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Hello fellow members.
As a mod to this Forum, i have opened this thread to address issues faced by the users related to this sub-forum. No problems related to the device will be entertained in this thread.
all users are requested to put forward their issues in this thread and i shall look into it and do the best to put away with ne such issues.
cheers.
Currently I am going through each and every post of the android development sub-sub-forum..
i think i have to delete many posts and clean up a lot of the threads.
i'll do that as soon as i m over with going through the forum..
cvchetan said:
Currently I am going through each and every post of the android development sub-sub-forum..
i think i have to delete many posts and clean up a lot of the threads.
i'll do that as soon as i m over with going through the forum..
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Hi cvchetan,
to my opinion this is a not needed Sisyphean task.
You'd have to clean thousands of useless posts and flame wars.
The main Problem is, that there are lots of users that start threads again and again without using the forums search.
And: Some People cross post in wrong threads so that the threads go off topic very soon.
Also flaming and swearing against some people is a main problem.
(That's why most X10-Root-Devs gone private).
I'd say: from now, keeping the eyes open and moderate here and there, as you began recently, would be enough to keep this Kindergarten under control...
McKebapp said:
Hi cvchetan,
to my opinion this is a not needed Sisyphean task.
You'd have to clean thousands of useless posts and flame wars.
The main Problem is, that there are lots of users that start threads again and again without using the forums search.
And: Some People cross post in wrong threads so that the threads go off topic very soon.
Also flaming and swearing against some people is a main problem.
(That's why most X10-Root-Devs gone private).
I'd say: from now, keeping the eyes open and moderate here and there, as you began recently, would be enough to keep this Kindergarten under control...
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wel that is indeed a good idea...
but then we need to remove unwanted posts and threads so tht the threads become useful to any new members or visitors as they do not have to read through all unwanted data..
cvchetan said:
wel that is indeed a good idea...
but then we need to remove unwanted posts and threads so tht the threads become useful to any new members or visitors as they do not have to read through all unwanted data..
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What about just making the most useful one sticky, clean the waste out of them and close them?
So this ones would be the reference.
Within first post could a link to a discussion thread.
This behavior works very well over at gsmfreeboard.com .
My Idea: put all good guides into an own sub category "Guides".
These Guides should be closed. If there are any increments, these Posts / Threads could be opened for a short period of time.
They can be edited by the thread starter / poster anyways.
Then there should be a second sub category "Discussion on Guides", where common users can ask everything, regarding the posts.
I have a suggestion for a new sub-forum. Something along the lines of "X10 Café" where the discussions could be informal for more general ramblings about the X10. I hesitate to call it off-topic since the topic would be the X10. Think of it like a free-for-all with general decency rules, no flaming, no personal attacks but an otherwise open place where we can air grievances or just toss around ideas.
That way general can be more about news, events and so on while the speculation and what have you goes on in the Café. It would make keeping up with the forum a lot easier since it should be a place that you don't really "have" to read.
well i like both the ideas..
lemme consult with my fellow mods for futher actions..
Maybe you can stick a link to the Wiki X10 Page and edit this Wiki page to add links to useful posts in the forum ?
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=SonyEricssonXperiaX10
imo this forums needs some temp/permanent banning, plain and simple. I read threads here every day since I have the x10, and I have to agree with many people here, some users just don't understand patience, don't understand how to use the search options and then they have to cry out loud for something they want now but they cannot provide any help so they keep posting useless replies in every 'used to be' useful threads.
The 'Café' kind of forum is a nice idea too, to me it sounds a lot like the general discussion forum but still, the mods should do anything to keep the good discussions going.
Going back to the dark lurking around, WAITING for the good stuff without acting like a 12yo, and I'll give some money for the hard work, whatever i can give, until then keep up the good work guys
I started reading on XDA since 2 weeks when I bought my first droid phone (the X10 obviously ). This is my first post though because for every question I had i was able to find the answer in the forums.
The real PITA was when I started reading the rooting and custom rom dev threads where seriously 80% of the posters are either off topic, flaming or simply asking questions that already have been asked AND answered earlier.
As previous poster said I wouldn't mind that mods would apply temp bans to flamers and off topic poster or even perm bans when people continue to do so.
I did read in another x10 subforum that there was a X10 mod appointed (dunno if there are more than one), but unfortunately haven't seen much of that person specifically on those rooting and rom dev threads where they would have been most wanted.
It is nice to see that you are now taking the time to get something constructive going on. Regarding current topics it probably will be too much effort cleaning those up so it might be better to simply close those topics, start new ones and apply some stricter modding on those (including the temp/perm bans).
I sure would love to see the x10 devs coming back to these forums to discuss there progress on the X10 rooting for example, but they won't unless something is really done against these unnecesarry flaming/off topic/unnecesarry questions posts.
Regards,
Stephan
PS as soon as I have something in my paypal account again I will donate something towards this forum for the good work you guys are doing
we are too many, so dont blame anybody... things are like they're
FRiKiNFRoG said:
imo this forums needs some temp/permanent banning, plain and simple. I read threads here every day since I have the x10, and I have to agree with many people here, some users just don't understand patience, don't understand how to use the search options and then they have to cry out loud for something they want now but they cannot provide any help so they keep posting useless replies in every 'used to be' useful threads.
The 'Café' kind of forum is a nice idea too, to me it sounds a lot like the general discussion forum but still, the mods should do anything to keep the good discussions going.
Going back to the dark lurking around, WAITING for the good stuff without acting like a 12yo, and I'll give some money for the hard work, whatever i can give, until then keep up the good work guys
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+1 here also i feel that you are talking about me
guys.. what i see here is that you people are posting suggestions rather than problems.
regarding feelings abt hoss_n2, this is what i analysed.
Hoss_n2 seems to be clean at heart and intentions but the wording he uses are kinda direct and might make sumone feel he is demanding. but guys as long as intentions are not wrong no need to attack him..
more over by pointing out that hoss_n2 is doing this, this and bla bla you people too are flaming and remember these forum rules apply to you aswell..
so please keep your calm and help people rather than critisize them.
on the rooting forum i will be deleting all the posts not related to rooting..
cheers..
cvchetan said:
guys.. what i see here is that you people are posting suggestions rather than problems.
regarding feelings abt hoss_n2, this is what i analysed.
