Related
We need to bug HTC to get what the people want. To do so, you can tweet them and email. Remember, be professional!
Twitter: @HTC and @HTCDev
Send them both tweets about releasing the source for the Amaze.
I tweeted Faux and he said this to me:
https://twitter.com/faux123/status/205121987000016896
Also, E-Mail them.
http://htcdev.com/contact
Tell them why we want it and how it will benefit us AND them.
Here is what I wrote:
HTC has made a promise to help to development community by releasing the source code as well as unlocking the bootloader for their devices. However, the TI WLAN source code has been withheld from the community. This slows development and can even cease development for the device completely. Without the source code, developers will have to develop blindly and hoping not to break anything in the process. The Amaze 4G has great potential due to his hardware and power that it harnesses. Android is an Open Source OS, but HTC is sounding more like Apple, holding their source from the public. People purchased the device to experience the "Real Feel" of Android by customizing it, installing Custom ROMs, tweaking it, etc. Without the WLAN source code, we, as a community, have starting to lose faith in HTC and some of us have even pledged to never purchase an HTC device again due to HTC's policies. The community will like for HTC to rethink their strategy and be "Open" with the community. The best form of advertisement is by "The Word-of-Mouth". When our community, the tech savvy and the owners of a smartphone, see how HTC listens to their customers requests, they will become more profitable and retain/gain new and loyal customers.
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Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can lead to more business and brand loyalty.
hasoon2000 said:
We need to bug HTC to get what the people want. To do so, you can tweet them and email. Remember, be professional!
Twitter: @HTC and @HTCDev
Send them both tweets about releasing the source for the Amaze.
I tweeted Faux and he said this to me:
https://twitter.com/faux123/status/205121987000016896
Also, E-Mail them.
http://htcdev.com/contact
Tell them why we want it and how it will benefit us AND them.
Here is what I wrote:
Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can leave to more business and brand loyalty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will do
Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G using XDA
ı did it
HTC responded to me
Dear Odai,
I understand you would like to have certain source codes like the WLAN drivers to the development community. I realize that this information is of great importance to you. The only source code we have available is the full source code available on the HTC Developer website at http://htcdev.com. We do not currently have an option to send individual parts of the source code separately. Any parts of the kernel source code that are not included in the released source code on the website should be considered propriety and not available for release. Please visit http://htcdev.com/contact to leave comments about this feature. I thank you for sending your email to HTC today.
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My response to that
Since HTC is committed to helping the development community, hence HTCDev has been started, there have been a fair share of issues that is being withheld from us. There has been a lack of support for certain devices since new flagship phones have been released. For example, the HTC Amaze 4G is a device with great hardware, but HTC has not given us full support due to the face of the HTC One series being released. As a business student, I understand what is being done. HTC would like their new flagship phones to sell and give less support to older devices. However, we are being left out and since this is my first non-Nokia device, I feel betrayed by HTC already. I purchased the Amaze 4G due to its hardware and I know it can unleash its true potential, only with the help of HTC. However, this is not the case. There are devices with over 10 custom made kernels and how many does the Amaze have? Only one and that is for Gingerbread and it has slight modifications since the full source has not be released. This is a huge setback to us users. We have barely any type of custom ROMs. We have not AOSP (Android Open Source Project) ROMs since we need the full kernel source to even make a kernel that is compatible with AOSP ROMs.
The Sensation development is sky high booming with plenty of developers. As a developer for the HTC Amaze 4G, looking at the Sensation development is heart breaking. The Amaze is truly better, but yet has no support from those who created it. It is like leaving a baby in the street. You do not do that.
HTC needs to realize for those who purchase their devices and would like to retain loyalty to HTC, HTC needs to treat their customers back as well. Without us, HTC is nothing.
As I stated earlier, this is my first Non-Nokia device and I already feel betrayed by HTC. If HTC cannot fix their act and be committed to those purchase their devices, they will lose customers significantly.
There should be a way to release the full source to us HTC Amaze 4G owners by talking to other companies that have their hardware in the Amaze. If that cannot be done, this will be my first and last HTC device ever.
So do what you can and stay committed to your program for us HTC users. Without your support, we feel betrayed since the company is not living up to their word. For us, it is hypocrisy while you guys believe it is business. The best business is customer support. If customers are not given what they have been truly promised, HTC might as well just shut down or reallocate to another industry. Just my opinions and my response.
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Just in case anyone needs some ideas on what to write. As Hasoon has said, don't copy and paste, make it legit!
As I hope others before me have sent an email to you regarding the same topic, I as well am writing to you in regards to the TI WLAN source code for the amaze that you have yet to release. I have been loyal to the HTC brand since the touch, and felt that your move to the development communities has been terrific, and have become quite involved with the development community myself, and look forward to help developing the amaze to its full potential and to have full freedom over the device. I know that there has been at least one statement released already regarding the WLAN driver's release, and that it is proprietary, and if that is the case, I'd like to get some more information regarding that statement, if/when you plan on ever releasing it, and why it is proprietary to begin with. There are many other devices out there that HTC has been very co-operative with, but fail to see why with the Amaze, a device that the way I see it is still extremely capable yet now not the hot phone to have, especially with your ONE line out, so the release of the driver would make sense to me, but withholding the code now does not. I hope this email along with others I hope are being sent regarding the same issue will persuade HTC to be as open as possible with the developers out there and show us that HTC still stands by its position to be a 'developer friendly' company.
The TI drivers source code belongs to Texas Instruments. HTC only has license to use it. TI is more of the root of problems. This kind of problems have been existing in linux community for life. Developers have to reverse engineering most of the drivers.
Should we maybe write TI about it instead?
JonathanBarca10 said:
Should we maybe write TI about it instead?
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We can do both. We have to pressure both companies.
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
Does anybody know what TIs history is for something like this?
this is what i got back
Dear Xavier Veras,
Hello, Xavier, and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!
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EclipzeRemix said:
this is what i got back
Dear Xavier Veras,
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You can call bs on that.
One X source code is released.
Sensation Source code is released. ---> They got ICS 5 days after us
One V source code is released.
Respond back to them and tell them that. They are lying to the customers. How did other devices get it so quick when they say ICS is new?
You have to take the initiative.
hasoon2000 said:
You can call bs on that.
One X source code is released.
Sensation Source code is released. ---> They got ICS 5 days after us
One V source code is released.
Respond back to them and tell them that. They are lying to the customers. How did other devices get it so quick when they say ICS is new?
You have to take the initiative.
