Galaxy S Wifi 4.2 announced!? - Samsung Galaxy Player 4.0, 5.0

http://www.samsungmobilepress.com/2012/02/27/GALAXY-S-WiFi-4.2
The only reason I can see for this is to avoid Apple's lawsuits by changing styling. Our galaxy players are apart of their latest lawsuit, btw. They did the same thing with the galaxy tab 10.1 2.
I see multiple signs of hardware cuts, but no signs of upgrades, other than possibly ICS. This is apparently Samsung's idea of a sequel.
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Specs we know so far:
512mb of ram
1ghz OMAP4 CPU
4.2" 480x800 lcd screen
124.1 x66.1 x 8.9 mm dimensions
1500mah battery
2.0 rear, 0.3 front facing camera
Ships with 2.3, "eventual" update to 4.0
Has a 6-axis gyroscope
Comes in 8gb or 16gb
"Gamer oriented" (comes with nfs; hot pursuit)
Releases in Mach (probably only Korea, other markets later?)
*Much of this info came from third party sites, and may not be accurate*

Meh the specs are about the same or even worse than the current Players. I do like the EA Games preloaded app if it's really what it is.
I'm not impressed by this, but didn't know about it either. So thanks for sharing :]

My thoughts exactly; very unimpressive!

Hmm I might get this instead of a 4.0.
I will thank as soon as I get 10 posts, lol!

http://mobile.pcmag.com/device2/art.../www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400827,00.asp
Well, according to this the proccesor is "a bit" more powerful than the 4.0's, it has a 6-axis gyroscope, and it will "eventually" get ICS. Now that last part is pretty tempting, IF Samsung ever gets around to it!
Now what on earth is downgrading the camera to 2mp all about?!

The picture looks like it's running touchwiz 4.0 though.

" eventually " , so probably upgradable using samsung kies. But that means the 4.0 and 5.0 will also have ics in the future?
But it will probably take ages...
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

Hmm, idk. Maybe, but the ics is about the only difference it would have, so giving it to the older generation would be kinda redundant. Hope they do, though
You're right about the touchwiz 4.0, could be a sure sign that ICS is coming, or could be nothing. An advertising pic they used for the old Galaxy S Wifi 50 (no, not 5.0) used a screenshot from an iPhone, so don't judge a Samsung device by it's picture, lol!

The real difference is the IPS panel!
4.2” WVGA(480×800) IPS TFT

IPS doesn't seem that important, since the viewing angle of the 4.0 is already great.

Seem more like the color change. Hardware are similar/abit better than the galaxy 4.0

iJimaniac said:
IPS doesn't seem that important, since the viewing angle of the 4.0 is already great.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IPS is not only viewing angle, but better contrast, better colors, cleaner glass screen (G70 is plastic).
Have you ever seen the difference between iphone (IPS) and ipod touch (glass but non IPS)?

They took all the fun out of it im going to stick with my 5.O
Sent From My SGP 5.O

Only reason I got the Galaxy S wi-fi 4.0 was for its built in Wolfson DAC and Steve's custom kernels which made voodoo sound possible so I am not really interested in the SGS 4.2 besides it more or less has the same spec and probably doesn't have the SGS 4.0's Wolfson DAC.

The specs do not indicate whether the newer device has GPS?.. for me, one of the compelling arguments for these devices is their use as a standalone car navigation system using offline maps/routing with apps such as co-pilot live.

Makes me glad I already have a 5.0.. The white is kinda cool though. Also interesting to see in the picture that it's branded as a "Galaxy S".
Seems meh though.

Q: Does Galaxy player 5.0 Intl. (YP-G70CW) come with gyroscope?

ICS "eventually" with Samsung means never... If you want ICS wait until this is released with it - if it ever is.

1776 said:
ICS "eventually" with Samsung means never... If you want ICS wait until this is released with it - if it ever is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not really an accurate statement. Samsung is currently working on ICS Ports for many of their devices. Hopefully JellyBean will be postponed until next years devices roll out so at least current candidates can get ICS.

So is there going to be a new upcoming model of the Galaxy Player 5.0?
Sent from my YP-G70 using XDA

Related

XPERIA ACE -Concept Design or Real?

