Ivan, or more popularly known as 秋叶随风, is a super fan / guru that has help beloved MIUI fans around the world by developing customised ROMs.
When the MIUI news team first broke news about the upcoming interview
with Ivan, our ever enthusiastic fans responded with over 100+ burning
questions for dear Ivan in our fan poll!
Despite churning out amazing works that are used by MIUI fans all around
the globe, Ivan keeps a surprisingly low profile, and trying to befriend him
on QQ is no easy feat; His one and only friend request question requires
you to know his boss’s phone number before you can gain acceptance as his
friend!
Of course, the MIUI news team spares no efforts in reaching out to Ivan
for the ever curious MIUI fans, and here’s the much-awaited interview with
some of the interesting fan questions, complete with a real snapshot of
what Ivan looks like!
Question 1 : Tell us 4 interesting facts about
yourself!
I’m actually a staff of Xiaomi and a big loyal fan of MIUI!
Nobody calls me by my real name at work - Instead, everyone prefers to
call me by my nickname, “秋大”
I used to be a developer for iOS and webkit, the open source web browser
engine that's used by Safari, Dashboard, Mail, and many other OS X
applications
I’m a novice in swimming, having just picked up the skill last year; To be
honest, my swimming can’t even rival that of the kids that I see in the pool!
Question 2: What do you actually do in Xiaomi and
how long have you been working there?
I started working for Xiaomi last year and is currently involved in Linux
server and configuration management and technical support. My main duty
is to ensure that my fellow colleagues can work or laze happily! Occasionally,
I dabble in MIUI system upgrades, memory optimization, stable ROMs
upgrades as well as updating the Android version to allow my colleagues to
test out Google’s latest features.
Question 3: How did you learn to customise ROMs
and can you teach other aspiring fans how to go about
doing it too and what is required to get started?
When I first came into contact with Android phones, the phone
manufacturers integrated the phones with too much bloatware that made the
user experience abysmal. Hence i decided to try my hand at customising the
ROM by myself, purely out of interest! I am actually self-taught, and
personally i think this is one area that is very difficult to teach.
For aspiring fans that would like to go down this path to customise their own
ROM, my advice would be to first familiarise yourself with Java, C, C++
and Linux, as well as shell kernel script writing. A good way to get started is
to follow what others have done in customising the ROM, by basing it on
their git log to understand the logic behind the tweaking. Of course, the
prerequisites are that you have plenty of time, and a relatively good
computer with fast internet speed.
Question 4: What features are you planning to add
to your latest customised ROM?
It may surprise you, but i do not like adding new functionalities. If you want
to, you don’t have to do it yourself, but use the ready solutions out there
like CyanogenMod, Paranoid Android, AOKP, etc.
Question 5: What device are you using now and why?
I am currently using two phones; an iPhone 5, and Mi2. I love my Mi2
primarily because i find the size perfect, and the hardware is not outdated,
and best of all, i can customise it everyday!
Question 6: How long does it take for you to work
on each ROM?
From conceptualisation till its actual run takes around 1 week, but it could
take 1 to 2 months to correct for all the bugs and stabilise the system. If i
am lucky, I could update and release a more stable version in 1 - 2 weeks.
Question 7: Do you actually earn anything from
doing this?
I pursue and customise ROMs out of my pure personal interest and passion
to share what I love with fellow MIUI fans, and I do not earn a single cent
out of this. Of course, more money is always good, but personally my
opinion is that if one were to pursue this out of monetary interest, it would
defeat the purpose of doing this in the first place.
Question 8: What was the first ROM you made and
what was the motivation behind it?
I first customised the ROM for my Huawei C8500/U8150. Back then,
the phones is packed with more customised softwares. I had the idea of
customising it for my phone for a very simple reason; the touch points for
the phone weren’t many at the point in time, and i decided to tweak the
kernel source to add two more touch points and that’s how I got started!
After that, I got hooked on customising and the rest is history.
***** TOP FAN. QUESTION *****
(from @ej8989 -> We see you have great potential as paparazzi! Care to join the
MIUI News Team? )))
Question 9: Are you dating someone within the
MIUI community?
