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Hello, Ive been searching and reading all day and can't find a way to flash the HTC Evo 3d to Boost Mobile. I just bought one a few hours ago and it will be here in a couple days. I would rather not buy a tutorial or pay someone to flash it for me. When I had sprint I rooted and flashed my HTC Hero without any problems but that was easier to find info for. Could any please point me in the right direction. Also can it be done without cloning the ESN... would like to keep it as legal as possible lol.
Thought I'd try to start a general Telus thread since there's stuff spread all over the place. Hope that's OK mods.
I bought my Telus Amaze on the second day out. Haven't tried to unlock the bootloader until now. Went through the HTCdev method and it failed. After submitting the hex code the dev site indicated it failed. No error code. Is there a solution?
I had trouble with the hexcode aswell, but I believe I just kept trying and it worked its self out, the htcdev website was being a dink half the time. I'm pretty sure there are other methods to unlock it
This is how I did it http://www.techzek.com/unlock-htc-amaze-4g%e2%80%99s-boot-loader/
Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G using xda premium
Unlock support for the Telus Amaze had been removed several weeks ago. There has been many request made to HTC for assistance. Last I seen on their Facebook page is that they are "working on it" ...no eta.
I've had the phone since day one and only decided to do the htcdev unlock after It had been removed.
Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G using XDA premium
Trevorhimself said:
Unlock support for the Telus Amaze had been removed several weeks ago. There has been many request made to HTC for assistance. Last I seen on their Facebook page is that they are "working on it" ...no eta.
I've had the phone since day one and only decided to do the htcdev unlock after It had been removed.
Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G using XDA premium
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Click to collapse
Yeah, tried to unlock several times now and no go. I don't understand why they would remove support for Telus when adding support for tmobile. It sucks. I can't help but wonder if Telus has something to do with it. Didn't HTC promise to unlock all future bootloaders? It makes no sense to allow it for one carrier but not another.
wow im glad i unlocked mine the first day i got it, this beastmod rom is awesome.
So, I called HTC Canada to ask about unlocking the bootloader. I explained that I had attempted to unlock and it had failed. She said, "It should work, hold the line a minute." She then came back on and said I don't see the Telus model listed under supported devices. I pointed out that prior to the tmobile being added the telus version could be unlocked, but now it can't. She had nothing to say. I asked if HTC is working on adding it. Her response was, "All I can do is refer you to the htcdev website." Basically, she knew nothing and was totally useless. She implied that all I can do is wait and hope. While I love the phone, I'm now regretting buying it due to lack of support from htc.
So unless things change, there's no way I'll ever have ICS on my phone since I know from experience that Telus never has any interest in updating their phones.
I decided to be persistent and have emailed htc regarding the bootloader. Here is the series of responses. My initial question was: Attempts to unlock the bootloader fail. When will the Telus Amaze be added? I thought HTC made a commitment to unlock all bootloaders.
Response 1. Thank you for taking the time to contact us here at HTC about the Bootloader for your HTC Amaze, Mark.
Here at HTC we encourage owners of our many devices to use their phones to their full potential. For many owners this involves unlocking the bootloader to experiment with different device ROMs. Although this is not something we would encourage everyone to do, we recognize that many cellphone users with a technical background may wish to do this with their device so that they can optimize the functionality of their device and customize it to suit their needs.
While we can't directly assist you with the process, because of the great demand from our customers we have provided you with the tools you will need to get the process started. Our developer site can be accessed at http://htcdev.com/devcenter. Once the bootloader for your device is available, it will be posted to this site.
This being said, HTC is committed to assisting customers in unlocking bootloaders for HTC devices. However, certain models may not be unlockable due to operator restrictions. If your device is listed as unsupported, we would suggest you follow up with your mobile operator to let them know your interest in unlocking the bootloader.
Thank you for your interest in HTC and our devices. As always, we are here to answer any technical questions or concerns you may have from 6am to 1am EST, 7 days a week for your convenience, or by phone at 1-866-449-8358.
