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I saw this at the http://www.alk.com store. They're selling copilot Live 8 with maps for $19.99. limited time of course. I got my copy.
What do you think? I'm considering it since it's only $20. Not thrilled with amAze or nav4all, both free. I like google maps but it's not voice navigation.
I watched this review and it looks pretty good. Can't beat 20 bucks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3sI0iu1OQk
Bought and used this weekend just for short trips around town. Handy and worked okay but not a replacement for my Garmin.
$20 seemed too cheap to pass up.
Used it this morning. Works great. Kiss AT&T telenav good bye!
Think they're trying to get users hooked before someone converts 'Google Maps with Voice naviagtion' to WM for free!!!
Steeve24 said:
Think they're trying to get users hooked before someone converts 'Google Maps with Voice naviagtion' to WM for free!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was my thought.
lol damn, saw this too late... It's $24.99 now...
i jumped on this deal too. if you download the pc app for it they even offer a new map for free. the new map is outdated though. both maps do not have my neighborhood on them. my neighborhood is about 2 years old and just started showing on maps within the last year. ocn had it mapped last summer and it showed on both google and tomtom this summer. i'm pretty surprised that it's not on the new map.
I used to use co-pilot but gave up because I called them way too many times to reset my "keys". It was hard to explain to them that I flashed my "custom" rom like I changed underwears. The lady there would questioned me why I have so much problem. I guess they think I am installing it in various phones of mine. So I switched to IGO8 to get away from having to call them when I flash another custom rom.
I used to sent in logs of areas that I droved that are not in their maps...and they would update their maps.
As far as their GPS, it is pretty good.
SL said:
I used to use co-pilot but gave up because I called them way too many times to reset my "keys". It was hard to explain to them that I flashed my "custom" rom like I changed underwears. The lady there would questioned me why I have so much problem. I guess they think I am installing it in various phones of mine. So I switched to IGO8 to get away from having to call them when I flash another custom rom.
I used to sent in logs of areas that I droved that are not in their maps...and they would update their maps.
As far as their GPS, it is pretty good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi SL...I also have it..do not need to call....all you need to do is to de-activate CoPilot before you flash and the re-activate when done. I hope this helps anyone.
Thanks for the tip! I bought it & installed, but wondered if there would be issues next time I decided to flash...
now with deactivate button
I went for the deal. So far I like it, but haven't used it enough to make an informed judgement. (as well as its my first tbt nav app). I did want to say to SL thatCopilot Live 8 has a deactivate button in the app now so there is no need to call support if you load a new ROM .....as long as you remember to deactivate it first.
I bought it over the 'sale' weekend, and have flashed twice since then without de-activating it. I don't use the 2577 folder install method, I use Sashimi to copy the entire \Program Files\CoPilot directory structure from a backup location. The first time I run it it needs to re-activate, but it only takes a couple seconds.
Can anyone confirm the necessity of de-activating before flashing?
I did it also.
So far soo good ! .
I used to have the old IPAQ Nav program moved over from my old IPaq 6515 to my previous HTC diamond. It worked well , but the graphic was basic.
Since to weeks I have the Samsung Omnia 2 (Bell Canada)and the new CoPilot seems to run very nice (at least graphic wise) and I find it preety easy to use.
Anyway for 20 bucks was a great value !
Works much better then Google maps. The Copilot maps don't have my Street either, my development is about 2 years old. Very good user interface.
Ironically enough , close to my house they made a link between two streets a year ago , and I see it on Copilot , but not on Google maps on-line !
Go figure..
Well I had ordered my G-tablet from Amazon and when I got it it was sealed in the cellophane and everything looked in order. When I charged it and powered it up though it didn't go through the new setup per say as the manual states.
Plus many apps were already on the home screen like angry birds. Plus a live walpaper was set as the walpaper. I had trouble trying to install some apps plus I kept getting force closes on almost all apps. I decided to do a factory reset.
Let me say now it looked and performed like a brand new one going through the steps. Like setting up family and name accounts. setting the time. wireless connection...