My interactions with fellow colleagues hardly extend beyond our professional
working relationship, and the majority of the fans are guys! No girl would
want to date a code geek anyway, so… to put it simply, no.
Source : MIUI forum
en.miui.com/thread-48984-1-1.html
Hope all of you enjoyed. (Nothing talked about sources makes me sad).
Lol. No mi-bunny for me though.
Dear Ivan
Have a great respect for you Bro...
SaiMadhav
sivabommakanti said:
Ivan, or more popularly known as 秋叶随风, is a super fan / guru that has help beloved MIUI fans around the world by developing customised ROMs.
When the MIUI news team first broke news about the upcoming interview
with Ivan, our ever enthusiastic fans responded with over 100+ burning
questions for dear Ivan in our fan poll!
Despite churning out amazing works that are used by MIUI fans all around
the globe, Ivan keeps a surprisingly low profile, and trying to befriend him
on QQ is no easy feat; His one and only friend request question requires
you to know his boss’s phone number before you can gain acceptance as his
friend!
Of course, the MIUI news team spares no efforts in reaching out to Ivan
for the ever curious MIUI fans, and here’s the much-awaited interview with
some of the interesting fan questions, complete with a real snapshot of
what Ivan looks like!
Question 1 : Tell us 4 interesting facts about
yourself!
I’m actually a staff of Xiaomi and a big loyal fan of MIUI!
Nobody calls me by my real name at work - Instead, everyone prefers to
call me by my nickname, “秋大”
I used to be a developer for iOS and webkit, the open source web browser
engine that's used by Safari, Dashboard, Mail, and many other OS X
applications
I’m a novice in swimming, having just picked up the skill last year; To be
honest, my swimming can’t even rival that of the kids that I see in the pool!
Question 2: What do you actually do in Xiaomi and
how long have you been working there?
I started working for Xiaomi last year and is currently involved in Linux
server and configuration management and technical support. My main duty
is to ensure that my fellow colleagues can work or laze happily! Occasionally,
I dabble in MIUI system upgrades, memory optimization, stable ROMs
upgrades as well as updating the Android version to allow my colleagues to
test out Google’s latest features.
Question 3: How did you learn to customise ROMs
and can you teach other aspiring fans how to go about
doing it too and what is required to get started?
When I first came into contact with Android phones, the phone
manufacturers integrated the phones with too much bloatware that made the
user experience abysmal. Hence i decided to try my hand at customising the
ROM by myself, purely out of interest! I am actually self-taught, and
personally i think this is one area that is very difficult to teach.
For aspiring fans that would like to go down this path to customise their own
ROM, my advice would be to first familiarise yourself with Java, C, C++
and Linux, as well as shell kernel script writing. A good way to get started is
to follow what others have done in customising the ROM, by basing it on
their git log to understand the logic behind the tweaking. Of course, the
prerequisites are that you have plenty of time, and a relatively good
computer with fast internet speed.
Question 4: What features are you planning to add
to your latest customised ROM?
It may surprise you, but i do not like adding new functionalities. If you want
to, you don’t have to do it yourself, but use the ready solutions out there
like CyanogenMod, Paranoid Android, AOKP, etc.
Question 5: What device are you using now and why?
I am currently using two phones; an iPhone 5, and Mi2. I love my Mi2
primarily because i find the size perfect, and the hardware is not outdated,
and best of all, i can customise it everyday!
Question 6: How long does it take for you to work
on each ROM?
From conceptualisation till its actual run takes around 1 week, but it could
take 1 to 2 months to correct for all the bugs and stabilise the system. If i
am lucky, I could update and release a more stable version in 1 - 2 weeks.
Question 7: Do you actually earn anything from
doing this?
I pursue and customise ROMs out of my pure personal interest and passion
to share what I love with fellow MIUI fans, and I do not earn a single cent
out of this. Of course, more money is always good, but personally my
opinion is that if one were to pursue this out of monetary interest, it would
defeat the purpose of doing this in the first place.
Question 8: What was the first ROM you made and
what was the motivation behind it?
I first customised the ROM for my Huawei C8500/U8150. Back then,
the phones is packed with more customised softwares. I had the idea of
customising it for my phone for a very simple reason; the touch points for
the phone weren’t many at the point in time, and i decided to tweak the
kernel source to add two more touch points and that’s how I got started!