Hoss_n2 seems to be clean at heart and intentions but the wording he uses are kinda direct and might make sumone feel he is demanding. but guys as long as intentions are not wrong no need to attack him..
more over by pointing out that hoss_n2 is doing this, this and bla bla you people too are flaming and remember these forum rules apply to you aswell..
so please keep your calm and help people rather than critisize them.
on the rooting forum i will be deleting all the posts not related to rooting..
cheers..
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thanks allot you are the only one here that understands me right . may be i cannot say what i really mean with writing as english is not my main language , but they don't give me any chance . sorry for going out of topic but i wanted to illustrate my point . good luck cleaning
I'm not pointing at anyone in particular as I only read threads and rarely look at who posted. My point wasn't to accuse anyone. But warning to off topics and complainers should be sent, failing to change their behavior should lead to more action.
Yes these are more suggestions than issues we have, but I think most of the people know what are the issues. The main one being 'talking in a thread about anything'. Most of the useful threads have a self-explanatory title, reading the original post usually tells a user where he wants to go with the thread he created.
I know some might 'sound' harsh or rude but personally I don't really mind that as long as it does not become a flaming war/troll feeding discussion. But keeping a discussion on the right direction is probably the most important thing in such a huge forum. Then the search tool comes handy when the discussion is going one way.
Warning/temp/perm banning. Sending public message to people saying 'please stop' is not going to work. A temp ban with a nice message included stating what he did wrong should be effective in most cases. Failing to comply after 'x' warnings/temp ban, bye bye we do not need you (They can still read threads, they'll just stop posting what devs don't need).
I'm not pissed or angry at anyone, I'm just one of those people who thinks that moderation is important. The easier/cleaner it is for everyone, the faster we'll get the good news/progress. This site is one big community, let's make it look good/the best there is.
well.. right now m cleaning up threads and rest assured that all off topic posts, flames wars will be stopped from now on..
lets get ourselves together and make this forum productive..
cheers
Maybe issue warning on some fanatic on this forum, some people are extremely rude for no reason, acting like their keyboard and mouse give them God like power.
Realize lots of people have limited knowledge and are trying to get some information. When you see the reaction of some user…bashing on them saying search first idiot there a post about it .Maybe you should realize some of them just don’t know what they have to search. Why not just point them in the proper direction and help them , it would make this forum way more attractive.
Cnrl said:
Maybe issue warning on some fanatic on this forum, some people are extremely rude for no reason, acting like their keyboard and mouse give them God like power.
Realize lots of people have limited knowledge and are trying to get some information. When you see the reaction of some user…bashing on them saying search first idiot there a post about it .Maybe you should realize some of them just don’t know what they have to search. Why not just point them in the proper direction and help them , it would make this forum way more attractive.
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you are right i see this usless replies not only here but on all forums ,why don't he just tell the answer ,new members don't think about search they are still new when i was juinor member i faced allot of these replies . if any body don't want to help just don't reply
Pointing the right direction if you can yes, not answering like an a**hole to a newcomer yes. But there is nothing wrong about telling them politely to search, we might know there is a thread on a subject, but pointing them to the right direction is also searching for them in some/most cases. All forums work pretty much the same, joining one means learning how to use it/navigate it.
Search is the biggest tool there is on the internet. This is how you find what you want, this is how you find answers. Internet is full of it. The faster you start, the more stuff you'll get out of it.
BTW: Answering like a a**hole to a newcomer is also worthy of warnings and ban. It's part of the issue too.
I'm all about common sense.
You can generally class users in 3 categories. The devs, the supporters, and the noobs. The devs are resourceful enough to not care, because they'll always find a way to get things done. The supporters have kinda a clue about what's going on, and are always trying to enforce rules to keep the noobs in order. The noobs almost always assume a hierarchy of power, try to suck up, seek attention, and post ridiculous amounts of crap to get out of trouble/sound smart/kiss ass.
So understanding this dynamics, devs really don't care about flaming and junk, they just want to get product out. Supporters need to learn to refrain, not feed the troll and stop thinking they are better than noobs. Noobs usually just chat amongst themselves if left alone, and are mostly harmless.
The only thing that need to happen here is a set of clear guidelines for noobs to read about when to post, where to post, and when not to post. Also, clean up the place from its state now so people don't get the idea that it's okay to post crap. Maybe a reminder (after submission of a post) for users with low post count to remind them useless junk are indeed useless and bin-worthy.
I am so feed up with people on this board that think they are entitled and better than us to ask a question that has been asked a million times, instead of searching. It is only getting worse. Now that leakers have root, ppl from androidforum (where the mods treat them like babies and shield them) are flooding this forum with repeated threads and posts. We are not helping them by answering the questions for them. We need to stop this! I for one will no longer give the answer after a smart @$$ reply. I will only leave the smart @$$ comment in.
For those that are lazy and read this. Why do you think you are better than any of us that use search, trial and error? If yuo dont understand it, and cant search, then dont do it. Plain and simple.
I'd say don't answer them. I myself am not educated at all in rooting and could answer a decent amount of questions I see.
So....rather than looking up their question to see if they could have done the same thing previous to them making a new thread....don't
By doing this we'll at least take some slack off from the moderators from closing unnecessary threads bashing foolish OP's....and instead let them focus on real questions and site maintenance. I feel doing otherwise will lead to more silly threads and more attention to these threads a.k.a. bashing them you know.
Also we need not let this thread turn into ANYTHING like XDA vs. androidforums because it still is a teaching/learning community, some people just need to work/search harder before they make threads.
cpupeli1 said:
I'd say don't answer them. I myself am not educated at all in rooting and could answer a decent amount of questions I see.
So....rather than looking up their question to see if they could have done the same thing previous to them making a new thread....don't
By doing this we'll at least take some slack off from the moderators from closing unnecessary threads bashing foolish OP's....and instead let them focus on real questions and site maintenance. I feel doing otherwise will lead to more silly threads and more attention to these threads a.k.a. bashing them you know.
Also we need not let this thread turn into ANYTHING like XDA vs. androidforums because it still is a teaching/learning community, some people just need to work/search harder before they make threads.
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I am not trying to make it a af vs xda. Was just giving an example of how things are there. Whole point of my rant/post was people need to search and ppl need to stop helping ppl that dont search. But just putting that wouldnt have felt better after typing.
I am totally with you droidkevlar. I am no senior member or dev or anything like that. I'm just a regular user who is fortunate enough to have devs like you working to make our phones great. I posted this in a thanks thread, but I suppose I could have posted a new thread like you did.
