Related
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
As far as I can tell, without any objective numbers comparing root performance, a lot of this rooting fad raves could just be subjective reported elation about being able to be different.
Granted, originally, the Gtab OS had some flaws. That's old news, get over it. How do the current roots compare with OTA version 3588? I'm somewhat shocked not one of the pack of geeks that have rooted their G tab hasn't backed up their raves with real numbers...
Granted, being rooted to the latest vegan might get access to the full Android market, and perhaps even future updates in Android... However, if I'm finding most of what I want at Amazon Android, is rooting worth the trouble until the roots and android versions stabilize? Show us the NUMBERS...!
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Also, do any of these roots do OTA auto updates or do root updates require a download & re-root? Just asking...
Jesus christ if you can't do a simple search for benchmark tests then I highly suggest getting the ipad2. I hear that the ipad 2 reads your mind so out don't have to do any search. We've only had a kazillion threads on this.
Edit
This is not to mention all the YouTube vids on this people have posted.
Edit again.
Actually, here are a few.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1047098&highlight=benchmark+2011
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12984546&postcount=9
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
Edit again.
I'm serious, I highly suggest the ipad 2 to everyone I talk to. Speaking as someone who repairs computers as a side job, I'm fully aware that most people want to be spoon fed everything, which is why the ipad 2 is the ideal device for most people. If people want to complain about nothing, let apple deal with them.
Thanks for the links.
However, as best as I can tell, they seem to verify that the OTA updated Gtablet is about the same speed as Vegan in the benchmarks when the CPU speeds are similar.
However, do the benchmarks used translate into much of relevance to speed of actually using the tablet to open programs, boot the tablet, download & open web pages. Stuff that people actually do with the tablet... Unless that's what the benchmarks are testing... But that info isn't provided in the links. Again -- weak...
The numbers and detail provided in these links deserve barely more than a C grade, if that... And what they provide seems to be at equal speeds, the current OTA updated gtab OS works fine... As long as you don't need the full Adroid market...
You Tube links? As best as I can tell, not one of them is an objective comparison with the OTA 3588 update gtab. They are just videos of vegan working... As far as real world numbers and comparisons -- Grade D-...
Where are the Grade A numbers? It's not that I don't believe the ROMs are not an improvement, it's just where are the numbers to support these raves?
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
You're not telling us what you want. You said you wanted numbers so I gave you a bunch. Then you say you don't want those numbers. So, I ask again. What do you want?
I'll be brutally honest on this one. Vegan isn't that fast. From all my tests, Calkulin+Clemsyn combo is by far the fastest custom rom+kernel for the gtab.
After trying out everything, I'm back to Calkulin+Clemsyn combo.
Would you like me to make a video of myself openning various programs and post it for you? What do you want?
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
You also have a misconception of what rooting is/does.
To become root in Linux/Android is to gain administrative privileges. In windows root would be called Administrator. Gaining root privileges gives you the ability to change system files and settings, NOTHING MORE. By itself it does nothing.
Now boys...
The fact is that if you need numbers, reports,testimonials or anything else to justify mucking around with the gtab thenyou probably should just get an iPad. Nothing to prove then -everyone "knows" its the best-no numbers needed! The gtab is for people that don't mind the hardware and software quirks as long as they have the freedom to mess around. Its not about the numbers -its about the experience.
[Q] Why should we ..?!
Droofus said:
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am not sure anyone here is trying to sway you in one direction or the others.
Here is how things go in community forums like this one:
- People search for what they got in mind first.
- If they didn't find its either undoable or not that interesting for the community that no one bothered doing it.
- In both case those people are expected to either drop whatever they are wishing for or pursuit it on there own and then share their findings with the community.
In other words, why the heck am I supposed to go beyond whatever benchmarks readily available on the market to show YOU how good/bad are custom firmwares compared to stock ones when :
- custom firmwares are volatile and each couple of days there is a new rom or rom add on or a kernel released (am I supposed to maintain the stats for every single update released ? else how meaningful would be my outdated stats to you? when it represents a ROM that is no longer a candidate)
- the whole flash back and forth and in between roms is a 10~20 minutes process of YOUR time which would suffice to answer all your questions.
If you still need some usability tests (you can use your own stop watch to time through the videos) you might want to check here.
Best of luck,
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this was the best answer.