Sincerely,
Tara
HTC
My Response: Thank you for your response to my question about unlocking the bootloader. I just want to be clear about your answer. Are you saying that the bootloader is currently not unlockable because TELUS has placed restrictions which prevent me from unlocking my phone? I was under the impression that I bought an HTC phone, not a TELUS phone. Are you saying that HTC is waiting for permission or information from TELUS before it will add the TELUS Amaze to the htcdev site and make it unlockable. If so, do you know if TELUS has indicated a willingness to do this and it is forthcoming? If not I will be returning my HTC phone for a Samsung which is fully rootable.
Thanks again for your assistance.
HTC Response 2: Thank you for your response, Mark. Please allow us to clarify.
When it comes to the bootloader for each device, all the information we have at this time is that once the bootloader for your device is available it will be posted to our developer site, which can be accessed at http://htcdev.com/devcenter.
Unfortunately we cannot provide a timeframe for the release of the HTC Amaze bootloader, Mark. We do apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause, and we thank you again for contacting HTC.
My response: Thanks again for your quick response.
Sorry to be so persistent but I just want to be sure I understand. Does a team at htcdev.com (or one associated with it) develop the bootloader, or does it come from the provider (Telus)? Would contacting Telus make any difference or are they just going to tell me that it is HTC who must make it available and that Telus has nothing to do with it.
Thanks for your patience.
HTC response: Thank you for your prompt reply Mark.
HTC, not your carrier, is committed to assisting customers in unlocking bootloaders for HTC devices. However, certain models may not be unlockable due to operator restrictions. Please refer to our list of supported devices to see if your device is eligible for unlocking the bootloader.
For more information on unlocking the bootloader please feel free to visit our developer page at www.htcdev.com. We apologize as we here at Technical Support cannot, and do not support the bootloader unlocking of any HTC device.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you Mark. Keep in mind that we are here to answer any technical questions or concerns you may have between 6am to 1am EDST, 7 days a week for your convenience, or by phone at 1-866-449-8358.
My last response: I'm sorry but you are not answering my question, but simply repeating an apparent canned response. Please explain what "operator restrictions" are. Aren't I the operator? By operator do you mean carrier? The Tmobile Amaze is unlockable but the Telus Amaze is not. Is that because Tmobile allows it but Telus doesn't?
All I really want is a straight answer as to why this is the case. How are the phones different given that prior to the Tmobile being added to the htcdev site one could unlock the Telus Amaze too. Since the Tmobile was added the Telus will not unlock.
Please provide a straight and clear answer. I am rapidly losing faith in HTC. Given the recent court case loss to Apple, HTC cannot afford to alienate customers. I want to remain loyal but I feel I am being given the run-around.
UPDATE: Htc's last reply: We apologize if you feel that we are not providing you with enough information regarding the unlocking of the bootloader. However; we here at Technical Support really do not have that much information regarding this issue. This is on the development side of things that we do not have access to or clearance for. We do not support or trouble shoot this area of development. This is really a hands off area for us.
With regards to your question regarding "operator restrictions". This is a restriction based on the carrier, not the end user. We apologize as we are unable to elaborate any further on this issue. Again, for more information on unlocking the bootloader please feel free to visit our developer page at www.htcdev.com.
So who know's where we stand on this. Maybe HTC's right hand is working on it but their left hand doesn't know. Or maybe Telus has no intention of allowing us to unlock our bootloader. I guess we wait. The GSII is looking better and better at this point.
I've gotten a call from HTC support and received the same canned answers as well as direction to get in touch with Telus' support system.
I basically told the lady that their support staff isn't going to be able to tell me any more than she could and that I would really appreciate it if she could pass my request on to her supervisor and from there on the development side of things so I could get a solid answer as to wether or not this is a software related issue, or a "Telus has told us not to unlock their phones" issue.
If its the latter I can call them and start up a storm of curses and complaints, but until I do get a solid answer, I'll have telus and htc sending me back and forth to each others support lines.
