I have an at&t s2 I777.....it is rooted one i guess (it was gifted)..
I want the ICS on it...and believe me i know nothing about how to get it....
i googled and found many people explaining the process for a windows PC version.
I have a mac and if some one would please care to explain (step-by-step is much appreciated)..i attach the present status of the I777...
Thanks....
Senior members will probably scream SEARCH at you 'til blue in the face, so I'll throw you a bone since I've been stalking for far too long.
This (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=878686) is a guide to Heimdall (basically Odin for Mac) find a kernal to flash (I started with Siyah http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=19650906&postcount=1) and follow the Heimdall guide to flash to your GS2. Next you can download any ICS Rom (I've been using ShoStock2 since version 1.1) to your phone and flash the zip using CWM (there are a plethora of guides on this should you need it, so search.)
Check out my thread, no need for a computer to flash the update
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722064
I would suggest you follow the guide linked in my signature. It has instructions for using heimdall with the mac.
Do *not* install Siyah 3.4 on your phone if you are running Gingerbread stock or modified firmware. You can not use an ICS kernel with a Gingerbread system.
If you have any questions or problems as you work through the guide, feel free to post your questions in that thread.
Edit: if you already have ClockworkMod Recovery on the phone, then you can just download the firmware distribution you want and flash it in recovery.
nakedninja42 said:
Check out my thread, no need for a computer to flash the update
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722064
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, didn't know that was out there, guess I got comfortable with Odin on PC flashing my G-Tab and never bothered to look :/. This would be a much easier process for you OP.
gvcabc said:
I have an at&t s2 I777.....it is rooted one i guess (it was gifted)..
I want the ICS on it...and believe me i know nothing about how to get it....
i googled and found many people explaining the process for a windows PC version.
I have a mac and if some one would please care to explain (step-by-step is much appreciated)..i attach the present status of the I777...
Thanks....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should never title a thread the way you did
Now that we have that over with, go read around this forum I know there are ways to root it on macs
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
rock_box said:
Hmm, didn't know that was out there, guess I got comfortable with Odin on PC flashing my G-Tab and never bothered to look :/. This would be a much easier process for you OP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love Mobile ODIN, I wish it supported the tab and I hope it is supports my soon to be sgs3.
creepyncrawly said:
I would suggest you follow the guide linked in my signature. It has instructions for using heimdall with the mac.
Do *not* install Siyah 3.4 on your phone if you are running Gingerbread stock or modified firmware. You can not use an ICS kernel with a Gingerbread system.
If you have any questions or problems as you work through the guide, feel free to post your questions in that thread.
Edit: if you already have ClockworkMod Recovery on the phone, then you can just download the firmware distribution you want and flash it in recovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks man.....
I was searching the forums and got hold of this topic...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1650948
can i use this firmware??
nakedninja42 said:
I love Mobile ODIN, I wish it supported the tab and I hope it is supports my soon to be sgs3.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could see why... alas, I have no reason to install it since I have already used the "middle-man" method.
gvcabc said:
Thanks man.....
I was searching the forums and got hold of this topic...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1650948
can i use this firmware??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, it is based on the last AT&T release. You will need CWM to install the ROM.
nakedninja42 said:
Yes, it is based on the last AT&T release. You will need CWM to install the ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks ninja....a small doubt....do i need to root again after installing ICS?
gvcabc said:
Thanks ninja....a small doubt....do i need to root again after installing ICS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you use mobile Odin, it gives you a choice to root while flashing.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
Honestly, I keep all of my fingers crossed for OP action.
Related
Hi I was just interested in which way is best to root my device and why.
I broke my last galaxy s2 doing it via odin as I was unable to unroot it.
This time I have done it the superoneclick way and unrooted via ginger unroot app.
Yes I'm a noob and someone if any one answer will have a pop about which thread I should've gone to, but looking around for the last hour has shown bugger all.
I could'nt for some reason unroot with odin and am baffled why.
Any help would be appreciated
Regards Shaun
Root using one of the many root kernels.
Unroot by flashing a stock ROM from this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1075278
Easiest way just flash CF Root via Odin. Job done simples.
Yes, I'm going to have a "quick pop". Initial search of Q&A forum turned up very similar questions, this is where you should have posted instead of creating a new one?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/search.php?searchid=8243020
Answers are above, including the link with guides.
Hi I did this the first time via odin, but was unable to unroot.
I used an insecure kernal and had the original kernal but when I flashed the original kernal back it was still rooted.
