Related
OK so my G Tablet is on the way and I've been reading and came across a comment on another forum that the ROM's that exist are built on the original stock software and that the most recent update may be causing problems with CWM? I will be getting my G Tablet on Wednesday, should I not do the update if I am going to be flashing a custom ROM? Thanks in advance!
drum747,
I believe everyone should make their own decisions. But if you ask me -- I'd tell you to simply stick with a stock G-Tablet right now.
When you get yours and go to Settings/About you can see the version -- something
like 1.1.xxxx -- probably 3588. If not, just about as soon as you get wifi connected
it will offer you an OTA (on the air) update to 3588. That's the current working version, and compared to the crud we had back last November it really isn't bad software.
It will lack the Market and some other things...you may have to be patient there.
But you can still side-load apps and download apps directly from a number of places.
But we are waiting. Our devs have found that there is software for a possible
Update 3991. The hope is that OTA 3991 will come down in the next few weeks.
If so, at 3588 stock you will be in perfect shape for that update. And then once you
have worked with it a while, you will be able to decide whether to stick with it -- or look at other options.
It seems like everyone who come in here looks at the ROMs available like a "all-you-can-eat" buffet. The immediately start flashing ROMs and moving around software
until something goes wrong and they are stuck. Indigestion!
With a good 3588 tablet, you can read and interact here and find out the biggest and
the best, and you can learn what you need to that when you are ready you can
move up to whatever you want without problems.
Do what you want. Enjoy the G-Tablet. I think it pretty darn good!
Rev
I agree.........
Stick with the most current stock version 3588. The next update officially available from viewsonic should be very soon, but I don't think it will be 3991 as advertised
3558 was different than what it started as, or it would seem based on what I have gathered from reading old threads.
ale
You know, I have a Droid X and have really enjoyed rooting it and trying different ROM's and was really looking forward to the same type of experience on this tablet. What is the advantage of waiting until the next update? Can't I update, do a full backup and go back to that if I want? Once I install a different ROM, I am then stuck at whatever update and no further updates? Is that why you are saying to wait? Are you saying there will be even better ROM's down the road based on the new update that is coming? Or just that the new update coming might have all the things we would like?
The next update might have some cool stuff... might even be as good or better than the custom stuff here... maybe...
Question is... did you buy the tablet to use it for media consumption or tinkering?
Answer that and you'll know what to do. Just don't forget to make nvflash to factory stock your best friend ;-)
A little of both I guess. Part of the reason I chose this tablet over others is because of the support and customization (and price!) I will try to wait for the next update before I tweak it (if I can!) Heh!! Thanks for the responses guys!! I appreciate the input!
K J Rad said:
The next update might have some cool stuff... might even be as good or better than the custom stuff here... maybe...
Question is... did you buy the tablet to use it for media consumption or tinkering?
Answer that and you'll know what to do. )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is without the best quote I could image. Tinkering without first using the tab and getting to realize it's not a giant phone is the first step I think everyone should understand.
And if you do tinker then you should expect it to have opportunities (problems ).
drum747,
Not addressing your abilities or anything about you.
But read all the crash and burn threads on this forum.
IMHO, to many people are trying to do to much too fast and are
messing up their tabs and have to be bailed out.
I'm just saying be cautious, move slowly and carefully and
don't get into trouble.
However, my advice still stands. If you move on to other
ROMS, etc. now, you will cut off access to offline updates.
Then you will have to go back to stock, etc. And
sometimes going back is as much as problem as going up!
It still would be easier to stay stock now and if an update
doesn't come down soon -- you will have read and learned
and be ready to make choices.
IMHO.
Rev
IMHO... if it ain't powering your pacemaker then learn how to nvflash and have fun.
Be part of the revolution or watch it happen... ;-)
Thanks guys! I get what you're saying!
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
K J Rad said:
... learn how to nvflash and have fun.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
QFT.
nvflash is not hard to get working. With a properly set up nvflash procedure and all the info on these forums, the gTab is an unbrickable as it gets.
updates
I upgraded to the vegan 7, gingerbread, how do I go back to the original stock to get the latest updates from viewsonic when update arrives?