The information you are demanding is indicating your ignorance. As was already stated rooting does nothing for performance. If you want numbers you can install each rom and test with each kernel setting whatever your heart desires. Its not likely anyone else even cares as most people only care about stability and a lack of lag
Droofus said:
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting itself does nothing other than giving you root - the speed of your device before and after rooting is identical.
Now, if you want to talk about the speeds with or without an overclocked kernel, or with a custom Froyo vs custom Ginger vs stock rom, as others have said there are plenty of posts out there.
Mine lasted on the stock rom for exactly one boot after opening the box - so I could copy on the bits to begin the rooting/custom rom flashing goodness.
cu_ninja said:
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
If I go to a notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards, the various card performances in various games are reviewed. The reviews are very professionally and objectively done with detail. Clicking on any specific card opens a detailed review of that card. This allows users to make decisions based upon what sorts of (graphic game) uses they might actually have.
It seems a similar but much smaller objective set of benchmarks could be performed on the various g tablet roots using a set of common uses in part noted above. It doesn't need to be as elaborate or detailed as the video card review site noted above. Just objectively testing a few simple end user tasks would seem to be adequate to get beyond the subjective raves that one commonly sees about this or that OS change...
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
So is this a religious thread, I see Jesus was mentioned.
Actually sometimes you modders act like it.
I'll get the other times later. Here is the startup time.
Droofus said:
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, while I can see your point, I also have to point out the other side of the argument. I am an engineer. Last year, we got a college graduate who, from the outlook, had all the numbers and credentials. He graduated with almost a perfect gpa. Sounds nice, right? He had all the numbers. The problem was as soon as he began working with us we figured out very quickly that we had a book smart-absolutely no common sense person with us. I swear, he pulled me aside one time and asked me why they were "watering the concrete slabs" in the lab. It got worse from there. I had to explain to him very basic engineering concepts and applications like stirrups, slippage, etc.
This guy actually went through college getting the grades and everything without actually understanding any of it. He graduated with a structural engineering degree without knowing the very simple practical processes of curing concrete or reinforcing footings.
The point is numbers can be deceiving if you ignore annecdotal (aka common sense) evidence. You need both objective numbers and common sense to work in reality. Sure, I've heard plenty of annecdotal nonsense like creationist BS, religious miracles, and homeopathic crap. I'll give you that. But you seem to be on the other extreme side, which is to ignore all personal evidence and place all your bets on pure numbers.
I'm telling you now. We got both the numbers and personal evidence. I'll try to get them for you.
Doofus
I like the list of missing benchmarks you listed. Why don't you measure them and report back?
Droofus said:
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All those numbers are identical before and after rooting your device since nothing changes before and after root, other than you now have root access.
That was easy.
1
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Theres some more random numbers
While watching everyone bash eachother here has its entertainment i have some advice.
Droofus
1 i would recomend not comming into a community forum and bashing people who put a lot of effort into making the product you own better. These people don't get paid for the hours of work they put in.
2 if you don't like how thing are done around here take the time to be a good example and do it better. You clearly have an idea in your head on how to make a professional stastical representation of the roms so do it.
3 what some people are trying to tell you is that it is not all about the numbers. Some people want gingerbread features. Right now all of the gingerbread roms suck for video performance due to driver issues so i don't use them. I like the gingerbread features but i watch videos a lot so i use a froyo rom. Others really care about performance so they give up some stability and overlock.
4 people around here get upset when the same question gets asked over and over again. If you have done some reasearch reference other articles to show that.
5 this is a dual core tablet, what are you doing that you care that much about preformance.
This thing is faster than my netbook.
6 dropping your title on us just makes you sound pretentious. There are a lot of very intellgent successful people here who are not impressed by doctors or your past experience. If you have useful skills to the community don't brag just use them and people will be grateful.
7 people were a little rude about it but they are right. I tell people that if they want something that is easy go buy an ipad or a xoom. If you want something for under 300 then buy a g tab and understand that with some effort it can be great.
Everyone
1 relax... starting flame wars with someone who doesn't know their way around isn't going to help anyone.
I forgot to mention that traditionally us geeks are known for our lack of formal documentation.
P.s. while many of us proudly wear the badge of geek calling us a pack of geeks is a little adversarial.
I've started this thread to just get other developers opinions,
I started developing Android applications about 8 months ago with a friend (both of us had no previous experience) and after a shaky start thing picked up. We had some applications that floped and some that slowly picked up.