So this may be a silly question but why do I need to flash a rom as some people seem to suggest?
Sorry to sound thick ( I am I guess ) but so much info has really baffled me.
I thought you downloaded an insecure kernal and flashed via odin and that was it, rooted, then if you want to unroot you flash the original kernal, use usb jig and job was done.
Or am I way off lol
Again sorry if I am that bad
Regards Shaun
If you flash back stock firmware, busybox and superuser are removed, so you won't have root access. Also stock kernel as part of the package will instal stock recovery.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
So this may be a silly question but why do I need to flash a rom as some people seem to suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The actual rooting process changes (adds) things to the system, that's why you need to flash a "clean" one to unroot.
The unsecure kernels only provide the means to perform the root, they don't do the actual root.
Kernels like CF-Root or mine (see sig) do perform the actual root on boot, but as said above, it involves adding things to the original system.
First and foremost, thank you all for your info it is much appreciated and I mean that.
But I am totally lost and still have a screwed of G2 in the drawer.
I have followed advice to the T and some how I am no better off.
I mean what has firmware and roms got to do with rooting or unrooting.
I just want to get to grips with rooting before flashing firmware or at least someone to say what I did wrong.
On my new G2 I did it via superoneclick is that wrong?
Regards Shaun
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
I mean what has firmware and roms got to do with rooting or unrooting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has been answered two times in this thread!
Read it!
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
On my new G2 I did it via superoneclick is that wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I did my very first root using that one as well, perfectly fine.
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
and still have a screwed of G2 in the drawer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How screwed?
What does it still do and what doesn't it? Can it maybe still go to donwload mode (VOLDOWN+HOME+POWER when off)?
it keeps coming up with force closeandroid.com and has lost its signal for 3g.
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
I mean what has firmware and roms got to do with rooting or unrooting.
I just want to get to grips with rooting before flashing firmware or at least someone to say what I did wrong.
Thats usually in most cases not following the relevant instructions .
This method works but if you cannot understand it then leave your phone unrooted and start reading the Guides and FAQS .
Root + CWM .
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1103399
Basics are choose your kernel flash through Odin phone is now rooted .
Ignore the yellow triangle or just buy a USB recovery jig to remove it .
jje
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes still does download mode still makes calls, just could'nt unroot it and when I used gingerunroot app it unrooted it but the force close bit and bad signal started. Then I could'nt root it or bugger all
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
yes still does download mode still makes calls, just could'nt unroot it and when I used gingerunroot app it unrooted it but the force close bit and bad signal started. Then I could'nt root it or bugger all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just re-flash official firmware from Intratech's thread [ROM+Guide]Official i9100 Firmwares KG, KH, KI, KJ, KK1/2/5, KL1/2/3, LA2 Download (mentioned in an earlier post).
Follow his instructions exactly, and you shouldn't go wrong
After you've further researched and read, follow the above mentioned rooting methods to the letter. Done
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
yes still does download mode still makes calls, just could'nt unroot it and when I used gingerunroot app it unrooted it but the force close bit and bad signal started. Then I could'nt root it or bugger all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Flash a fresh/clean ROM like suggested in this thread, that should most definitaly fix that phone and get it back to fully working state.
So just before I do this flashing the firmware, just to make sure you understand!
I do the flashing the firmware as if I was flashing the kernal?
Also I'm on 2.3.4 will it stay as that or will I have to use another firmware for that?
Again sorry if I am getting this wrong and thank you for your patience
Get a USB jig.
Flash your stock rom of choice from the intratech thread.
Flash speedmod kernel or whichever you want to gain root.
PS. You shouldn't be flashing anything if you don't know what your doing.....
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
Iamaspecialneedscase said:
So just before I do this flashing the firmware, just to make sure you understand!
I do the flashing the firmware as if I was flashing the kernal?
Also I'm on 2.3.4 will it stay as that or will I have to use another firmware for that?
Again sorry if I am getting this wrong and thank you for your patience
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The intention is to get the phone in a working state, so you can just about flash any official firmware you like. Your Android version will also upgrade if you flash a newer package.
Good reports about XILA2. May have a few Italian apps on it, you may wish to keep them or uninstall later. You may have to flash a seperate CSC later, or just manually enter your APN.
Follow Intratech's instructions and go for it!
Good day,
i'm new to xda so excuse me. I recently was updating my sgh i777 on kies to firmware 4.0.4 but it failed and went to emergency firmware recovery mode.Now there is a message on the phone " Firmware upgrade encountered an issue. Please select recovery mode in kies & try again". Tried this still failed. Also did a stock at&t rom through odin but fails right before it finishes.