Second that
I absolutely agree to stick with the stock ROM and play for a while. The 3588 update is very stable and usable when you change to Classic Home. I have been using it till now, side loading apps and enjoying a lot without having to worry about custom ROMS and such.
The people who are saying stay stock for the updates are glossing over the fact that the Vs updates will just make the stock UI suck a little less.
Before I bought my G tab I had never had any experience with tablets or smart phones or even android for that matter. I have flashed 4 or 5 roms onto my tablet without incident, no boot loops, no dead tab, no anything that anyone would consider a bad experience. I'm using Vegan 5.1.1 for the record, for the third time.
Read a few of the reflash to stock with nvflash threads to prepare yourself in case something does go wrong, but there is no reason to stay stock on this tablet theres to much dev goodness and too much customizationability ( is that even a word?) not to try different things.
Roxxas049 said:
The people who are saying stay stock for the updates are glossing over the fact that the Vs updates will just make the stock UI suck a little less.
Before I bought my G tab I had never had any experience with tablets or smart phones or even android for that matter. I have flashed 4 or 5 roms onto my tablet without incident, no boot loops, no dead tab, no anything that anyone would consider a bad experience. I'm using Vegan 5.1.1 for the record, for the third time.
Read a few of the reflash to stock with nvflash threads to prepare yourself in case something does go wrong, but there is no reason to stay stock on this tablet theres to much dev goodness and too much customizationability ( is that even a word?) not to try different things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I think it all boils down to what the individual wants and is willing to risk..this forum makes it easy and there are plenty of options to try just always prepare for the unexpected and dealing with the experimentals expect anything to happen!!
Who am I kidding?! There is no way I will be able to wait for the next update. I already have a ton of files set up to load on my G tablet. I will be Modding within hours of my full charge! Guess its just my nature! Thanks guys!
Butch, thanks I will be reading everything to make sure I do it right Thanks for the advice everyone!
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Closing Word...
Everyone that has contributed to this thread--
I have tried to voice the side of conservatism and restraint and
good judgement in this thread. My intention was not to hurt any
feeliings or pick on anyone or rain on anyone's parade.
But if you read what's going on in these forums, there are a lot
of folks having problems. A lot of them are in over their heads and
some have been careless and others made honest mistakes.
I know for my part, I have been working hard to try to help folks
find the tools and make the decisions to get back on track. I'm sure
I have made mistakes and my opinions are mine!
But I speak for myself in saying that even though I am semi-retired
and have more time than most -- I can't keep up this pace. And I've
heard others of the helpers say the same thing.
I also call your attention to the "TwoTapsX" thread and the fact that
the moderators are aware of the problems people are having. Roebeet
has put together a splendid ROM that many think will be the next
generation of G-Tablet software. But because of the complexity of the
mods folks already have had in the tablets, and because of the human
factors listed above -- a lot of folks have messed up their tablets.
In My Humble Opinion: Somebody has got to say that in spite of all the
"opportunities" for mods in these forums -- folks have got to start
exercising more restraint, more good judgement, more common sense in
what they do.
The devs and the folks who are helpers here can't be expected to carry the
load of keeping everyone up and running with the current problem rates. I
sometimes don't agree with the moderators, but this time I see their point.
We users have a good thing here, but if it keeps being abused......
********
Having said that, I am done here. I wish you well.
Rev
/EOT
Just an update. Within an hour of booting up I had installed CWM and Vegan. It was an easy process and now I love my g tablet!
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Welcome! Enjoy the koolaid... ;-)
Nice responce
I apologize if this subject has been covered before but my searches did not turn up anything. I am an Android newbie with a new Tab 10.1. It seems to work quite well but since the OS allows for easy customization and many people do it, I feel like I am probably missing something. What is there to be gained by moving away from stock? With so many options out there, how does one choose between them?
If there is an article or forum thread that covers this subject in language that newbies will understand, I would really appreciate being pointed in that direction. If such a document does not exist, hopefully someone can answer the questions here.
Visual mods to performance enhancemants are why people tinker with Android ad their devices.
