When will the actual multitouch be available, the dualtouch is pretty annoying. If anyone knows any insight about it we wud all love to know
Thanks!!!
never..... the dual touch is all we're getting
as for as i know dual touch is pretty much enough but i would love it if we had perfect calibration!
cause the axes go the opposite when using dual touch in the ends of the screen
if this is fixed then its great
i think Xperia arc's drivers could be put into our x10 if the bootloader gets cracked that is
Ooo... Bootloader getting cracked is hard but not impossible. If it happens that wud be the best thing possible
andrej456 found a method to replace drivers via kernel modules for X8, originally made to get dualtouch on T-Mobile G1... However, right now it seems that it's working only on X8, because on X10 Mini Pro driver remains loaded in memory.
You can give it a shot on X10 to try to get more than two fingers
It's here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=976948
Basically, place replace piece of code in MT driver and compile it as module with make modules. We still haven't got DT/MT on X8 but andrej is making progress, he's looking at different drivers and tries to make working one for us
due to hardware limitations, we won't have true multitouch.
dualtouch is the best that the hardware allows us to do.
well, the x8 wont work on x10, and i dont want to risk anything on my phone, i have done enough crap on my phone already. i dont want to make it any harder. but i know that it is not impossible, there must be a way, the hardrives that hes looking for, can be taken from the xperia arc. cant it?
Xperia's hardware doesn't support multitouch
sonybose said:
Xperia's hardware doesn't support multitouch
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my X10 using XDA Premium App
Related
MINI PRO seems to have Cypress TrueTouch GEn3 PSoc, that can support more than 2 touchpoint.
I explain more about what should we do to get it work in post 7.
come helping us and We sure can do it.
Thx Shok' xD
can u put it in frand' in french ? xD
there is a real chance to activate MT in changing just the kernel ?
that will be nice someone with more knowledge than me (i don't understand anything about drivers ) can put his hands dirty for us >_<
would be nice actually then i can play some of them HD games which need multi touch
clearpad 2000 is only on mini and don't know what is the solution for mini pro
Great work......can this work on 2.1???
shokmah said:
clearpad 2000 is only on mini and don't know what is the solution for mini pro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if this will help but...
The solution on mini pro seems to be made by cypress
As seen here:
http://www.phonewreck.com/2010/08/05/823/
http://www.phonewreck.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/X10BD12.jpg
yes I found It yesterday too,
diferencies is synaptic/google's prototype driver allow DT but cypress's ctma300 prototype driver just allow single touch, don't have any kind of MT supported.
but in fact, Mini Pro seems to have and Full MT controller (cypress truetouch gen 3).
so there is 1-3 step to get multitouh work on it :
1-change driver by patching or modifying kernel
2-maybe patch Runtimes, libraries and framework if actual versions don't support MT (depend of what does SE developpers)
3-maybe change cypress PSoc firmware if actual don't support multitouch
the paths and files that maybe will interest us :
/sys/bus/serio/
/system/etc/ts_fw_update.sh
/system/etc/firmware/cy8_truetouch_jtouch.hex
/system/etc/firmware/cy8_truetouch_tpk.hex
maybe an custom ROM over actual kernel (customised) is the best way to got it work until bootloader is cracked,but it's not that simple to do it.
everyone can help, we all waiting for you, yes you.
So, the digitizer is capable of handling even more than 2-point multitouch?
Unfortunately, I'm not a dev, so I can't help out with the drivers...
Just thought I could give some light to the situation, I happened to bump on that teardown before reading your thread...
So, is waiting for someone to tweak the kernel all we can do now?
normaly true touch gen 3 is natively "multipoint capable" except if SE tweaked the firmware and remove the feature.
To improve the driver may be the hardest part of the work.
modifying kernel by "insmod" is quite easy but may be Insufficient for what we attempte to do.
Cracking the Bootloader is the best way so we can put our own kernel version, tweaked as we want.