Also, I just want to stress the importance of SEARCHING AND READING!!!! I made the mistake early on of just either creating a new thread or posting in the wrong thread just so I wouldn't have to read to find the answer. THAT WAS FREAKIN STUPID ON MY PART!!! I wish I would have just read up on everything I wanted to know in the beginning. I would have saved myself a ton of headaches and resets. I would have also learned more than what I know now. I now know that if I want to ask a question, to just search for it first. I can't count the times that someone else has asked the same questions that have been answered countless times. And if I'm wanting to try a script, or change my lock screen or something along those lines, IT HELPS TO READ ALL OF THE POSTS IN THAT PARTICULAR THREAD particularly because most likely, someone with your setup has encountered some sort of problem, did some troubleshooting, and posted a fix for it.
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the new guys need to stop posting help threads in the dev forum for one.
I don't see a huge problem if its kept to the general section. Maybe even a sticky thread for newbies where they can see links to threads for most commonly asked questions and they can post some questions in that thread only.
This way it keeps it all compartmentalized and separated from the rest of the forum. We can direct all the new guys there. If any of the more experienced guys who want to help, they can do so in that thread only.
I understand how too many newbs can clutter up a forum pretty quick. But a lot of this stuff even after searching and reading still leaves a lot of questions, until you absorb the whole concept of this phone/os/rooting culture.
If we don't help some of the new users, we will end up with more threads about how they bricked their phones and then the real flame wars will start.
Keep it in one area. It has to be dealt with, we can't ignore them. We all gain if we share some knowledge, but lay down some ground rules beforehand.
Jp50 said:
the new guys need to stop posting help threads in the dev forum for one.
I don't see a huge problem if its kept to the general section. Maybe even a sticky thread for newbies where they can see links to threads for most commonly asked questions and they can post some questions in that thread only.
This way it keeps it all compartmentalized and separated from the rest of the forum. We can direct all the new guys there. If any of the more experienced guys who want to help, they can do so in that thread only.
I understand how too many newbs can clutter up a forum pretty quick. But a lot of this stuff even after searching and reading still leaves a lot of questions, until you absorb the whole concept of this phone/os/rooting culture.
If we don't help some of the new users, we will end up with more threads about how they bricked their phones and then the real flame wars will start.
Keep it in one area. It has to be dealt with, we can't ignore them. We all gain if we share some knowledge, but lay down some ground rules beforehand.
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I agree 100%. I was a newb before. But I always search first before posting. Even to this day, I 2X to make sure I searched correctly before posting on here.
droidkevlar said:
I agree 100%. I was a newb before. But I always search first before posting. Even to this day, I 2X to make sure I searched correctly before posting on here.
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you were a big help to me and without you i would be s.o.l.
the newbie thing isn't going away and dealing with it in a way that satisfies everyone makes the most sense.
I learned alot in the last few weeks. I pretty much spend all my time here now. I'm willing to help with some basic rooting tips for any of the real new guys.
You were right, this phone will consume your life!
I has a question.
What is rootz? and hows to I gets it??
No thanks. I've been using the internet long enough to know that people don't change and that being a **** about things doesn't help anyone. I'd rather actually provide something for the community other than "USE THE SEARCH" and tell them what they need to know while reminding them that the search function would have just saved everyone the time.
If you really care that much don't go into their topics, this is hardly a bustling forum with a thousand posts an hour clogging the thing, a few **** topics where someone gets confused really has no effect on us. YES they should learn, but like I said being a **** does nothing about it.
My 2 cents.
P.S. I love your themes.
P.S.S. I always used the search lol
Hungry Man said:
No thanks. I've been using the internet long enough to know that people don't change and that being a **** about things doesn't help anyone. I'd rather actually provide something for the community other than "USE THE SEARCH" and tell them what they need to know while reminding them that the search function would have just saved everyone the time.
If you really care that much don't go into their topics, this is hardly a bustling forum with a thousand posts an hour clogging the thing, a few **** topics where someone gets confused really has no effect on us. YES they should learn, but like I said being a **** does nothing about it.
My 2 cents.
P.S. I love your themes.
P.S.S. I always used the search lol
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Check out Kaosfroyo thread....now tell me that out of those 4k+ post, 1k or so isnt dumb questions being asked over and over and over. That is just 1 thread. They feel entitled and dont want to search. Its the same kids that blamed devs for them putting leak on their phones and not letting them have root until now. This was more of a rant more than anything. As I have grown feed up with reading the same thing over and over and over and over. Perfect example is my threads. Even though in big, bold, red letters saying dont flash via recovery my MM's, they complain. I mean, its plain as day and they still screw it up.
And thanks for liking my theme. Only reason I made a Froyo one is so many liked the OG Kevlar Mash.
KF as an example, half the posts in that topic if not more are literally just spam or talking about random ****. I don't care because whatever people are having a nice chat but if anything that's even worse because it's absolutely irrellevant to the topic. Like I said, I've got no problem with it and am up for a chat any time.
But I see what you're saying. There is a difference though between asking legitimate questions that can be answered with a search and asking dumb questions that have been answered right there in the topic, no search even required. There really isn't any excuse when people ask questions that are answered right in the first post. I hate all of the posts in the dev stick where it plainly says "DO NOT POST IN HERE UNLESS YOU ARE MAKING A SUGGESTION" and three people so far have actually posted there just asking random questions... it's a bit ridiculous.
I just feel like rather than telling someone off for asking a question it's best to just educate them and let them know how to use a forum. Not everyone is used to being on a forum after all.
Hungry Man said:
I just feel like rather than telling someone off for asking a question it's best to just educate them and let them know how to use a forum. Not everyone is used to being on a forum after all.
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I both agree and disagree with the arguments made here. Personally, I don't ask too many questions because I try to conduct thorough research on my own knowing that somewhere someone else has asked the question before and it must be answered somehow (which is why I don't post too much). I'm horrible at using the forum search, though. Google is much better and it will actually bring up XDA and AF forum posts in the search (amongst other items and forums so that's my search of choice).
Some people are not quite as "internet savvy" and I agree that many are lazy, however personally I think if you can't perform a simple google search you have no business messing with technology at all.