XPERIA ACE
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16mp camera full hd 60fps
10x optical zoom
2.5GHz CPU dual core
Android 2.4
4.3inch Bravia touchscreen
NFC chipset
port HDMI
64GB of storage
Wifi
BT 3.0
Source
rabetionline said:
XPERIA ACE
16mp camera full hd 60fps
10x optical zoom
2.5GHz CPU dual core
Android 2.4
4.3inch Bravia touchscreen
NFC chipset
port HDMI
64GB of storage
Wifi
BT 3.0
Source
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It should be a fake.
Android 2.4?We will only have a unified version called Ice cream sandwich.
2.5GHZ dual core?which company has such CPU to provide?
64GB?Iphone?
cheers,
L
He could've at least made it appear to be more real...
It's such a blatant fake.
Despite the ridiculous specs and the fact tat its a concept, loving the design.
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App
WHEN IT WILL be launched?
Please post this as a fan concept and NOT as a new SE phone (which it isn't). It also has the name of the artist on the upper left hand corner.
As neat as all that is, the thing would have to be a brick.
10x optical zoom? the SD4500 is the thinnest cam I know of with that kind of zoom and it's 0.88" thick. and add to that a 2000 mAh battery?
We might as well just say that it's a hex core processor with an Nvidia fermi. Used by NASA to launch future satellites and 512 gigs of memory.
This is surely a concept phone. I don't think mobile technology has evolved to that extent yet.
Nice Concept, but bad Photoshopped !
Cam Flash on the Cam :S
and 10X optical Zoom ? LOL
Yes i think the OP needs to put concept in the title, its a bit misleading, but i think mayb in a year or 2 this sort of tech will be implementable, expecially the 2.5GHz dualcore processor, android OS version will be i have no idea lol a weird name mayb
So fake. Look at that massively fake lens! LoL
The design is very Sony Ericsson though, props to whoever designed it.
I think SE should start rolling out new Cybershot phones..
Or atleast a Satio android phone.. I REALLY want to see a phone that has manual settings..
if that phone exist i think the battery must be the ones terminator used.
If this gets released, I don't care about how fat it is. It is for SURE my NEXT phone ! Let's hope they will produce it.
+1 "PlayGunsta "
me too......will buy this phone if with same spec.....(dont care of Android version since XDA rocks...) also processor will be dual core so ...would be my next phone..........
yeah pretty sure is a fake one!
SE won't release something like this they obsessed with making their phones thinner!
maybe when samsung realeases a quad core sony will do a dual core! but not now
i am changing to samsung soon!
Even Qualcomm Dev phones aren't as fast that yet.
Sent from my CM6-TripNRaVeR using XDA App
Totally fake !
I'm shocked that you have to ask.
Xperia X10i via Tapatalk