Generation 3 TrueTouch Solutions
> Multi-Touch All-Points Touchscreen Solution with unlimited touches
> TrueTouch™ family’s newest product delivering unparalleled performance
> Critically acclaimed by many large OEM customers
> Ability to track movement of individual fingers
> Best-in-class average power consumption, scan time, refresh rate and accuracy
> Provides the most flexible user-interface design solution
from their website
http://www.cypress.com/?id=1938
SE is stupid why buyin' gen 3 if they don't wanna include multitouch?
axy_david said:
Generation 3 TrueTouch Solutions
> Multi-Touch All-Points Touchscreen Solution with unlimited touches
> TrueTouch™ family’s newest product delivering unparalleled performance
> Critically acclaimed by many large OEM customers
> Ability to track movement of individual fingers
> Best-in-class average power consumption, scan time, refresh rate and accuracy
> Provides the most flexible user-interface design solution
from their website
http://www.cypress.com/?id=1938
SE is stupid why buyin' gen 3 if they don't wanna include multitouch?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Welcome to the wonderful world of Sony Ericsson...
Actually MT may be enabled after all on X10 Mini/Pro because it was stated after it was announced by SE on twitter or something that the X10 will receive 'pinch-zoom'
but SE don't tell anything about mini/pro,before that they said putting MT on mini/pro will decrease user experience beacause of smaller screen size, maybe they thinks peoples will stay on the SE home which not allow anything, by the way making our own Driver will ensure that we can have multitouch or modifiying the firmware will permit us to add some features like new gestures or many other things I, If it's possible peoples will found for what.
EDIT : pinch to zoom is the best for Dualtouch, but we have a Full multitouch screen no limited to 2 fingers
What about if actual drivers support MT but it is disabled in a config file? Maybe we should start searching there before much more complicated driver replacement. =)
What about if actual drivers support MT but it is disabled in a config file? Maybe we should start searching there before much more complicated driver replacement. =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If that were true we would only get dualtouch at most, I believe....
Just like in the big x10... shokmah, is it true that our screens support multitouch? I mean, 10 finger multitouch? Just like the iphone? Oo that would be awesome!!! I'll study this brutally if that's true....
Sent from my E10i using XDA App
yes absolutely true, but I don't know how much fingers , but sure more that 2 .
Driver actually don't support any kind of multitouch, you can found sources released by SE and it just support 1 finger, so this is really the first thing to Do.
Not bootloader but Recovery
Hey this thread really is exciting knowing that mini/pro CAN actually support MT, although i think i read somewhere that mini can only support 2 fingers, either way is better than just 1 XD, mostly for emulators, aaaany way, member zdzihu posted a recovery method for flashing custom roms on mini/pro
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=878426
hope the devs can make MT work
interesting
kurotany said:
Hey this thread really is exciting knowing that mini/pro CAN actually support MT, although i think i read somewhere that mini can only support 2 fingers, either way is better than just 1 XD, mostly for emulators, aaaany way, member zdzihu posted a recovery method for flashing custom roms on mini/pro
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=878426
hope the devs can make MT work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont forget though that this recovery is not a recovery as we understand them on sensibly made devices (cheers sony......) there is still no custom kernel ability as i gather and STILL no custom roms other than the unstable build for x10i... iv been following these threads very closely and am more than willing to help you guys to figure out a way to achieve MT. if any code source is needed to be pulled and put to you let me know. also would looking at files from a mini/pro on 1.6 then comparing with files from 2.1 updated phones as maybe this could show areas of interest more clearly??? i am new to the idea of development and such but just an idea. fresh minds=fresh ideas right?? praying for a functional sony ericsson phone soon lmao
Hey there again
There are now custom roms and a tutorial made by svprm to make them, i tried it and it works, is an easy way to root the latest firmware update and it works with xrecovery, also with bin4ry flashtool you can flash different files from firmwares that includes the kernel.sin and system.sin of sony's updates, so my idea is that maybe kernel.sin could be decrypted and modified so that the device works with multitouch the same way system.sin is decrypted to make custom roms, so just a thought for devs that know how to work at kernel level maybe it works this way
I have no idea what iam doing, but i found "Protoype drivers" for CY8CTMA300
@ http://www.cypress.com
Hope it can help someone
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17262008/cy8ctma300.tar.bz2
Simple questions: once Arc is out, how hard is it to copy Gingerbread and make it available on X10? Im not a developer, so I have no idea.