Can anyone help me please! Thanks alot..
I'm assuming you read a lot before posting and saw all the terrible things people are saying about this update causing freezes and sleeps of death?
Phalanx7621 said:
I'm assuming you read a lot before posting and saw all the terrible things people are saying about this update causing freezes and sleeps of death?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What's reading?
brandonarev said:
What's reading?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its Bill Cosby. Derp!
Phalanx7621 said:
I'm assuming you read a lot before posting and saw all the terrible things people are saying about this update causing freezes and sleeps of death?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
only after i read up on it...but needed to update because i was still on gingerbread and it wasnt working properly
dmentalcase29 said:
only after i read up on it...but needed to update because i was still on gingerbread and it wasnt working properly
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can flash a stock rooted system package of 2.3.6 or 4.0.3, either one would be better than the 4.0.4 which is known to cause lock ups and sleeps of death.
There is stock ics romantic. Which you can flash with odin.. Please read the developer posts and thread before flash anything. Stock ics has a phone bricking bug and you have to flash a custom kernel to get rid of it...
Pm me if you need any help with it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
bqudamith said:
There is stock ics romantic. Which you can flash with odin.. Please read the developer posts and thread before flash anything. Stock ics has a phone bricking bug and you have to flash a custom kernel to get rid of it...
Pm me if you need any help with it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To the OP, not sure if you could do an OTA from GB to 4.0.4. You definitely need KIES to update.
If your phone is not updated yet to ICS, you could follow the stickies to root and then install a custom rom, if thats what you are looking for.
Most Stable ROM
Installed 4.0.4 using KIES, then rooted the device. Having a few issues with my calendar sync/updates with Exchange server. Bluetooth also doesn't work anymore. What is the most stable ROM for the I777? I need my Bluetooth back. I'll keep poking around the forums to see what I can find.
Regards,
-Brian
theozbc said:
Installed 4.0.4 using KIES, then rooted the device. Having a few issues with my calendar sync/updates with Exchange server. Bluetooth also doesn't work anymore. What is the most stable ROM for the I777? I need my Bluetooth back. I'll keep poking around the forums to see what I can find.
Regards,
-Brian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of them are stable just read the op of the rom u want to see if u like it then flash it. Oh and make a nandroid backup first
brandonarev said:
Most of them are stable just read the op of the rom u want to see if u like it then flash it. Oh and make a nandroid backup first
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Helluva lot of reading over the past couple of days. Running SHOstock3-v1.7 and all is going well.
Thank you!
Need to get my mom's phone rooted.
I follwoed the instructions in one of the threads that didn't have a disclaimer that it was gingerbread only and tried to odin a gingerbread root kernel onto an ICS stock rom.
I have since mistakenly tried to odin a CWM recovery, and odin d_ag's overclock kernel. None of this worked, can someone help?
(I now get stuck at the samsung boot screen.)
Use odin to flash the correct rooted ICS kernel.
Would the kernel on this page work?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2239725
Liquidmetal6 said:
Would the kernel on this page work?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2239725
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no thats not an ics kernel if you can't follow the simple instructions of how to do this on the sticky thread and even worse can't find an ics kernel after help is given maybe you should leave your phone alone or theres a good chance we are going to see you open up a help I bricked thread. Just sayin
pockets916 said:
no thats not an ics kernel if you can't follow the simple instructions of how to do this on the sticky thread and even worse can't find an ics kernel after help is given maybe you should leave your phone alone or theres a good chance we are going to see you open up a help I bricked thread. Just sayin
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I DID follow the instructions found in the thread. However, there was no warning the method only worked gingerbread. I've been looking through the Android Development page for root4.0 kernel, and I don't see any as they are all either 4.1 or 4.2.
I appreciate the concern though.
If you could point me in the direction or a thread in which I can find a rooted ICS kernel, that would be great.
Points to this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=40081281
Anything you need
Sent from my Big Ass Outlaw Phone
Bubbajoe40356 said:
Points to this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=40081281
Anything you need
Sent from my Big Ass Outlaw Phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe I really am a huge idiot but...I can't find an ICS root Kernel in there. Every time I find a link the download is busted.
Update:
I managed to fix it.