I understand people want to learn and sometimes if you're just starting out you don't know where to start in which case a simple tactfully answered question with a push in the right direction towards research resources would be much more appropriate than "use the search, newb" but generally you can differentiate those with a genuine willingness & aptitude to learn & who may just need some guidance, and those who are just too ignorant or lazy to guide themselves.
That's just my $0.02.
It doesn't matter how many times you tell people to search. If your on any forum at all there are always going to be lots of people posting multiple threads that have already been answered. I'm not saying its ok just inevitable.
Sent from my leaked rooted HTC Droid Eris with Sense-Able 3.1 using Swype
I am pretty much on the same page with digitaljeannie on this one. However, a lot of us gloss over the fact that a lot of people just don't know how to search for stuff, or are just absolutely not tech savvy at all. The idea of trying to do anything outside of "the norm" on something phone or computer oriented scares them. If computers are confusing to you, the last thing you want to do is start messing with programs and such that can potentially make your phone inoperable. I walked a gentleman through the process of rooting, and he absolutely could not take a step without me telling him what to do. He wasn't even sure what a zip file was, so trying to do command line prompts pretty much terrified him without someone being there to tell him what to put in, baby step, by baby step. Now, just because he was clueless, doesn't mean he shouldn't enjoy being rooted. Also, being good at searching for stuff is a skill that a lot of you might not even realize you are good at, as it seems natural. However, I have came across quite a few people who are intelligent in other things, but can't find stuff online worth a hoot. I'm often going behind people who say I can't find this info on such and such, and I'll have it in like 10 minutes. Sure there are tons of lazy people who want you to do the work, but it's a shame to paint the same broad stroke for everyone...
I don't think it's really fair to say "If you can't do one thing you shouldn't do the other." I mean I can barely manage a google maps search to get where I want to go but I can do minor programming and know more about hardware than anyone else I know. People shouldn't be stuck with an unrooted eris ever lol and whether they are into computers or not they should have the right to root it and use the phone the way they want to.
not for nothin..... this is the 4th seperate "rant" post Ive read this week on this very topic......... physician heal thyself
While all of you make very good points. I just feel like if they cant search or are too scared, then maybe like the other 70%+ people that dont root their phone, they shouldnt either. And if they complain about its functions, then they shouldnt have bought the phone. Get an iPhone or BlackBerry. Android OS is meant for tech savy ppl IMO. I love Android more than my wife but at work when they asked what phones to get, I said iPhone. Just because users here are not very smart...even thought they have PhD's, lol
I think the idea that Android OS is for the tech savy only is a bit of a dangerous rumor that's pretty unjustified. I went from not having any smartphone to going to android 1.6 and it really is quite userfriendly. Tap icon to open, tap and hold for more options, tap and drag to move; these are the basic movements that set the stage for the entire phone, there's nothing fancy.
Apple basically puts out to web blogs (*cough gizmodo endgadget cough*) these rumors that Android OS is far less user friendly than iOS but really anyone can figure it out very quickly.
iPhones are simpler only in the sense that they treat their users with super kiddy gloves, no true multitasking, one button, very simple functionality by removing complex functionality. But if you're an unrooted android user there's really very little you can do to mess up your phone that you could not already do to your iphone.
Hungry Man said:
I think the idea that Android OS is for the tech savy only is a bit of a dangerous rumor that's pretty unjustified. I went from not having any smartphone to going to android 1.6 and it really is quite userfriendly. Tap icon to open, tap and hold for more options, tap and drag to move; these are the basic movements that set the stage for the entire phone, there's nothing fancy.
Apple basically puts out to web blogs (*cough gizmodo endgadget cough*) these rumors that Android OS is far less user friendly than iOS but really anyone can figure it out very quickly.
iPhones are simpler only in the sense that they treat their users with super kiddy gloves, no true multitasking, one button, very simple functionality by removing complex functionality. But if you're an unrooted android user there's really very little you can do to mess up your phone that you could not already do to your iphone.
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Let me re-word that. The ERIS is for more of the tech savy. Reason I say that is because it is kind of a slow phone stock. Once rooted, bloatware removed and OC'd, it rocks.
I gotcha =p
Sorry I missed the town hall meeting. I am a noob to Roms and phone moding, I did do a lot with the original xbox back when it was fun to mod. Ok a little off toppic.
One thing that noticed you never looked at is where are your noobs (me) comming in to your site? I have only been looking at roms for about a week. All of the searches that I did about roms and rooting my phone all led me to the "The Bible" and yes where is that located at. Most people will post there they find the information. You might look at moving that post to the general tab as this is going to be one of the first places that a person is going to look to first.
This will also be a place that a noob is going to post so dumb question for the 1,000,000th time. If you expect it, it will not be a bad thing.
And yes I did to a bad flash and spent about 5 hours looking for a way to fix what I did.
Thanks for your time and have a great day/night
Good point. I myself was thinking when I first started to look into flashing ROMs and such and found the bible in the Dev section. The Vibrant Bible has lots of information and should probably be in the General Section as it does draw people to the Dev section instead of General.
Maybe it should be in the Q&A forum as it has lots of both.
One of the biggest problems with this forum seems to be that for a development forum, there is very little actual development going on. Obviously only a select group of people have the knowledge and desire to truly develop custom ROMs, but there's a role others can take too.
I've been involved in other development communities, outside of Android, and I can't recall a community as poisonous as this one. The amount of high level technical discussion is nill. As inexperienced as I am with Android, I can't remember the last post that sent me running to google to read more about something. There seems to be little to no give-and-take between developers, which is typically the most fun of any development group I've been a part of. The goal of working towards any common framework seems non-existant.
The supporters of certain ROMs resemble cults more than critical, helpful users. I can't count the amount of replies I've seen to legitimate questions or criticisms saying nothing more than, "Developer X puts in all this time, so you should just be thankful", or some iteration of that. While possibly true, that's the type of worthless hero worship that provides nothing in a community like this.
Even the individual developer forums are worthless. They're 75% "you're awesome" posts, with the other 25% being bug reports.
Obviously the popularity of XDA has made it a destination for simple support posts in addition to development discussion. I guess that's frustrating, but can be handled through moderation. I know on other forums, if I had nothing to do, I'd sit in the help section and answer posts for a couple hours. I'm sure we've all posted on other forums and received helped we're thankful for. Certainly the level of douchebagery that half the users here show isn't needed.
I don't know. Maybe all Android communities are like this. The fragmentation of the development, even on one divice, definitely doesn't help. But it's not the most enjoyable place to read I've ever found.