This makes me unhappy because anytime somebody returns a product for whatever reason the item is suppose to go back to the manufacturer to be checked out and repaired if necessary. Then I believe they are sold as refurbished.
This sounds like someone at amazon got it back under the belief that somebody just wanted to return it. They in turn put plastic wrap on it and resold it.
paulc35 said:
Well I had ordered my G-tablet from Amazon and when I got it it was sealed in the cellophane and everything looked in order. When I charged it and powered it up though it didn't go through the new setup per say as the manual states.
Plus many apps were already on the home screen like angry birds. Plus a live walpaper was set as the walpaper. I had trouble trying to install some apps plus I kept getting force closes on almost all apps. I decided to do a factory reset.
Let me say now it looked and performed like a brand new one going through the steps. Like setting up family and name accounts. setting the time. wireless connection...
This makes me unhappy because anytime somebody returns a product for whatever reason the item is suppose to go back to the manufacturer to be checked out and repaired if necessary. Then I believe they are sold as refurbished.
This sounds like someone at amazon got it back under the belief that somebody just wanted to return it. They in turn put plastic wrap on it and resold it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Send it back stating what you just stated. It's your money you decide what you want to spend it on. You were purchasing new and that is what you were expecting, however, that is not what you feel you got. So send it back for one that makes you happy.
I believe a lot of gTablets are coming like this.. I got mine 2 or 3 months ago, and experienced exactly this.
As for Angry Birds, I believe they advertise this as coming pre-loaded on the gTablet.
You can return it, but I bet many here will tell you that you'll wind up with exactly the same scenario on the new one they send you.
Mine came the same way. I remember someone posting here that a Viewsonic rep said many (or all?) tablets were tested before being sealed up. If you load up the web browser, you might even notice it's got CNN.com cached and displayed, which seems to be part of the test suite. Your tab is likely new as Amazon stated, you just weren't the first human to touch it
TheKaz said:
I believe a lot of gTablets are coming like this.. I got mine 2 or 3 months ago, and experienced exactly this.
As for Angry Birds, I believe they advertise this as coming pre-loaded on the gTablet.
You can return it, but I bet many here will tell you that you'll wind up with exactly the same scenario on the new one they send you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No its ok....I'm just glad I decided to select the factory reset. Because there were many things going wrong that shouldn't have been..As far as angry birds being include, or not is not what really told me someone had set this tablet up because it didn't go through the normal process of step by step setup procedure.
I had several apps on the home screen, which when I reset it I had very few and no angry birds, but hey it worked and setup an account like a new tablet out of the box was suppose to..
So all is well. I'm just stating this isn't right if Amazon is doing this with returns.
Somebody had mine not knowing what they were doing that caused many problems...
Paul
dfin13 said:
Mine came the same way. I remember someone posting here that a Viewsonic rep said many (or all?) tablets were tested before being sealed up. If you load up the web browser, you might even notice it's got CNN.com cached and displayed, which seems to be part of the test suite. Your tab is likely new as Amazon stated, you just weren't the first human to touch it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
did yours come with the inability to install basic apps like amazon app store app, or force close on everything you did. nothing would play correctly. Videos. I bet not. So whomever had their hands on this one did a little more than they were suppose to..
When new it asks you to set the time and if your account if a family and the names of the family, setup email, setup wireless in a certain order. My tablet didn't do that....any of that. It was like powering up somebody elses tablet without their email account or wifi.
Paul
Anyway all is good..
To others if you have one new out of the box and have a lot of problems..force closing of apps then I suggest you just do the factory reset. save you a lot of headache down the road
Assuming you had the falling leaves live wallpaper, this is how they are currently shipped.
This is how they come. I had lots of apps FC right out of the box. As well as all the icons on the desktop and no 'new user' setup. This is normal as long as it had the plastic wrap on it and the actual unit looked untouched.