Heres the problem, Google Play now allow users rate the app in "Helpfulness" which don't sound like such a bad idea but it don't work. Ratings that are at the top are not relevant to the app anymore, there old rating referring to problems with the old version, and whats worse is I can't see them going down. Think about it if they are at the top their getting more coverage people are likely to hit "helpful" because they THINK it's helpful, and why would you go though the comments if you like the app... you wouldn't. So that really favors bad comments. This problem is not just with happening to us it's the same on many apps, I saw one the other day dated from 2010!?! how does that help!?
Anyway I just wanted to get other dev's opinions on this, is it affecting you or am I just missing the point?
(Survey Closed - Results Below)ASUS Prime Online Objective Survey & Results Review
Ok fellas,
I have constructed an online survey questionnaire as I have previously suggested here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1707406&page=31
This way issues can be objectively collected and centralised – and if follow up is needed by ASUS. This online survey only serves to kickstart “things” in a more directional fashion, rather than the usual scattered complaints which are difficult to follow and sometime lead to a lot of duplications.
Hopefully we can get as many people to do this and we can get the general idea what is going on with our prime.
Also, if the data is useful enough, maybe we can get some of the guys in here who are close to asus to send them the data and hopefully they will do something about it. Or following the data collection, perhaps a second detailed survey can be collected to home in into issues that matter most to the end-users.
The link for the survey is here - And you can see the cumulative results at the end of the survey
https://kwiksurveys.com?s=MLKOKM_b334b37b
Note:
(1) At the end of the survey, the cumulative results are shown(hence instant result – no secret statistics to hide). And individual result is there for everyone to see and follow.
(2) Questions marked “*” are compulsory
(3) Please answer non-compulsory questions if possible so better picture can be drawn in the end
(4) If your cookie is enabled, you can change your answer after completing the questionnaire but only one survey is considered valid per ip address
(5) If you have suggestions on what other questions there are to add or details to add, pm me and I will change it. Or if you note any gross logical error in the construction of the questions, pm me.
Disclosure of interest:
I don't know anyone from ASUS. I neither work for ASUS nor have worked for ASUS and I don't work for rival companies. I am doing this as part of (or lack of) my contribution to this forum.
Update (20/06) - Survey is now closed See results review at post #23 #24 #25 #26 #27
all.pdf - all results to date (164 responses)
anyappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with ANY apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 1)
specificappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with SPECIFIC apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 2)
The results can be filtered against multiple criteria. If you have a request, tell me and I will do it at my earliest opportunity. Raw data can also be exported into xml/xls/csv format.
I filled out the survey. I want to give you a huge THANKS for doing this. And Asus should give you a free Infinity lol
Yuhfhrh said:
I filled out the survey. I want to give you a huge THANKS for doing this. And Asus should give you a free Infinity lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No worry dude. Used to think that linux has mind of its own. But this thing is in a different league, seems like a living organism/psychopathic ex-gf to me. I am baffled.
maxfac1234 said:
No worry dude. Used to think that linux has mind of its own. But this thing is in a different league, seems like a living organism/psychopathic ex-gf to me. I am baffled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That pretty much hits the nail on the head. This tablet is very temperamental. You never know how of is going to act when you boot it up.
cause to ponder
I have been in IT for 30 years now, and have used just about every device ever made or at least one representative sample. The only people I ever see complaining about devices are generally people who don't read up on them, load way too many conflicting apps into them, or try to do way too much, and complain because everything doesn't work - what I call "Swiss army knife syndrome". Most of the above can be attributed to pure inexperience. Of course statistically 5-10% of the people doing anything on the planet just aren't pleased with anything, so you have to take that number right off the top - they will never know how obstinate they are so don't bother. I have had very few problems with this device, and I do not consider myself lucky - just experienced. Great survey. I really hope it helps!
Some preliminary results
So far there 72 responses over the last almost 24hours – Which I think isn't bad.
(1) I have pasted the “compact” "raw" data in pdf form in the OP / post #1– And I will try to do this for every 50-response-increment. There are two files:
i. all the results
ii.the results filtered against those who have problems with ANR's/FC's with ANY apps at ANY duration (just to give you the idea and sample what the tabulated data look like) – Question #22 in the survey.
(Edit 1): I'd forgotten to click "expand" for the "text based input results" - In case you're wondering why they appear truncated.
