I tried searching xda and also read up on Lithium Ion packs at BatteryUnivesity and pursued a few threads on battery storage questions at Toms Hardware and the like. Haven't found anything definitive though - I'd love the opinions of smartphone folks...
I purchased my EVO LTE today at Best Buy and it was completely discharged coming out of the box. So much so that it had to be connected to a mains charger for 5 minutes before the led would even light up. I had them get me another unit, claiming (I think rightly) that being fully discharged was not good for the battery... they acquiesced, but the second phone was exactly the same.
So I let it go... one powered up it behaved normally - I'm charging it fully now. I have 30 days to return the thing though, and with the non-user-replaceable battery I'm considering it. At the very least it seems to indicate that the things were in storage a LONG time, either at Best Buy or back at HTC (li-ion self-discharge fairly slowly), or perhaps that they went through some inappropriately high temperature storage or something? Am I being a complete technological hypochondriac or is it reasonable to want them to produce a phone that wasn't completely discharged in storage?
Any thoughts appreciated...
AidanSonoda said:
I tried searching xda and also read up on Lithium Ion packs at BatteryUnivesity and pursued a few threads on battery storage questions at Toms Hardware and the like. Haven't found anything definitive though - I'd love the opinions of smartphone folks...
I purchased my EVO LTE today at Best Buy and it was completely discharged coming out of the box. So much so that it had to be connected to a mains charger for 5 minutes before the led would even light up. I had them get me another unit, claiming (I think rightly) that being fully discharged was not good for the battery... they acquiesced, but the second phone was exactly the same.
So I let it go... one powered up it behaved normally - I'm charging it fully now. I have 30 days to return the thing though, and with the non-user-replaceable battery I'm considering it. At the very least it seems to indicate that the things were in storage a LONG time, either at Best Buy or back at HTC (li-ion self-discharge fairly slowly), or perhaps that they went through some inappropriately high temperature storage or something? Am I being a complete technological hypochondriac or is it reasonable to want them to produce a phone that wasn't completely discharged in storage?
Any thoughts appreciated...
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As a BBYM employee, many of the evos come dead. non removable battery has this shipped and sucking on power even shut down. Mine, however, turned on right out the box. but if its dead, its not necessarily defective.
edit: 14 day return with sprint
I'm a EE student and have done many papers on all types of batteries. With regard to your concern, the same thing happened to me at BB. They always come with a surface charge, and my thoughts are that either they did not charge the batteries long enough, did not charge them at all, or they charged them, and the charge depleted through temperature, time, etc.
I would not worry one bit. Things to keep in-mind with Lithium ion batteries is to avoid depleting them. Always charge them before they shut down on u, and there is a point where u can burn out the safety circuit these batteries are mandatory to contain, and the battery will no-longer charge.
Lithium ion batteries lose somewhere around 3% charge a year, and more if stressed. No doubt the battery will serve u well the length of time u own the phone.
Thanks
Thanks for both of the helpful replies... put my mind at ease.
Related
Hello everyone,
Getting my G2 tomorrow ad was wondering what's best to do for the initial charge ?
What did you all do and how do you find your battery because of it ?
Cheers James
hi there mate
I did a 3-4 hour charge until the battery was fully charged...the orange led charge thing goes green and its fine then
right now im managing to get a day with heavy use, which is good
Thanks immya
Any other advice please ?
I atcually do the same. But i repeat the process of fully charge and discharge the phone completly about 2-3 times. So the battery gets well trained. I repeat ist about every 2 months. I know it should not be relevant with those new batteries, but i found out it is, and the battery last longer.
jut my 2 cents
Cheers,
Chaos42
it's 2009, just charge it and use it.
when i got mine the battery was ~1/3 full, i charged it till ~2/3, then had to leave and completed the initial charge like two hours later, all works fine, getting somewhat between 4 hours and 3 days of usage.
chaos42 said:
I atcually do the same. But i repeat the process of fully charge and discharge the phone completly about 2-3 times. So the battery gets well trained. I repeat ist about every 2 months. I know it should not be relevant with those new batteries, but i found out it is, and the battery last longer.
jut my 2 cents
Cheers,
Chaos42
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Hey chaos42
What do you mean should not be relevent with the new batteries ?
Is there some sort of new batteries with the newer phones ?