Response from Telus
Here is what I got from telus
I spoke with our Data and Network Assistance Team and they have advised that what you're inquiring about is all based on what HTC plans to do. In this instance, you may wish to contact HTC directly for any further information:
- 1-866-449-8356
- Web site: www.htc.com
- E-mail: [email protected]
Please note that once any software upgrade is available, it will be listed on our Web site, therefore, you can periodically click on this link and in the upper right hand corner you'll see notification about software updates:
http://www.telusmobility.com/en/ON/client_help/index.shtml
sbalko said:
Here is what I got from telus
I spoke with our Data and Network Assistance Team and they have advised that what you're inquiring about is all based on what HTC plans to do. In this instance, you may wish to contact HTC directly for any further information:
- 1-866-449-8356
- Web site: www.htc.com
- E-mail: [email protected]
Please note that once any software upgrade is available, it will be listed on our Web site, therefore, you can periodically click on this link and in the upper right hand corner you'll see notification about software updates:
http://www.telusmobility.com/en/ON/client_help/index.shtml
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Clearly somebody doesn't know what their talking about. Nothing will appear on Telus' website since it isn't software we are asking about. What a bunch of idiots.
This is typical. Htc says it's Telus' fault, Telus says it's htc's fault. In the meantime customers of both companies get ****ed.
Just saw this post and thought you all might be interested.
5hr3wd said:
Hey guys I just tried unlocking my mobilicity amaze 4g bootloader from htcdev.com and it just went through and I got the key with the email! :| I'm so excited YAY!
Telus and wind users you guys should try it out too. And let everyone know here.
Thanks!
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Binary100100 said:
Just saw this post and thought you all might be interested.
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I just got another msg back from HTC stating the usual "we're working on it" and recommended I speak with Telus to ensure they are away that the unlocked bootloader is an interest of their customers...
Gotta love the game of pass the buck!
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Just tried it and it failed as usual. Blank error msg. I see that the Wind and Mobilicity Amaze are both now listed but the Telus is not. This leads me to believe that is it Telus who is holding things up for us. Hope it comes soon.
marleyfan61 said:
Just tried it and it failed as usual. Blank error msg. I see that the Wind and Mobilicity Amaze are both now listed but the Telus is not. This leads me to believe that is it Telus who is holding things up for us. Hope it comes soon.
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It is up and running now. I just finished unlocking my Telus Amaze.
Turbosled said:
It is up and running now. I just finished unlocking my Telus Amaze.
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Hey, thanks for posting this. Although they still haven't listed the Telus Amaze on their supported devices list it actually worked for me too this time. Finally I am unlocked and can root and flash.
Im on Telus as well worked for me im unlocked and rooted
Holy ****.
UCD said:
Holy ****.
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Last post in this thread was 3 weeks ago. Thanks for dropping in with this enlightening and insightful post. Was there a point you wanted to make?
I'd also like to root my Telus Amaze. Has anyone figured out a work around of some sort? Reading the above posts, it seems like some of you managed to get it working via the HTCdev site. What steps did you guys take exactly in order to get it working?
Thanks in advance.
justin0025 said:
I'd also like to root my Telus Amaze. Has anyone figured out a work around of some sort? Reading the above posts, it seems like some of you managed to get it working via the HTCdev site. What steps did you guys take exactly in order to get it working?
Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go to the HTCdev site above, sign up for a free account if you don't have one, log in with it and go to "Unlock bootloader" follow the instructions on the screen and they will walk you through the rest.
Sent from my HTC Ruby using xda premium
Im wondering if there keeping a log of all users that are registered on the HTC dev. Due to the token and watermark. Because if they are they could tell sprint or asurion that you were rooted tho sprint would know due to the S relocked. Sprint really doesn't care tho most of the techs are on board with root.
Hopefully there is another method to root soon.
I know the C IQ thing was trackin stuff in the past and sprint shut it down wouldn't be something new if HTC snuck something in with the rooting since you have to set a account up on there site to root and the token and watermark and so on.
Anyone confirm yet that if you do drop your phone or it has hardware issues if your TEP still is good?
So what do you folks think?
reaper24 said:
Im wondering if there keeping a log of all users that are registered on the HTC dev. Due to the token and watermark. Because if they are they could tell sprint or asurion that you were rooted tho sprint would know due to the S relocked. Sprint really doesn't care tho most of the techs are on board with root.
Hopefully there is another method to root soon.
I know the C IQ thing was trackin stuff in the past and sprint shut it down wouldn't be something new if HTC snuck something in with the rooting since you have to set a account up on there site to root and the token and watermark and so on.
Anyone confirm yet that if you do drop your phone or it has hardware issues if your TEP still is good?
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reaper24 said:
So what do you folks think?