This is all you need to know:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9831517&postcount=3
The town hall closed too soon, closed 5pm eastern time. Sucks for us on the west coast. I was actually typing and clicked send when I noticed the forum already was closed.
scrizz said:
This is all you need to know:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9831517&postcount=3
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I am sorry that is not all that I needed to know. This was a post for an idea that was not brough up in the town hall. yes I did read the full town hall and no it was never said in the full thread. So before you give a link please make sure of the Question.
That is another reason that you get people pissed off. You have people say "this is all that I need to know" but they did not even look at the full question. This was not a question of what happened in the town hall. It was more like please think of this.
The Bilble thread is a great place for people that are new to star reading about what to do and what not to do. but it really does not have a thing to do about develement.
Thanks for all the other posters I enjoyed the coments.
It seems like every other posted question or comment lately is answered with a smart ass remark or the op is insulted for an honest mistake or posting a question that they didnt realize had already been asked. Yes we know we need to read before posting. Sometimes people just want to ask the question from their point of view. If half of the replies would be helpful answers instead of insulting comments the forums wouldnt get jammed up with "repeat questions". For the most part people seem cool on here and Im just wondering what some others think of this?
Get your flame suit on cause you're about to get toasted for this thread.
But I agree with you. I'm kinda tired of the attitude here but this has been my home for 2 years and I don't plan on leaving. I wish people would drop the attitudes and be more helpful sometimes. It is what it is though. I just turn a blind eye to it.
Cheers
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
I dont care about being flamed. I see others get flamed all the time on here. If someone is going to post another smart ass comment to my post then they should not bother. I understand people are people and I am not going anywhere either. But it just gets old...
I've noticed, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems as though our forum is slowly starting to turn into most others I've seen. Let's hope it doesn't get worse.
There is absolutely no use in the way some people respond. For some reason, they don't seem to realize that the time they wasted on creating a snarky remark took up more time than just passing the thread by. Usually, someone will be kind enough to provide help or direction. I understand the frustration some times, and think users should be educated on how to go about finding information that already exists. BUT, when it's done with an unnecessary attitude, or worse, attitude is given with no useful help, it accomplishes nothing. It creates an atmosphere that doesn't lend itself to building our community.
I'm normally really quiet on here unless I have some constructive comment or help those that are in need who really need it.
But, the main problem for all the noob question is the lack of direction for noobs to find the info they really need to seek out. Common problem on any type of forum, but is part of how community forums work. Microsoft's community does a good job in controlling this with great help with constructive help on posts given by the moderators and links from others who shared the same type of problem.
Just my 2 pence worth.
Simba501 said:
I've noticed, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems as though our forum is slowly starting to turn into most others I've seen. Let's hope it doesn't get worse.
There is absolutely no use in the way some people respond. For some reason, they don't seem to realize that the time they wasted on creating a snarky remark took up more time than just passing the thread by. Usually, someone will be kind enough to provide help or direction. I understand the frustration some times, and think users should be educated on how to go about finding information that already exists. BUT, when it's done with an unnecessary attitude, or worse, attitude is given with no useful help, it accomplishes nothing. It creates an atmosphere that doesn't lend itself to building our community.
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You just hit the nail on the head!
capathy21 said:
It seems like every other posted question or comment lately is answered with a smart ass remark or the op is insulted for an honest mistake or posting a question that they didnt realize had already been asked. Yes we know we need to read before posting. Sometimes people just want to ask the question from their point of view. If half of the replies would be helpful answers instead of insulting comments the forums wouldnt get jammed up with "repeat questions". For the most part people seem cool on here and Im just wondering what some others think of this?
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The reason is that XDA is traditionally a DEVELOPER forum. Not a CONSUMER forum.
Yes, the original purpose of XDA has expanded, however back in the day, this site was mostly focused on technical issues. Rather than asking a simple and probably already answered question, *everyone* searched and searched again to find an answer. And if that didn't work, it was preferably to PM someone a question over starting a whole thread titled: "X thing that I'm trying to do doesn't work. Please help me!!! Sorry I'm a n00b!!!"".
There are no "stupid" question per se (though really, some folks around here push that boundary to its absolute limit), but there are plenty of already answered questions floating around. Even the OP's question/comment has been addressed millions of times before around here. Experienced XDA users get annoyed when people ask those same questions over and over again. And even though everyone says "I searched but couldn't find an answer for X", usually that's not really true. They may have quickly tried a single search term in the Vbulletin search, then probably gave up. They almost certainly haven't read the official XDA rules, and certainly haven't tried creative ways of finding the answer they are looking for.
This IS A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY. If you can't be bothered to try more than a few minutes of searching, then you are lazy, and it's not really worth the time of others to respond. Hence the flaming, and the anger, and the people attacking n00bs for already-answered questions. This is not a "community support forum" for those people who just picked up a new device and what to "r00tz that ****z" so they can play pirated games and tether for free. This is a community for people to work together on technical aspects of our amazing devices, and squeeze every drop of power from the silicon/glass/plastic devices we all love so much. Yes, people are people, not everyone will search properly, and yes, the majority user-base of XDA has changed a lot over the past 3-4 years. That doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want and not follow the clearly posted XDA rules. And it doesn't mean you have the right to post threads of "OMFG I can't believe how mean all these people who donate their time for free to the community are". Get over it. If you want to idly chat and whine about this that and the other, there are plenty of other places on the internet to do that. XDA is not the place.
Originally, there was very little hostility around XDA over stupid or silly threads. This was because they were so rare, and were often honest mistakes. I don't want to read about your whining and complaining about people being mean. You're right, I *could* just skip over the thread and not say anything (which, undoubtedly, many folks are given the responses so far). But you posted it in the Galaxy S2 i777 General Forum. This thread has nothing to do with the i777 GS2. Whine elsewhere, or be flamed. That's the long and short of it.
Good luck and welcome to XDA!
I have noticed this and commented on it in other threads also. The forum has went to **** the past few months.
I have been on this account for almost 3 years on here and 2 before that with another account so i have seen the changes. The reason there are so many newbs and questions is because Android and tablet use has exploded in the past year and half.
Sent from my SGH-I897 using xda premium
Agreed with OP, I am an active member on the NOOKcolor forum and I've tried to help newbies over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Yes, today newbie A asks a question, next week, newbie B ask the same question, and so on. Not only me but entire XDA members in NC room politely answering all and guide them through each step. Coming into this SGS2 room, geez, reading posts/responses really disappointed. Developers are great but power users seem to be God and expect every newbie has to know before asking. Duh, really?