HTC Aria Successor

Hello,
since the trend in smartphone development aims at huge screens and extreme processor speeds I was wondering if anybody heard about possible Aria successors, that would be handy phones with decent specs.
I would love to see a new Aria, with a dual-core processor, 1GB RAM, 16GB internal memory, a thinner bezel (like the Galaxy Nexus) but the same or just slightly bigger dimensions as the Aria.
Any rumors?
I fear that this is just wishful thinking, but one can still dream XD
Unfortunately, I've been hunting for this for about 6 months. No alpha products, previews, or reviews I could find...
Looks like you'll have to upgrade to something bulkier =(
Dang.
Well there is no rush for me to decide. I got rid of any kind of cellphone plans and buy my new phones when I can't stand the old ones anymore
With CM7 and some tweaking I can still love my Aria for a while.
The Samsung Galaxy Ace Plus would be ok if only it had more RAM and Android 4.0. Too bad...
Sony has some small phones that looks decent. But they still have the physical buttons
Like this
This is my new hobby, creating HTC Aria 2 fakes. If only I could print them out with a 3D printer...
Would you maybe like one with a front cam and two LEDs integrated into the classic speaker? Or a green one with trackball?
I loved my Aria. The weight was ideal but I had to have a bigger screen. It seems that the general trend nowadays it to get bigger and better. My example to this would be the Samsung Galaxy Note. The only carrier I know of that still has phones (new phones I might add) is SouthernLinc Wireless. Not to come off as advertisement but we just got a Motorola i867. 3.1" screen. Runs Eclair.
I really do wish that they would have an Aria 2. I agree with you. If they removed most of the bezel it would be a great phone. I still have mine even though I have since had a Captivate and now the Galaxy S II.
I am curious if some nice mid-range phones pop up at MWC next week.
Doubt there will be any successor to the Aria.
hawkeye2188 said:
Doubt there will be any successor to the Aria.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That may be true, but at least there's something close: http://pockethacks.com/the-htc-golf-a-fast-android-on-a-budget/.
The SE xperia ray looks decent, ableit maybe too small.
What about the upcoming Xperia Sola? It's about the same size with a dual-core processor.
http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_sola-4408.php
There's very little info on the Sola currently, but so far it's looking like my next phone.
Sony needs to trim off all that bezel.
Galaxy mini 2? Specs are still low but better than the aria for the moment
http://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_mini_2_s6500-3883.php
ThePettyTyrant said:
Sony needs to trim off all that bezel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
was thinking the same exact thing!
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The HTC One V still hasn't picked a carrier but it will have a 3.7" screen and single 1ghz processor.
Personally interested in the 4.3" dual core One S.
this htc one v is not bad at all! looks good enough to replace this little aria
The Sony Xperia Mini (pro) devices both have diminutive 3-inch screens and pack a single-core 1GHz processor. They are interesting enough and quite inexpensive on Amazon.
Cosmo123 said:
This is my new hobby, creating HTC Aria 2 fakes. If only I could print them out with a 3D printer...
Would you maybe like one with a front cam and two LEDs integrated into the classic speaker? Or a green one with trackball?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn! That looks sexy.. I want it! :-(
I really like the white one..
Engadget just posted an article about the HTC Golf.
Adam_J_T said:
Engadget just posted an article about the HTC Golf.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That looks pretty promising
I keep wondering...why can't there be a high-end phone with smaller dimensions. High-end does not necessarily mean it has to have a huge screen. Or at least mid-end haha. 1GHz is not too much to ask, and why not 1gb ram.

[Q] What more did you expect??