Read as much as you can before you do anything or make any changes.
As far as which is best. That's up to you. Try them all until you find what you like.
Beezer80 said:
Visual mods to performance enhancemants are why people tinker with Android ad their devices.
Read as much as you can before you do anything or make any changes.
As far as which is best. That's up to you. Try them all until you find what you like.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree Beezer that reading is the key to android world. try as much as you like because it is very hard to brick android devices
Thanks guys, I am sure that you are right about reading as much as possible. The problem is that I am so green that I do not even know what I don't know. Any suggestions on where to start my research?
dsafety said:
Thanks guys, I am sure that you are right about reading as much as possible. The problem is that I am so green that I do not even know what I don't know. Any suggestions on where to start my research?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Galaxy Task ftw...
I have been running Task's roms since I got my tab. His current rom GalaxyTask v6.3 is as smooth it gets at least until an ICS variety is available.
Link is in my signature.
I think the thing to do is just use your Tab for a while before getting stuck into rooting it, give yourself chance to discover it's shortcomings (if any), if you feel it isn't quite up to par, look around for the most suitable fix.
I've had my Tab since August and I haven't yet felt the need to root it, I do keep looking at the threads in the dev section though, one day I'll get tempted but that's not today.
I'll try and hold out for official updates, unless I get really bored and decide to risk my warranty status.
turn to the darkside of rooting and adding a rom. at first i was nervous but after you get a feel of the roms like tasks roms.. omg there is no turning back. it is like night and day and you'll never want to go back to stock
Hello everyone I am new to Android world as of today. I've been on iPhone for the past 2 years and honestly apple has nothing compared to Android. My galaxy note is like a handheld computer... like holy s**t I'm so overwhelmed right now. But as a noobie I do have a couple questions...
Is it worth rooting and flashing a custom ics ROM (what's the best ics ROM to date) when my service provider Telus is releasing ics by early July?
Also, is it possible for me to download the official ics via ota with a rooted phone? If so how do I do that. I've read threads that sometimes rooting disables ota download.
Thanks for looking and I apologize for being a dumba**.
Sent from my SGH-I717D using xda premium
Are you new to android? Then experience your android phone as it is without rooting just yet. As you experience your phone and read some threads you will get to know if rooting is for you or not. This also will allow you to see if your phone may have issues.
If you want the OTA Telus ICS then I suggest you don't root. I don't believe you would receive the OTA unless you were stock unrooted. So my suggestion would be to hang in there for a little time.
Welcome, and congratulations on seeing the light!
The ICS roms we have are awesome so far, with only a couple random bugs that don't keep them from being daily drivers. I definitely recommend rooting and romming if you take the time to read up on everything you can about it. It's a very simple process if you take your time, and definitely worth learning.
Also, if you feel like doing the official update get familiar with how to go back to stock. When you go back to stock, it renews your warranty and also your ability to receive official firmware updates.
Personally, I think that custom roms are better than official, and once your official is released, you will be able to get a rooted version on here within a day out two at most usually. The only time my Samsung phones have ever had stock software is the first and only the first day I have them, and also if I need to do a warranty exchange
Edit: not seeing a stock package for Telus, stop I would hold on for a bit or try to work with a developer to get them what they need to set up a stock Odin package for Telus users.
Second edit: actually it looks like there is a stock package for you. I can help more with some links later, but can't right now
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
Welcome to the best phone world you can imagine and you made a wise choice to pick up the big boss aka the G note...youll love it stock or rooted and with customs roms on it....this community is the best and has some great devs also any rom you choose your gonna love their rom believe me....Ive been to here and went to the htc one x and to the international note and now im back to stay....those other phones couldnt compare to this one...the international note is brick heaven and the htc one x is just too damn small when your coming from a note lol....but if you love having your phone tweaked out like me then yes root and rom it out lol...but if all that doesnt matter than you can stay stock and still love the phone just as much....but once again wise choice on the phone and glad to have you here....