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HTC has setup their bootloader unlock method in a manner where they are able to track the device by serial number.
AlphaRevX, also required serial number for hboot 1.3/1.4 unlock.
Whether or not HTC actually uses the information, transfers the information to Sprint or Assurion, etc., I haven't seen any solid posts or indications one way or another.
HTC has set themselves up in a position where they do have sufficient knowledge to verify whether or not a device was or wasnt unlocked through their method, simply by serial number.
Hope that helps!
reaper24 said:
Im wondering if there keeping a log of all users that are registered on the HTC dev. Due to the token and watermark. Because if they are they could tell sprint or asurion that you were rooted tho sprint would know due to the S relocked. Sprint really doesn't care tho most of the techs are on board with root.
Hopefully there is another method to root soon.
I know the C IQ thing was trackin stuff in the past and sprint shut it down wouldn't be something new if HTC snuck something in with the rooting since you have to set a account up on there site to root and the token and watermark and so on.
Anyone confirm yet that if you do drop your phone or it has hardware issues if your TEP still is good?
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Click to collapse
I got my digitizer replaced the other day, and the techs at Sprint seem to care less if you're rooted or not. I doubt HTC would transfer the information to Sprint or bull**** Assurion. I know plenty of places around me that don't even check to see if you're rooted or not.
I actually asked a Sprint tech in the mall near me if unlocking my bootloader would void my warranty with Sprint. He told me that TEP still covers your phone but my warranty with HTC may be void.
Hope that helps!
joeykrim said:
HTC has setup their bootloader unlock method in a manner where they are able to track the device by serial number.
AlphaRevX, also required serial number for hboot 1.3/1.4 unlock.
Whether or not HTC actually uses the information, transfers the information to Sprint or Assurion, etc., I haven't seen any solid posts or indications one way or another.
HTC has set themselves up in a position where they do have sufficient knowledge to verify whether or not a device was or wasnt unlocked through their method, simply by serial number.
Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks man been tryin to find more info on there root method.
Okay, so here's the deal. I Bought this Photon in March, unlocked the bootloader, got CM7.2 running on it, set up the dock so it works with an external HD and runs shows and movies on my TV. Then, last month Sprint up and cancelled my phone with no warning. I'm on Verizon now with the Droid X2, which I noticed is startlingly similar to the Photon. I already know the Photon can be unlocked for international use, but how would I convince it that it's now a Verizon phone? I've got a couple really simple "You can't do it" with no explanation, but I've seen them for sale on ebay claiming to be usable on Verizon domestic, and in this thread - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1664212 - which I cannot post on, there are a couple posts towards the end saying that a couple people managed to get theirs up and running on Verizon, albeit with a few bugs.
Now, I'm not expecting miracles, but these two phones are so alike it's not even funny. I don't care about 4G, need 4G, or even *want* 4G access. If flashing my phone somehow irrepairably damages 4G, I really could care less. They're both CDMA/EVDO networks, so there's *got* to be a way to make this work. I know that's an oversimplification, but it's basically true.
As a side note, since the two phones are so similar, is there a way to use the sbf file (it's like, ten meg) that unlocked my Photon to unlock my X2? *edit* Tried it, didn't work. Oh well, worth a shot.
Caboose27 said:
Okay, so here's the deal. I Bought this Photon in March, unlocked the bootloader, got CM7.2 running on it, set up the dock so it works with an external HD and runs shows and movies on my TV. Then, last month Sprint up and cancelled my phone with no warning. I'm on Verizon now with the Droid X2, which I noticed is startlingly similar to the Photon. I already know the Photon can be unlocked for international use, but how would I convince it that it's now a Verizon phone? I've got a couple really simple "You can't do it" with no explanation, but I've seen them for sale on ebay claiming to be usable on Verizon domestic, and in this thread - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1664212 - which I cannot post on, there are a couple posts towards the end saying that a couple people managed to get theirs up and running on Verizon, albeit with a few bugs.
Now, I'm not expecting miracles, but these two phones are so alike it's not even funny. I don't care about 4G, need 4G, or even *want* 4G access. If flashing my phone somehow irrepairably damages 4G, I really could care less. They're both CDMA/EVDO networks, so there's *got* to be a way to make this work. I know that's an oversimplification, but it's basically true.