I don't know if before they know about those stuff, when they were still newbie, didn't anyone showed them nicely step by step or just yelled at them like they do now
People can be assholes. Yes, most of the time it is uncalled for. i try to help when I can, because I hope someone will help me when I need it. But, at the same time, people need to learn to try to help themselves. See my sig.
We were all newbs at one point - even still, it's expected that everyone, newb and veteran alike are to read the rules and use the search function.
It's all well and good that someone makes an honest mistake by posting the same threads over again, but when it happens by every Joe Blow that comes in here, two or more times a week, and there's already 10 threads on the same topic, and said person never thought to use the search function, has **** grammar and syntax even asking their question or making a "Galaxy S II vs. ?" for the 18th time, it pisses those of us off that actually used our brain when we came here.
See, you got it all wrong: XDA wasn't made for you and I - it is a DEVELOPER'S forum. They were kind enough to let the average user sign up, expecting us to be knowledgeable enough not to be asshats that make a hundred of the same threads. Being self-entitled, thinking that the users who want to keep the developers actually developing, not answering bull**** questions for the 15th time are in the wrong for being firm, even harsh with people that don't, then there's the door. You either help the developers or get out of the way. If the developers or power users are kind enough to help answer certain questions once or twice, then count it as a blessing. DON'T even get mad when those people are then annoyed because the newb doesn't abide by rules or use their brain.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
votinh said:
Agreed with OP, I am an active member on the NOOKcolor forum and I've tried to help newbies over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Yes, today newbie A asks a question, next week, newbie B ask the same question, and so on. Not only me but entire XDA members in NC room politely answering all and guide them through each step. Coming into this SGS2 room, geez, reading posts/responses really disappointed. Developers are great but power users seem to be God and expect every newbie has to know before asking. Duh, really?
I don't know if before they know about those stuff, when they were still newbie, didn't anyone showed them nicely step by step or just yelled at them like they do now
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When I was a n00b I read XDA for hours and hours before I would consider posting. And I tried very hard to read as much as possible before asking questions. That's how a n00b becomes a power user. By learning on their own. Plus, if asked with humility, and a sincere effort to "search before posting", you'll find people tend to not actually get flamed. It's only when people express their feeling of entitlement to an answer they could have probably discovered themselves that problems begin to brew...
Shammyh said:
The reason is that XDA is traditionally a DEVELOPER forum. Not a CONSUMER forum.
Yes, the original purpose of XDA has expanded, however back in the day, this site was mostly focused on technical issues. Rather than asking a simple and probably already answered question, *everyone* searched and searched again to find an answer. And if that didn't work, it was preferably to PM someone a question over starting a whole thread titled: "X thing that I'm trying to do doesn't work. Please help me!!! Sorry I'm a n00b!!!"".
There are no "stupid" question per se (though really, some folks around here push that boundary to its absolute limit), but there are plenty of already answered questions floating around. Even the OP's question/comment has been addressed millions of times before around here. Experienced XDA users get annoyed when people ask those same questions over and over again. And even though everyone says "I searched but couldn't find an answer for X", usually that's not really true. They may have quickly tried a single search term in the Vbulletin search, then probably gave up. They almost certainly haven't read the official XDA rules, and certainly haven't tried creative ways of finding the answer they are looking for.
This IS A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY. If you can't be bothered to try more than a few minutes of searching, then you are lazy, and it's not really worth the time of others to respond. Hence the flaming, and the anger, and the people attacking n00bs for already-answered questions. This is not a "community support forum" for those people who just picked up a new device and what to "r00tz that ****z" so they can play pirated games and tether for free. This is a community for people to work together on technical aspects of our amazing devices, and squeeze every drop of power from the silicon/glass/plastic devices we all love so much. Yes, people are people, not everyone will search properly, and yes, the majority user-base of XDA has changed a lot over the past 3-4 years. That doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want and not follow the clearly posted XDA rules. And it doesn't mean you have the right to post threads of "OMFG I can't believe how mean all these people who donate their time for free to the community are". Get over it. If you want to idly chat and whine about this that and the other, there are plenty of other places on the internet to do that. XDA is not the place.
Originally, there was very little hostility around XDA over stupid or silly threads. This was because they were so rare, and were often honest mistakes. I don't want to read about your whining and complaining about people being mean. You're right, I *could* just skip over the thread and not say anything (which, undoubtedly, many folks are given the responses so far). But you posted it in the Galaxy S2 i777 General Forum. This thread has nothing to do with the i777 GS2. Whine elsewhere, or be flamed. That's the long and short of it.
Good luck and welcome to XDA!
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I did not post this to "whine". I posted it because if I am reading something I get sick of smart ass responses. It may have been a developer only forum at one time but it no longer is. I along with many other people here are in no way developers, but know a little bit about it compared to the average joe and want to learn more. I greatly appreciate the hard working devs who donate their time and genius minds so that we can get the most out of our devices. Its not my first rodeo on a device forum by any means. They are designed for people to help others and learn. There is no place for the attitude. Period.
Shammyh said:
The reason is that XDA is traditionally a DEVELOPER forum. Not a CONSUMER forum.
This IS A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.
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I've been on XDA for a little over a year, I think...ever since I got the captivate. I think I may have 1 or 2 posts in the development forum and 10 or 11 in the general forums. I have spent countless hours searching, reading, searching some more and reading some more until I got the answer I needed for my particular question. Almost 100% of the issues people ask about have been answered before.
That said, I think you're off of on a couple of your bolded comments. This is just as much of a consumer forum as it is a developers forum. The developers themselves have made it that way.
Nearly all google searches about android issues point to some XDA thread. Developers work hard and are often times compensated for their work (donations.) Although, I do not think the main driving force for their hard work is donations. They do it because they love it and they want to share their work with the CONSUMERS that frequent this site.
Flaming an unsuspecting consumer, who may not have done enough research on their own, into oblivion only has negative effects. That person may be a donator that decides to leave, for example. I've used the forum search on a number of occasions and to be honest, it is quite cumbersome...there is just so much data to go through. That doesn't stop me but it is quite frustrating some times.