Assuming it can be done, isnt it the case for us to just prepare for its release?
Has bootloader cracking anything to do with this?
Should we be able to copy its softwares back to X10? I mean, the only feature i feel SE has overcome Google is the camera software, and i bet Arc will sport a nice camera, so we could use that.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
If this was possible our X10 would be still as good then
I hope Devs will mix something
Just wondering if SE lied to us that we cannot have real multitouch just so that we would buy their next generation phones or were they right? or does bootloader have nothing to do with this?
nope. i think there will not be mt. only dt. hardware dun support i think.
i think mt is possible...
why? who would build a high end device with no multitouch, that is so stupid dont you think?
multitouch on iphone release on 20 January 2009
And
The Xperia X10 was first revealed on November 3, 2009..
do you think big company like s.e would ****ed up and will not include MT?
do you remember this? http://xperia-x1.com/sony-style-website-claims-xperia-x10-has-multi-touch-display/
back then we have 1.6 offcourse it doesnt support MT niether DT.
they announced DT is possible on 2.1, right..... you know why only DT?
because arc is coming i think they dont want the arc to look like copycats of x10 with a little bit of hw upgrades...
i am not here to mislead you x10 fellow men.. if only we can use our LOGIC side..
its all about MARKETING STRATEGIES....
i am not calling s.e a liar, business is business right...
if only we have the right kernel i think it should work..
think before you bash me.
-- X10B -- said:
i think mt is possible...
why? who would build a high end device with no multitouch, that is so stupid dont you think?
multitouch on iphone release on 20 January 2009
And
The Xperia X10 was first revealed on November 3, 2009..
do you think big company like s.e would ****ed up and will not include MT?
do you remember this? http://xperia-x1.com/sony-style-website-claims-xperia-x10-has-multi-touch-display/
back then we have 1.6 offcourse it doesnt support MT niether DT.
they announced DT is possible on 2.1, right..... you know why only DT?
because arc is coming i think they dont want the arc to look like copycats of x10 with a little bit of hw upgrades...
i am not here to mislead you x10 fellow men.. if only we can use our LOGIC side..
its all about MARKETING STRATEGIES....
i am not calling s.e a liar, business is business right...
if only we have the right kernel i think it should work..
think before you bash me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope. mostly no mt only dt. nth to do with kernel. its the hardware. in the devepment forum...even with custom kernel..the hardware still wont support it. correct me if im wrong...which i dun think so =) read from somewhere. =p
I'm looking for anyone who can actually say what's going on with x10. Does it really support MT or DT is what we'll get?
I'm happy with DT now but MT would be awesome.
NO MT, onlt dt
a2ha said:
Just wondering if SE lied to us that we cannot have real multitouch just so that we would buy their next generation phones or were they right? or does bootloader have nothing to do with this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The X10 is using the same touch screen as the Nexus 1 and the HTC desire.
Both of them are having the cross axis issue and both of them can detect only 2 fingers.
So this time, it's not software related, it's hardware related
What if we just replace the screen with one that is capable of multitouch?
Sent from my CL65 AMG using Tapatalk
Hanzo.Hasashi said:
What if we just replace the screen with one that is capable of multitouch?
Sent from my CL65 AMG using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
umm... yeah... no..... thats impossible...
elady58 said:
The X10 is using the same touch screen as the Nexus 1 and the HTC desire.
Both of them are having the cross axis issue and both of them can detect only 2 fingers.
So this time, it's not software related, it's hardware related
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
can you please post the link where did you get this ?
The screen dosen't have nothing in related to dt or MT, the only thing is a related ADC converter that translate capacitance of the screen in x,y position this is described to understand, and this piece of hardware it isn't capable of do 2 simultaneous readings. In dt the reading is only one but with very highly frequency so u don't remark the time between them, and acts like a MT, but it isn't in reality. The chip datasheet was on the forum in one thread posted.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
I don't mind DT..but I hope they can make it more responsive..I love Iphone because of the MT is so smooth and responsive..
custom roms always helps =)
It seems like we've had this discussion before.