Please make yourself familiar with the phone first like everybody else suggested. I have gone through few android phones and I still have so much to learn especially when it comes to rooting and loading roms. With samsung, there's a flash counter if you care about warranty and what not even though there are ways to go around it. I have rooted mine but staying on the stock rom and waiting for the official ICS rom. GB rom is perfectly working fine for my needs.
Please read and read over and over everything before you go ahead and mess around with the rom.
mutantblack said:
Please make yourself familiar with the phone first like everybody else suggested. I have gone through few android phones and I still have so much to learn especially when it comes to rooting and loading roms. With samsung, there's a flash counter if you care about warranty and what not even though there are ways to go around it. I have rooted mine but staying on the stock rom and waiting for the official ICS rom. GB rom is perfectly working fine for my needs.
Please read and read over and over everything before you go ahead and mess around with the rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a flash counter reset, so that's basically a null point. Plus, many people have had no problem returning or exchanging with it tripped.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
Yes. I know there is. That's why I said there are ways to go around. I have rooted mine with the one roloracer posted and can use CWM to flash all different roms without even tripping the flash counter to begin with. One less step of needing to reset the counter.
I just want OP to be aware of it.
mutantblack said:
Yes. I know there is. That's why I said there are ways to go around. I have rooted mine with the one roloracer posted and can use CWM to flash all different roms without even tripping the flash counter to begin with. One less step of needing to reset the counter.
I just want OP to be aware of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, I forgot flashing from cwm doesn't up the counter. Good point.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
Wow you guys have been really helpful thank you very much
Sent from my SGH-I717D using xda premium
No problem. Here's a good guide for you to read. Just read everything you can before doing anything and you'll soon be unleashing the beast they call the galaxy note.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1586223
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
Welcome Android! The Note is my first Android phone. I also came from iPhone and don't regret the move at all. Note is the best overall phone experience I've had.
This is sort of on topic, is there a comparison thread of the different roms and what they have to offer vs. others? That kind of thread might be really helpful for new and seasoned pros.
cmunho said:
Welcome Android! The Note is my first Android phone. I also came from iPhone and don't regret the move at all. Note is the best overall phone experience I've had.
This is sort of on topic, is there a comparison thread of the different roms and what they have to offer vs. others? That kind of thread might be really helpful for new and seasoned pros.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
pretty much the only diff in roms are
CM9 & AOKP have all the bell & whistles ...such as tweaks and etc...
the others are stock based with addition add ons...either way you gonna love it...we have awesome devs in this community...as youll soon see....and glad to have you in the note community...
CM9 is Android at it's best.
Sent from my CM9‘d SGH-I717 using xda premium.
Coffinfeeder said:
CM9 is Android at it's best.
Sent from my CM9‘d SGH-I717 using xda premium.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree coffin but that im leaning toward aokp...love it lol....but both are amazing...
alewis2k12 said:
pretty much the only diff in roms are
CM9 & AOKP have all the bell & whistles ...such as tweaks and etc...
the others are stock based with addition add ons...either way you gonna love it...we have awesome devs in this community...as youll soon see....and glad to have you in the note community...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
just know that you will lose a lot of the S-pen and all Touchwiz capabilities if/when you go with any version of cm9, aokp, or aosp.
I'd stock with GB for a few weeks so you can get used to the menu interfaces and lingo surrounding Android. After that, game on!
Welcome to Android, friend.
Normally, when I first buy a phone, I like to play around with it stock for a few months before flashing the radio or switching roms etc. Just to get familiar with the phone. Since you're new to the whole Android platform, you should definitely get used to it first since there are endless possibilities you can play around with even with a stock rom.
An official ICS 4.0.3 has already been confirmed for release, why not wait for it? An official update will always be 100% safer and run a lot smoother.
This is what I recommend and I am going to be patiently waiting for the ICS 4.0 to officially be released. It's just a matter of time.
How many times have we seen a user new to android/note that root, flash, and ATTEMPT to reset the flash counter only to come to this board crying that their phone is bricked? (one or two a month?)
As others said, if you root/flash, when Ice Cream Sandwich becomes available from your carrier, you will not get it.
If you do root/flash, DON'T worry about the flash counter because if something goes wrong with reseting the flash counter, you might have a brick but most likely several hours of panic/frustration trying to get your phone working.