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I replied this
That is false, the HTC One X,S, and V all got there kernel source, so did the HTC Sensation with Sense 3.6, and we got our update 5 days apart. Not only that but the Amaze is always let down with everything, we still dont have a WiFi source either. Tell HTC to get their act straight because I'm very likely to but another phone from another company soon. We need this source, I paid 500 dollars for a phone that I don't completely own because of the missing source. Thank you for your time but something has to be done
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
EclipzeRemix said:
I replied this
That is false, the HTC One X,S, and V all got there kernel source, so did the HTC Sensation with Sense 3.6, and we got our update 5 days apart. Not only that but the Amaze is always let down with everything, we still dont have a WiFi source either. Tell HTC to get their act straight because I'm very likely to but another phone from another company soon. We need this source, I paid 500 dollars for a phone that I don't completely own because of the missing source. Thank you for your time but something has to be done
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
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You want to call them out. You have to tell them basically you know your facts and you aren't stupid. Companies think customers are stupid (for the most part, they are right.) But you do have to tell them you know your stuff. I'm still waiting for them to respond to my second response.
EDIT: Apparently I overlooked this and thought it was an automated message.
They said
I appreciate you getting back with us; and I thank you for your input concerning the availability of the kernel source codes for our Android devices. I hope you have a nice day.
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My response right now was
I would like a response to what I have said. HTC has released source codes for the One X, One V, Sensation BUT not the Amaze. The Sensation has received the ICS update 5 days before the Amaze and they have their source code released. You totally blew off my last response and reasons like this is why I am disappointed with HTC. I am not surprised that HTC is not a BBB accredited business. With the way they handle customers, they really should shut down. Take care of customers and then they will take care of you. You guys apparently don't believe in that and it shows.
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Just read this. Apparently HTC releases source codes between 90 - 120 days
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1682917
I got my reply,
Dear Andy,
Thank you for contacting HTC Andy! I apologize that we do not have any information on when/if that driver will be released. The best place to look for updates on that information would be the htcdev.com website or Facebook/Twitter. Thank you for being a loyal HTC customer. We appreciate your commitment. I hope that you have a great day!
So basically I'm emailing my cousin, or uncle, because I would've gotten the same reply from them! What a joke, time to turn it up a notch.
edit: reply
I feel as if my original question was not answered, I'm contacting the company regarding an issue about their product, and felt as though I was getting a reply from a third party or someone unfamiliar with their own products. I'm looking for answers for the Amaze TI WLAN driver, and am requesting the release, or the date of release for that driver. Other phones in your product lineup have had their full source codes released, phones released before and after the Amaze, and in the case of the sensation, mere days after receiving its ICS update. I'm sure there is somebody I could either write or speak with that would be able to answer my question, I, along with many others in the development community feel it would be in HTC's best interests to release the driver. You would be helping those in the development community fully explore their devices, and in turn improve your company image as a top phone manufacturer and developer friendly company.
HTC's reply:
Thank you for getting back in touch with me Andy. I’m sorry that there was some confusion in our last email. As I stated before, we do not have any information on if or when the drivers will be released. Proprietary drivers are created by HTC for use on our phones and we are not by law, required to release the drivers. The open source codes are on the htcdev.com website but any drivers created by HTC, are property of HTC and will be released if we choose. HTC is committed to giving their customers the best experience possible so your concerns and requests have been noted. I apologize that we do not have any further information on if/when the drivers will be released but please check for updates on the htcdev.com website and/or Facebook and/or Twitter. I thank you for being a loyal HTC customer and I hope that you have a great day!
Booooooo
Done - the minute I read your post, Thanks
---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------
HTC's reply:
Thank you for getting back in touch with me Andy. I’m sorry that there was some confusion in our last email. As I stated before, we do not have any information on if or when the drivers will be released. Proprietary drivers are created by HTC for use on our phones and we are not by law, required to release the drivers. The open source codes are on the htcdev.com website but any drivers created by HTC, are property of HTC and will be released if we choose. HTC is committed to giving their customers the best experience possible so your concerns and requests have been noted. I apologize that we do not have any further information on if/when the drivers will be released but please check for updates on the htcdev.com website and/or Facebook and/or Twitter. I thank you for being a loyal HTC customer and I hope that you have a great day!
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Maybe they ripped off some other company's/persons source to create the Amaze - so cannot release it jk
The responded to my message.
I can definitely understand how the previous agent’s answer would make you upset. I’ll be glad to help you, Odai. By law, all that we are required to release is the kernel source code. HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC, as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
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My response
Samuel, thank you for responding. Danielle blew off my message and that is not great customer service. However, I see conflicting interests from messages I have been told as well as other. Some of the users have been told
"HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community."
Also, "Hello, (name omitted), and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!"
Why are the messages all conflicting? Some say it is not required, some say you have to wait 90 - 120 days when devices, like the Sensation, received the source code within 2 weeks of the ICS release. The management is either terrible or the staff is not properly trained.
Do you see why we are not happy with HTC? High Tech Computers is what HTC stands for, correct? HTC is also looking to help out the development community, correct? The only company that TRULY believes in the development community is Samsung. They acknowledged the work at XDA-Developers.com and they see how important it is to get in touch with those who love to customize their devices. Without releasing the source code to use so we can take advantage of OUR devices, you'll end up with unsatisfied customers and you will lose loyal customers. As a first time owner of an HTC device, I am pretty mad that I can't truly take advantage of it. I worked for T-Mobile for a few years and sold many HTC and Samsung phones. I always saw the Samsung owners are able to have full and true control of their devices. It is not the same however, with HTC.
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Remember folks! TAKE INITIATIVE! CALL THEM OUT! TELL THEM WHAT OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING! Be a man! lol
one more try:
There was no confusion with your first reply, I understand that HTC has no legal mandate to release anything it doesen't need to, so again, no confusion. What I am confused about is the reason the amaze driver has been held back, when other devices have had their full source codes released, and still there was no reason given as to why the WLAN driver can not be released. Other phone compaines out there like samsung seem to co-operate with developers better then HTC does, so its a shame that I can't get an answer for a simple question. And the reason provided, 'because we don't have to' isn't a good one, I'm sure there's a reason why, someone in the company must know something relating to this issue, and those in the development community are left in the dark on the topic. So no, there is no confusion regarding this topic, I fully understand HTC's stance on what is theirs and what is required by law, but considering your desire to be involved with development with HTCDEV.com, what I don't understand is why I can't get an answer that actually answers my question, a question directly relating to development. As you have said in the last reply I recieved, 'your concerns and requests have been noted', this lack of communication and understanding has also been noted by myself, and it will directly influence me on my next phone purchase.
Can I say progress?