Thanks
James
no, what i meant was what immya just said. that with the modern Li-Ion batteries you should not worry to much about how and when to charge. I just wanted to add that even it is 2009 i observed a far better battery lifecycle and stamina when you try to take care of your batterie. and charge it as decribed. that's my experience. at least for the initial 2-3 charges.
cheers,
chaos42
not that i am trying to discredit you here (in fact i would be very interested in such numbers myself), but did you do any tests or comparable setups to check the difference? because if we are talking about "a feeling" that you have this is IMHO not really relevant data. i would like to see two identical phones in a (at least) similar environment, performing the same tasks the same amount of time a day, and with that getting different runtimes on the battery for a period of a few weeks. these two phones don't need to be heros necessarily, as long as they have the same type of battery and can produce comparable results, but as long as this doesn't happen i myself rely on the tone on li-ion batterys in general. which is (and i am not able to quote or prove this): they are robust in terms of regular charging, and worrying about wearing the batterys in or training them isn't worth the effort. again no discredit here, but as long as no comparison has taken place there is effectively no data to analyze... just too much variables.
jameslfc5 said:
Hey chaos42
What do you mean should not be relevent with the new batteries ?
Is there some sort of new batteries with the newer phones ?
Thanks
James
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NiCad batteries work best when fully discharged before re-charging otherwise you get what is called the memory effect. If you are in the habit of topping up before being fully discharged the better 'remembers' how much you let it drain before charging it and then get's the idea somehow that this is what its capacity is and goes flat at the point that it 'expects' to be recharged.
NiMH batteries are much less prone to memory effect. They are the ones that need the 16 hour first charge then subsequent charges are shorter.
Li-Ion - lithium to its friends - are not supposed to suffer any memory effect at all. You are supposed to be able to top up as and when you want without any detrimental effects.
None of the above batteries will last forever and will need replacing after 2 or 3 years of daily use.
TheBrit said:
NiCad batteries work best when fully discharged before re-charging otherwise you get what is called the memory effect. If you are in the habit of topping up before being fully discharged the better 'remembers' how much you let it drain before charging it and then get's the idea somehow that this is what its capacity is and goes flat at the point that it 'expects' to be recharged.
NiMH batteries are much less prone to memory effect. They are the ones that need the 16 hour first charge then subsequent charges are shorter.
Li-Ion - lithium to its friends - are not supposed to suffer any memory effect at all. You are supposed to be able to top up as and when you want without any detrimental effects.
None of the above batteries will last forever and will need replacing after 2 or 3 years of daily use.
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Absolutely spot on!
These days batteries do not require dishcharging fully before recharging. Even if the person in the phone shop says "ensure you charge it for 12-14 hours before you use it", this doesn't matter - once the battery is fully charged, it stops charging itself anyway - even if you leave it plugged into a charger!
Same as what's being said already.
To add, it's even better to keep your lithium battery topped. Fully discharging them is actually bad for a lithium battery. Full discharge and heat is what's bad for a lithium battery.
For a nice reference, check this: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/lithium-ion-battery.htm
(the life and death part is what might interest you)
On a more interesting note. A long long time ago I got a MDA Compact aka Qtek s100. And there was a lot of debate here on the forums about the initial charge. In the manual it was stated that you should charge it for like 12 hours or something the first time. Then people obviously also said that was bull, because it had a lithium battery.
But! As for WM2003 it didn't save it's whole registry etc on the ROM but in the RAM. Once the battery was dead, bang! hard reset right there.
So they included a little NiMH battery in the s100 that would keep the RAM 'alive'. And that was the reason it needed such a long first charge, for the NiMH cell.
And for some reason a lot of manufacturers take an 'old' manual text for the first charge of a battery. Although that doesn't happen that often anymore. Especially in the beginning a lot of instructions of how to use a lithium battery were just plain wrong. And they put NiMH or even NiCad instruction in there!
Edit, some instructions as found here (http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm). Talks about laptops, but it's the same nonetheless.
Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.
Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely.
Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level.
Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)
Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.
If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge.
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Why "deep battery cycling" or "conditioning," is bad for your battery
In summary, "conditioning" your battery is only good for calibrating the tools which predict how long your battery will last.
I.e. people seem to be recommending that new phones should be completely discharged a few times and then fully recharged. In some cases, people are recommending that the phones be left discharged for long periods of time before recharging. THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND WILL NOT HELP BATTERY LIFE.
Again, you can do this to calibrate the battery monitor, but this will not help the battery itself.
Here's a quote from wikipedia *since I am a new user I can't directly link but go to en(DOT)wikipedia(DOT)org/wiki/Li-ion_battery
Like many rechargeable batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a long time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40%–60%
Lithium-ion batteries should not be frequently discharged fully and recharged ("deep-cycled"), but this may be necessary after about every 30th recharge to recalibrate any electronic charge monitor (e.g. a battery meter). This allows the monitoring electronics to more accurately estimate battery charge.[27] This has nothing to do with the memory effect.
Li-ion batteries should never be depleted to below their minimum voltage, 2.4 V to 3.0 V per cell.
Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. The high temperatures found in cars cause lithium-ion batteries to degrade rapidly.
Li-ion batteries should not be frozen [50] (most lithium-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately −40 °C; however, this is much colder than the lowest temperature reached by household freezers).
Li-ion batteries should be bought only when needed, because the aging process begins as soon as the battery is manufactured.[27]
When using a notebook computer running from fixed line power over extended periods, consider removing the battery[51] and storing it in a cool place so that it is not affected by the heat produced by the computer.
Hope this helps someone.
Thank you DarkDvr, wikipedia credits to him
Also, feel free to read up at batteryuniversity(DOT)com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
*again, this is my first post so it wont let me link directly.
Good read. Al though, this is XDA after all and you will be flamed for using wikipedia as as a source. Just giving you heads up.
Lejjvi said:
Good read. Al though, this is XDA after all and you will be flamed for using wikipedia as as a source. Just giving you heads up.
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"battery conditioning" is only bad if you do it all the time and drain it completely dead often...
Lithium ion batteries don't really need this...
And should only be done if you think you have faulty battery stats due to flahing new software or roms....
We all know this and the people that don't now know.. thanks op for informing the uninformed!
sent from a 3devo
You need to condition it for the phones software as well... Otherwise it will shut off before the battery is actually dead. But yes, you shouldn't do it all the time.
People confuse why I needs to be done is all.
Yeah, should change the title. It's misleading.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.
there is a diffrence between a deep cycle and a normal cycle.they are only resistant to developing a memory.
Yes, I know this xda, but this after reading some of the multiple battery life threads it seemed like there was some misinformation floating around. I mean, I know batteries are the cheapest part of the phone and easy to replace, but still. No point in going through all the trouble of multiple deep cycles when it actually does harm to the battery.
Also, I wonder what the people with 2 batteries do, and how this affects the battery meter. Or, if you switch to a higher capacity battery. At what point does the unit recalibrate itself?
[Q] How to charge battery properly on first time usage & is a converter adapter okay?
Hey guys. I have two questions for ya.
There seems to be various opinions on how to properly charge the battery when you first get the S2.
I seem to here two ways:
1) Charge the battery fully (maybe a good 8 hours? Anyone have a good value?) BEFORE first usage. Then you can go ahead and use it. <--- I was taught this way back the early millenium with all the new fancy cell phones.
OR
2) I assume there is probably going to be somewhere between 50-80% of battery life before you even put the battery into the phone. Thus, one should use up the battery until it drains completely. Then recharge it back up to full again. And vice versa.
Which is the correct method of choice as far as preserving battery life? Does it even matter?
My second question deals with whether an adapter for the battery charger would be okay. Like many of those who live in the states, we have to import the S2. I bought mine from Expansys-USA, which gave me a UK/European model adapter and then a generic converter (for converting UK/Europe to US/North America). Anyone know if this is okay for the phone or battery? It seems like there would be an "extra barrier" to prevent the phone from charging 100% accurately or properly. I do not know too much about electrical engineering, but it just feels like the Europe-to-NA adapter is acting as a sandwich between the phone and the outlet.
Should I go as far as buying an adapter from Canada (if they have one available) to ensure maximum charging compatibility?
I have always charged my new phones for 24 hours (roughly) then used it until it went down to 10~15%, then finally do a four+ hours charge (doubling the time it took to reach full charge). After that I charged/discharged as needed. Phone batteries have moved on since my first phone, but I still use this method.
It is not really proof but a colleague bought the same phone as me at the same time a few years ago. I did my usual routine, they never bothered (even though I told them). After about a year their phone wasn't holding the charge as well as mine (for roughly the same amount of usage).
The adaptor is rated from 100 through to 240V and 50/60Hz. So basically it works (nearly) anywhere you have mains electricity. There is no effect on charging. My old HTC HD2 charged fine when I was on holiday in the USA. So no worries.
Given most (all?) phones actually cease charging the battery completely once it reaches full charge, I don't get why they recommend you "charge" it for some inordinate amount of time the first time.
Hence, there seems to be 2 schools of thoughts here. One for charging and one against charging upon initial usage. Hmm...
On another note, according to this 2000mAh battery pack located on eBay: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...at%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1
"Initially new batteries must be charged for 14 - 16 hours continuously. All batteries require a "break-in" period, so don't be panic if your battery doesn't hold a full charge right away. For the first 3 - 5 cycles, please make sure to charge the battery fully and drain it fully before recharging. This will properly condition the battery and will ensure that it will operate at its maximum capacity."
Not sure what your guys thoughts are, but this sounds like a plan to follow for the paranoid users like me, eh?
