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Hello! to anyone who might read this
First off, let me tell you a tiny bit about myself (Bare with me here).
My name is Christian, I'm 19 and I'm an intern at an IT-section. I've been working here for a year already - Each year interns are to write two individual papers about different subjects. My last paper was a virtual Windows Server 2003 Server Park Environment for another company. This year my first paper is on Android.
My place of work supports other workplaces, such as schools, the hospital, social workers, basically everything. With next-gen phones and new OS' out - Naturally, we're upgrading. The question is what OS to go with. That's why I was asked to create a paper on Android, showing how a work-phone could be. Not all of the details have been planned out yet, but it goes something like this:
- Create a ROM with the necessary applications
- Strip the ROM of anything ..unnecessary (Could be anything, Gapps even).
- Choose/Develope a Launcher that can work pretty much out-of-the-box without having to customize too much.
That's pretty much all the information I've been given for now. I've been given a HTC Desire to 'play around with'. I've been told we're going to have a meeting about it soon. The reason I'm creating this thread is to give myself sort of a roadmap, I guess. And I'd love your opinions on how I can best do this, what I should base my ROM on and anything else you might think I need to know.
Peace.
It's a great idea for a workplace to go with android for employees given the ability to create more secure levels of access since it's based on linux. Also the ability to tailor the OS and UI to suite the needs of the business are something that's desired more and more these days. The downfalls you'll have to overcome are battery power (stripped down OS could nix that) and the fact that most companies will lean more towards Blackberry for two main reasons.
First is security, lets face it, Google is the internet for the most part and a lot of people fear the unknown such as where does their data go and what's done with it. Is it erased (securely)? Is it shared and what about data leaks?
Also, even though I love Android, for a business setting Blackberry has everything right. Android lacks in the 'push' area by a longshot and (from what I've seen) Blackberry supports more email protocals. Let's not forget when you're emailing all day or writing a paper a physical keyboard is more desired, a lot of Android phones lack that.
If the correct phones were chosen and (with a custom ROM and apps) the right measures were taken to address the push issue, plus maybe some sort of native encryption to ease security concerns - I think you could make a very valid argument to use Android phones for their employees. Android beats the othe OS types by a longshot, you just have to address those small but major issues.
Using Android as platform for devices inside an organization makes a lot of sense.
I disagree with KCRic about the superiority of BlackBerry on push and mail systems compatibility. Remember that BB requires you to use a secondary server to "translate" your Exchange, Notes, GroupWise or whatever you have to the devices.
Agree 100% in terms of the keyboard issue.
Something Android has on its side is that Google is the internet. Android was designed from the bottom up to be a "connected" platform. This means mobile devices with ample access to databases and hosted applications. If a business is still wondering if the data on the cloud is the solution, they may not be here on the next decade.
Believe me, you don't find many devices with VPN support, something that is already supported on most Android ROMs. Secure connections and a secure local storage can be easily achieved, the tools are already there.
Think also not only on phones but many other devices (tablets, kiosks, etc) that can benefit from this idea.
I think the major obstacle will be to convince the service provider to let your organization put customized ROMs on the devices. They will panic. Maybe if your agreement says that you provide the support. I already have to go through some of this (on a different initiative) and it is not easy.
KCRic was right about blackberry .... was. The Droid Pro puts that puppy to bed for good, I think. To the OP, your company needs to take back that desire and get ahold of a Droid pro for you. That'll be the (as of right now) best device for workplace use and give you the best launch-off point.
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input!
My company will most likely be standardizing on the Desire Z as the 'top notch' phone - And some sort of first level entry phone for employees that don't need aweesomesauce features. I've begun dissecting my own ROM using dsiXDA's kitchen. If my company is going to settle on Android as a platform I will have to build the ROM from source, though. Seeing as when I'm finished with my internship someone else will have to continue development on the ROM.
Right now I'm going to dissect a couple of ROMS. My place of work wants to see which of the two fits best for us: AOSP or Sense. I'm an AOSP man myself but Sense is easier to use for 'newbies' and it's also easier to configure too look-and-work-just-like-this, if that makes sense. THANKFULLY dxiXDA's kitchen exists so the workload isn't .. ****ty just yet.