Dear Odai,
Thanks for getting back to me, Odai. I’m honestly not sure why there is conflicting information. The first email that you quoted contains the correct information. The time frame that we generally release new kernels is 90 to 120 days. Though I don’t know why the Sensation’s source code was available so soon, there’s no reason I can see why the Amaze’s wouldn’t be released within the 90 to 120 time frame previously mentioned. Since the Amaze 4G is part of the bootloader unlock program, the latest source code will be posted to htcdev.com when available. Due to the inconsistency of the responses you’ve seen, I can definitely understand why you and others would be so unhappy. Personally, I’m going to do what I can to make sure this addressed and prevent conflicting and misinformation in the future. I agree with you that members of the developer community have the right to this information and only with that can they push their devices to the limit. If there’s anything else I can do for you, please let me know. Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and for being an HTC customer.
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My response
Samuel, I am glad that you have acknowledged the issues and the inconsistency in the messages we are given. I commend you for that.
As a Recognized Developer on XDA-Developers, as well as speaking on behalf of the Amaze 4G community, we would like HTC to work a deal with us. We need the source code, the full source code I should say, to help our development for the Amaze.
Reasons are as follows:
1. It will retain customer loyalty.
2. It will increase in sales/customer database.
3. Receiving a better name for the company.
I will explain how it will for each reason.
1. As I have stated, it will retain customer loyalty. When customers see the company taking care of them and fully addressing their issues, customers will be happy, even if the problem is not fixed. They see HTC cares and tries to do their best. HTC has well built all around devices and that is why customers continue purchasing HTC devices.
2. The sales number will increase. It may be a slight amount, but when customers enjoy their phones, they will continue purchasing the devices in the future. When I show my friends what my phone can do, it blows their mind. I have friends who purchase the phone I have because I show them what it can do and what their phones cannot do. Remember, the best advertisement is word-of-mouth.
3. A company should be a people company. HTC shows that they care about the development community by opening HTCDev. That is wonderful to see someone has been paying attention to us. Samsung does promotions specifically for XDA-Developers. They have truly recognized our community and they even hired a developer! HTC should see how big the customer base of XDA-Developers, CyanogenMod, RootzWiki and many other development websites/forums. When they show true interest in us, we will defend the company if someone speaks bad about it, etc.
All the reasons tie in with one another. Samuel, I believe you should pass our conversation along to the higher management. They should not blow our community off.
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Are you guys taking notes??
Well i started a thread about how we need source and everyones favorite mod sgt.slaughter came in and broke up the keyboard warrior fest and shed some light on us and told us to all start asking about source using the example of the folks in the 3d forums who teamed up to get a bootloader unlock which while its kinda half assed, at least they did something.
Many users interested in the development on HTC devices have recently been becoming more and more frustrated with HTC's policy on kernel source code releases. While other companys such as Samsung release their kernel source the same day as a phone is released or an update is pushed to a device, HTC follows a different path. HTC while is supporting development via their bootloader unlocking tools, which we are thankful for, they seem to not care when it comes to how long after an update is pushed or a phone is released that it takes them to release their source code. By doing this they are hindering development on their own devices and tempting developers to leave HTC and move on to Samsung due to the greater support for developers of samsung devices.
The GPL states that the source must be released within 14 of a request of such code. However, it doesn't state a grace period or a timeline for which it has to be released. HTC says that "HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days" (HTCDEV) and in this time they claim that they are still complying with the rules and regulations of the GPL v2.0. This wait is far too long however because after this time and they finally release the source code it may be out of date by 2 maybe 3 updates. This hinders the development on said devices because once a phone is updated, the only source they have to work with is outdated and may be either very hard to work into the new update or even impossible to use on the new software.
Others have alread tried to change the ways of HTC in the past with no success. The below quoted info is from the creator of gpl-violations.org (Harald Welte) and explains his attempts to alter HTC's policy with no success:
"There have been various reports and blog posts about HTC again committing copyright infringement by not fulfilling the GPLv2 license conditions in their latest Android phone, the G2.
While at this point I haven't studied the situation enough in order to confirm or deny any actual violations, let me state this: The number of GPL Violation reports/allegations that we receive at gpl-violations.org on HTC by far outnumber the reports that we have ever received about any other case or company.
In addition, HTC seems to have had a long trail of problems with GPL compliance in their devices. Ever since they have started to ship Android devices containing the Linux kernel, licensed under GPLv2+, we have received those reports.
The reason I have never taken any legal action is merely a result of the fact that HTC seems to first introduce their new devices in the US, then at some point release the corresponding source code before shipping those devices into Europe and Germany. So by the time the devices are sold over here, the legal issues appear to have been resolved before.
Nonetheless, I think it is outrageous for a company of this size and significance in the market to consistently commit copyright violation (or at least walk borderline with it) and thus mistreat the very copyright holders that have created the operating system kernel they use in their devices. The linux kernel developers and the Free Software community as a whole deserve fair treatment.
Also, the competitors of HTC deserve fair treatment: Samsung, e.g. is very forthcoming with their Android phone source code releases. If I was them and would see HTC to fail to comply with the GPL, I would consider filing a unfair competition lawsuit..." (Harald Welte)
This is a follow up post on his blog where he explains more:
"The Taiwanese smart phone maker HTC is widely known to be delaying its Linux kernel source code releases of their Android products. Initially, this has been described to to the requirement for source code review, and making sure that no proprietary portions are ending up in the release.
While the point is sort-of moot from the beginning (there should be no proprietary portions inside the Linux kernel for a product that wants to avoid entering any legal grey zone in the first place), I was willing to accept/tolerate it for some time.
At one point more than one year ago, gpl-violations.org actually had the opportunity to speak in person to senior HTC staff about this. I made it very clear that this delay is not acceptable, and that they should quickly fix their processes in order to make sure they reduce that delay, eventually down to zero.
Recently, I received news that the opposite is happening. HTC still has the same delays, and they are now actually claiming that even a 120 days delay is in compliance with the license.
I do think neither the paying HTC customers, nor tha Free Software community as a whole have to tolerate those delays. It is true that the GPLv2 doesn't list a deadline until when the source code has to be provided, but it is at the same also very clear what the license wants: To enable people to study the program source code. Especially in todays rapid smart phone product cycles, 120 days is a very long time.
So I hereby declare my patience has ended here. I am determined to bring those outrageous delays to an end. This will be one of my new year resolutions for 2012: Use whatever means possible to make HTC understand that this is not how you can treat Free Software, the community, its customers, the GPL and in the end, copyright itself." (Harald Welte)
The goal of this petition is not to bring down HTC but rather to have them change their ways when it comes to releasing source code. We would like to see source the same day as updates and phone releases so that developers can make use of this code; play with it, learn from it, and promote future development on HTC devices.