Hello guys. What were you actually expecting from Samsung Galaxy S3? Why I asked is because of reading few people's comment on it saying- "Samsung fail", "Not worth ed". Did you all expect Samsung to stuff in a super computer in a 8.6mm phone?
Now, you might say "that's MY opinion". I guess you are right.
But let's think something deep-
1) All you are asking for is 2GB RAM. Why? I could never cross 550MB in my S2.
2) 12MP? Well that might be even what I wanted. But Samsung fully concentrated on software tweeks.
3) The design is poor- I don't agree. What I agree is the build quality is cheap.
What do you guys say? I think S3 will be a hit
I was expecting )
1-ultra amoled hd 3d display
2- near 2gb ram because many games and apps is future will require more and more ram.
3-better shape design.
4-well camera has been improved even it is 8mp.
5-hd resolution ......
Others were fulfilled basically the software features are awesome but design and shape is pathetic and as for hardware nothing is new or special I believe it depends what people expected from then .....
Ok wait WORST PART#### Samsung galaxy s3 featuring exynos is bad As sense 2.1/30.3.5/4.0.+
Would never be ported As it will be impossible reason - exynos chip does not support sense we would need to remake the ui ....
I will stick to S2!!!
Sent from my GT-I9100 Powered by sense 4.0 pre-alpha by don2012!
There should be a forth question in the poll:
"Undecided, waiting to see it up close"
I'd want full hd display with 3d;2 giga of ram and a better gpu but I gonna to by s3 anyway!I really liked the design and these upgrade is good enough for me
I was explecting multiple versions of the device.
I would have liked to see one with a full QWERTY keyboard.
I would have like to seen one with no physical buttons.
I would have also liked to have seen one with pur ICS.
I watched the entire unpacked, and all I could think was, I can't wait for me to get my hands on one and flash CM9.
The S2 has never let me down performance wise so I expect much the same from S3.
However, my only disappointment is the look of the phone. It looks so S1. Major letdown.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
OP raises a good point. Question is whether our expectations were too high or too unrealistic??
Just image, if there were no high-end phones from Samsung after SGS2 (assuming Note and GNex didn't exist). If we look in this way, SGS3 is a decent upgrade from SGS2. We can't expect them to give a gigantic upgrade compared to Note/GNex when these phones are roughly 6 months old. Idea is that, compare SGS3 to SGS2 and see what you are getting extra. It's unfair comparing it to GNex.
1] Change in design -- for better or worse, that upto you to decide.
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2] Better SoC -- upgraded CPU and GPU.
3] Better resolution, even if you consider the PenTile. If we talk about sub-pixels, we are looking at 60% more sub-pixels compared to RGB matrix in SGS2.
4] Better camera quality even though the resolution is same. Check comparison between SGS3 vs SGS2 camera shots here
5] Bigger battery and more storage options.
I thought they would be able to produce a RGB matrix HD SAMOLED. Clearly, there is still some technical/engineering challenges. Hopefully they will do it in Note 2.
As for 2GB RAM, I would like someone to do a test and figure how many applications running simultaneously are required to fill 1GB.
Sadman Sakib said:
Hello guys. What were you actually expecting from Samsung Galaxy S3? Why I asked is because of reading few people's comment on it saying- "Samsung fail", "Not worth ed". Did you all expect Samsung to stuff in a super computer in a 8.6mm phone?
Now, you might say "that's MY opinion". I guess you are right.
But let's think something deep-
1) All you are asking for is 2GB RAM. Why? I could never cross 550MB in my S2.
2) 12MP? Well that might be even what I wanted. But Samsung fully concentrated on software tweeks.
3) The design is poor- I don't agree. What I agree is the build quality is cheap.
What do you guys say? I think S3 will be a hit
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've never crossed 550mb? You're not using your phone then.
I agree with the excessiveness of a 12mp camera though. Design is in the eye of the beholder by yes plastic is cheap even Though it has it's advantages. I just hope the phone doesn't get so hot like the sgs2
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda premium
don2012 said:
I was expecting )
1-ultra amoled hd 3d display
2- near 2gb ram because many games and apps is future will require more and more ram.
3-better shape design.
4-well camera has been improved even it is 8mp.
5-hd resolution ......
Others were fulfilled basically the software features are awesome but design and shape is pathetic and as for hardware nothing is new or special I believe it depends what people expected from then .....
Ok wait WORST PART#### Samsung galaxy s3 featuring exynos is bad As sense 2.1/30.3.5/4.0.+
Would never be ported As it will be impossible reason - exynos chip does not support sense we would need to remake the ui ....
I will stick to S2!!!
Sent from my GT-I9100 Powered by sense 4.0 pre-alpha by don2012!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your opinion. I really appreciate the link u provided about launchers...thanks
micoxda said:
There should be a forth question in the poll:
"Undecided, waiting to see it up close"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha....you got one buddy
rd_nest said:
OP raises a good point. Question is whether our expectations were too high or too unrealistic??
Just image, if there were no high-end phones from Samsung after SGS2 (assuming Note and GNex didn't exist). If we look in this way, SGS3 is a decent upgrade from SGS2. We can't expect them to give a gigantic upgrade compared to Note/GNex when these phones are roughly 6 months old. Idea is that, compare SGS3 to SGS2 and see what you are getting extra. It's unfair comparing it to GNex.
1] Change in design -- for better or worse, that upto you to decide.
2] Better SoC -- upgraded CPU and GPU.
3] Better resolution, even if you consider the PenTile. If we talk about sub-pixels, we are looking at 60% more sub-pixels compared to RGB matrix in SGS2.
4] Better camera quality even though the resolution is same. Check comparison between SGS3 vs SGS2 camera shots here
5] Bigger battery and more storage options.
I thought they would be able to produce a RGB matrix HD SAMOLED. Clearly, there is still some technical/engineering challenges. Hopefully they will do it in Note 2.
As for 2GB RAM, I would like someone to do a test and figure how many applications running simultaneously are required to fill 1GB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Best comment so far!!
Sent from my GT-I9100 Powered by sense 4.0 pre-alpha by don2012!
I wanted
different material, not plastic again
screen edge to edge
1080p
1st phone to feature a well done edge to edge screen will score some major points, that would have been amazing for this phone.
Samsung galaxy s gti9000=looks like everyone can use preferred as from.now (old beauty ) but.looks a bit .... And is outdated
Samsung galaxy.s2 gti9100= looks manly phone and nice and not outdate looks cool and hot just wish it had a bigger scrrenn
Samsung galaxy s3= wow looks freaking ...... Like cow **** ewww nooooo .. Good specs(nothing new in specs)... ..awsome software features which R going to be ported.to s2
If some one finds the s3 firmware please pm me i will start porting the software features!!!!
My greatest wish for the SGS-III have been granted; a notification led.
Thank you Samsung!