LucasMN said:
This is how they come. I had lots of apps FC right out of the box. As well as all the icons on the desktop and no 'new user' setup. This is normal as long as it had the plastic wrap on it and the actual unit looked untouched.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok this is normal and weird at the same time with the ( this is how they come live wallpaper and apps force closing), but the strange thing that everyone will have to agree on is the restore, or resetting of the tablet where e
verything is suppose to go back to the way it was out of the box. Live wallpaper and the installed apps like angry birds should have been there. Right? I mean if this is how they ship. No not on my tablet. i got aw blue background with clouds and only the basic apps, which is fine because with the system reset I didn't have anymore forced close apps and i was able to download and install amazon app store without problem and actually use it. thank u to everyone that commented
Mine was the same way when I got it... After I turned it off for the first time and back on, it gave me the "out of the box" setup screen. It does seem like Viewsonic would want to make a better impression for the user.
paulc35 said:
did yours come with the inability to install basic apps like amazon app store app, or force close on everything you did. nothing would play correctly. Videos. I bet not. So whomever had their hands on this one did a little more than they were suppose to..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't know -- about 10 minutes after I received it, I had already flashed a different ROM After reading the horror stories, I was not interested in even one minute of the stock experience.
Seems from my memory most of the ones from Woot.com came like this. Mine did.
I got mine from Woot and it came with Angry Birds preinstalled. The worst thing is that I can't even play, it show a blank screen when I tried to run the application. Only when I update the ROM to 3588, the apps worked!
I have two gtablets and they both came pretty much the same way. Now you should be able to understand why the gtablet somewhat flopped when they were first released with software like this. I have kept one of them stock that my 5 year old daughter uses and mine has Cyanogenmod 7 on it and they both actually work well. Out of the box was pretty ugly though.
dfin13 said:
I wouldn't know -- about 10 minutes after I received it, I had already flashed a different ROM After reading the horror stories, I was not interested in even one minute of the stock experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you flash or change the ROM?
I bought 2 gtablets fromwoot and both came intheexact same state. Never felt used but both tablets hadthe exact test proceduredone even had the icons on the sameplace somaybe its a nandroid(or master pre rom) made tohave angrybirds preloaded
Any way both got rooted and rommed so i dont complain
Enviado desde mi GTablet usando Tapatalk
Mine was the same. The packaging looked new, but the extra launcher on it meant it wasn't direct from the factory.
After a week of not being sure if I wanted to send it back, I found a rom I like, and am very happy with it.
paulc35 said:
How do you flash or change the ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check out the subforum here in the gTablet called "Android Development." If you read the instructions and feel comfortable doing it, you gTab experience will be much better.
Ok, so this might be a really stupid question, but for the first time in a really long time I removed the battery from the phone. It is a Momax extended battery.
When I put it back, the time and date had completley resetted back to 2005.
At the risk of sounding like a major idiot, I want to ask if this is normal. I dont remember it doing that before....but it has been a while.
Also, for some reason google maps is not showing up on the market even though I have it installed. I can go the their website and update it through there (link sends me to the market/play store). I know navigation doesn't work in my country but its really wierd that google would remove maps as well.....and why would i be able to access it on the play store by going through their website. It used to be availaible to me before.
Living in Zambia (Southern Africa) by the way
I think you ripped a hole in the battery-time continuum
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk 2
Just got my new Honor 8X Max in the mail and it's the chinese version (I'm living in Europe). The model number is ARE-AL00. I got the GMS installer and the Google Installer v2 and now I can open the play store, but I can't use it to install or uninstall apps, it just gets stuck on the "(un)installing" screen. When I try to install the Play store from a separate apk I usually get a program which I can't even open. And I've tried this with and without the software update. If anyone has got the Play store working on this phone I'd love to know how you did it.
Overall I'm pretty upset with this phone. I didn't realize I was getting the Chinese version and of course it comes with all kinds of censorship and ability restrictions, I spend like 10 hours trying to figure out how to root it and it turns out Huawei decided to make unlocking the bootloader impossible only a few months ago and funkyhuawei (with their insane prices) can't even do anything for a Qualcomm chipset so I'm S.O.L. I don't think the Chinese company I bought from will give a refund after the box is opened so I'm basically out my $300 if I want another phone. I was excited to be getting such great hardware for such a low price but the lack of functionality and customizability makes it a complete waste.