As a side note, since the two phones are so similar, is there a way to use the sbf file (it's like, ten meg) that unlocked my Photon to unlock my X2?
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You need to get Verizon to activate the ESN on their network. Which is not likely to happen. But if you can the rest is simple.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using XDA
na7q said:
You need to get Verizon to activate the ESN on their network. Which is not likely to happen. But if you can the rest is simple.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using XDA
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Okay, what is "the rest"? I don't honestly know what needs to happen for this to work, which is what I'm trying to find out.
I'm thinking of buying the phone, but I wanted first to make sure that it would be easy to root. The note 3 via AT&T evidently went unrootable due to a recent update, is there any chance that AT&T will do/has done the same thing with the M8? I see nothing about the AT&T version being similarly locked down, and from HTC's webpage it looks like they support unlocking the bootloader, but I was hoping for someone to be able to say "Yes, as of today, the fifth of june, the HTC one M8 purchased from AT&T will be rootable fairly easily" before I plunked down a bunch of money and signed another contract.
My second question is: has anything changed with tethering (on an unlimited plan)? I've been tethering for years with my galaxy S2 skyrocket no troubles. I again wanted positive confirmation that this was possible and safe to do on the M8 (IE without AT&T deciding data through the phone should cost more than data TO the phone or that I should be downgraded to a more expensive capped plan.)
interkin3tic said:
I'm thinking of buying the phone, but I wanted first to make sure that it would be easy to root. The note 3 via AT&T evidently went unrootable due to a recent update, is there any chance that AT&T will do/has done the same thing with the M8? I see nothing about the AT&T version being similarly locked down, and from HTC's webpage it looks like they support unlocking the bootloader, but I was hoping for someone to be able to say "Yes, as of today, the fifth of june, the HTC one M8 purchased from AT&T will be rootable fairly easily" before I plunked down a bunch of money and signed another contract.
My second question is: has anything changed with tethering (on an unlimited plan)? I've been tethering for years with my galaxy S2 skyrocket no troubles. I again wanted positive confirmation that this was possible and safe to do on the M8 (IE without AT&T deciding data through the phone should cost more than data TO the phone or that I should be downgraded to a more expensive capped plan.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything works - rooting, unlocking bootloader, s-off, tethering
interkin3tic said:
I'm thinking of buying the phone, but I wanted first to make sure that it would be easy to root. The note 3 via AT&T evidently went unrootable due to a recent update, is there any chance that AT&T will do/has done the same thing with the M8? I see nothing about the AT&T version being similarly locked down, and from HTC's webpage it looks like they support unlocking the bootloader, but I was hoping for someone to be able to say "Yes, as of today, the fifth of june, the HTC one M8 purchased from AT&T will be rootable fairly easily" before I plunked down a bunch of money and signed another contract.
My second question is: has anything changed with tethering (on an unlimited plan)? I've been tethering for years with my galaxy S2 skyrocket no troubles. I again wanted positive confirmation that this was possible and safe to do on the M8 (IE without AT&T deciding data through the phone should cost more than data TO the phone or that I should be downgraded to a more expensive capped plan.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Yes, as of today, June 5th, purchased from att, the latest firmware on the phone is rootable, s-off, etc. The recent update did not prevent the htcdev unlock method.
2. That's unanswerable from my standpoint. Tethering is enabled and does not require a separate plan if you use the tether mod on the forums, however, I would be wary of anyone who tells you that att can't see your specific data use. That being said, I've tethered on my plan since 2010 without issue and have not seen any indication that anything has changed with the M8.
johnnyutah22 said:
1. Yes, as of today, June 5th, purchased from att, the latest firmware on the phone is rootable, s-off, etc. The recent update did not prevent the htcdev unlock method.
2. That's unanswerable from my standpoint. Tethering is enabled and does not require a separate plan if you use the tether mod on the forums, however, I would be wary of anyone who tells you that att can't see your specific data use. That being said, I've tethered on my plan since 2010 without issue and have not seen any indication that anything has changed with the M8.