I got a phone from a friend, and it seems sim locked to tre (sweden). now im trying to get it rooted to get rid of the sim lock. but im totally new to both smartphones and android. i've only jailbreaked ipod touch before.
i was following these two threads to get it unlocked
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1092451
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1877270
but i cant find the right one, which should be XWKF4, right?
android version
2.3.3
baseband version
i9100nekf2
kernel version
2.6.35.7-i9100xwkf4-cl280512
build number
gibgerbread.xwkf4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im a little bit afraid of trying a diffrent one because i dont know what can happend...
edit: i found one thread that may be working, but i dont know. "Ice Cream Sandwich XWLP7 (4.0.3): http://www.mediafire.com/download/wb...2.7-signed.zip" can that work? im not sure if LP7 work?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2365701
thanks!
Good work having a real go at it yourself, but honestly, make life easy for yourself & use the guide in the thread stickied near the top of Q&A. You'll have it done in minutes.
MistahBungle said:
Good work having a real go at it yourself, but honestly, make life easy for yourself & use the guide in the thread stickied near the top of Q&A. You'll have it done in minutes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's my problem, that thread dosnt tell me which one i need, or where to get it. i've looked at dozens of guides and cant find one that help me. the only thing that i seem to have a problem with is which one i should use, because i cant find the XWKF4 one.
Because you're running ancient GB firmware, update your firmware to ICS or JB first, then root. Instructions/links in that same thread.
MistahBungle said:
Because you're running ancient GB firmware, update your firmware to ICS or JB first, then root. Instructions/links in that same thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
okej, thanks.i followed this one (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2365701) and everything was fine until i was gonna root it, and when i was done with that (odin said succiful) it wasnt rooted. i downloaded the files in thread and followed every step. what could gone wrong?
Did you look at Doomlords easy rooting kit.I think that does it.Also search for Spocky's unlock app.
theunderling said:
Did you look at Doomlords easy rooting kit.I think that does it.Also search for Spocky's unlock app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that tool said that i dont have permission, which means its not rooted? why do i need a rooted device to root it? or im missing something? i did every step on that too...
edit: i had old version. but cant find new one (4.0.3) for SGS2, only xperia
I cant remember if Spockys tool needs to be used with rooted ICS or higher.
But if your planning on doing other things with your phone,youd be better starting off where Mistahbungle said(ICS).
Then you just root that and unlock.You read about using pc odin and get the ICS rom from sammobile.Then just flash a rooted siyah kernel,or something similar.
Hello,
I am currently using the Samsung Galaxy SIII GT-I9300. Bought this device last April. At that time I was completely new to rooting device. I didn't know what to do. I searched online about rooting device, read many post by users in various blogs and threads here in XDA. Then I was very curious to root my device. But even then, though i knew what rooting was and its merits and demerits, i had no idea how to root my device. So I started searching again for an easy and fast way to root my device. Then I came me across the framaroot thread here and thanks to the developer of Framaroot, I was able to root my android safely without any problems. It was a very useful app for beginners who had no idea about rooting.
After few months, I received a firmware update. I had no idea what changes it would bring about in my device. In a hope to find out the new features, I updated the firmware. But sadly, there wasn't any noticeable change. So once again I seeked the help of framaroot to root my device. I was left with an error message and didn't know what to do. Again by searching on Google, I came to know about the OTA update about which I had no idea prior to the firmware update. I realized that the OTA update was a curse to Android rooting and I was left with my boring stock rom without anything. Today again I searched all over the Internet for a very safe and easy method to root my device but couldn't find anything like the framaroot. So here I am kindly requesting, the deveopers to kindly update the already existing methodsor make a new easy method to root android devices so that people new to android can experiment and enjoy root features. Sorry for the long story, thought it might be useful by explaining everything in detail. Hope I have not violated any of the XDA rules. If I did, I apologise for that too but please don't remove this thread. It would be very nice if anyone can find a solution as there are many people in the same situation as I am right now.
Thanking XDA and all the developers for there services.
-superdroidboy
Try this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s3#root
Also: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1957273
amirTor said:
Try this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s3#root
Also: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1957273
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the post. Nevers seen this before. I will surely try it out. I have heard about odin before but was not confident to use it as I thought it may brick my device. Is there any root apps like Framaroot that can help make the process a lot faster and easier without the use of a computer.
superdroidboy said:
Thanks for the post. Nevers seen this before. I will surely try it out. I have heard about odin before but was not confident to use it as I thought it may brick my device. Is there any root apps like Framaroot that can help make the process a lot faster and easier without the use of a computer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1- Its the fastest and most reliable method I femilliar with- just follow the vid orders step by step (according to your device model), and no harm
should be made (unless you plug out your device in the middle of the process, or using a different model type- but even those can be resolved).