Jim Dead said:
How many times have we seen a user new to android/note that root, flash, and ATTEMPT to reset the flash counter only to come to this board crying that their phone is bricked? (one or two a month?)
As others said, if you root/flash, when Ice Cream Sandwich becomes available from your carrier, you will not get it.
If you do root/flash, DON'T worry about the flash counter because if something goes wrong with reseting the flash counter, you might have a brick but most likely several hours of panic/frustration trying to get your phone working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its more so a new user to xda thing as I see it. Yes, its partially a new to android thing, but if they learned how to search and read and learn everything they can, all of the info is out there to safely do anything. I had one brick way back when with my captivate, and from that point on I made sure to read as much as possible before doing anything. New users think they will just have everything handed to them and it will work perfectly, which is where they run into problems because they don't know of all the common problems and mistakes due to taking the fast track instead of actually learning about the processes.
Bottom line is they need to not only search and read, but also absorb and understand the material that is available on this site.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
welchertc said:
Its more so a new user to xda thing as I see it. Yes, its partially a new to android thing, but if they learned how to search and read and learn everything they can, all of the info is out there to safely do anything. I had one brick way back when with my captivate, and from that point on I made sure to read as much as possible before doing anything. New users think they will just have everything handed to them and it will work perfectly, which is where they run into problems because they don't know of all the common problems and mistakes due to taking the fast track instead of actually learning about the processes.
Bottom line is they need to not only search and read, but also absorb and understand the material that is available on this site.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perfectly said!
The more a user reads and researches the less cluttering threads we have and the more they learn
Which the MAJORITY of people here don't do..
Sad.. truly sad but let them brick their devices as a consequence lol
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
My advise would be to wait at least a month, do your research, stay on top of the forums, read all the important threads, etc. When I moved over from iPhone I waited about a month and even though it is soooo much easier to root an Android then jailbreaking an iPhone, its just means its that much more easier to make mistakes. Take your time, don't rush it Welcome to the dark side.
Hey all,
I am switching frm BB to android and am quite excited for it. I ordered note for at&t frm amazon.com for 200$$...seems to be a good price.
Now being completely new to the android world and to the world of rooting, flashing, etc. I would appreciate some help or opinions.
After reading various forums and threads, the first things I will do after getting my device is to root it. I will use rootgalaxynote dot com for that.
Next comes upgrading to ICS. This is where I am confused. There are so many versions, how do you guyz figure out which one is the best or the latest. It was soo easy in blackberry, there was a linear numbering system where 7.1 is better than 7.0 and so on. But in adroid, there are sooo many different names like onlyone, noteworthy, cm9, saurom...how to choose one and which one is the latest ?
Next, I have to enable free tethering to my laptop. I had this app on my BB from tether.com, but I don't know which app to use on Note and how to make it work. Any help will be highly appreciated.
Lastly, it would be gr8 if you could let me know what more to do to make my note more useful and efficient with good signal strength and battery life. Also recommendations for the must-have apps would be great.
Thank you.
2bnoted said:
Hey all,
I am switching frm BB to android and am quite excited for it. I ordered note for at&t frm amazon.com for 200$$...seems to be a good price.
Now being completely new to the android world and to the world of rooting, flashing, etc. I would appreciate some help or opinions.
After reading various forums and threads, the first things I will do after getting my device is to root it. I will use rootgalaxynote dot com for that.
Next comes upgrading to ICS. This is where I am confused. There are so many versions, how do you guyz figure out which one is the best or the latest. It was soo easy in blackberry, there was a linear numbering system where 7.1 is better than 7.0 and so on. But in adroid, there are sooo many different names like onlyone, noteworthy, cm9, saurom...how to choose one and which one is the latest ?
Next, I have to enable free tethering to my laptop. I had this app on my BB from tether.com, but I don't know which app to use on Note and how to make it work. Any help will be highly appreciated.
Lastly, it would be gr8 if you could let me know what more to do to make my note more useful and efficient with good signal strength and battery life. Also recommendations for the must-have apps would be great.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off...Welcome.
