the viewpoint of a corporation issuing phones to random employies? This increases sales and profit.
The fact that its mean kind does not mean a damn thing. Its a deal YOU already agreed was fair, and VZ has your signature to prove it. If it wasn't fair, why didn't you sign up for the better option?
You were presented with, in writing, the fact that you would not be allowed to modify your phone if you asked VZ for help with the price. If you didn't read your contact, or didn't believe they would hold you to it... I don't know what to tell you.
And honestly that is what it comes down to more then ANYTHING.
MAN THE **** UP. You knew VZ locks phones from the get go. They don't hide it. Even if it was unlocked you agreed contractuatlly that you should not be able to modify the phone.
The real difference is that we haven't been able to beat them yet. Be upset about that, but you signed up for what you signed up for man... Very transparent.
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I was gonna just give the f**k up and leave you be, cause Im tired of arguing and I figured youd come to a consensus, and I was even agreeing with many of your points, up until I read the last paragraph.
scryan said:
The fact that its mean kind does not mean a damn thing. Its a deal YOU already agreed was fair, and VZ has your signature to prove it. If it wasn't fair, why didn't you sign up for the better option?
You were presented with, in writing, the fact that you would not be allowed to modify your phone if you asked VZ for help with the price. If you didn't read your contact, or didn't believe they would hold you to it... I don't know what to tell you.
And honestly that is what it comes down to more then ANYTHING.
MAN THE **** UP. You knew VZ locks phones from the get go. They don't hide it. Even if it was unlocked you agreed contractuatlly that you should not be able to modify the phone.
The real difference is that we haven't been able to beat them yet. Be upset about that, but you signed up for what you signed up for man... Very transparent.
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Click to collapse
First off. Verizon does not state that the software cannot be modified. They state that if you do modify the phone, you cannot ask for help fixing the phone or applying further modifications to it with support from Verizon. They will not help you. If they said you cannot root the phone, than a LOT of people would be facing court sessions.
Secondly. Man the f**k up? What made you think I was any bit upset with what Verizon does?
I sure as hell accept it. And I sure as hell cant do anything about it. Thats not the problem here. I was merely telling the other guy that HE is also going to have to "man the f**k up" and deal with it.
Third. VZW just recently started locking phones. And it was not publicized. They dont just up and go "HEY GUYS, WE LOCK PHONES NOW. KTHXBAI." Also, if it was unlocked, then why make an agreement that Im not going to unlock it? Thats right, there was no agreement.
We have beaten them, several times. Not yet for the S4, but we are oh so close. Im not upset about that, far from it, my friend. Im ecstatic. I only wish I could contribute somehow myself.
I signed up for a high end phone on the nations most reliable cellphone network. Any caveats therein are to be dealt with as met.
Fourth. Verizon locking the bootloader when one of the key features of the KNOX bootloader is staying secure while also letting you run proprietary customized ROMs and software IS NOT A SELLING POINT. I dont know WHAT made you think LACK of features was a selling point.
A phone that keeps ONLY THE DATA THEY WANT, to be encrypted, encrypted, while keeping everything else normal, is the best phone.
Most corporate companies are purchasing T-Mobile or AT&T phones, even, because they are more lenient with letting the business customize the phone to their individual needs. Not everyone wants what Verizon wants.
Im done with you. You can type me up another nice long reply and tell me again how wrong I am. I dont care. You believe what you want to believe, and Ill believe what I want to believe. This all started because you misinterpreted my words, anyway. So, please, lets drop this.
It's worth a shot and i applaud u for exercising your 1st amendment and looking out for consumer rights. I'll definitely sign that petition. In addition, I wonder if this also applies to carrier"blacklisting/blocking" equipment imei from being used due to unpaid accounts. I would think that it's common sense and good business to blacklist/block the account holder who has delinquent or unpaid equipment bills instead of blocking the phone from being activated on another account.
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