Again, thank you for your input!
zHk3R said:
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input!
My company will most likely be standardizing on the Desire Z as the 'top notch' phone - And some sort of first level entry phone for employees that don't need aweesomesauce features. I've begun dissecting my own ROM using dsiXDA's kitchen. If my company is going to settle on Android as a platform I will have to build the ROM from source, though. Seeing as when I'm finished with my internship someone else will have to continue development on the ROM.
Right now I'm going to dissect a couple of ROMS. My place of work wants to see which of the two fits best for us: AOSP or Sense. I'm an AOSP man myself but Sense is easier to use for 'newbies' and it's also easier to configure too look-and-work-just-like-this, if that makes sense. THANKFULLY dxiXDA's kitchen exists so the workload isn't .. ****ty just yet.
Again, thank you for your input!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you don't want the employees messing around with their phones, I'd definately exclude the Market app (Vending.apk) and include the apps of which you believe they are necessary. There's just to much crap in the market and even if it isn't meant to damage your phone, it still can do some damage if you put too much apps with the same functions on it. Experience? Yes, with my X10. The thing was damn slow until I removed a whole bunch of apps.
So aside from everything that happened with one of the Kernel Devs, I noticed some interesting questions come up. One of the XDA rules is to observe the GPL, a decent policy to both protect the site and do their part to ensure the GPL is adhered to in the spirit of android. Many other developer sites take this stand as well.
My question is, specifically with the HTC stuff, what about sense? Is there an, for lack of a better word, allowance to use sense in ROMs because its integrated in the core of Android on our phones? Does GPL require them to allow developers to release rom updates utilizing sense (and closed-source hardware drivers)? I've done some reading but come across "maybe" and "could be" as the answer.
I'm assuming yes, that since they have a kernel release that's opensource (on HTC-dev) that we are given a license to release sense with an android rom but I'm not exactly sure and my searching hasn't proved fruitful.
I'm learning now, eventually I'd like to release ROMs. My projects tend to be more single-use geared. My old G1 served as a processor for a robotics project I did a couple years ago. My current project is turning an HTC Droid Incredible into a home automation server (small, cellular radio, completely programmable). These are the types of things I'd like to release to the general public but don't want to get mangled in a mess of complaints and/or legal threats.
Granted, my type of ROMs wouldn't have a huge demand and are geared more for the likes of hack-a-day, but these devices have HUGE potential to be more than just phones.
So I guess my question is, are we able to release sense-based roms without fear of legal issues? Or does it have to be ASOP only? I got plans for my 3D but without 3D, It defeats the purpose of a project I'm planning.
Edit: I realize this is a touchy subject, please don't bring flaming into this. I'm looking for more of an informed discussion than a flame war. If you don't agree with someone else, that's fine, but flaming is not for the content of this discussion.
HTC doesn't have a problem with it, then let's do it. They know of our community. (Referring to including sense in our roms)
Via My HTC Evo 3D On The Now Network From Sprint.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I think I remember reading a while back that HTC kinda doesn't mind because Sense came installed on our phones, and what they don't allow is it being ported to other manufacturer's devices, like Motorola and Samsung phones.
again, this is what I recall reading, and not necessarily the official HTC stance on the subject...
miguelfp1 said:
I'm no expert on the subject, but I think I remember reading a while back that HTC kinda doesn't mind because Sense came installed on our phones, and what they don't allow is it being ported to other manufacturer's devices, like Motorola and Samsung phones.
again, this is what I recall reading, and not necessarily the official HTC stance on the subject...
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Click to collapse
I've seen similar references too. I'm wondering since sense is so integrated with android that it'd be allowed by GPL, however, I'm not sure since the source to sense itself is closed which would go against GPL if this is the case. Is it just a matter of them looking the other way? If that's the case, what prevents them from sending a bunch of lawyers one day?
However, if they were mad, they could have stopped Revolution in its steps. I'm wondering if its similar to what Tivo used to do in the early days, look away until their business model changes.
Edit: figured I'd see if they'd give a statement. I emailed them through their support, I doubt I'd hear anything but it'd be awesome to see if they have an official statement. I vaguely remember hearing they support the community, it'd be awesome if they say yes. However, I doubt I'll ever hear anything back once it reaches the tech support centers. Who knows...