After that, I got hooked on customising and the rest is history.
***** TOP FAN. QUESTION *****
(from @ej8989 -> We see you have great potential as paparazzi! Care to join the
MIUI News Team? )))
Question 9: Are you dating someone within the
MIUI community?
My interactions with fellow colleagues hardly extend beyond our professional
working relationship, and the majority of the fans are guys! No girl would
want to date a code geek anyway, so… to put it simply, no.
Source : MIUI forum
en.miui.com/thread-48984-1-1.html
Hope all of you enjoyed. (Nothing talked about sources makes me sad).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oneplus x is a really nice phone , i especially like its form factor which is why i brought one just today , but i read a thread where oneplus did not release MM kernel sources and this phone's production stopped. Now i am thinking about giving it back as it would be nearly impossible for future development.
What would anyone who is a present owner suggest in such a situation ? I am only getting this phone because of its 5 inch form factor and good development team.
P.s i know onyx got some top class dev's and Nougat is already on its way, i do not doubt their potential but just this phones future development progress.
Thank you.
We don't need OnePlus for further development. We are perfectly capable of keeping it up to spec. You'll be fine. Enjoy your new toy
It's a phone. You aren't buying it for its future development, you buying it for its features and the fact that they satisfy you. Don't fall in such buyer loop.
Sent from my ONE E1001
sniper20 said:
It's a phone. You aren't buying it for its future development, you buying it for its features and the fact that they satisfy you. Don't fall in such buyer loop.
Sent from my ONE E1001
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am a person who is easily bored out using the same rom , i like aosp but i tend to move between different roms (once a week) just because of that . The fact that this phone has CM13 , MIUI (WIP) , SAILFISH OS excited me the most. This is the only reason i look for a phone with good dev community in it which partially require OEM & Chipset supplier support to release drivers.
Of course the phone excites me but I've looped through so many phones that the phone hardware alone does not excite me anymore.
Thank you for the advise tho.
RJDTWO said:
We don't need OnePlus for further development. We are perfectly capable of keeping it up to spec. You'll be fine. Enjoy your new toy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you for the reply , but might i ask why . I always thought OEM's have to release the kernel sources or the phone will have less chance to be supported by next android version because dev's have to depend on hacks to get things working which is never ideal.
tufli said:
thank you for the reply , but might i ask why . I always thought OEM's have to release the kernel sources or the phone will have less chance to be supported by next android version because dev's have to depend on hacks to get things working which is never ideal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. Theoretically the only thing we need kernel wise is the DTS and a few drivers. We can pull the source for the 801 from Qualcomm themselves. We don't need an OEM outside of that
Hi everyone,
I see so much hype about the Gcam and everyone trying to get it ported but it will never work as it should especially on Exynos devices.
I am wondering why does nobody try to port the S10 camera app? It has some benefits and features (software) that would come handy in our devices and it would be much easier to port as it is something like an updated version of the app which we already have.
I am also wondering why there is no S10 custom roms or S10 ROM ports for S9/S9+? The development for earlier phones is much more active, example S7/edge, but for S9/S9+ the scene seems dead? Maybe because everyone is loosing too much time on porting gcam?
Also if some of you know some telegram groups which have the above mentioned topics I would be thankful if you could post the links to join those groups. It seems that most of the devs are now using telegram instead of forums.
arnes_king said:
Hi everyone,
I see so much hype about the Gcam and everyone trying to get it ported but it will never work as it should especially on Exynos devices.
I am wondering why does nobody try to port the S10 camera app? It has some benefits and features (software) that would come handy in our devices and it would be much easier to port as it is something like an updated version of the app which we already have.
I am also wondering why there is no S10 custom roms or S10 ROM ports for S9/S9+? The development for earlier phones is much more active, example S7/edge, but for S9/S9+ the scene seems dead? Maybe because everyone is loosing too much time on porting gcam?
Also if some of you know some telegram groups which have the above mentioned topics I would be thankful if you could post the links to join those groups. It seems that most of the devs are now using telegram instead of forums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Part of the problem is that for the last couple of years, Samsung has locked the America-bound phones, which puts a BIG damper on the whole development process. Locked bootloader= iOS knockoff. At least you can still install a camera APK, though. If you want a custom Sammy ROM now, gotta look overseas, and so many of those are just clones.