I think a more effective strategy for dealing with consumers, who may not be as diligent at researching as most, would be to simply ignore the post. This will force them to do more research on their own. Now, you have a user who does more research on their own and you don't look like a ****.
Flaming is pointless. Those that do it are jerks.
Shammyh said:
When I was a n00b I read XDA for hours and hours before I would consider posting. And I tried very hard to read as much as possible before asking questions. That's how a n00b becomes a power user. By learning on their own. Plus, if asked with humility, and a sincere effort to "search before posting", you'll find people tend to not actually get flamed. It's only when people express their feeling of entitlement to an answer they could have probably discovered themselves that problems begin to brew...
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Yup, in addition to one of the links in my sig being STRONGLY recommended reading:
Whenever I purchase a device, I always spend at least an hour or two a day for 2-3 days reading the forums for that device to learn its ins and outs before I post ANYTHING. Actually, in many cases, I do that before even purchasing.
XDA has clearly stated rules, and Rule #1 is to search before posting. In addition, any new users has to watch the infamous "Noob on XDA" video as part of the registration process now.
So there is NO excuse for not searching. Especially when a user posts a new thread with:
1) A question from the FAQ - it is there for a reason
2) A question that has already been covered in MULTIPLE topics that are still on the first 1-2 pages of the forum. It takes 30 seconds to skim through a page of thread titles - but users insist that someone else spend 2-3 minutes digging up a thread for them instead of spending a minute to read thread titles.
Yes, sometimes we can spend almost as much time on the flame - but at least that lets us relieve our stress at yet another user who thinks they deserve special treatment and doesn't have to follow the rules.
Edit: As to just ignoring a post - A user that didn't bother to search won't go away. They'll do something even more annoying like creating yet another NEW thread, posting a thread in Development because it wasn't answered in General or Q&A, or bumping their thread after only 12 hours. They only way they'll learn any lesson is to get a little toasty.
While donations are nice, the kind of user who comes with the kind of sense of self-entitlement that gets them flamed isn't going to donate anyway. Plus I could get quadruple the donations I've received in 3 months, and I'd still wind up with less than half a week's pay at my real job.
The amount of time one will spend searching and reading will be FAR less than the time you waste because you didn't read and screwed something up.
"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for life." (Yeah, I mangled that slightly...)
This is a DEVELOPERS forum, it always has been and always will be. Without developers, it's no different than Android Central or any other forum.
Ok there wouldnt be anyone giving noobs attitude if they just followed the rules. **** they even make you watch a video b4 becoming a member here. If you have a question chances are someone has already asked/answered it. There is a search bar for a reason. USE IT! If not the by all means go ahead and post Im 100% sure you wont get **** for it. They even have a suggested thread dropdown when creating a new one, hoping someone sees that there has already been a threat opened pertaining to that particular subject. Its frustrating to other uzers who read these fourms day in and day out seeing some kid with one post asking the same question someone had already posted 3 times now. simply put quit being lazy and search just like everyone else here has b4 they asked a question.
Shammyh said:
The reason is that XDA is traditionally a DEVELOPER forum. Not a CONSUMER forum.
Yes, the original purpose of XDA has expanded, however back in the day, this site was mostly focused on technical issues. Rather than asking a simple and probably already answered question, *everyone* searched and searched again to find an answer. And if that didn't work, it was preferably to PM someone a question over starting a whole thread titled: "X thing that I'm trying to do doesn't work. Please help me!!! Sorry I'm a n00b!!!"".
There are no "stupid" question per se (though really, some folks around here push that boundary to its absolute limit), but there are plenty of already answered questions floating around. Even the OP's question/comment has been addressed millions of times before around here. Experienced XDA users get annoyed when people ask those same questions over and over again. And even though everyone says "I searched but couldn't find an answer for X", usually that's not really true. They may have quickly tried a single search term in the Vbulletin search, then probably gave up. They almost certainly haven't read the official XDA rules, and certainly haven't tried creative ways of finding the answer they are looking for.
This IS A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY. If you can't be bothered to try more than a few minutes of searching, then you are lazy, and it's not really worth the time of others to respond. Hence the flaming, and the anger, and the people attacking n00bs for already-answered questions. This is not a "community support forum" for those people who just picked up a new device and what to "r00tz that ****z" so they can play pirated games and tether for free. This is a community for people to work together on technical aspects of our amazing devices, and squeeze every drop of power from the silicon/glass/plastic devices we all love so much. Yes, people are people, not everyone will search properly, and yes, the majority user-base of XDA has changed a lot over the past 3-4 years. That doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want and not follow the clearly posted XDA rules. And it doesn't mean you have the right to post threads of "OMFG I can't believe how mean all these people who donate their time for free to the community are". Get over it. If you want to idly chat and whine about this that and the other, there are plenty of other places on the internet to do that. XDA is not the place.
Originally, there was very little hostility around XDA over stupid or silly threads. This was because they were so rare, and were often honest mistakes. I don't want to read about your whining and complaining about people being mean. You're right, I *could* just skip over the thread and not say anything (which, undoubtedly, many folks are given the responses so far). But you posted it in the Galaxy S2 i777 General Forum. This thread has nothing to do with the i777 GS2. Whine elsewhere, or be flamed. That's the long and short of it.
Good luck and welcome to XDA!
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And it's the responses like this that go on this 'better than you' mentality trip that are starting to make it not as enjoyable. It's a crock of crap. XDA wouldn't be as big as it is had it stayed strictly a developer community. And the devs wouldn't get as many donations either. I do agree that there are some that abuse that 'New Thread' button. But in all honesty, the search feature on forums isn't that great. Also, some of the contributing members here didn't start out knowing what they're doing. They aquired that knowledge here. So instead of flaming, giving a [email protected] comment, or telling then how to fix it, why don't more people 'teach them to fish'. I may not know a ton about the SGSII, but I sure try to help anyone I can. I am, however, probably one of the most knowledge people on here when it comes to the automotive field. You can only imagine the crazy stuff people come up with to ask on the auto forums, but I've never just blew them off cause they couldn't find it using search. I've just found it and pointed them the right direction. And if the info isn't out there already, I try to explain to them the mechanics behind it to try to educate them a little more than they already are. I can't stand the ones that just spit out some action to try with no explination as to why to try this or that. At some point, that extra knowledge may come in handy and hopefully save that person some coin on getting their transportation back on the road. So having said that, why don't we all get a long and help each other out? I initialy came here looking for help, but I stuck around because of the great community. I'd hate to see people never come back because of a few people ruining the atmosphere of the community.