(2) The result can be filtered – e.g. information "just from rooted users" or information "just from users who have x problem(s)" – If you want to view any data filtered with certain criteria, tell me and I will try to do it when I am free and post it here for everyone to follow up. Unfortunately the particular website I am using doesn't allow me to filter against serial number right now as it requires 4 alphanumerics in the filter field – However, the expanded raw data can be exported into csv/xml/xls format for anyone who is interested.
More inputs please.
@photogf4
Maybe you should beginning read some of the many treads about Primes problems and issues before you make a statement like yours. There is a VERY GOOD REASON why no one else still had a quad core tablet out for sale (including Asus themself !) Asus olso accept that they have problems with Prime .
Please notice; XDA people that have problems with Prime are NOT Android novices. I promise you, that they all have trying much, much more then normal customers will and can do to to find a solution on Primes very stranges behavior.
Wow, sorry... I didn't expect a guilty conscience so soon! I assure you i read xda nearly daily, and it is a fabulous reference with serious people serious about making these devices the best they can be. I am not trolling, just making an observation. I maintain that he 80% of people left need to ask themselves if they are causing their own problems before they skew the survey. Thanks to xda i have a cell that i can manage my entire company network with, and two tablets -101 and 201 that run flawlessly ( I gave my Apple tablet to someone else). Any problem I have ever had was my own fault, other than gps. I bought a few 201's for my staff, and they don't have problems either!! Don't blame the hardware until you look at the software.
An additional observation is that if no one on xda used the developers' product and discussed it here, this would be moot. Thu site needs users as well, and i appreciate the privilege.
photogf4 said:
I have been in IT for 30 years now, and have used just about every device ever made or at least one representative sample. The only people I ever see complaining about devices are generally people who don't read up on them, load way too many conflicting apps into them, or try to do way too much, and complain because everything doesn't work - what I call "Swiss army knife syndrome". Most of the above can be attributed to pure inexperience. Of course statistically 5-10% of the people doing anything on the planet just aren't pleased with anything, so you have to take that number right off the top - they will never know how obstinate they are so don't bother. I have had very few problems with this device, and I do not consider myself lucky - just experienced. Great survey. I really hope it helps!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what your saying is Asus is sending out updates, gps dongles and rma's just for fun? 30 years in IT ....you might want to look into taking some refresher courses or perhaps a a new line of work.
Enough with the personal attacks... try and stay on topic!
The last four posts have gone waaayyy of topic. Please stay on topic which in this case is a user survey regarding problems people are having with the Prime, and please keep all comments constructive.
Thanks.
Good idea!
Just filled the survey! Thank you for your time!
I have a problem that I haven't solved yet, and I hope this survey helps in any way!
Thank you again!
PS: BTW, here's my problem explained http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1716591
Sorry about the post.
I did not mean to go off topic, but for anyone to come and deny that the Prime has no problems is just unrepresentative of the community as a whole. I do realize that some problems are user induced but most of these are well documented across many different user bases! If this were not so, we would not see ASUS patching and working with consumers on this somewhat personal level.
I have to believe with the data at hand that the problems lie in the manufacturing of the device or materials used. It looks like someone's quality assurance department fell asleep on the job, and now many people suffer from problems, and maybe even ASUS because one manufacturer let some bad material pass that should of been tested more thoroughly.
But hopefully, the data collected from this survey is pointing to some common things that many users are experiencing, which will be able to be addressed with new firmware and software. Thanks for creating the survey and I wish I could take it again because I did not know you had to save each page as you went along and only saved the last page, which did not let me see the current tally. Peace, V
@vvveith
I had a look at the survey again and how it works - You don't have to save each page as you go along - They are automatically saved - In the end, it should show you the cumulative results. But again there may be quirks that I am not aware of.
However, if you want to do it again and put some comments in - Just go to the same link and do it again - but from what I understood from the website that provide the service, each ip is logged to prevent multiple entries, so
(1) if you do it again (with your cookie previously enable and still available), then your result based on your ip will be changed accordingly (I have enabled this in the survey setting)
but
(2) if you do it again (with your cookie previously disabled or cookie is not available), then your survey input will just be rejected
(3) the other workaround is for you to hook onto your neighbour's free wifi or work's ip
(General) in any case, I will be updating the full unfiltered results soon. If you have a specific request, i.e. to have the results filtered against specific criteria, just make it known here and I will try do it.
Update 19/06
I've updated the survey results (see OP/post #1):
all.pdf - all results to date (127 responses)
anyappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with ANY apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 1)
specificappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with SPECIFIC apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 2)
A thought:
(1) A quick glance at these results shows some recurring themes in terms of the good, bad and ugly.