Samsung Galaxy S Blaze Q T699 ... The next great QWERTY slider phone?

EDIT: NEW NAME!
This device is now called the Galaxy S Relay 4G. See post #10
Just wanted to get a little discussion going for this device. It has potential to be the next(last?) great QWERTY slider phone. I couldn't find a forum for new phones, so my apologies if this is the wrong place.
Anyway, the talk right now is that this device is going to drop August 15th on T-Mobile USA. Rumored specs include:
~ 720p screen (more likely 800 x 480- see post #8 on this thread)
~ S3 or S4 dual core 1.5ghz processor
~ 1 GB RAM
~ 16 GB internal phone storage
~ Android 4.0
~ 5 megapixel camera
I'm praying the SOC really is S4, with that these stats could put it extremely high-end for a QWERTY slider phone.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: It's a 5-row keyboard.
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What do you guys think? Anyone out there who, like me, salivate over the possibility of a true high-end QWERTY slider device?
Here's a link to the latest news article on it:
http://www.tmonews.com/2012/08/samsung-galaxy-s-blaze-q-press-shot-hints-at-release-date/
I might be interested if it has a removable battery and SD slot. That is making me lean away from HTC when my contract is up in a year unless they change from the One series designs. I haven't had a slider in a while, I have to feel it in my hand and see if the slide action is tight or loose and try to gauge how it might feel a year or two later.
Id love this phone. Always wanted a Captivate Glide but this blows its Tegra 2 out of the water.
Only problem is, with QWERTY sliders going out of the market, there is less and less development and support from the manufacturers.
For normal consumers, this isn't a problem. It has ICS (Captivate Glide will get ICS) but really, probably not many ROMs, Samsung will stop updates fairly quick, etc.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
it´s new? looks very nice.:good:
It's supposed to have 5 megapixel camera
I'd be cool with 5 megapixels if the other rumored specs are right... Now that I think about it, will this be the first QWERTY phone with a 720p screen?
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
Thia phone would be cool especially if running bochs or ubuntu with the keyboard.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda app-developers app
Well, I did a little calculation based on the dimensions of the phone listed in the FCC documentation (125mm x 65mm) as compared to the screen-to-bezel ratio in the press shot. Based on my calculation, the screen size is 4 inches. This pretty much debunks the screen being 1280 x 720 unless Samsung introduces a new kind of screen- the smallest 720p screen in a previous Samsung phone is the Galaxy Nexus at 4.65 inches. And ALL previous Samsung phones that had either a 4 or 4.3 inch screen were 800 x 480. I don't see Samsung debuting a new kind of screen for this phone
Damn. That's a big blow for me. I was really hoping for a better screen. And I gotta say, if there's no 720p screen, I bet the processor is S3 as well. Sadly, even with these specs this phone will be the best QWERTY slider on T-Mobile, so I'll probably still get it. But damn, I really had my hopes up for higher specs there for a minute
I suppose it's possible I made a mistake or am wrong about whether there would be a 4-inch 720p screen(there's still a user agent screenshot out there showing the T699's screen is 1280 x 720), but I doubt it. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
It's the 15th and no word yet on this phone.
No word on why the original release date was missed, but the name of the device has now "changed" to Samsung Galaxy S Relay 4G. Kind of a lame name, but I'm still holding out hope for a decently-spec'd handset.
http://www.tmonews.com/2012/08/new-training-docs-correctly-identify-t-mobiles-newest-qwerty-device/
Also no word on a new release date yet, but it can't be more than a few weeks away ...
If this phone had the Wolfson DAC: I would've been interested. However I've yet to see a Snapdragon phone isn't a SoC so I'm not holding my breath there.
Thanks to some images found in the Q&A section of Samsung's website, we have confirmation that there's a FFC, the rear camera has a flash, and there's an LED notification light(not always a given with Samsung)!
... Okay, I know it's not much, but it's something, right? Damn it this phone needs some real confirmed specs already
http://www.tmonews.com/2012/08/a-full-360-degree-view-of-the-galaxy-s-relay-4g-emerges/