I remember reading all those arguments that it can or cannot support this.
I will be shocked if it actually does support mt.
However, dual touch is enough for me
i dont mind dual touch, i just wish it was more responsive
The only thing that sucks about not having MT is that playing Tap Tap Revenge is kind of hard when three come at once.. but oh well.. I can live with out TTR
nan_a said:
The screen dosen't have nothing in related to dt or MT, the only thing is a related ADC converter that translate capacitance of the screen in x,y position this is described to understand, and this piece of hardware it isn't capable of do 2 simultaneous readings. In dt the reading is only one but with very highly frequency so u don't remark the time between them, and acts like a MT, but it isn't in reality. The chip datasheet was on the forum in one thread posted.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you're correct it is the digitizer on the x10 that is used...
It cannot read more than two points simultaneously, so true mt will never be possible
fiscidtox said:
you're correct it is the digitizer on the x10 that is used...
It cannot read more than two points simultaneously, so true mt will never be possible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But only 2-touch-points are defined in the driver. Maybe it's possible to define more with some hacks?
foreveralone said:
But only 2-touch-points are defined in the driver. Maybe it's possible to define more with some hacks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no... it is the digitizer itself, not the drivers.
Synaptics Cleartouch 2000 digitizer
Same as on the n1, and the htc desire...
They ALL have the same issue
For a very long while, I was very certain we could never have this. Recently someone posted and explained that it could in fact be possible to have dualtouch as that TF-whatever digitizer might actually support dualtouch and not singletouch as we first were lead to believe.
What is the actual truth? Were we mislead yet again or is it actually not possible at all to have dualtoch? I mean, the guy did post some very convincing stuff, with other handsets having the exact same chip and supported real dualtouch. He said the software would need modding and that sort of stuff
What's your thought on this? Is it b.s. or the actual truth?
It is very true to, I myself have dualtouch as do many other x10 mini/pro users, have a look in the mini or pro development section and you will find the multitouch driver there
Sent from my X10 Mini Pro using xda premium
Only for mini pro
Hi all. Long time reader first time poster. Question to you folks out there. I've read up on the Xperia Mini (+Pro). I'm looking for a small form-factor Android phone with a snappy(dragon) speed processor, and want your advice.
1) Would you buy the phone today? If not, why? I know there's bigger and faster, but I don't see on the market anything faster that's as small. I know Sony doesn't talk, but do we think there's a refreshed model coming out soon in 2012 that I should wait for?
2) I'm replacing my Samsung Captivate- can I do these things that I liked to do: a) easy to root/sideload etc? I don't flash ROMs, but do some Rooty stuff.
3) I like swype. Does swype run on the Experia Pro?
4) Suggestions on Mini vs. Mini Pro? I like swype, but if this thing is as small as it looks, should I be looking to get the Pro/keyboard version?
5) GPS never worked on my Craptivate. Does it work well on this phone?
I've got more questions, but I'll start with that!
subs said:
Hi all. Long time reader first time poster. Question to you folks out there. I've read up on the Xperia Mini (+Pro). I'm looking for a small form-factor Android phone with a snappy(dragon) speed processor, and want your advice.
1) Would you buy the phone today? If not, why? I know there's bigger and faster, but I don't see on the market anything faster that's as small. I know Sony doesn't talk, but do we think there's a refreshed model coming out soon in 2012 that I should wait for?
2) I'm replacing my Samsung Captivate- can I do these things that I liked to do: a) easy to root/sideload etc? I don't flash ROMs, but do some Rooty stuff.
3) I like swype. Does swype run on the Experia Pro?
4) Suggestions on Mini vs. Mini Pro? I like swype, but if this thing is as small as it looks, should I be looking to get the Pro/keyboard version?
5) GPS never worked on my Craptivate. Does it work well on this phone?
I've got more questions, but I'll start with that!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the mini and love it. I have had no issues with it at all. in reply to your questions:
1 - would buy again. the Processor is fast enough. I've never had lag. Also it will get the ice cream sandwich update so the software will stay current on the mini for a while.