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Anyway lets get to the point. Below there is links to their email, twitter, facebook, etc and you guys message them and post what you said below and i will add it to the op here so others can use that message.
also, as sgt.slaughter said, DONT ASK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SOURCE. We need to stick to the point here. Don't threaten them or rage at them.
Spread this to other HTC Device forums that aren't getting source if you know of any, the more people we get to the better.
Mods i will update this as often as possible if people actually follow it so perhaps a temp sticky?
Also don't flood this with a bunch of "I won't buy HTC again" talk. It will just make this harder.
Petition Link
Link: http://www.change.org/petitions/htc-htc-needs-to-speed-up-kernel-source-releases?share_id=sLjvObpqne
Personal Contacts [thanks sgt.slaughter]
[email protected]; Senior Director Enterprise Business Unit Americas
[email protected]; Chairman
[email protected]; Chief Marketing Officer, HTC Corporation
[email protected]; Senior Public Relations Manager at HTC 425-679-5328
[email protected]; COO of HTC
[email protected]; Board Member of HTC
[email protected]; CEO
[email protected]; VP HTC
[email protected]; Chief Innovation Officer
Brent Groome, Chief Executive-Customer Operations, at 843-369-8393 or [email protected]
To email all of them at once, copy and paste this:
PHP:
[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected]
HTC
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htc
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/HTC
Email: http://www.htc.com/us/support/email-support
HTCDEV
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Facebook: Don't think they have one
Email: http://www.htcdev.com/contact
HTC USA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HTCUSA
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/htcusa
Updates:
Today 8/9/12 i received an email back from HTC giving me the same B.S. they give everyone about the 90 days. Heres the email.
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week, Mike.
If this answers your comment or question, please click here to complete the process.
To submit another comment, please click here.
Sincerely,
The HTCDev Team
--------------------------- then i sent this
No where in the GPL does it state that you guys have 90 days to release the source code nor does it give you a grace period. you guys have the code already all that has to be done is a simple upload. samsung does it, motorola does it, why can't HTC release their code within a few days of an update? a petition is being started on xda-developers where there is a lot of people that feel the same way and it will only get bigger. you guys will be hearing a lot from us soon.
--------------------------------their reply
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for your reply. Your feedback has been forwarded to the appropriate department for documentation. I hope you enjoy your week!
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Quotes from you guys:
Racer Of All said:
Hello and thank you for writing in.
Since we are discussing the Linux Kernel, I will refer to version 2 of
the GPL. GPLv2 lays out the terms under which a party can distribute a
work in "object code or executable form" in section 3. The party in
question must do so in one of three ways, but for commercial entities
such as HTC only the first two are relevant: Accompany the binary with
the source (section 3.a), or accompany the binary with a written offer
to provide the source (section 3.b).
Complying with section 3 via subsection (a) is the fastest, safest and
easiest way since section 3 compliance is achieved immediately; you get
the binary and the source together. But according to your description
HTC has opted for section 3.b instead. It is true that section 3.b
doesn't spell out exactly how fast the offer for the corresponding
source code must be deal with, but note that it doesn't explicitly state
a grace-period either. So in order to be in compliance with distribution
under section 3.b, a timely response would be best.
I hope this answer is of help. If you have further questions, please
feel free to write back.
--
I am not a lawyer, the above is not legal advice
* *Regards, Your Name Here
Above is in reference to this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29932331&postcount=27
A whole bunch or useful information thanks to Racer of All :http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29940548&postcount=9
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
premo15 said:
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Original Post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29951917&postcount=13
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been posting this on their facebook walls fee free to use it.
----------------------------
HTC when are you going to follow the GPL and stop using the 90 day excuse? No where does the GPL state that you have 90 days to release it nor does it give a grace period. Use samsung as an example. They release their source code within a few hours of an update if not prior to one. Why can't you do the same? All that your hesitation causes is frustration among the developer community and hinder development for your devices. We know you take some ideas from us because you have decided to swap the recent apps key and use it as a menu which the developers have done on the evo lte within a week of the phones release. We scratch your back, you scratch ours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In order to get the sweeping changes we want (to get source released as soon as device is dropped like samsung does) we will need more than our EVO 4G LTE users.
We need all HTC users behind this. Anyway we can get this up on their sections of the forum as well?
true, perhaps submit this to the xda portal and then maybe expand to other sites such as engadget? i already started spreading it to themikmik but only in the evo lte section so far. add me on google talk and we will collaborate. ill send my email via pm
I posted a section on android forums where I am a guide. I'll spread the word there.
I'll hit you up tomorrow
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
ive sent messages to rootzwiki, themikmik, and xda portal to see if they will write about this and help spread the word. for now im going to bed since its 2a.m.
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
Rxpert said:
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will try to get this done this afternoon when I come home from work.
I passed the word on to android central.
nice job!
need to toss in examples of how HTC is failing compared to the other manufacturers in terms of time they release source...cite Samsung and Motorola and time of OTA released to devices, and then time they released their source code...Show HTC that they are the ONLY one's playing this 90day rule bs crap and its hurting the development community greatly, in turn causing people to leave...
I will be sending emails to the aforementioned news sources as well as my tech friends. It really is a shame companies like HTC can get away with violating the GPL like this. If only we could convince a person with copyright on part of the Linux kernel to join our ranks we could win overnight
Oh in addition to the above email I send them I also found another one that was between a head dev of red hat Linux, I'll see if I can dig it up.
EDIT: Found it, post by Matthew Garrett, developer of red hat linux posted the next couple of entries. They are very interesting reads about the entire situation:
HTC is Willfully Violating the GPL by Matthew Garrett:
As has been discussed before, HTC have a somewhat "interesting" interpretation of the GPL that allows them to claim they don't need to provide source code until between 90 and 120 days after the release of binaries. It's probably noteworthy that the FSF (who, you know, wrote the license and all) disagree with this interpretation, as do the kernel copyright holders (who, you know, wrote the code that the license covers) I've talked to about it. Anyway, after a pile of screaming and shouting from all sides HTC have tended to release their source code in a timely manner. So things seemed better.
HTC released the Thunderbolt last week and we're back to the 90-120 day song and dance. It's probably worth remembering that by behaving in this way HTC gain a competitive advantage over any vendors who obey the terms of their license - HTC can incorporate improvements made by others without releasing their own until through a significant portion of the lifecycle of their phone.