Mikey_AK said:
Just got my new Honor 8X Max in the mail and it's the chinese version (I'm living in Europe). The model number is ARE-AL00. I got the GMS installer and the Google Installer v2 and now I can open the play store, but I can't use it to install or uninstall apps, it just gets stuck on the "(un)installing" screen. When I try to install the Play store from a separate apk I usually get a program which I can't even open. And I've tried this with and without the software update. If anyone has got the Play store working on this phone I'd love to know how you did it.
Overall I'm pretty upset with this phone. I didn't realize I was getting the Chinese version and of course it comes with all kinds of censorship and ability restrictions, I spend like 10 hours trying to figure out how to root it and it turns out Huawei decided to make unlocking the bootloader impossible only a few months ago and funkyhuawei (with their insane prices) can't even do anything for a Qualcomm chipset so I'm S.O.L. I don't think the Chinese company I bought from will give a refund after the box is opened so I'm basically out my $300 if I want another phone. I was excited to be getting such great hardware for such a low price but the lack of functionality and customizability makes it a complete waste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same situation here, here is what I did to get Play Store works on my Honor 8X :
- Turn on the "Authorize unknown source apps install thing"
- Install GMS installer to get the Play Store works
- Install Gboard to get rid of the chinese keyboard everywhere.
But still, I'm searching for the Global Firmware and according to a Honor / Huawei Customer Agent, they do not allow firmware downloads anymore.
Hope this can help other people in the same case...
dogma7 said:
Same situation here, here is what I did to get Play Store works on my Honor 8X :
- Turn on the "Authorize unknown source apps install thing"
- Install GMS installer to get the Play Store works
- Install Gboard to get rid of the chinese keyboard everywhere.
But still, I'm searching for the Global Firmware and according to a Honor / Huawei Customer Agent, they do not allow firmware downloads anymore.
Hope this can help other people in the same case...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot for the help. My more-tech-savvy friend encouraged me to use F-droid and Yalp and that has been working fine so I'm going to give that a try before insisting on getting Google back...I emailed Huawei customer support about unlocking the bootloader and received an interesting response:
"We kindly inform you that in order to achieve a better user experience, Huawei has decided to terminate the unlock code application service. If your device is already rooted, we inform you that it no longer counts with warranty or device support.
Also, Huawei USA does not provide codes to unlock the bootloader under any circumstance. We kindly inform you that this action can potentially "brick" the device or in other words, renders the device completely unusable and voids the warranty service and device support. We have no control over how unlocking the bootloader will affect your device."
I'm emailed Huawei USA just cause I'm American (living in Sweden though), but this response suggests that maybe if I email Huawei Sweden or China that they will give me one? Gonna give it a try and see what happens.
Also my original post may have been a bit reflexive, I need to give this phone a chance. I remember thinking my last phone (Galaxy S5) was pretty stupid for a few weeks, I eventually just got over it.
Mikey_AK said:
Thanks a lot for the help. My more-tech-savvy friend encouraged me to use F-droid and Yalp and that has been working fine so I'm going to give that a try before insisting on getting Google back...I emailed Huawei customer support about unlocking the bootloader and received an interesting response:
"We kindly inform you that in order to achieve a better user experience, Huawei has decided to terminate the unlock code application service. If your device is already rooted, we inform you that it no longer counts with warranty or device support.
Also, Huawei USA does not provide codes to unlock the bootloader under any circumstance. We kindly inform you that this action can potentially "brick" the device or in other words, renders the device completely unusable and voids the warranty service and device support. We have no control over how unlocking the bootloader will affect your device."
I'm emailed Huawei USA just cause I'm American (living in Sweden though), but this response suggests that maybe if I email Huawei Sweden or China that they will give me one? Gonna give it a try and see what happens.
Also my original post may have been a bit reflexive, I need to give this phone a chance. I remember thinking my last phone (Galaxy S5) was pretty stupid for a few weeks, I eventually just got over it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pls hw is d camera n battery of the phone. And d size ,is it too big.just want perfect size lik my honor note 8.Just curious about them.coming from honor note 8.thanks
Sent from my EDI-AL10 using Tapatalk
ogoobaby said:
Pls hw is d camera n battery of the phone. And d size ,is it too big.just want perfect size lik my honor note 8.Just curious about them.coming from honor note 8.thanks
Sent from my EDI-AL10 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes the camera is good quality from what I can tell and the battery life is great. But it is a huge phone, if you don't want something so big then you should probably get the 8X instead of the 8X Max.