bigblue95z said:
And it's the responses like this that go on this 'better than you' mentality trip that are starting to make it not as enjoyable. It's a crock of crap. XDA wouldn't be as big as it is had it stayed strictly a developer community. And the devs wouldn't get as many donations either. I do agree that there are some that abuse that 'New Thread' button. But in all honesty, the search feature on forums isn't that great. Also, some of the contributing members here didn't start out knowing what they're doing. They aquired that knowledge here. So instead of flaming, giving a [email protected] comment, or telling then how to fix it, why don't more people 'teach them to fish'. I may not know a ton about the SGSII, but I sure try to help anyone I can. I am, however, probably one of the most knowledge people on here when it comes to the automotive field. You can only imagine the crazy stuff people come up with to ask on the auto forums, but I've never just blew them off cause they couldn't find it using search. I've just found it and pointed them the right direction. And if the info isn't out there already, I try to explain to them the mechanics behind it to try to educate them a little more than they already are. I can't stand the ones that just spit out some action to try with no explination as to why to try this or that. At some point, that extra knowledge may come in handy and hopefully save that person some coin on getting their transportation back on the road. So having said that, why don't we all get a long and help each other out? I initialy came here looking for help, but I stuck around because of the great community. I'd hate to see people never come back because of a few people ruining the atmosphere of the community.
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Uhh, most of the developers and users here couldn't care less how "big" XDA is. And second, as Entropy512 pointed out, most devs don't care tremendously about donations. Yea, when I really like something, or have some extra cash, I'll kick a developer a few extra bucks. But it's not really about donations or popularity. And I don't think a single Dev here is actually living off of the donations from XDA users...
And further... if you check my post history, you'd see I in fact do try to "teach people to fish" all the time. And more often than not, I'll just answer a n00b question rather than flame. And yes, the Forum search isn't the best, hence why a Google "site:xda-developers.com YourSearchTermHere" is a useful alternative.
XDA is not a n00b friendly forum. If you're a new user looking to learn about Android or phones or whatever for the first time... there are other places to do that. It's called "xda-DEVELOPERS" for a reason.
Devs have holier that thou attitudes. They act like they shouldn't be bothered by stupid nub questions. Yet they feel compelled to answer them and ***** about doing so...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
use the search function and this will not happen.
/thread
So as someone who, like all of you, has to work all day, commute forever back and forth, then spend time with family in the evening, i dont want to have to spend my little free time googling and link hopping looking for often badly written and never complete guides.
If a COMPLETE, SELF-CONTAINED, GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT guide to upgrading my rooted tab s3 from stock nougat to stock oreo and rerooting exists, would someone be so kind as to point me to i? I once had the time to track things down on my own and try to interpret horribly disfigured grammar, but life has entered a phase where i just don't anymore. Any and all help appreciated. THANKS!! {no offense intended - i know for many english is a second language.}
-MIKE
No replies at all? Surely someone can at least give me a start...?
Same question, no answer. And I don't understand, if I need formatting data after flashing full wipe rom via Odin and using patch for verity and encryption when I was already decrypted before, or I don't need to format data again.
Well firstly you may try creating a proper question in the Q&A forum instead of creating a voting thread?
pardon my ignorance, but i have no idea how to create a voting thread, so my doing so was purely by accident. and this forum is called "Samsung Galaxy Tab S3 Questions & Answers" which sounds like a Q&A forum. And i see at least one question mark in what i posted, implying that it is, indeed, a question. Could you be a bit clearer about how this is a 'voting thread', not a question, and not in a Q&A forum? You know, i have a PhD in physics. if you were to post an inadequate question in an improper forum on a physics site, i would explain, fully, what was incorrect, then i'd try to answer your effing question anyway, not give some useless nonsense. I've noticed that as a common difference between physics/science/math forums and pretty much all of the 'computer' related forums I've asked questions in: when the question is 'in the wrong forum' (gasp - end of the world! ) class A tries to be helpful, class B just posts non-info, usually in an insulting way (i appreciate your not doing so). if you know the freakin' answer, why not answer the question, regardless of the forum? sorry for all the blathering, and apologies to the poster, but the information-free answer ticked me off...
that user who gave you some useless nonsense is the main person who provided root for the tab s3. check out his guide.
theres no reason you shouldn't check the original tab s3 root/twrp thread for updates if you rooted the tablet yourself back then
not to be too obvious, but if you'll look at my original post, you'll see i have neither the time nor the inclination to spend an hour (or more) googling/searching forums when the answer to one simple question, which can be given in 30 seconds or less, will get me where i need to be. what is it with this BS refusal to answer a question if you know the answer? 'look it up yourself' - my god, how many person-hours are wasted because you people refuse to answer questions you know the answer to. i knew there was a reason i avoided computer 'science' for real science - we'll answer a question if you ask it, usually in far more detail than you want. (computer 'science' isn't by the way. at best it's trade school.) if the poster you're so gallantly defending is such a diety, why didn't he just answer the bloody question? i'm self-educated and know far more than most of the B.Sc. CS people I've worked with, i just can't stand the thought of banging out code day after day, it's no more than working on a production line. yes - i'm pissed. if you know the answer, answer the damn question! or block me (like it would affect my life at all). Android 8 is still as primitive as Android 7, so i see no real need to change anyway. yeesh.
look - i realize i'm acting like a TOTAL jerk, and i apologize. I've just spent most of my life working with people who are eager to pass along knowledge, and will answer any question when they could easily say 'go figure it out yourself', so i just plain don't get that attitude. i apologize for the attitude in my posts. (to my knowledge, there's no emoji for 'contrite')
This is the only guide to root the tab s3 on oreo: https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-tab-s3/development/recovery-twrp-3-1-0-1-samsung-galaxy-t3581359
but it doesn't fit your criteria of COMPLETE, SELF-CONTAINED, GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT so I don't suggest you use it.
@Msamp Mike -- surely you understand that this is not a shop with tidy shelves, but a messy community of tinkerers and hackers (of the best kind!).
Some develop, some test, and others write. There are few off-the-shelf solutions here, but there's a lot of collaboration and goodwill.
What you're asking for may not exist, but we can create it collectively. I'm planning to go through the update myself. I'll post my experience. You (or anyone else) is welcome to try, comment, and improve!