2 - I rooted the phone using superoneclickroot which took 1 click. But the latest software update for the phone may mean that root might not be available ~yet~ (see http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1455216 ). If you're buying current stock then more than likely the software update to 62 hasn't been applied yet, so rooting is easy.
3 - I use swiftkey as a keyboard replacement, you can use any android app so swype should work too.
4 - How much do you really use the keyboard? I figured that one of the main reasons in getting the phone was for it to be small & lightweight, so the mini was the smallest & lightest, I used to have a Droid with a keyboard, but now don't miss the keyboard at all.
5 - GPS works fine. I think GPS issues were a Samsung thing?
I'm a mini pro user and must say I'm pretty happy with my phone. But to answer some of your questions I wouldn't buy this phone if I were buying it now, and it's only because I'd really like a bigger screen and perhaps a longer battery as well but these are in no way reasons not to go for this phone. In all my time using it I really had no issues whatsoever and can't find any remarks why not to choose this phone besides personal preference.
The rooting is quite easy excluding the latest firmware which just takes some alternative methods to do, but is not in any way extra hard.
Swype can be used but if you take the mini pro you will most probably get used to the hardware keyboard and will at most times avoid using the on screen one as the hardware keyboard is way more comfortable and easier to use.
Also the GPS works really well, and the phone itself also includes a special module that allows the use of the new tracking technology implemented by the Russians (can't remember the name). So you will have acces to about ten or more satelites (compared to other GPS modules of other phones) which give you faster lock on and more precise measurements.
All in all this phone will not disappoint you, or at least it has not disappointed me.
Sent from my SK17i using XDA App
Brov i would advice yu to get one... am planning of get one soonest too!!!
tha only hinderance about tha phone is dat its small but still handy!
1) Yes, I would. I really like my little phone... I have no idea if any successor is planned - but if so, I don't think it'll be as cheap as the mini/mini pro at the moment.
I also really like the stock launcher, I like the hardware keyboard, the form factor, the speed of the CPU. The camera sucks, the batterylife is mediocre and the display resolution could be higher but it's still a very good phone.
2) I'm quite sure yes. I broke my root with the newest update (but didn't really need it at the moment) but I'm sure the community will come up with a new root very soon.
3) I think so
4) AFAIK the mini does have fewer problems with overall reception (GPS, GPRS, UMTS, WiFi). But - I want the keyboard!! The screen really is quite small - I don't want half of it used by the onscreen keyboard. On top of it - I'm really a lot faster with the hardware one - feels good, works well. TBH, the mini never was a valid option for me.
5) Yes, it does work but compared to other phones the reception is quite poor in my opinion. I don't need it on a day-to-day basis so it's not a deal breaker to me.
Tha main truth is tha SUCCESSOR of dis phone cant be sold dat amount!!! i just love XMP.... I must get it!
If you are interested (and in the UK) I'm selling one. It has only 2 days use, and last night I unlocked the bootloader, put CWM recovery on it, and put NeoDroid's V4 ROM and kernel on it.
Advert here...http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1477219&highlight=xperia+mini+pro
Indeed a nice little phone. Much much snappier since I put the custom ROM on it. Got it overclocked to a safe 1.2GHz and removed all the bloatware. Running it as my daily use phone for a few days to make sure there are no bugs.
I've had mine for a few months and would still get one.
The screen is small/low resolution, but it fits in my pocket and there's very little out with a keyboard here.
SE made it easy to unlock, so I have a custom kernel and have no problems with it set to 1.6GHz.
I didn't like the launcher at all with its corners thing, but that's easy to replace
Sorry- I'm in the US, would need a version that could run on AT&T's network bands
melenko said:
I've had mine for a few months and would still get one.
The screen is small/low resolution, but it fits in my pocket and there's very little out with a keyboard here.
SE made it easy to unlock, so I have a custom kernel and have no problems with it set to 1.6GHz.