(2) This “to date/.28” survey not only shows magnitude of certain issues (evidenced by answers to compulsory questions on certain well known issues) but also shows some improvements in certain other areas (again evidenced by answers to compulsory questions and the free-text based inputs). However a quick glance also show some not-so-new minor issues which are still persistent (the list of these problems mostly in the free-text based inputs)
(3) If I understood some of the other posts in other threads correctly, the beta testers are testing .28.5 – This “to date/.28” survey will be a good baseline shall we all want to run a second survey.
(4) If a second survey is run (after .28.5 or newer that is), we can home in into bigger issues found in this survey with more details – and see where improvements/deteriorations occur in a more objective fashion. And at the same time assess the magnitude of minor issues listed in this survey by formalizing them into multiple choices.
Essentially, next categorization (based on usability with assumption “what lay people would possibly find frustrating” rather than pure technical aspect it) would be:
High frequency non-severe issue (e.g. gps, wifi intermittent dropping)
High frequency severe issue (e.g. severe wifi drops with distance, ANR's and FC's)
Low frequency non-severe issue (e.g. small number of specific apps with ANR's/FC's)
Low frequency severe issue (e.g sleep of death and failed update - ?semi brick)
Mystical issue
Have a look at the results.
maxfac1234 said:
I've updated the survey results (see OP/post #1):
all.pdf - all results to date (127 responses)
anyappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with ANY apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 1)
specificappfcanr.pdf - filtered against ANR's/FC's with SPECIFIC apps at ANY duration (just a sample idea 2)
A thought:
(1) A quick glance at these results shows some recurring themes in terms of the good, bad and ugly.
(2) This “to date/.28” survey not only shows magnitude of certain issues (evidenced by answers to compulsory questions on certain well known issues) but also shows some improvements in certain other areas (again evidenced by answers to compulsory questions and the free-text based inputs). However a quick glance also show some not-so-new minor issues which are still persistent (the list of these problems mostly in the free-text based inputs)
(3) If I understood some of the other posts in other threads correctly, the beta testers are testing .29 – This “to date/.28” survey will be a good baseline shall we all want to run a second survey.
(4) If a second survey is run (after .29 that is), we can home in into bigger issues found in this survey with more details – and see where improvements/deteriorations occur in a more objective fashion. And at the same time assess the magnitude of minor issues listed in this survey by formalizing them into multiple choices.
Have a look at the results.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually the new build I'm testing is .28.5 they could end up sending me an even newer one though.
demandarin said:
actually the new build I'm testing is .28.5 they could end up sending me an even newer one though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
woot woot *corrected. Thanks fella. Looking forward to the new build soon!
demandarin said:
actually the new build I'm testing is .28.5 they could end up sending me an even newer one though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And how's it looking so far?
Did the survey. Thanks for putting this together.
However, few suggestions:
- add SKU to the base questions
- add dock / no dock to the questions
- add no issue as a separate answer
- add common answers given as text as separate answer
... Just some ideas. Also, could you compile a comparison between root and stock?
Thank you.
Sent from my HTC Desire using xda premium
tobi01001 said:
Did the survey. Thanks for putting this together.
However, few suggestions:
- add SKU to the base questions
- add dock / no dock to the questions
- add no issue as a separate answer
- add common answers given as text as separate answer
... Just some ideas. Also, could you compile a comparison between root and stock?
Thank you.
Sent from my HTC Desire using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good ideas - all.
Also: SOD? I did not see it in the survey, and I am hit with it, lately VERY infrequently, but yes, I have had an SOD event (just a single occurrence) on .28
Though I wonder how to effectively track text based answers, they can provide additional dat that would otherwise not be picked up. I think this is an idea who's time has really arrived. Too many unscientific and off the cuff observations around these forums. Thank you very much for this. A good set of data, even with some margin of error is extremely valuable as a tool for some honest measurements in the field. I would venture to say that the respondents here are somewhat more "polarized" (to put it mildly) and that the BASIC group of non-techie Prime owners are, in many case not even AWARE that their tablet has issues, unless they are painful, or incapacitating is some noticeable way.
What has always been my biggest annoyance with the Prime is it's obvious lack of a major performance advantage over the OG Transformer, which I sold to buy this. Yes, it is slim, and pretty, and had all the ingredients for a technical slam-dunk. It has just never "wowed" me like I expected.
anyway, I got off subject there, or rather too detailed for this particular thread. I liked that the guy with the sensors issue simply linked to his thread, instead of going off all over the place like... er... well, like me, I guess. Sorry bout that. One thing you can NOT accuse Prime owners of is not being passionate about their tablets.
Thanks again for doing this. Perhaps a quick update after the ew firmware would be good as was suggested.
In the past, CM has allowed users to opt out of sending their data. It's recently decided to remove the "optout feature" (c'mon, is that really a "feature"), forcing users to eat it.
http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/0...pting-out-of-cm-stats-cyanogen-says-to-chill/
"Cyanogenmod Will No Longer Allow Opting Out of CM Stats-- Cyanogen Says to Chill"
in response, i kindly made this argument:
"A fundamental issue still exists. If the data is collected via a unique identifier, and it has a timestamp, then it isn't as anonymized as people think. Anyone with a basic understanding of data security knows that. I think the uproar has to do with the reputation of the team as the protectors and defenders of our platform...you give us choice. But when we see behavior that doesn't add up, were naturally going to believe you've used that position in the community to do evil. We understand you want the the data.
What doesn't make sense, and the natural road for us all to go down:
1) is this being used to monetize CM?
2) installation data: to include location, language, device, build version, and carrier, are all things that can be identified using a single, static event report. Why should we be comfortable with an always-collecting, transmitting-in-the-background service? What's the use-case for this? You've said yourself that Google Play apps themselves often collect this data..why is that method insufficient for CM? And why should we have to expect the same from you guys as we do from everyone else. Surely there's a way to collect the necessary data you need with a scalpel, negating the need for a device drag-net like this.
In all seriousness, i trust CM to do the right thing...i just can't tell right now if they've done the lazy thing, and created a service which is omnipresent, omnipotent, running in the background and silently spying on me, just so CM can tell which language my device is running, my general location, my build information, etc.
That's fine, it's simple data, and it's fairly straight forward.
The question is, if you needed that data (which CM says it does), then why are you collecting a much, much more complicated data set, and why won't a simple installation report do? Why won't running for a short period of time...say, 5-7 days do?
Why did they take the Carrier IQ route?
Maybe they want it just so they can have it. As Koushik stated on the google plus post (where he does a great job at assuaging some fears, and creating others):
"---Did you know over half of our users are in China? They just passed the US in terms of CM installation base.
Call it ego surfing, but the data is incredibly useful."
So they're collecting all this data, without a need? It's obvious why it's extremely useful to understand, say....which language most of your users use, etc. But you don't need a 24/7 service to find out what language people use your device in.
Anyways, here's the Google + Post:
https://plus.google.com/103583939320326217147/posts/GwnzKJijBKj
Here, he has, however, provided a screenshot of your data in action, assuaging the fears of most (we never truly get to see what our data looks like after its sent through the mizteereeus pipez of the interwebz, magically transformed, and then spit back out to an analyst), and he even tells you a bit about what data it collects. What he doesn't say, is why on earth submitting the data once, after installation, in a single report wont do, or why a build report once a week, or however often, wont do.
That's the end of my tinfoil hat tirade. Like i said, i love CM, i trust them, but i'm disappointed. The reasons i listed above are arguments made to explain why people are raising hell because of this. I don't believe they'll do anything nefarious, and personally, they can ego=surf with my data all they want. It IS pretty cool. Maybe the move was a tad bit short-sighted though, because they may have gotten a bit out of touch with their users, and their users opinion of them-- and that's what my posts were supposed to do...they were supposed to bring the way I (and other's) think about them more in line with reality.
Edit: It's important to note that, as explained to us by CM, CM Statistics calls home upon reboot. Whether it runs all the time, or just for a nanosecond upon reboot, or 24/7 is important as well, but I'm unable to verify any of this, because my github skills are w34ks4uce. If we had a independent dev who could take a look at CM Stats and then explain exactly (key word) what it was collecting, that'd be über helpful....but it wouldn't mean anything in the long run. Because I was viewing the macroscopic effects of the decision. A comprehensive announcement and explanation wold probably have been prescient, because the information contained in the Google+ post is just as key as the announcement itself-- the stigma of collecting data is far to strong to just say one day-- "sneaky, sneaky--no more opting out".
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
If this thread turns into a flame fest it will be locked
As for data collection...you are using Android right?