All of the names you listed are ROMs. They all run on the latest ICS leak 4.0.4. But since you're new to android, Id recommend stock ICS.
The latest ICS leak is called UCLE2. If you want to try it out stock ICS first before flashing roms, you need to download the ICS UCLE2 leaked "tar" file. http://www.ponack.net/designgears/leaks/SGH-I717UCLE2_74A55FA71D15964F9EC9E9489B34DE4E.exe
Be sure to download this file from your computer, not your phone.
I ffound some instructions on how To do it. Make sure you READ it atleast 5 times before actually doing it. ALSO, Be sure to have all the files you need before attempting. If you get confused, search it up on XDA...as most people have already posted it. If not, don't hesitate to ask.
http://androidforums.com/samsung-ga...-i-finally-did-sgh-i717ucle2-ics-4-0-4-a.html
-Once you go NOTE, you'd say 4 inches a Joke
-iOS = inspiring Outdated Software
i'll just copy/paste this from another thread as it applies here.
jpoirier587 said:
I would have to advise waiting a while.
1. Keep in mind what it means to root a phone. You are giving yourself the highest access and control priveleges on your devise and remaining at that privelage level from here on out. In the IT world this is actually a huge nono for security. Look at what you are downloading. What does the app want for permissions? Why does a live wallpaper need full network access ? Why does it need to be able to keep the phone from sleeping? Malware for android is on the rise but a rooted phone is by far the most vulnerable. With android, the security of our devises rests on us not being brain dead like iFail users. In return we get nearly unlimited potential on what can be ran on our phones.
2. People forget that this is xda DEVELOPERS. If you are expecting a 100% polished and refined product without hickups here and there then you are in the wrong place. Yes the roms are fantastic. We have some real talent working on the galaxy note but don't expect the moon.
3. Don't start trying to root and flash until you are comfortable with the terminology that gets tossed around. If you don't know what CWM stands for then you haven't studied enough. Guides to accomplish flashing and rooting exist but trying to follow along with no concept of what is going on can lead to a lot of frustration if not disaster. If you don't understand why you need to do something, don't do it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know you're eager but enjoy your stock rom for a while. also you may not appreciate the responses you will get asking these most basic of questions. all of them have answers easily available in these subforums either by browsing or the search function. those questions have been answered 1000+ times so dont be suprised when no one jumps to give you the answers. this is xda DEVELOPERS (i.e. advanced users) not Noobs 'r Us. have fun learning as we all did.
I would just like to write a big thank you to all, for all the information on the Z Ultra.
I haven't posted ( well at all ) as I do a lot of research to help with my problems and info to either root or upgrade which I have done from 4.4.3 to now 4.4.4 with the stock rom ( rooted )
From what I have been reading in a lot of the development forums, I admire you guys for the amount of repeated questions about what you do. I:E Roms, kernals,etc. Can I run this etc etc and can you fix this because my phone won't run it.. etc etc when someone has already asked the same question a million times.
I did have a galaxy s2 which I had rooted and changed roms many of times, so because of you all I can now do The Z Ultra.
Big thanks to NUT, chemup, DOGG and everybody else for their input.
Thanks guys... Love ya work
ps. Couldn't put this into the developers forums and thank the individual developers for the work they have done as I have been a naughty boy and not posted enough
Cheers and keep up the great work guys..
Yeah I wanted to post a similar reply for thanks to the community but saw your post and figure I post in your thread . I got bored at work a week ago and decided to try out a new rom and went through a bunch of threads, and boy was it worth it in the end. I figure I try the Slim Kat 6 stable and all I can say WOW!
I have only charged my phone for the second time in about 7 days. That is with decent amount of usage of work email, Google hangouts, and just messing with the phone in general. Great work on this awesome device.
Only confusing part is, that I may have missed it in the many threads, to use the custom recoveries you have to boot the phone and wait for the purple notification light to come and then press up or down on the volume button.
But awesome stuff here and I really recommend Slim Kat. I went from charging my phone every day to what appears to be every 3 days. Also to change the screen DPI to something near 300 since the stock DPI is a tad too low IMO.