I didn't like the launcher at all with its corners thing, but that's easy to replace
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How can one replace tha launcher brov? but tha phone has 1GHz, How com 1.6GHz?
whalesplaho said:
How can one replace tha launcher brov? but tha phone has 1GHz, How com 1.6GHz?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Launchers like ADW, there's a few on the market
Custom kernels give a few more options, (Rage/KarmaRush) so something like setCPU or Tasker can set it to a higher CPU speed
melenko said:
Launchers like ADW, there's a few on the market
Custom kernels give a few more options, (Rage/KarmaRush) so something like setCPU or Tasker can set it to a higher CPU speed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks so much brov..... i appreciate~!
whalesplaho said:
thanks so much brov..... i appreciate~!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's ADW+, Beautiful widgets, Minimalistic text, Tasker. If you're going to have a nice little phone like this, it's worth making it your own
melenko said:
That's ADW+, Beautiful widgets, Minimalistic text, Tasker. If you're going to have a nice little phone like this, it's worth making it your own
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dis is nice brov.... is dis screenshot taken from XMP?
Hello
1. I had an Xperia X10 mini pro, but bought an Xperia mini pro a few month ago. I am very happy with this phone and would buy the same again, if this one broke.
If you need a phone now, buy it now, It is a nice phone, the only problem I see is the that it can run out of RAM, but then get a kernel that supports SWAP, so you can get some paged memory.
2. I think that it is easy to root, even though it was easier on the Xperia X10 mini pro. The biggest problem is that you it is hard to switch back to the stock ROM. But Once you have tried CM7, will you never return (and CM9 is on the way).
3. I do not know about the Xperia pro, but I have not seen it on the Xperia mini pro, but there are very similar keyboards.
4. Personally I would never buy the Xperia mini. The pro version is not that much bigger and it actually has a very nice keyboard.
5. The GPS of the Xperia mini pro is working very nice here in Denmark. I actually use it as my primary GPS (even though I have a TomTom). I have seen some problems if I am too far out in the country and surrounded by big trees. But in exception of that am I very happy with the GPS of the Xperia mini pro combined with Google Maps.
---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------
whalesplaho said:
How can one replace tha launcher brov? but tha phone has 1GHz, How com 1.6GHz?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should try to install "GO Launcher EX" from the market.
hnl_dk thanks for dat info.... i think i ll buy it early nextmonth!
but yu talk bout Go Launcher EX, is it better dan tha ADW+??? but i thought Go Luanhcer EX is use for themes cos i use to see alongside themes.
Ok- I have to ask- what is with your grammar and spelling? I wouldn't mind if you said that you were not a native english speaker- where are you from? sorry.
I will start with the problems I have with Mini Pro
* Low resolution - You wont be able to play some games
* Small Screen -Nut can't take it as a big negative because its a MINI pro
As for your queries there is nothing in the current market which has the same or better hardware and is small .In the world of gadgets/technology it is normal for some product to be squished by a better one and it is inevitable so there is no use waiting for a newer one .
You can easily ROOT your phone ,there is a simple tool available - connect phone,click root and your done .
I don't think you will need swype because of the physical keyboard .But yes it will run.
Mini has no keyboard thats all .
GPS works without any issues .
whalesplaho said:
hnl_dk thanks for dat info.... i think i ll buy it early nextmonth!
but yu talk bout Go Launcher EX, is it better dan tha ADW+??? but i thought Go Luanhcer EX is use for themes cos i use to see alongside themes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They can both do themes, and I think there's free versions to try out. The difference is just preference, things like a few options or speed
I have no idea about XMP, I just used screenshot from the power button
I just recently got my SE Xperia Mini Pro, and I'm loving it. For the price I payed for it, I am surprise they are making a profit. My budget was around £250, I checked many phones and many didn't have the specs I was looking for. I needed a fast and good quality camera phone and the Mini Pro lives up to its standard.
Pros
Very fast phone, only crashes when you put it to the extreme
Camera is amazing, really surprised with the picture quality
Can run most apps and games without any problem
Hardware keyboard is really sturdy
SE has added Swype in the 2.3.4 update for the Mini Pro
Cons
Screen a bit small for typing
The outside feels like cheap plastic
This is a great phone for the price. If your budget is low, definitely get this one, If your budget is higher, a bigger screen might do better