As far as I'm concerned, every single Thunderbolt sold so far embodies a copyright infringement. Wilfully engaging in copyright infringement for commercial benefit is typically frowned upon by courts, especially if by doing so a foreign company is gaining commercial advantage over a domestic one. If you think Microsoft's patent assault on Android is a problem, just imagine what they could do if they hired one significant Linux kernel developer and used their copyrights to attack the overwhelming majority of Android vendors who fail to comply with the GPL. It probably wouldn't be industry ending (companies would merely have improve their compliance procedures) but it'd do a huge deal of damage in the short term. It's insane for companies to behave this way. Don't reward them by giving them your money.
I'll be talking about this at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit next month, along with an update on my study of the compliance of Android tablets. I'm hoping that there'll be further developments after that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These two entries are also by Matthew Garrett but they're more a generalized point of view about GPL violations in general and why it's an incentive to do so:
The economic incentive to violate the GPL
The ongoing fight against GPL enforcement
Also let me make this clear (because I've seen people bring this up before): people here aren't complaining that without source we can't do anything or that our devs REQUIRE it. The point is that the Linux kernel is licensed under the GPL and that our devs SHOULDN'T NEED to work without it. It's free open sourced code. We don't care for the "but HTC has hundreds of phones to support please give them [email protected]!" argument either. The GPL is pretty clear, you can use anything licensed under it but if you release a commercial product with it, source MUST be released and source code is easier to distribute than the binary they built using it. It's a non-issue for them.
Sorry for the massive edit. I just love open source software and the advantages it provides for technology and by proxy -- society. I mean, open source is literally everywhere and I can't stand companies with big bucks being able to "buy" their way out of what open source stands for. If you use something licensed under the GPL you MUST provide source. You don't have a day, you don't have a week. You have to either release it alongside the binary or provide it upon request.
I'm done
Sent from my Nexus 7
Glad to wake up and see this thread!
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Give me source or give me death!!
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
premo15 said:
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
fachadick said:
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
sgt. slaughter said:
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
fachadick said:
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I recall thats how we took the bootloader unlock to them too...Samsung allows unlocking, and HTC used to not be encrypted at least....then they encrypted and all hell broke loose, and their facebook was completely blowing up for weeks straight....so much that they couldnt' manage all the negative posts on there and eventually released a comment on it and changed their ways...
working on starting a petition now. will update the op with it shortly.
EDIT: still working on it. i set one up but i think it has to be approved first before being put on their site. will update as soon as possible
premo15 said:
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
got that covered, check the op. has direct contacts now
My canned response from HTC DEV
:Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week
In 2012 Motorola announced she would upgrade our devices, Atrix and Photon, to Ice Cream Sandwich in Q3. As you all know, they have changed their stance, leaving us with an outdated version of Android to play with. Our devices can easily run even the last version of Android, Jelly Bean, so why the update was canceled for us?
With the Update My Moto! campaign, we are asking for a leak of what was been done before they canceled the update or a compatible Tegra 2 kernel for Ice Cream Sandwich and Jelly Bean. With these files, XDA developers can fix the problems themselves, while Motorola can make up for this mistake they made.
You can help us to achieve that. Share this campaign in your blog, social network, show it to your friends or file a BBB complaint. Let's grab Motorola's attention!
ACCESS THE WEBSITE
Share the campaign
Helping the campaign is pretty easy. If you spread the campaign, you are helping already!
Share on Twitter
Share on Facebook
Share on Google Plus
Share on Digg
Share on Reddit
Share on Pinterest
If you have a personal blog, you can also write about the campaign and ask your readers to help to share it. Even if they don't have an Atrix or a Photon, they might share and help us with the campaign
Sharing with images
You can save the images bellow and share on Facebook, Google Plus and other social networks or blogs, just don't forget to share the campaign's link too!
http://i50.tinypic.com/2it38zt.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t249/rhada-mg/UpdateMyMoto-Trial-2.png
http://ubuntucdn.ubuntubrsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/updatemymoto.jpg
I will add more when we got them. If you want to add one here, just leave a message with the link for the image
Use our signature!
You can also use the Update My Moto signature, to help us spread the word on XDA Developers and other forums! You just have to copy and paste the code bellow:
[URL ="http://www.updatemymoto.com/"][ CENTER][ IMG]http://ubuntucdn.ubuntubrsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/updatemymoto.jpg[ /IMG][ /CENTER][ /URL]
Just take the spaces out. It looks nice, don't worry
In the wild
What blogs and websites wrote about this campaign so far?
Ubuntu-BR-SC: Insatisfeitos com a Motorola, usuários criam a campanha "Update My Moto";
Diário do Android: Motorola confirma o que já se sabia: o Atrix não receberá o Android 4.0 oficialmente;
Android Authority: Google, Motorola urged to leak Ice Cream Sandwich / Jelly Bean internal ROMs for Atrix 4G, Photon;
BR-Linux: usuários iniciam campanha para que Motorola mantenha compromisso de atualização do Android;
Talk Android: Developer starts ‘Update My Moto!’ campaign in effort to obtain Tegra 2 ICS drivers for Atrix 4G and Photon 4G;
Android Spin: Update My Moto!!!;
Android TV: Verärgerte Motorola-Kunden starten Online-Petition für Quellcode-Freigabe;
Geek On: Walka o Atrixa jeszcze nie została zakończona;
Android Headlines: Update my Moto! Google, and Motorola urged to “leak” internal ICS/Jelly Bean ROMs;
MIUI ROM: On they Facebook page;
Epinter's CM10 website;
Atrix Forums: Update My Moto - A Social Campaign to Bring us ICS;
Phandroid: Apple vs Samsung Jury Foreman Speaks Out, Moto RAZR i Smokes RAZR M In Battery Life, and More;
CNET: Android users outraged over Motorola's broken promise;
Gemind: Gemcast #049.
Help us to get it in the wild
You can help us to get the campaign in the wild. Do you know someone with a large followers count at Twitter? Ask him to RT the campaign! A friend of yours is a writer at a big website? Ask him to cover the campaign! You have 2 minutes free? Send a e-mail to big websites, asking them to talk about the campaign!
Gizmodo: tipbox [at] gizmodo [dot] com
Gizmodo Brasil: http://www.gizmodo.com.br/mande-sua-dica/
Techcrunch: tips [at] techcrunch [dot] com
The Next Web: http://thenextweb.com/tips/
OMG! Ubuntu!: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/tip/
Android Police: http://www.androidpolice.com/contact/
Android and Me: http://androidandme.com/contact/
Campaign Partners
You should also take a look at the Support My Moto campaign. While we are focusing on a viral and social approach, they are going for a BBB one, that could work as well.