Here's what I sent:
Greetings, I'm curious as to your stance on releasing of android ROMs containing HTC sense in the android community. Is this allowed under a limited license or developer agreement? Does this include closed-source drivers as well?
It all boils down to money, if we all have beats without getting the new phone then we won't but the new phone...
All HTC android phones have sense so that part they could care less about imo
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
ktrotter11 said:
It all boils down to money, if we all have bears without getting the new phone then we won't but the new phone...
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
True. To me it seems they basically look the other way. It's no doubt that communities like this greatly increase the value of their phones. Look at HTC compared to Motorola in the respective development communities. I still believe official support would be a lot more beneficial to them from a sales standpoint.
Cabe24i said:
True. To me it seems they basically look the other way. It's no doubt that communities like this greatly increase the value of their phones. Look at HTC compared to Motorola in the respective development communities. I still believe official support would be a lot more beneficial to them from a sales standpoint.
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Click to collapse
In a dream world HTC could throw our devs a few bones so they didn't have to frankenstein stuff together just to make something simple work correctly, but........
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions Thanks
Moving to Q&A
D'oh! Sorry about that, thanks for moving the thread.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Just an update, here is what I received back from HTC.
I understand you would like to know if HTC considers it acceptable for HTC Sense to be included in custom ROMs. I know how handy it is to customize your device and I will be happy to assist. We would be unable to comment directly on this matter, however please refer to the licensing information included with most of our devices. On Android devices, for instance, you can get this from Home>Menu>Settings>About Phone>Legal information.
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Click to collapse
Along the lines of what I expected. Doesn't really answer much, when I get some time I'll read through the agreement looking for defined answer but doubt I'll find one. I didn't last time I checked.
Cabe24i said:
So aside from everything that happened with one of the Kernel Devs, I noticed some interesting questions come up. One of the XDA rules is to observe the GPL, a decent policy to both protect the site and do their part to ensure the GPL is adhered to in the spirit of android. Many other developer sites take this stand as well.
My question is, specifically with the HTC stuff, what about sense? Is there an, for lack of a better word, allowance to use sense in ROMs because its integrated in the core of Android on our phones? Does GPL require them to allow developers to release rom updates utilizing sense (and closed-source hardware drivers)? I've done some reading but come across "maybe" and "could be" as the answer.
I'm assuming yes, that since they have a kernel release that's opensource (on HTC-dev) that we are given a license to release sense with an android rom but I'm not exactly sure and my searching hasn't proved fruitful.
I'm learning now, eventually I'd like to release ROMs. My projects tend to be more single-use geared. My old G1 served as a processor for a robotics project I did a couple years ago. My current project is turning an HTC Droid Incredible into a home automation server (small, cellular radio, completely programmable). These are the types of things I'd like to release to the general public but don't want to get mangled in a mess of complaints and/or legal threats.
Granted, my type of ROMs wouldn't have a huge demand and are geared more for the likes of hack-a-day, but these devices have HUGE potential to be more than just phones.
So I guess my question is, are we able to release sense-based roms without fear of legal issues? Or does it have to be ASOP only? I got plans for my 3D but without 3D, It defeats the purpose of a project I'm planning.
Edit: I realize this is a touchy subject, please don't bring flaming into this. I'm looking for more of an informed discussion than a flame war. If you don't agree with someone else, that's fine, but flaming is not for the content of this discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I skimmed through the thread and didn't see this mentioned. The Linux kernel is covered under the GPL license. Android-AOSP (Android Open Source Project) is covered under the Apache license which could be considered very different.
My limited understanding is the Apache license allows anybody to reuse their code AND gives them the option of NOT posting their source code while GPL requires anybody who uses it to post back what they used/changed/modified.
I'm sure somebody with a better understanding of software licenses could speak volumes to the matter and provide more accurate detail.
Hope that helps point in the right direction!
I just don't get this nonsense. I get why companies are screwing this all up but what I don't get is why we all continue to allow this. The Android update process is broken and there have been a flood of articles on the net talking about the subject. Not one that I have read has come even close to the right solution. Really testing what little faith I have left in the human race. Why so dramatic? Because we have been using the model for our Windows PC for years and yet in somebody's great wisdom chose what we have here and now. Cmon!