I notice that there's a warning message when the phone is fully charged, advising you to disconnect the charger. I usually leave my phone charging every night, meaning that it's still connected to the charger for hours after it's fully charged. I'm pretty sure that the S2 has "smart" charging, but would the overnight charging damage the battery by exposing it to unnecessary heat for this extended period?
No it shouldn't. Like you said the phone has the ability to shut off the charge when the battery reaches 100%.
I've been charging mine all night for most nights out of the past 3-4 months and it's fine.
That warning is essentially Samsung's attempt to give you a green consciousness, since leaving the charger connected to the wall draws a trickle of current. Sammy figures that millions of people following those instructions to the letter will help save the planet.
It will reduce your batteries life, leaving it on the charger. Will it does stop charging it then drains to 99% then tops it up, which over time uses up the recharge cycles and will reduce the time until it can't hold a charge.
Lithium ion battery doesn't have recharge cycle.
jzmtl said:
Lithium ion battery doesn't have recharge cycle.
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Exactly. This was true until Litium Ion batteries came the norm in handsets.
Nowadays its just to be seen as being 'green'
That is strange since this site devoted to teaching about batteries makes it seem like they do. But also reading it says that being at a constant full charge is more damaging then cycling the battery.
That is in the second paragraph under the "Depth of discharge" chart on this site
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
With the frequency cellphone batteries are charge/discharged, they crap out after two years anyway, and unlike some other fruity product it takes us 10 seconds to plop in a new one, so don't worry about it.
Even if it damaged your battery the effect wouldn't come noticeable before a long time I think. And in case the battery does get damaged, you can always replace it, that's one of the nice things about this phone, if you compare it for example to an iphone.
tomascunill said:
...And in case the battery does get damaged, you can always replace it, that's one of the nice things about this phone, if you compare it for example to an iphone.
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exactly why i didn't buy an iphone
The only things really damaging your battery are:
- excessive heat
- heavy use while charging
- turning on the phone over and over after it turned itself off on it's own due to low battery
there are more, for sure, but just to name a few.
I always charge my phones over night and my HD2's battery is as good as ever after 2 years. My SGS2's battery is still the same, and I still thing that when the battery is full there are no discharge/recharge cycles but something like a suspend mode in the charger.
To get the best battery life, when should I charge my phone? When the phone almost runs out of juice, or whenever I can (below 80%) ? Please help!
Deep discharges are bad, but so is spending lots of time at maximum charge.
I'd consider charging around when you hit 80% if it's convenient, but if you're expecting to be on battery for a while soon, top off whenever you want.
Discharging to 5-15% is bad for your battery longterm.
So to get the best battery, I should charge when it is $80 right?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using XDA App
kvl19 said:
So to get the best battery, I should charge when it is $80 right?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using XDA App
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There's no hard fast rule about 'exactly' when you should recharge it. Simply try and keep the phone from running < 20% a lot and never keep it always charged at 100%. If you get in the habit of charging in the 30-80% range, that would be best.
Basically throw out the old mentality of always using it as much as possible before recharging as lithium batteries simply don't work like the old nicad batteries from years past.
This phone uses a Li-Ion battery, and these batteries do NOT have any kind of "memory." Charge it whenever you want to. However, it's not really good to always keep it "topped off." (Deep discharges are also not good.)
If you are going to store the battery, drop it to 75%-50% charged first.
There are some things to consider, however:
If the phone's power circuit bypasses the battery when the battery is fully charge (instead of constantly pulling power from the battery while the battery is recharging), then leaving the phone plugged in is better than constant charge/discharge cycles. Based on the fact that this phone will work properly with NO battery attached when plugged in, this is probably a true statement (but I can't know for sure.)
Second, the phone itself might like to see the battery charged/discharged once in a while to calibrate the battery monitoring circuitry. (You never calibrate a li-ion battery - only the circuitry that monitors the battery.)
Here's a link with some interesting information:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Take care
Gary
Got it. Thanks for all your information
A small note to add why you shouldn't 'keep' it above 80% (constant top offs and being left on the charger). In general when above 80% it's been found that lithium ion batteries have a 'higher state of activity'.
What that does to the battery is what it sounds like. Higher state of activity means higher wear and overall shorter lifespan.
That wear is easily seen in laptops. Many people have the habit of leaving them always plugged in while using and through the night, so they're always 'ready to go'. People who consistently do this to their laptops usually find after 1 year the battery life is noticeably shorter, 1 1/2 years 50% or so of 'new' capacity, and after 2 years looking at replacing the battery.
And I usually find a cheap deal on eBay for them, plus $50-75 for me. At least phone batteries are a bit cheaper.
Sent from my páhhōniē