Take a look there. Won't hurt you to file a complaint and i promise it will only take you about 2 minutes of your day
Contact details
You can reach me at this e-mail: julianfernandes AT ubuntu DOT com
You can also find me on Twitter and at our Ubuntu LoCo Team's blog, Ubuntu-BR-SC.
Thanks and credits
I wanna thank TheOnePom for paying for our domain name, the great guys at RamNode for offering us this great VPS for such a low price, Fishmoose for the campaign's name and, off course, everyone who gave suggestions, ideas and helped me out on the original thread!
UPDATE
Added some websites to the list
If you are a website owner and want to write about the campaign (or already did), let me know please
appreciate you doing this.
I hope you and the "support my moto campaign" work together since it sounds like you both share similar goals.
I actually like your campaign of "update" better than "suppport" since it gets to the point and doesnt make people think that you are wanting people to support motorola (as opposed to supporting the phone you purchased).
yess..
i don't know what this "campaign" can do, but i share the link in all social networks where i'm..
findthedr said:
appreciate you doing this.
I hope you and the "support my moto campaign" work together since it sounds like you both share similar goals.
I actually like your campaign of "update" better than "suppport" since it gets to the point and doesnt make people think that you are wanting people to support motorola (as opposed to supporting the phone you purchased).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We will work together, yes
The idea was to create only one campaign, but we ended up spliting it because we had different views on this. But we agreed to help each other, since our goal is the same in the end.
kkruglov said:
yess..
i don't know what this "campaign" can do, but i share the link in all social networks where i'm..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks!
I'm spreading the word. I got motonomore.com, It's just a plain guestbook and I'm sure its kind of silly but I was hoping for tons of complaint posts about Moto. I figured all spread out our voice don't look so big but all in one place might make a change. Either way I'm posting every site or articles can find on this. I know Motorola wants everyone to lie down so it will be forgotten but if that happens then they got a new group to rape in an alley.
shallmrt said:
I'm spreading the word. I got motonomore.com, It's just a plain guestbook and I'm sure its kind of silly but I was hoping for tons of complaint posts about Moto. I figured all spread out our voice don't look so big but all in one place might make a change. Either way I'm posting every site or articles can find on this. I know Motorola wants everyone to lie down so it will be forgotten but if that happens then they got a new group to rape in an alley.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for sharing! I will add your website on the main page
UPDATE
Campaign's page updated with a Brazilian Portuguese version
ACCESS THE WEBSITE
If you can translate the campaign to another language, please send the translated text to julianfernandes [at] ubuntu [dot] com
Hopefully they will be able to get something out to us. I'm so angry that they left us out in the cold like this. It reflects poorly on them as a company and they will be lucky to receive my business again.
shared!
Thanks. I'm not very optimistic, but I'll be thrilled if you succeed.
The other campaign is also talking to the FTC, which I expect to be more helpful than the BBB. I think the BBB's day has gone, and it is now just an organization that extracts payments from companies to maintain "good" ratings. The FTC may still think its mission is to protect consumers.
Good work
Good work and I hope you succeed!
Moto-- "We are committed to being more transparent than ever on our software upgrade strategy - even when we're delivering news consumers may not want to hear. We are doing everything possible to continually improve our communication with you and make sure you are a satisfied customer. That's why we recently announced our $100 rebate program for owners of these and other devices launched in 2011 and beyond that won't get Android 4.1 Jelly Bean. This program starts in the U.S. this fall, and we are working to expand it to select regions around the world. Please watch for updates at motorola.com/tradeup.
BBB-- "If you are not satisfied with the company's response and wish to provide additional information relevant to your complaint (such as a copy of your contract, invoice, receipt, work order, warranty, etc.) please submit it with your rebuttal by the aforementioned date. If the Bureau does not receive a response from you within ten (10) days, your complaint will close as Assumed Resolved."
"
I clicked that I didn't accept their response and made my rebuttal. I'm sure everyone is getting this same message and I'm assuming BBB will be fine with Motorola's answer. I however will never click the I accept the response unless they either give me the money to buy a Samsung Galaxy S3 (without contract or my broken contract fees included) or the option to unlock my phone.
Steve motonomore.com
I think the BBB is mostly about getting companies to pay for advertising in exchange for a good rating. I'd try the FTC, which might be interested in what Moto promised. Or you could try at the state level. Most states have a consumer protection agency. There seems to be a directory of state and local agencies here:
http://www.usa.gov/directory/stateconsumer/index.shtml
Shared
Hopefully something comes of all these campaigns. I'd especially love to have my wimax back.. #Smh #Pipedreams
shallmrt said:
Moto-- "We are committed to being more transparent than ever on our software upgrade strategy - even when we're delivering news consumers may not want to hear. We are doing everything possible to continually improve our communication with you and make sure you are a satisfied customer. That's why we recently announced our $100 rebate program for owners of these and other devices launched in 2011 and beyond that won't get Android 4.1 Jelly Bean. This program starts in the U.S. this fall, and we are working to expand it to select regions around the world. Please watch for updates at motorola.com/tradeup.
BBB-- "If you are not satisfied with the company's response and wish to provide additional information relevant to your complaint (such as a copy of your contract, invoice, receipt, work order, warranty, etc.) please submit it with your rebuttal by the aforementioned date. If the Bureau does not receive a response from you within ten (10) days, your complaint will close as Assumed Resolved."
"
I clicked that I didn't accept their response and made my rebuttal. I'm sure everyone is getting this same message and I'm assuming BBB will be fine with Motorola's answer. I however will never click the I accept the response unless they either give me the money to buy a Samsung Galaxy S3 (without contract or my broken contract fees included) or the option to unlock my phone.
Steve motonomore.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That must be the form letter they are using for everyone. I didn't accept it either. Sent them a fairly long nastygram in response. Not expecting any satisfaction though.
It's amazing that they just keep right on with the BS:
Get the best of Android from us
We want to give you the best of smartphone technology. That means not only pushing the boundaries on design, utility, and speed, but also providing the best mobile software out there. Today, that's Jelly Bean, the newest Android operating system. That's why we're upgrading Motorola smartphones first offered for sale in 2011¹ and later to Jelly Bean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and then of course the superscript section says:
1 Applies to United States sales of Android Motorola smartphones first offered in 2011 or later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well gee, I'm pretty sure - but don't quote me on this - that all the phones we are pissed about (Atrix 4G, Photon 4G, Electrify) were offered aka released in 2011, go figure. I mean, what, are they going to toss out Jelly Bean for all these devices soon, 'cause that's exactly how I read that content, word for word.