New 5.8in Galaxy Player revealed

I'm too amazed to talk... Sporting a 5.8in screen, 1GB RAM, 1GHz dual core processor. Here:
http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-galaxy-player-5-8-photo-and-specs-leak-20243322/
old news, many sources say it is wrong info, that in fact the screen is 4.8". Hopefully we will find out at IFA
I'll not trade my SGS wifi 5.0 for this one..although this one has awesome specs..
daredavel said:
I'll not trade my SGS wifi 5.0 for this one..although this one has awesome specs..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i share your sentiment i will not part with my SGS 5.0, but i will buy the new one once it's available
Man, I want a giant 5.8in screen... I guess we will have to wait for August 29th when they might announce it.
If it is 4.8in, it will be exactly like a Galaxy SIII with different internal specs (and screen resolution)! Anyways, I'm looking forward to it either way.
mrjaredbeta said:
Man, I want a giant 5.8in screen... I guess we will have to wait for August 29th when they might announce it.
If it is 4.8in, it will be exactly like a Galaxy SIII with different internal specs (and screen resolution)! Anyways, I'm looking forward to it either way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i kinda wouldn't mind it to, but on the other hand it would make it too big to be pocketable and too close to 7" tablets in size
Don't you guys think the screen is too big? Even though it looks hot
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Lol, walkman z already has 1gb of ram, about time players do, too.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda app-developers app
Walkman Zs have like absolutely no fan base though
Way to big for a PMP, too smalll for a tablet. I wonder what usage it fits in.
Its officially revealed now!
Sent using xda app-developers app
I dono... It does look quite large..
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Its got a nice 1GB of RAM but it runs at the same resolution as the wifi 5.0 so it'll look pretty bad considering the screens bigger.
Karim.younus said:
Its got a nice 1GB of RAM but it runs at the same resolution as the wifi 5.0 so it'll look pretty bad considering the screens bigger.
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its not same resolution ..its 960*540 and 5.0 has 800*480 which makes that they have totaly the same dpi.
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I believe the dpi for GP5 is 186ppi and GP5.8 is 189ppi
I'm surprised a 5.8" PMP is anticipated by so many. The 5.0 model was already borderlining on being too large in my opinion, and a supposed 4.8" would have still been a tough decision. It's disappointing that there isn't a smaller model to accompany it as with the 4.0 and 3.6, so I guess I'll be jumping for the 4.2.
I'm just going to be bragging to my friends that I have the biggest handheld device haha
Many issues with this new 5.8"
1. Resolution is abysmal for a 5.8", needs to be at least 720P
2. Price. This thing will be way more than 199.99 and will probably only get 1 update and then become EOL
3. CPU. Is it the Snapdragon S4, Dual Exynos, or Snapdragon S3?
4. The size will most likely push many away
1. Dude, the ppi is better than the 5.0 so it isn't "abysmal"
2. I agree
3. Who cares about the CPU if it has 1GB RAM (and it better have 1GB RAM)? I'm sure it will be at least a dual core, that's enough for my tasks at least
4. Get the smaller models
What matters more than the CPU or ram is the gpu. If it has the same powerVR chip in the previous gen players, forget it. And I am thinking Samsung really should have stuck with the 5" sweet spot they found with the note; this is really and truly just to much. One inch larger than the biggest handhelds, one inch smaller than the smallest tablets = What the heck is this supposed to be?
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