Hello,
Basically i brought some people together, it consists of:
- @ThE_MarD, Developer (first attempt)
- @npjohnson, Developer (second attempt) / to work together with Marc
- @mxz55 (as device sponsor & eventually to help coordinate the project)
There's been a bunch of discussion where this plan got incubated, but it was in the Edge 30 forum (not the right place), hence im creating a dedicated topic here.
Previous discussion examples:
1) https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/...la-edge-30-dubai.4536169/page-6#post-88509185 with less relevant posts before it, and more relevant posts after it, such as: here, here, and here
This new topic will be used to clarify the state of things, and post any updates for those that are interested in LineageOS for this device. FIrst of all, to the state there's some updates:
09-05-2023: Motorola rejected the device sample request, so we will fall back to what was intended and i will source it
10-05-2023: The device can't be purchased in Canada yet (country of ThE_MarD) and will likely be released in Canada & US rebranded as Edge+ (2023), with the same codename lyriq.
As it's essentially the same hardware (except for battery and fast charging), a LineageOS ROM should be compatible with both variants (likely also Moto X40, if not after a conversion process) and therefore development can be based on Edge 40 Pro.
To not lose time on that, i've ordered the Edge 40 Pro to my house, and tomorrow i will ship it on to ThE_MarD in Canada, using priority shipping that's likely to take 3-7 days. Of course, i will include a Type A & Type B power adapter in the box.
Roadmap expectations:
11-05-2023 / 12-05-2023: Scheduled shipment to Canada
After it arrives, The_MarD will attempt to add LineageOS support for the Motorola Edge 40 Pro. Device has released sources for an older firmware version which would be sufficient to have official LineageOS support, even though another pending request for release of the latest firmware version sources would be beneficial on the long term, or maybe the precompiled kernel can even lead to unofficial side builds in case anyone experiences bugs that have already been fixed.
As you can read from the previous discussion links, there's a comprehensive plan for this project, like in the case that The_MarD is unsuccessful to get LineageOS running on this device, another experienced developer can be next up to try. In this case, The_MarD will ship the device on to said developer (at my costs, as sponsor) and that would be @npjohnson as said here, when we got him on board. Even though it's likely to not be needed, to say that @ThE_MarD can accomplish it. And the final gesture from me as sponsor is that the developer who accomplishes it, gets to keep the device. I will re-buy an Edge 40 Pro for myself to run LOS on, in case we succeed.
Except for the few odd posts from me, this thread shall be used by the main Developer to share progress updates with the community. It is likely to turn into a development tag thread (when device arrives and the LOS attempt commences) and where if the main Developer needs to, testers/help from other devs on XDA can be requested
I'll put some information on what bringing support to this device means to me (why i wanted it so bad, that im willing to fork so much money and effort towards the cause) below in Post #2.
My story about why i want this so badly:
The combination of these things form what type of user i am:
- I never settle for anything less than a custom ROM like LineageOS / AOSP
Even if the stock ROM is decent and relatively clear of bloat (and they promise a certain amount of large updates and security patches), you won't have the degree of freedom, control, privacy and security that a custom ROM can provide (of course, in the right hands). With everything, standard apps included, being opensource, you know what is running on your device and can audit if it's secure. Unlike with stock ROM's, where unknown, proprietary code is running.
In my eyes, a ROM line LineageOS is the only way to perceive the full power of latest flagship-gen hardware, as it's the lightest & bloat-free you can get. When someone has the latest phone with a lot of performance, it feels more than good enough with the stock ROM due to high raw performance, but that might come back to "just not knowing any better".