Mikey_AK said:
Yes the camera is good quality from what I can tell and the battery life is great. But it is a huge phone, if you don't want something so big then you should probably get the 8X instead of the 8X Max.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks
Sent from my EDI-AL10 using Tapatalk
Mikey_AK said:
Just got my new Honor 8X Max in the mail and it's the chinese version (I'm living in Europe). The model number is ARE-AL00. I got the GMS installer and the Google Installer v2 and now I can open the play store, but I can't use it to install or uninstall apps, it just gets stuck on the "(un)installing" screen. When I try to install the Play store from a separate apk I usually get a program which I can't even open. And I've tried this with and without the software update. If anyone has got the Play store working on this phone I'd love to know how you did it.
Overall I'm pretty upset with this phone. I didn't realize I was getting the Chinese version and of course it comes with all kinds of censorship and ability restrictions, I spend like 10 hours trying to figure out how to root it and it turns out Huawei decided to make unlocking the bootloader impossible only a few months ago and funkyhuawei (with their insane prices) can't even do anything for a Qualcomm chipset so I'm S.O.L. I don't think the Chinese company I bought from will give a refund after the box is opened so I'm basically out my $300 if I want another phone. I was excited to be getting such great hardware for such a low price but the lack of functionality and customizability makes it a complete waste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my very own guide on how to download Play Store on Honor 8X: https://www.oscrunch.com/2018/11/17/google-play-store-on-honor-8x-and-8x-max/
I guess you will have to use a different version of GMS installer. Also, this process requires you to install one more application.
Try this and let me know how it goes. It should work perfectly fine.
um009 said:
I guess you will have to use a different version of GMS installer. Also, this process requires you to install one more application.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you nailed It!
Speaking for myself, I can say that Today I'm a happy owner of a Chinese Honor 8X, but in the past I was in trouble because I was not able to find the *right* version of GSM installer that fits to me (JSN-AL00a).
It was hard to clear all those Chinese apps from my device, but now I have a very strong phone with a high level of performance.
Inviato dal mio JSN-AL00a utilizzando Tapatalk
Mikey_AK said:
Just got my new Honor 8X Max in the mail and it's the chinese version (I'm living in Europe). The model number is ARE-AL00. I got the GMS installer and the Google Installer v2 and now I can open the play store, but I can't use it to install or uninstall apps, it just gets stuck on the "(un)installing" screen. When I try to install the Play store from a separate apk I usually get a program which I can't even open. And I've tried this with and without the software update. If anyone has got the Play store working on this phone I'd love to know how you did it.
Overall I'm pretty upset with this phone. I didn't realize I was getting the Chinese version and of course it comes with all kinds of censorship and ability restrictions, I spend like 10 hours trying to figure out how to root it and it turns out Huawei decided to make unlocking the bootloader impossible only a few months ago and funkyhuawei (with their insane prices) can't even do anything for a Qualcomm chipset so I'm S.O.L. I don't think the Chinese company I bought from will give a refund after the box is opened so I'm basically out my $300 if I want another phone. I was excited to be getting such great hardware for such a low price but the lack of functionality and customizability makes it a complete waste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not snapdragon, but kirin 710 processor
Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 08:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------
azuman said:
Its not snapdragon, but kirin 710 processor
Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok. Sorry, i misread and thought this is the honor 8x forum and that was your phone. My mistake.
Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk
Matteo Mit. said:
Yes, you nailed It!
Speaking for myself, I can say that Today I'm a happy owner of a Chinese Honor 8X, but in the past I was in trouble because I was not able to find the *right* version of GSM installer that fits to me (JSN-AL00a).
It was hard to clear all those Chinese apps from my device, but now I have a very strong phone with a high level of performance.