2- No apps that I know. Although i would not recommend it even if I found one- just seems too riksy than using the computer...
Basically all the OP questions are answered in the faqs and guides .
Root is constantly updated as and when possible but its not a simple question of just making a new one . Read the relevant root threads .
Stock recovery
amirTor said:
1- Its the fastest and most reliable method I femilliar with- just follow the vid orders step by step (according to your device model), and no harm
should be made (unless you plug out your device in the middle of the process, or using a different model type- but even those can be resolved).
2- No apps that I know. Although i would not recommend it even if I found one- just seems too riksy than using the computer...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, can I use the method given in this thread belo? Is it still working?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1842455
superdroidboy said:
Dude, can I use the method given in this thread belo? Is it still working?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1842455
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No!! That's the S2 thread follow guides in stickies or posted above..
tallman43 said:
No!! That's the S2 thread follow guides in stickies or posted above..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ow thanks bro
I am not rooted now and hence no cwm.
But can I install philz recovery using stock recovery in my non rooted device and then use the root zip to apply root?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2002953
superdroidboy said:
Ow thanks bro
I am not rooted now and hence no cwm.
But can I install philz recovery using stock recovery in my non rooted device and then use the root zip to apply root?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2002953
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not with stock recovery no!!..But you can flash philz recovery with odin ( I know you say you don't like using it but it is a well tried method) also look at this >> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1671969 <<
tallman43 said:
Not with stock recovery no!!..But you can flash philz recovery with odin ( I know you say you don't like using it but it is a well tried method) also look at this >> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1671969 <<
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hope I ain't annoying u.
But I saw a kid flashing philz directly using stock on a note 2- N7000 in YouTube.
So I had a doubt whether it's possible in S3 i9300 also.
Thanks a lot for the help. I have only rooted once or twice b4 so I have ver less knownledge about it, so please bare with me
Ow and I am going to flash CM 11 directly. So I hope I can proceed with philz according to the above thread.
superdroidboy said:
Hope I ain't annoying u.
But I saw a kid flashing philz directly using stock on a note 2- N7000 in YouTube.
So I had a doubt whether it's possible in S3 i9300 also.
Thanks a lot for the help. I have only rooted once or twice b4 so I have ver less knownledge about it, so please bare with me
Ow and I am going to flash CM 11 directly. So I hope I can proceed with philz according to the above thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it was only that easy on S3 would save a lot of trouble ..yep follow instructions in thread and use PhilZ .tar.md5 not the zip file and if you are flashing CM 11 you do not need to root the rom is already rooted.
tallman43 said:
If it was only that easy on S3 would save a lot of trouble ..yep follow instructions in thread and use PhilZ .tar.md5 not the zip file and if you are flashing CM 11 you do not need to root the rom is already rooted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okieee bro
But... again....what is the difference between flashing in odin and recovery? So for any future process I can avoid all these doubts.
Searched online. Couldn't find anything that tells the difference.
superdroidboy said:
Okieee bro
But... again....what is the difference between flashing in odin and recovery? So for any future process I can avoid all these doubts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Without giving you a long explanation you flash custom roms in recovery (.zip files) and stock roms (.tar) in odin and same for recoveries.
tallman43 said:
Without giving you a long explanation you flash custom roms in recovery (.zip files) and stock roms (.tar) in odin and same for recoveries.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ow ok ok...thats explains a bit
Thanks.
Something is tempting me to try it out. Lol. If it works, i will report it here and it will help other s3 users too. At the same time, something prevents me from doing it. I get a feeling of bricking my device. Then I will have to fix that too
Before I do something like that, can u predict if it may work since the same method worked for the N7000 or can u tell me if have you tried it before? (Please tell me if I am annoying u, it doesn't matter )
superdroidboy said:
Ow ok ok...thats explains a bit
Thanks.
Something is tempting me to try it out. Lol. If it works, i will report it here and it will help other s3 users too. At the same time, something prevents me from doing it. I get a feeling of bricking my device. Then I will have to fix that too
Before I do something like that, can u predict if it may work since the same method worked for the N7000 or can u tell me if have you tried it before? (Please tell me if I am annoying u, it doesn't matter )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean flashing through stock recovery no!! N7000 a different device Brick comes to mind I think you need to read the stickies a bit more if you are thinking of doing things like that!!