So now, an important aspect of why im doing all this effort and spending a significant amount of money: to have the greatest, the earliest. This device has the latest Qualcomm chipset, Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 (sm8550) that is making its way to today's flagships, having been launched around December 2022. If we can get LineageOS up and running here, it will be a prime occasion for the entire custom ROM scene, to have something like LOS on the latest chipset so fast. I have a knack for always wanting to use the latest tech, but it can be difficult to do so on your own terms (like having full control, as LineageOS provides)
Luckily, Motorola is a development friendly brand and has good recovery tools (it can even restore a full brick on the firmware level). I also spotted someone who is in the LineageOS implementation process for the same chipset with Samsung modifications (Galaxy S23 range): see it (along with "samsung-sm8550-dev" org) if you're interested. Developers are clearly setting their gaze on sm8550, and the samsung variant is close enough to main one, to possibly be useful in our scenario as well.
Reserved Post #2 (for later roadmap updates)
Update (11-05): device shipped to Marc in Canada, i had received it
Takes approx 2-5 days to get there
Heyyo! I'm definitely looking forward to this challenge! Yeah in the future we can try to point testers here as we go and post some milestones too
Update (11-05): device shipped to Marc in Canada, i had received it
Takes approx 2-5 days to get there
So I've started a GitHub organization for these development efforts here:
Motorola Edge 40 Pro / Edge+ (2023) / Moto X40 development
Motorola Edge 40 Pro / Edge+ (2023) / Moto X40 development has 5 repositories available. Follow their code on GitHub.
github.com
So far it's just the initial work of rebranding and updating eqs (Edge 30 Ultra) trees for rtwo, but it's a start!
Update: I also saw that rtwo codename is shared for both Edge 40 Pro and Edge Plus (2023) so that makes life easier.
Update2: I was told that Edge X40 is also rtwo so it sounds like we can do unified trees which is nice
I made an inquiry with Motorola on the kernel source code for rtwo as I'm not sure if we are missing some repos or if they are unused
GPL | Source request for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) XT2301-4 - T1TR33.43-20-28 · Issue #503 · MotorolaMobilityLLC/kernel-msm
Please release the kernel tree, device tree and all the necessary audio/video/display techpack for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) version T1TR33.43-20-28 Model number: XT2301-4 Codename: rtwo cc @chen...
github.com
I have two products
CN version!!
Is it possible to install Lineage ROM?
Lineage Development Team, I love you so much!!!
Heyyo @Kkjin , these are English forums, please use a translator to post in English as well
Google Translate
Google's service, offered free of charge, instantly translates words, phrases, and web pages between English and over 100 other languages.
translate.google.com
The plan is to support all 3 models of rtwo. Edge 40 Pro, Edge+ (2023) and Moto X40. It is currently under development and a test build isn't released yet... but once a test build is ready it will be posted in this forum thread.
ThE_MarD said:
I made an inquiry with Motorola on the kernel source code for rtwo as I'm not sure if we are missing some repos or if they are unused
GPL | Source request for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) XT2301-4 - T1TR33.43-20-28 · Issue #503 · MotorolaMobilityLLC/kernel-msm
Please release the kernel tree, device tree and all the necessary audio/video/display techpack for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) version T1TR33.43-20-28 Model number: XT2301-4 Codename: rtwo cc @chen...
github.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah we are definitely missing the repos... Audio device tree and display are proprietary so they apparently won't even be available on CLO... So either Motorola needs to release them or they need to be backwards engineered... I'm inquiring with Cosmin Tanislav as he did so for eqs (Edge 30 Ultra / Moto X30 Pro) so maybe he has some advice for us?
@Kkjin there is development on eqs (Edge 30 Ultra, Moto X30 Pro) but I am unsure where those builds are shared. I would recommend checking Telegram for Edge 30 Ultra or Moto X30 Pro communities and ask there
I wish I could get someone to walk me thru installing this once I get my new phone, right now I'm on the unlocked T-Mobile Edge and will be updating soon, probably next month, to the Edge+23.
ThE_MarD said:
Yeah we are definitely missing the repos... Audio device tree and display are proprietary so they apparently won't even be available on CLO... So either Motorola needs to release them or they need to be backwards engineered... I'm inquiring with Cosmin Tanislav as he did so for eqs (Edge 30 Ultra / Moto X30 Pro) so maybe he has some advice for us?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
damn, i hope it will work out, or else we may need to make unofficial builds for a while (precompiled kernel). Does it seem like he wants to help? Also, it seems kinda random how Motorola treats the releasing of said things, as not all phones have stumbled on roadblocks like that, i still hope they will show goodwill on your github post and make the next release that's requested with those trees included.