Inviato dal mio JSN-AL00a utilizzando Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's my pleasure Glad that this guide has helped.
I had issue on installing Google play. Package installer block me from installing gmsinstaller.apk. what you do to get around it is thru adb. Make sure that you turn off "monitor app install by adb" in developer option or it won't work. If you need more detail let me know.
Hi
Now my honor 8x max has all Google App work fine
Thx dude
vietzero said:
I had issue on installing Google play. Package installer block me from installing gmsinstaller.apk. what you do to get around it is thru adb. Make sure that you turn off "monitor app install by adb" in developer option or it won't work. If you need more detail let me know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would love more details about how you solved that please @vietzero. I am also blocked from executing the first apk (on both my 8X and 8X Max).
Cheers!
avmad said:
I would love more details about how you solved that please @vietzero. I am also blocked from executing the first apk (on both my 8X and 8X Max).
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try this
1.Tap 7-8 times on build number it will enable developers option
2.Go to developers options
3.Enable USB debugging
4.Disable Monitor apps installed by ADB
5. use adb install -r MyApp.apk
your apk will be installed.
Thanks @miststudent2011
I eventually managed to get Google Play installed and working (thanks UsamaM). Please see my steps on that page: https://www.oscrunch.com/2018/11/17/google-play-store-on-honor-8x-and-8x-max/#comment-65
thank you very much BOSS
miststudent2011 said:
Try this
1.Tap 7-8 times on build number it will enable developers option
2.Go to developers options
3.Enable USB debugging
4.Disable Monitor apps installed by ADM
5. use adb install -r MyApp.apk
you apk will be installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you very much BOSS
Some one help me why my phone is failed to verification honor 8x max
honor 8x max AL10 China version to global version
Hi.could you please help me with install global rom in my phone...i have the global rom which is from rebranded Huawei y max but not able to install it...dont know what to do really...looks like it's not a normal installation and need a bit more to do... Thank you very much
Cn Rom to Gbl Rom
Is it possible to convert chinese rom to global rom on 8x Max?
Will custom rom work it there is any?
Google problems after security updates
Plz help
Abounour2017 said:
Is it possible to convert chinese rom to global rom on 8x Max?
Will custom rom work it there is any?
Google problems after security updates
Plz help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here.. please help, Google Apps stopped working :/ - Google Play, YouTube, almost all of them..
try:
GMSANZHUANGQI.APK
https://www.filesbeast.net/file/qZMwn
let us know
I currently have the huawei mate 20 x. But I was thinking of selling it to get the cheaper in price 8x max. I got a few questions...
1) Did playstore and google stop working completely on the 8x max? Is there a solution?
2) Will the phone have issues in the future?
3) Will it get Emui 10 in the future?
4) Do you suggest I get it?
plzzzzzzzzz help my phone apps not work at all after an update
Hey Everyone,
Same problem here, it looks like the last update somehow wiped access/rights for the Google apps, that are now not functional (maps and maps based apps like citymapper/Uber and so on, YouTube, Gmail, G agenda, G drive, etc)
I had installed GMS when I received my phone from Hong Kong, to install the Google apps, and it worked fine. But reinstalling it won't do a thing as it has to do with the latest update.
Having a look around, it looks like the only solution is to downgrade it or install a new rom, but the problem is that for that you would need to unroot the phone if I'm correct. But this action is not as easy as on western terminals, at least not free as far as I could see online.
It seems like this problem is only from Chinese originating terminals, so it shouldn't be an issue if you get a phone that was for the western market and should work fine, but I'm not 100% sure. Emui10 neither, but is unlikely.
Finally I contacted customer service and they told me that Chinese phones are not made for the western countries, that they don't provide global ROMs and that they deter people from flashing phones as it could "damage" the terminal... BS.
All in all, it's a great phone, but now I'm left without any solution and few to no developers to come up with a solution as it's kind of a "niche problem". There are probably solutions from Chinese Dev but of no help for us.
The lack of solutions online makes me realise that I have to probably have to get a new phone to carry on using Google apps, which we all became quite dependant from.
Let's wait and see if any dev comes up with something, but I doubt...