I mean, I could understand if THAT content said "except for certain devices" and then actually name said devices directly or something similar but it doesn't: it flat out says if the device was offered in 2011 or later (as the Atrix 4G, the Photon 4G, and the Electrify were), they're getting Jelly Bean updates and, unless I'm mistaken, that's not going to happen.
Doesn't say some, or specific ones that will or won't get any update to Jelly Bean, it specifically right there in black and white says if it's a Motorola Android phone offered in 2011 and later it's getting an update to Jelly Bean. I mean... WTFOMGBBQ
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here but when you say one thing and it turns out to be absolutely positively false, you're generally considered to be lying, right? Right?
Sure seems like something the FTC might be persuaded into looking into: that's flat out customer fraud, plain, simple, black and white, no muss, no fuss, no questions asked, right there on that page.
Motorola, are you even trying?
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
owen1978 said:
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between your case and the Kindle though is that they're selling the hardware, not the software per se. Seems like selling a ROM would be getting in lots of complicated legalese stuff. You know, opening a can of worms.
You can get more information here:
http://source.android.com/
You cant take something thats open source write your own code ontop of it and call it closed source... Google has made that code opensource for a reason and im sure there are tons of legal issues that go with that... And it being Google's proprietary code means you cant sell it unless you buy it off them Im sure...
I'm pretty sure you can't do that. I could be wrong but i think as stated above if your using any of the open sources and then trying to sell it yourself you might be facing some legal issues. Plus would it sell? Are other roms available for that phone if so then why would choose to buy a rom? (just some questions that i would ask myself) Does it make sense to sell it even if you could? I think all the hassle you might go through isn't worth it. Especially if you might face a ton of legal issues.
Ask your self is it right decision to sell something that is based on something that is free and open source.
owen1978 said:
I am thinking about privately developing an Android ROM built from source for a particular market that I am
thinking of targeting... Like Amazon have done with their Kindle HD built on ICS sources.
Would It be illegal to sell that ROM?
Could I patent/copyright the ROM or parts of it?
Is there any thing I need to consider from a legal perspective?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think that it would be illegal. (Although it probably would not sale.
You could patent/copyright parts of it as many OEMs have done this (Like Samsung and Motorola)
Pneuma1985 said:
You cant take something thats open source write your own code ontop of it and call it closed source... Google has made that code opensource for a reason and im sure there are tons of legal issues that go with that... And it being Google's proprietary code means you cant sell it unless you buy it off them Im sure...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
y0yerrj0sh said:
I'm pretty sure you can't do that. I could be wrong but i think as stated above if your using any of the open sources and then trying to sell it yourself you might be facing some legal issues. Plus would it sell? Are other roms available for that phone if so then why would choose to buy a rom? (just some questions that i would ask myself) Does it make sense to sell it even if you could? I think all the hassle you might go through isn't worth it. Especially if you might face a ton of legal issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most, if not all, of the OEMs such as HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG incorporate thier own code into thier Android running on thier devices. While the Android code itself is under GPL and other open source classifications, much of the code OEMs put into thier builds is closed source (Sense, TouchWiz, Beats, etc.) and not subject to open source classifications. Therefore these companies DO NOT have to release that code.
The most important part though is that Apple has made a living suing Android OEMs for things they have patented that they claim Android infringes upon and have won some. THey do not attack Google, but the OEMs USING android. You may leave yourself open to legal implications with other companies like Apple.
However, I do not know your skill level, but given that you are asking the question, it seems as though you are just getting into this. Actally writing code and developing ROMs is pretty intense and I would think odds are you are getting much further ahead of yourself than you think.
Good luck to you, but most people on here do it for the fun/hobby and do not make any substantial money from thier efforts.
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
mv_style said:
Ask your self is it right decision to sell something that is based on something that is free and open source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, ALL THE OEMs making Android devices are doing this.
raptoro07 said:
I don't think that it would be illegal. (Although it probably would not sale.
You could patent/copyright parts of it as many OEMs have done this (Like Samsung and Motorola)
Most, if not all, of the OEMs such as HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG incorporate thier own code into thier Android running on thier devices. While the Android code itself is under GPL and other open source classifications, much of the code OEMs put into thier builds is closed source (Sense, TouchWiz, Beats, etc.) and not subject to open source classifications. Therefore these companies DO NOT have to release that code.
The most important part though is that Apple has made a living suing Android OEMs for things they have patented that they claim Android infringes upon and have won some. THey do not attack Google, but the OEMs USING android. You may leave yourself open to legal implications with other companies like Apple.
However, I do not know your skill level, but given that you are asking the question, it seems as though you are just getting into this. Actally writing code and developing ROMs is pretty intense and I would think odds are you are getting much further ahead of yourself than you think.
Good luck to you, but most people on here do it for the fun/hobby and do not make any substantial money from thier efforts.
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
Again, ALL THE OEMs making Android devices are doing this.
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But once again, most OEMs don't sell Android in itself, but the hardware, with their customized Android version. There's quite a leap between repackaging Android and selling it and selling hardware with your software, based on Android, on it.
You are right about certain parts being closed source though.
You shouldn't develop something that is free and sell it for money. You may run into legal issues and perhaps a cease and desist order from Google when they find out. There's a reason android is open source. If it wasn't for legal issues, I would happily buy it from you if the ROM pretty awesome.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
AW: Develop a ROM and Sell it???
As far as I know Android is published on Apache License 2.0. If I understood the license correctly, you can use / modify / distribute projects based on the code as long as you declare what you used and as long as you distribute the license with your project, too.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
You can develop your own code into Android and sell it.
The problem is no one would buy it. You need much larger than a 1 man show to actually develop software. You may be able to write it yourself, but you can't possibly test it. Which is exactly why it won't sell. Any company who is in the market for a custom Android image would more than likely have their own in house team of coders, and the cost effictive way to move forward would be to have their own guys do it, even if they had to learn.
But self improvement is always great, I'd give it a shot anyway, just don't quit your job!
Google is a huge entity and not a force to be reckoned with.....
Sent from my Fire Kindling A-Pad
hi guys as some of you know a few of us are trying to port various roms to the htc one max, however this is proving very difficult as we do not have the kernel source code which is the main thing stopping us. Recently i have tweeted at @HTCDev on twitter asking them if and when they plan to release them, and i figured that many voices are stronger than 1 so if lots of people tweet @HTCDev we might have a standing chance of getting them just an idea !
you might have seen the other thread from which involved emailing HTC about the same thing and we did not get much of response there.. we can surely do this, but don't know if that will help
@PradeepVizz 16s
@htcdev hello, when can we expect the kernel sources for the MAX to be available for downloads?