Could you imagine getting your Windows PC updates from Time Warner Cable? What a disaster that would be right? What do you think would happen with our PC updates? Exactly what we are dealing with right now on Android. I just don't see what the problem is. Google develops and distributes the OS and updates directly to the end user. The phone manufacturer supplies the appropriate drivers on their website and the carrier keeps their greasy mitts off my phone. Win win for everyone.
I posted this because I think its the best solution. Its better than what we have now that's for sure. What I'm hoping to get out of this post is that you either agree with me or you have a better solution we can all get behind and push for. I know the Windows way isn't perfect and some things will have to be done differently but we don't need to be concerned with all the details. In other words for Example.....Dear Verizon, Samsung, Google. This is how we want out updates. Just get it done and deal with it.
Full Disclosure: Yeah I'm posting this because I'm pretty heated this hasn't been seriously addressed yet. I'm heated more people aren't pushing for more of a Windows update process. I'm heated because I bought a Galaxy Nexus this time around to avoid this and still getting screwed. I'm heated because All my phones have greater potential and we are proving it here at XDA everyday.
One more thought. We really shouldn't be buying our hardware from the carriers either. All any of them have proven so far is that they can run a pretty stable dumb pipe. Every other venture has failed. Like Vcast. I just dont trust them with what may soon replace my wallet among many other things. It could very well be our most personal possessions in these times and they control every aspect we allow them to. It needs to stop. What do you think? Do you want the windows way? Or do you have a better idea?
Long term there are definitely some issues that need to be fixed with Android.
Bloatware is one of the things that annoys me, and judging from the reviews left on Google Play, it annoys everybody. I'm fine with them preinstalling crap on my phone even though I don't like it, PC OEMs have been doing this for years. But it should be completely uninstallable without root.
For OS updates I see no reason why minor versions (ex: 2.3.6 to 2.3.7) can't be distributed from Google to all phones. These updates shouldn't affect drivers and would be similar to Windows Updates. But more people are concerned with major version updates which can't be done this way as they involve driver and/or kernel updates.
Google has a very hands off policy when it comes to Android it seems. OEMs are given a lot of freedom and Google doesn't do much to help them bring updates quickly. This hands off approach may have been a good business model in the early days of Android when Google just wanted to get it out there by any means possible, but I think they need to be more involved now. They should allow OEMs in on development earlier by giving them access to early builds of the next version similar to how Microsoft does. The reason PC OEMs get the newest version on their systems so quickly is because OEMs and hardware manufacturers get to use betas even before the public can. This model may not work on Android, but I really think Google needs to reassess their stance on Android, its not 2009 anymore.
This sort of issues with android is holding back...a lot of companies like presonus (pro audio) dont even bother with developing controlling software for their hardware on android...
Its a shame because we have some very capable hardware but ať least with apple **** they do the work once and it works...
If they were to make applications and have to deal with different hardware and screen resolutions they wouldnt have time to do their job..
A shame that oné day i might have to buy an iPad because of them
the long and short of it is no, at the moment they cant. Windows works because it is a modular kernel which allows for drivers to be installed and therefore easy customisations to be made. Linux is a monolithic kernel which means it needs all drivers for all configurations of hardware in it and then it uses the ones it needs. Android uses the linux kernel so it is difficult to support all the different kinds of hardware on phones in one kernel without it getting huge and hard to manage.
That is before you get to the need to have basebands/amss working with the kernel to provide mobile phone connection and hardware management. You also need bootloaders, recovery consoles etc to work on every phone. Only once those components are in place can you start to talk about keeping the android system up to date on top of those.
Google can't do it all unless they start over and make tools that are compatible with all kinds of hardware.
The easiest way is probably to make a google certification requirement that all manufacturers must support phones through 2-3 major update cycles. That does mean the end of cheap phones and lots of different and smaller niche products though.
Personally I think that the new hardware requirements for ICS are going to mean the end of ldpi and maybe even mdpi android phones as well as anything without a gpu, less than 512mb of ram and a 1ghz or so cpu. Maybe once the hardware becomes a bit more uniform, it will start to get easier to keep up to date too.