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I can verify that they are able to somehow detect when you are tethering - I got slapped on the wrist for doing this last year. I had one of those fancy unlimited data plans and so I decided to start tethering while I was waiting for the cable company to install internets at my new apartment and I got a nice call telling me to stop tethering or that they would 'add a tethering package' to my device. I switched to mobile share value plan and I'm saving money and I can tether without any BS anyways....not that it matters but I complained that its BS they can decide what you do with your data
Detection of tethering is done of the network side, and is not device specific. The phone (ROM) only limits whether you can tether or not; which is easily circumvented on a modded phone by either flashing the tether hack, or just about any non-AT&T stock rooted ROM, or custom ROM.
Its not known for certain how exactly AT&T determines you are tethering or not. Folks here who are smarter than me have commented that the data packets are tagged as tethered, and AT&T can easily detect this. How they actually enforce is another matter, they don't seem to bust everyone who tethers. It seems they go somewhat by amount of tethered data.
I've been tethering for years on a grandfathered unlimited data plan, like the OP. But only very small amounts. Usually just when I travel, and need to access email at locations when I can't connect to WiFi or a LAN. I'm talking may just a couple hundred MB of data a month (or less). Tether large amounts of data and you will almost surely be caught. Keep a low profile, and your changes are good you will stay under the radar. Many here will report similar experiences as myself.
As the OP has been tethering on their previous phone for years, I would expect tethering to go the same on the M8.
redpoint73 said:
Detection of tethering is done of the network side, and is not device specific. The phone (ROM) only limits whether you can tether or not; which is easily circumvented on a modded phone by either flashing the tether hack, or just about any non-AT&T stock rooted ROM, or custom ROM.
Its not known for certain how exactly AT&T determines you are tethering or not. Folks here who are smarter than me have commented that the data packets are tagged as tethered, and AT&T can easily detect this. How they actually enforce is another matter, they don't seem to bust everyone who tethers. It seems they go somewhat by amount of tethered data.
I've been tethering for years on a grandfathered unlimited data plan, like the OP. But only very small amounts. Usually just when I travel, and need to access email at locations when I can't connect to WiFi or a LAN. I'm talking may just a couple hundred MB of data a month (or less). Tether large amounts of data and you will almost surely be caught. Keep a low profile, and your changes are good you will stay under the radar. Many here will report similar experiences as myself.
As the OP has been tethering on their previous phone for years, I would expect tethering to go the same on the M8.
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I just upgraded to the HTC one from the note 3 and I was wondering if windroid is what you use to root the htc one m8 on att?
Sorry I'm pretty slow when it comes to this stuff.
jae2014 said:
I just upgraded to the HTC one from the note 3 and I was wondering if windroid is what you use to root the htc one m8 on att?
Sorry I'm pretty slow when it comes to this stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can use WIndroid or Hasoon2000's toolkit. But to be frank, the toolkits don't do anything you can't accomplish yourself "manually".
Now if the question is did I specifically use a toolkit to root, the answer would be NO.
Using a toolkit robs you of a valuable learning experience, and therefore I don't personally recommend it. Without learning how to use the various tools and processes, you are ill equipped to troubleshoot or self-recover if/when things go south when modding the phone.
A similar question folks like to ask is "what is the easiest/fastest way to root" when in fact they should be asking "what is the best way". My answer to the latter question would be to do the steps manually: unlock bootloader, install custom recovery, and either flash SU/SuperSU or flash a rooted ROM.
redpoint73 said:
You can use WIndroid or Hasoon2000's toolkit. But to be frank, the toolkits don't do anything you can't accomplish yourself "manually".
Now if the question is did I specifically use a toolkit to root, the answer would be NO.
Using a toolkit robs you of a valuable learning experience, and therefore I don't personally recommend it. Without learning how to use the various tools and processes, you are ill equipped to troubleshoot or self-recover if/when things go south when modding the phone.
A similar question folks like to ask is "what is the easiest/fastest way to root" when in fact they should be asking "what is the best way". My answer to the latter question would be to do the steps manually: unlock bootloader, install custom recovery, and either flash SU/SuperSU or flash a rooted ROM.
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Click to collapse
First, I want to thank you for your response. I wish I could give you more than one 'thanks' lol.\
Yeah, I downloaded one of the tool kits and was messing with it a bit and realized that what you're saying is completely true. The toolkits are nice but not a necessity. I will do as you suggested so that I can do this the best way.