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Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
pradeepvizz said:
you might have seen the other thread from which involved emailing HTC about the same thing and we did not get much of response there.. we can surely do this, but don't know if that will help
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Murrda said:
Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
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welcome back mate! Hope you had a great vacation! Happy new year to you and everyone around!
Excited to know your dev setup, I have got virtual box for Ubuntu 12.10 ready for the same. Thanks for the update. I am no kernel dev but want to start kicking things and yeah got some great support from you and the other guys.
There was another dev who left the device a few days ago, not sure what the reason was
The worst part i suspect is going to be after KitKat Update, which is like about 1 month away and we need to repeat the waiting again for that :/
Thanks for update! keep rocking!!!
Well as long as we get some type of source and better it being 4.3 source I'm sure Flyhalf won't have to much of a problem building us a solid CM11 using this sources.. I believe its pretty much what he did with the original HTC One but this was also on Verizon which is what I'm on.. Either way we should hopefully be getting somewhere very soon!!
Sent a "Tell us what your Want" to HTCDev. Tracking # 3936471
I also have a case open with HTC dev
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Murrda said:
Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
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hey all! how have you been? the kernel source situation is getting a bit ridiculous! we are about to get the 4.4 update in a few weeks and still don't have the source code for 4.3, i can't imagine the wait we are going to have to go through for the 4.4 source code!
Yep. I have sent about 27 request to HTC Dev. The Answer is the same. "We have escalated your issue to Tier 2 for "Tracking".
I responded back saying.. I don't care about tracking.. I want to know when they will honor the GPL for release of the kernel.
The answer is "Sorry we do not have a ETA for the release of the kernel. Please keep an eye on our htcdev.com site and the sources will be posted there when released."
So I took to twitter and have been calling them out there asking for GPL compliance for the HTC One Max Kernel Source for both 4.3 now and 4.4 upon deployment.
Newest Email after I have been raising hell on twitter.
Dear Deadphoenix,
It is really nice to hear from you.
Deadphoenix, I totally understand what you are saying and in this case this situation, due to policies, needs to be handle by a higher department and that is why that I am asking you for your contact number, this will help me in order to pass this to the right department.
Please let me know this information and I will be more than glad to help you with this.
Have an amazing Wednesday, Deadphoenix.
Thanks for the effort mate
Here is my most recent email I sent to HTC Dev:
Hello,
From information I gathered from the Free Software Foundation (authors of the GPL) about this (as well as some other folks I know that have a better legal background than I), and I compiled the following information for you.
Brett Smith at the Free Software Foundation said, in response to your recent claims that the GPL provides for a delay: "HTC's reading is outrageous -- we honestly thought no respectable company would have the gall to publicly make this argument. A delay of 90-120 days is not reasonable, considering that they must already have the source code.". Clearly, then, the authors of the GPL did not intend for any provision for a delay to be present.
Other legally-trained acquaintances commented that allowing a delay there would easily lead to reductio ad absurdum -- i.e., if an arbitrary delay could be inserted in this contract (which HTC agreed to upon releasing the binary), then that would imply that an arbitrary delay could be inserted in any contract. In most legal cases, it has been shown that if something can be read as either being absurd or not being absurd, the not-absurd reading is the one legally taken.
You mentioned 3(b) of the GPL, which begins that you must "accompany [the binary distribution] with a written offer, valid for at least three years [...] a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code", and it seems that the second clause there -- "valid for at least three years" is the crux of it. Currently, the distribution does come with an offer, but the offer is not valid -- when I asked for the source code, HTC was unable to provide it for me, claiming instead that it would be given to me at an unspecified point in the future. This is not acceptable.
I note also that legal interpretations of a work tend to consider not just the strictly written details, but the intent; when details are in dispute, the overall intent is then referred to. The goal of the GNU GPL is to enhance the freedoms of anyone who receives the software, and to force one who might modify the software and distribute it for their own purposes to publish their changes back to the community. The GNU GPL does not have any provisions for temporarily withholding source for competitive or other reasons; the agreement that one must make when one distributes a binary is that one must also distribute source. Not doing so at the same time would be a violation, not just of the letter, but of the spirit of the contract; the goal of the GNU GPL is to enrich the freedoms of the commons through which software is distributed.
Given these four points -- the FSF's reading, the reductio ad absurdum, the letter of section 3(b) of the GPL, and the spirit of the GPL as a whole -- it is clear that the GPL requires that HTC release the source for the kernel at the same time or earlier than the binary. To that end, I request that you, within 24 hours, provide me with a link to the source for kernel of the HTC One Max 4.3 as well as the 4.4 Kernel upon release of the binary to the public.
It is clear from the reading and intention of the GPL that HTC is currently in violation of the GPL requirements of making the Kernel Source available. I have a cc'd copy of this message prepared for the media outlets as well in anticipation of HTC's denial again of the Source Code. If you are unable to assist me please escalate my message to the appropriate authority capable of making the decision to comply with GPL.
Sincerely and Seriously,
hopefully, somebody who reads and speaks english will get your email..
nicely worded!
:good::good:
wase4711 said:
hopefully, somebody who reads and speaks english will get your email..
nicely worded!
:good::good:
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mate, that email is quite old, dates back to days of EVO days - http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
but still a good effort by @DeadPhoenix to send HTC the email.
pradeepvizz said:
mate, that email is quite old, dates back to days of EVO days - http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
but still a good effort by @DeadPhoenix to send HTC the email.
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Yep. That's the source. I use it for my response to HTC when they reply that there is no set limit to release source.
sneaky....but hopefully effective!
wase4711 said:
sneaky....but hopefully effective!
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Supposedly someone from HTCDev Support Tier 2 is calling me today about a GPL discussion.
We shall see.
Don't forget to ask for 4.4 lol
DeadPhoenix said:
Supposedly someone from HTCDev Support Tier 2 is calling me today about a GPL discussion.
We shall see.
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Good luck with that sir. From everything I've ever heard about this, it seems that HTC thinks that a 60-120 day grace period is acceptable, and that's all there is to it.
By all means though, fight the good fight. I've just resigned myself to heckling their marketing team about it on Google +.
What you're doing is probably more "constructive" though...
Sent from my HTC6600LVW using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
belly of the beast said:
Good luck with that sir. From everything I've ever heard about this, it seems that HTC thinks that a 60-120 day grace period is acceptable, and that's all there is to it.
By all means though, fight the good fight. I've just resigned myself to heckling their marketing team about it on Google +.
What you're doing is probably more "constructive" though...
Sent from my HTC6600LVW using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Suprise... suprise they didn't call yet.