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions &
Read the Forum Rules Ref Posting
Moving to Q&A
OK, so I've had Android since the G1, then the Vibrant and now the SGS2 so I'm familiar with flashing and rooting and all that good stuff but some of the basics elude me...
I'm not a coder, programmer or modder in any way, shape or form. Nor do I claim to be.
Here's my question. Google writes the source code for the Android OS, then releases it to manufacturers to add their bloat/spin (TouchWiz, Sense, etc). If the underlying code is the same, why is it not easier to take the original source code and flash it on any phone?
I'll use Windows as an example here:
If I buy a PC with Windows Home Premium on it from HP, I'll get all of the extra bloat that HP puts on the machine to "enhance" my experience. However, if I decide to, I can format (or flash) my PC and install a "clean" version of Windows (direct from Microsoft) on it direct from CD or DVD. Doesn't matter if I format and install on an HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer, etc. because the source code is same. Aside from a couple of driver issues, on first boot, everything works.
Why is it not the same for Android on the phones? Is getting the code for the drivers what holds us back?
The other bonus is that even if something goes wrong, since I essentially rooted my PC (I removed what was originally installed on the PC and put the original source code on it) I can still send it in to get repaired to HP or Gateway or Dell. I can't do that with a phone. If I root my phone, my warranty is void. Even if the hardware is defective.
Windows has a "minimum hardware requirements" that a PC must meet in order to run Windows.
Why would Google not have a similar requirement? "A phone must have these specs to run Android."
I understand that Sense, TouchWiz, etc will add bloat to the interface but (and maybe I'm naive here) it shouldn't be that hard to get back to the source code on the phones, should it?
Help me. I don't understand. Again, I'm not a coder, programmer or modder in any way, shape or form. I root my phone(s) and try to get as close to the original source code as I can but I rely on smarter people to get me there. Granted I could buy a Nexus device and not have to worry about it. However, that just goes to further emphasis my question; Google pushes original source code out to the Galaxy Nexus, Nexus One, Nexus S. So why is it not easier to get that same source code on other phones?
Thanks in advance...
-Steve
The reason you void your warranty with rooting is simply because that's what you agree to when you purchase it. Just something that carriers/manufacturers have gone with and we as consumers haven't fought it. Realistically it might be something that could be addressed in court or through the FCC. If you buy a car and modify it, if something fails unless the dealership can prove that your modification caused the failure they still have to cover the repair under warranty. That said, for now the majority accept it and the majority still do not root and such so it's accepted. Perhaps as more people become aware of what can be done with their phones, especially if companies start using apps like Tasker to increase efficiency of their corporate devices, there's the possibility that this will change.
Buying an Android device, the warranty covers the system installation. Buying a PC, it does not.
The reason you void your warranty with rooting is simply because that's what you agree to when you purchase it. Just something that carriers/manufacturers have gone with and we as consumers haven't fought it. Realistically it might be something that could be addressed in court or through the FCC. If you buy a car and modify it, if something fails unless the dealership can prove that your modification caused the failure they still have to cover the repair under warranty. That said, for now the majority accept it and the majority still do not root and such so it's accepted. Perhaps as more people become aware of what can be done with their phones, especially if companies start using apps like Tasker to increase efficiency of their corporate devices, there's the possibility that this will change.
kuisma said:
Buying an Android device, the warranty covers the system installation. Buying a PC, it does not.
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Click to collapse
I appreciate the feedback and I get the analogies, however, my original question remains unanswered:
Why is it so difficult to get the original source code onto any android device? Is it drivers? Manufacturer incompatibility?
I'd be interested to learn the process (just a general overview and hopefully in English) it takes to port the original source code onto multiple devices.
Thanks again...
-Steve
brisseau said:
Why is it so difficult to get the original source code onto any android device? Is it drivers? Manufacturer incompatibility?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hardware manufacturers develops specific hardware suitable for their devices, requiring special drivers and/or kernel modifications.
The radio code is not a part of the Android OS, and only the Radio Interface Layer (RIL) must conform to the Android API specs.