I really hope Motorola doesn't abandon its growing reputation for being a developer friendly brand, let's see what happens.
In other news, the package arrived to Marc's city (per the tracking info) but is yet to be directed to his address from the depot. Canada Post is being slow, but it is what it is and we're not in a hurry or anything. He'll probably be able to really explore what the options are, once he got the device in front of him soon.
Ray.Marx said:
I wish I could get someone to walk me thru installing this once I get my new phone, right now I'm on the unlocked T-Mobile Edge and will be updating soon, probably next month, to the Edge+23.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not ready, and there is no guarantee it will be next month. Getting flashable test builds that boot is the first step, as soon they work for Marc and me they could be shared to testers in here.
꼭 성공하시길 바래요!! 모토로라의 장점인 터치샘플링 360Hz 기능도 있었으면 좋겠습니다. 개발에 도움을 주신 mxz55님 감사합니다...!"
Mod translation: I wish you success!! I wish there was also a touch sampling 360Hz function, which is an advantage of Motorola. Thank you mxz55 for helping us develop...!"
My wife received the Edge 40 Pro for me! I'm stuck out of town doing a training course tomorrow morning and then driving 6 hours home afterwards lol oof, I asked her to check it over and make sure the contents are ok and then if she wants she can rebox it for me lol...
Update: I decided to get her to power it on and set it up for me so that it can start the timer for the OEM unlock that I'll need
Special that is again @mxz55 !!! I can't wait to give it a shot!
I'm home! This thing is absolutely beautiful!!! Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 is seriously impressive on performance and it seems energy efficiency too!
Hopefully Motorola will check my new GitHub issue request instead of commenting on that other dude's request
GPL | Missing Source request for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) XT2301-4 - T1TR33.43-20-15 · Issue #509 · MotorolaMobilityLLC/kernel-msm
Hello, I noticed for Motorola Edge 40 Pro (rtwo) XT2301-4 - T1TR33.43-20-15 kernel source release that a few repos are missing and I am humbly requesting they get released and if I missed any can y...
github.com
Nice, and i hope so too.. this is Motorola's chance to reaffirm their position as the development friendly brand that they have purported to be. It opens a significant market (advanced users) and allowing early adoption will only boost it further.
If it won't happen, i guess you'll wait out the bootloader lock period, which is 7 days for rtwo, and just start experimenting with what we've got, (or perhaps can have with Cosmin's help), knowing that a brick is easy to recover from with Lenovo Rescue & Smart Assistant tool.
Any word from Cosmin yet if he's interested to help, btw?
ThE_MarD said:
I'm home! This thing is absolutely beautiful!!! Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 is seriously impressive on performance and it seems energy efficiency too!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's get hyped up, because as we know, if you accomplish this, you can have it as your daily driver.. who wouldn't like a flagship as this one for it? I hope you like the size in hand btw, in many ways it's not comparable to say an Edge 30. Even the display quality & feel is quadtripled.
@mxz55 yeah this thing is definitely bigger and better than the Edge 30 in every regard lol, it's super impressive!
Unfortunately it seems Cosmin is a bit afk as I haven't gotten a reply from him, but tbh his activity is kinda sporadic as tbh I'm unsure what his work and personal life is like so he might have a bunch of stuff always on the go so this hobby doesn't always get time
Yeah the plan will be for meow to get a prebuilt kernel hopefully booting and then try to duplicate what eqs achieved and later get a source built kernel working
ThE_MarD said:
@mxz55 yeah this thing is definitely bigger and better than the Edge 30 in every regard lol, it's super impressive!
Unfortunately it seems Cosmin is a bit afk as I haven't gotten a reply from him, but tbh his activity is kinda sporadic as tbh I'm unsure what his work and personal life is like so he might have a bunch of stuff always on the go so this hobby doesn't always get time
Yeah the plan will be for meow to get a prebuilt kernel hopefully booting and then try to duplicate what eqs achieved and later get a source built kernel working
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try contacting him on telegram.
@keaheng I did try via Telegram but I didn't get a reply, I might try again in a few days as I don't want to push my luck
I did see Kkjin from here on Telegram in an rtwo group though hehe