Also check the permissions to all those third party apps.
Thanks in advance for keeping this thread civil or ignoring it.
Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
khaytsus said:
Nothing has changed here, only the fact that it's enabled by default vs opt-out. The dataset hasn't changed.
Don't use it if you don't like it. They are not spying on you. WITHOUT stats they would have zero visibility to what is actually used. Download data is trash compared to actual usage.
And what if they decide they want to improve Language X translations, but only 10 people use it? Worth it? Or what about Device Y that only a handful of people are still clinging onto? Resources can be used in better ways.
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Whoooooooo caaaares delete thread
RoOt-[]D [] []V[] []D-BeEr
Solution to all this: OpenPDroid
briand.mooreg said:
I take my privacy seriously, as I'm sure most of us do. As mentioned previously market apps gain a certain amount of info from us.
Maybe CM should have a free version with no opt out or a pay version with one (key maybe). That should make everyone happy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is a brilliant idea, regardless of the status of CM Stats. A paid version with a extra feature set would be awesome.
As far as the argument for data like language, region, build, etc. I think we can say conclusively that this could be handled by a installation report, that runs once after installation or upgrade.
The type of data they need doesn't neccesitate a background service, which is why its naturally suspicious.
Sent from my Transformer using XDA Premium HD app
btswein said:
This.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I though is was enabled by default. Is this something the devs choose? Upon installation, i see a "cm statistics is running" banner in notification. Even so, what's changing, is their removing opt out all together.
Sent from my Transformer using XDA Premium HD app
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
well there you have it:
Commit MessagePermalink
Restore the opt-out for stats.
* Apparently this is a bigger issue for a small number of extremely
vocal users. We should respect their wishes, no matter how off-base
their claims are in this context.
Change-Id: I9eef9a65260ec4e360d398f80d610a198c09c915
Thanks to: khaytsus
for posting the link
khaytsus said:
http://review.cyanogenmod.org/#/c/35047/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there a way we can educate/frame a conversation around how to do this in a way accepting of the vocal crowd? Perhaps an outreach campaign, minimal in effort that might encourage more users to opt in? This is an area where fundamental good can be done. The same people who've been vocal should have no problem explaining what would get them to opt in.
I think this whole thing might have been a brief thing, but if the statistics really help the project, we can all have our cake and eat it too.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using XDA Premium HD app
khaytsus said:
I knew I'd see a post crying about this eventually...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You knew you'd see a post crying about this because of all that data your collecting told you lol!
Just teasin!
I would have just frozen the background service. ...
We rooty types can do that sort of thing now days. ..
And just to prevent the assumption that I missed the point of the OP. ...I didn't, and can only imagine the amount of target data our carriers pull by simply using our device. (See lengthy contract and service agreement of your carrier)...
CM data is small potatoes by comparison. ..and while quite useful to them in the generation of custom firmwares, it's a useless data source for us.
I've freely given cyanogen my data for years. And in return Steve has given me high quality work for my trouble. .....privacy concerns accepted. ....g
The easiest way to prevent CM from getting any data from you is too not install, not really that hard to figure out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
I've got a few larger tablet type Android devices mounted around the house that I use for security camera viewing. That's the only purpose they serve and they're wall mounted. Next to a couple I have a $20 device from CostCo that displays the current time and current temp as well as lots of other BS I really don't need.
What I'd like to do is eliminate these secondary devices as right next to them is a much more powerful machine that is capable of more accurate temperature and what not. I'd like an app that will display the current time and current temperature in text form right over the top of other apps. I use IP Cam Viewer for my cam app and it has a time feature but the time is too small to see from a distance. Something that allows me to sort of hover the time in the middle of the display with the temp right above or below would be perfect.
I've used the Google Machine and haven't come up with much in terms of a solution that will help me accomplish this. It's probably something very simple that I'm not thinking of or finding... hopefully. It could also be that what I'm looking for is unique enough that it's not out there but I hope not.
Any help, thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Anyone have any ideas?
I'm not really sure why this got moved to "help & troubleshooting" as I don't really need help nor do I have a problem. I just want to know if an app exists that will allow me to do something that is relatively basic.
This site's countless subforums with nondescript descriptions has always been one of it's negatives IMO. In all the years I've been here I doubt I've got a 50% record of not having a thread moved to a section that doesn't seem to make sense. I've had zero issues on all other forums of all types. This is a problem unique to XDA for me.