Hardware manufacturers are free to vary installation parameters such as what disk types to use (mmc, mtd), sizing of partitions to best utilise the available space, etc.
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
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Click to collapse
Normally this can happen only with vendor's signed rom. Only vendors do this sometimes. Examples: Conflipper, 911sniper and recently some other guys. Vendor was naturally HTC.
They all uploaded a lot of official roms to the private host, HTC investigated the case, found the possible leak source and framed them leaking the rom with backdoor. Thus vendor got personal data and later ganged up on them threatening prosecution.
So if you want to be 100% sure that you have back-door-free rom - cook custom Because chiefs don't give a $hit about your personal data, vendor - does!
P.S. And of course:
Remember, just because you're paranoid that doesn't mean that everyone's not out to get you!
than use only the shipt roms from factory , i have used many custum roms and never a problem now i use dynamics 2.0 and he is perfect.
the only thing wath is sure in live is your bird and dead
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
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Click to collapse
Oh. Don't tell this idea to anyone!
I have just bought a new sports car based on money stolen from your phones. New flat to come. Please, wait a little more! Don't spread this information.
Mercurybird said:
How would you know if someone cooked a back door into their ROM. A back door that would allow them to monitor a phone's contents remotely. A phone that's running their ROM of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now without irony.
Of course, you can never be sure. But:
1) XDA-developers is a community of enthusiasts. If we were to steal anything, we could do it long ago. But, in that case, any other developer can reveal the truth about ROM internals and totally ruin reputation of that developer.
While reputation is just an "integer" value stored somewhere in XDA databases and people's minds, maintaining good "karma" in internet is still much more useful IRL (I guess many devs here can confirm it).
It is a pure hobby for almost everyone. Most of us have work, studies, lots of other things to do.
2) Windows Phone isn't really interesting for majority of "evil" hackers. It is a niche platform currently. It is nearly impossible to earn donations or get money any other way on this platform via development. Thus, I am quite sure all developers still keeping this platform alive are real enthusiasts without any criminal thoughts in minds.
3) Low interest leads to small amount of developers, lack of manuals, etc. Even "evil hackers" have to learn _how_ to do harm on specific platform. WP7 unofficial development has a big entry barrier, effectively filtering even power users.
You can ask what are the reasons most of us still work on this platform? Each software engineer loves when his code _works_, and WP7 limitations is better in this case. Because relatively small amount of native code works "out of the box" - I mean, without hours in debugger, decompiler, eyes red due to display backlight, nights spent in code
ultrashot said:
Now without irony.
Of course, you can never be sure. But:
1) XDA-developers is a community of enthusiasts. If we were to steal anything, we could do it long ago. But, in that case, any other developer can reveal the truth about ROM internals and totally ruin reputation of that developer.
While reputation is just an "integer" value stored somewhere in XDA databases and people's minds, maintaining good "karma" in internet is still much more useful IRL (I guess many devs here can confirm it).
It is a pure hobby for almost everyone. Most of us have work, studies, lots of other things to do.
2) Windows Phone isn't really interesting for majority of "evil" hackers. It is a niche platform currently. It is nearly impossible to earn donations or get money any other way on this platform via development. Thus, I am quite sure all developers still keeping this platform alive are real enthusiasts without any criminal thoughts in minds.
3) Low interest leads to small amount of developers, lack of manuals, etc. Even "evil hackers" have to learn _how_ to do harm on specific platform. WP7 unofficial development has a big entry barrier, effectively filtering even power users.
You can ask what are the reasons most of us still work on this platform? Each software engineer loves when his code _works_, and WP7 limitations is better in this case. Because relatively small amount of native code works "out of the box" - I mean, without hours in debugger, decompiler, eyes red due to display backlight, nights spent in code
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Click to collapse
Great comments all around. I'm not a paranoid person. But I couldn't help wondering. I have faith in the community all around, like you said. Accountability doesn't lead to deviousness, it leads to integrity. I've heard that the Android is the hacker phone of choice. Or maybe I was misled in my naivete'. One of the things that I noted in my toying with the xda apps, the root tools tell you to be careful about allowing all of your apps. It's big fun watching what you guys crank out. keep up the good work, and if there is threat out there- crank out some apps for it.:highfive: