Related
Well I was just reading a thread about someone buying a Vibrant from someone who "found" it and this person was looking for a way to bypass WaveSecure.
We all know that with a little know how that it is possible with Recovery Mode.
The question I have is there a way to prevent even a Recovery Mode reflash? To absolutely stop someone from touching the ROM at all?
I know the Security Apps out right now can track you from GPS, wipe the phone remotely, etc... But can it stop someone from reflashing a ROM?
If there is a app out there like that please let me know, but if not, what would it take to create such a app.
What are YOUR thoughts??
What if this happens and then you brick for some reason need to reflash and it's locked. I would just bank on the fact that most people think that it's a "Droid" phone and don't know ****.
I was hoping for a question like that.
Either there is a security measure which at some point of using Recovery that it asks for a password or pin. Something that will allow you to access it securely and nobody else.
Yes, it is a droid, very true, but how many droids are out there now, are going to be out there, and with the new laws that allow you to unlock your device and pretty much do anything with it, more and more people are going to start playing around. Not only that, there is always somebody who knows someone, you know.
Personally myself, I would feel secure with having an implementation like this, everything else is pointless.
It's sort of like having a anti virus on your computer but not scanning for rootkits, only viruses.
The idea of that app sounds nice and all that but I seriously doubt that the average Android user would know about flashing ROMs and all that. But if it does get into the hands of somebody that does know how to do it then it can be a problem.
jzero88 said:
Yes, it is a droid, very true, but how many droids...
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Click to collapse
First of all these are android devices / android phones. I was mocking the people who call these phones "droid" phones.
Now on topic: All it takes to break this security is for one person to say, "I forgot my password on for the ==sUPERlOCKER== what do I do to get access?" Then all your worry is for nothing again.
What has been done can always be undone.
Sure, unlike me, I never forget my passwords. Especially for something this serious.
Second, of course something can be undo, but to what extent, after hearing your lack of concern makes me think you don't even have a lock on your phone
Again, would you rather have a password like "1234" that is easily guessed, or would you rather have something like "00LowJK54889$3%#". It's really a matter of personal security.
You sound like one of those people who would have Security Cameras, but never has the DVR on to record anything.
I'm saying your idea is bad. I have illustrated why. You have no counterpoint other than that I am 'relaxed' about my phone security.
How about this, keep your phone in your pocket or hand? 100% security.
This should be in general and not development
Sent from my Vibrant using xda app
This has been discussed a few times, you could compile your own recovery image and program in a password while at it, or you can accept that 90% of theives(or people who would find your phone) cannot get to recovery. If I found a phone then yeah I would go straight to recovery but I'm not your average user.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
I'm saying your idea is bad. I have illustrated why. You have no counterpoint other than that I am 'relaxed' about my phone security.
How about this, keep your phone in your pocket or hand? 100% security.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, my idea is not bad, give it time, you will see.
Second, I do not have a counterpoint because my main point is stated in the first post. Read again.
Third, I don't care if you are relaxed about your security or not. This post obviously is not for you, another negative person who stunts development if they do not see a logical use for themselves.
I wish you the best and hope that you do not need to ever use such a tool or measure. Take it easy.
This has been discussed a few times, you could compile your own recovery image and program in a password while at it, or you can accept that 90% of theives(or people who would find your phone) cannot get to recovery. If I found a phone then yeah I would go straight to recovery but I'm not your average user.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the Vibrant forums? Haven't seen anything yet.
Also, I am not betting on a thief or someone who found the phone to be able to get to recovery, I'm worried about who these people might know. It's surprising to see how many people out here think that they are the only person in a 20 mile radius who knows how to do such mods... Maybe it's just the people I know but I know quite a few people who can easily google and find a way, easily.
I can bet that 90% of people here do not know anything except following directions, no pun intended to those who do. I definitely do not know half of what I should know, but again, is it really that hard?
Your own logic defeats what you are saying here. Don't you understand OP?
If there is a security measure, there will be a work around it? So why have more than ONE thing for the uneducated masses and stop there?
If the person who steals your phone knows someone who could get around WaveSecure, or any other security application. Then that same person can get around ANY AND ALL other types and forms of theft deterrent. If not, they will know someone, ask on forums, etc. UNTIL they gain access.
zaduma
Then why have any security on anything at all?
You my friend make no sense, good day!
jzero88 said:
Then why have any security on anything at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I will lay it out as simply as I can man. I do not want to argue, but you are missing why this is impossible to accomplish.
The existing security layers can be compromised by lets say... 10% of the population, seeing as most people who are thieves do not talk about it, most people dislike thieves.
So effectively 90% of people will be stopped dead in their tracks by having WaveSecure, etc.
The 10% who are not stopped however, can not be stopped by any means. None. They are the people who read these forums, have technical ability, etc.
Therefore having one layer of security means 90% of people are stopped from using your device. But it has ridiculously diminishing returns. With two layers, say stopping access to recovery, 10% are now stopped. Just boot into download mode and flash with odin. Stop download mode? First of all how? Second of all, there has to be a workaround for people who forget their passwords and stuff. And guess what, those 10% will know about that as well.
So please, address these issues and resolve them somehow, and your idea has merit. Without doing so you are wasting your time.
Also, much to your liking I will assume, I will no longer be posting in this thread due to your constant elevation of flaming.
Any security pro will tell you, if you have physical access to a computer, you can make it usable for you. The only real security you can hope for its to prevent access to your data by the thief. That's what full disk encryption and such is about. For our phones, we could achieve this much with a custom kernel perhaps, but how would you enter the password? No keyboard at that level.
The cellular providers can prevent the stolen phone from getting on their networks, and some do, but that's about as far as it goes.
Its like having a lock on your front door.. Its only going to keep out the honest people... Thats what they are made for, honest people, because dishonest people will just kick the door in.. And the good thieves can pick a dead bolt...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I'm starting to think this request/question is for the wrong crowd, truly it is...
If you build it they will hack it... Hands down... Look at the droid x, the unhackable phone, it took 5 weeks..
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I agree, never did I not. This thread wasn't to debate whether a security measure could be hacked or not, the thread was created to see what we could do to implement such a measure.
I am totally aware of that. I know that if there is a will there is a way.
PERSONALLY, that is something I wouldn't mind having. Though some of you disagree and have a right to your own opinion, that is beyond the point. I am trying to see if a) is it possible. and b) what it would take to do so, and possibly c) if anyone was interested in trying or helping out.
So feel free to express your opinion. Mine is that you can never have enough protection cuz I would never bring a knife to a gun fight. But that's just me...
BTW, those who hacked the unhackable phone I would consider being part of the .01%.
jzero88 said:
I'm starting to think this request/question is for the wrong crowd, truly it is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean people that know how things work, I suppose. It's the same problem as drm. When you understand why that's not possible, you will understand this. Read up on jtag as well, you can't protect against that. 90% is about as good as it gets.
Just wondering. If and when we get custom rom's (fingers crossed for cyanogenmod) how are we going to deal with playing the HD content we've come to love on the archos'? (Hell, its pretty much the only thing it can do without struggling it seems). As the video player is archos code.. hopefully can pull it out of rom without problem when have full root. But if not its a bit of a drag as I haven't found any other player on android which plays as much and as well as the archos one.
Does the source code which was released earlier Contain the code to get hdmi-out/video player stuff? I'm guessing not
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
They can just leave it in the ROM right? I mean I don't think they will be writing them from scratch. Just modifying the existing roms.
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
thefunkygibbon said:
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
thefunkygibbon said:
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
the performance of the system on certain hardware is nothing to do with googles comment. they said that in relation to the user experience/app compatibility/screen scaling side of things. covering their own ass with the plethora of tablets coming out and wanting to distance itself from the responsibility that joe public will assume they should have (when, rightly so, its not)
as for the phone network/gps etc they are the arbitary "minimum specs" that google set out to govern what devices would be allowed to use the google marketplace and other built in google apps. again it is just a way of trying to gain some form of quality control with the amount of people creating android based systems on crap hardware.
google dont "support" them anyway. its open source.
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
digibucc said:
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ummmm ok
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
digibucc said:
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
REAVER117 said:
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Per /proc/cpuinfo it should actually be a 3630-1000, same as the Droid X (amongst others).
JasonOT said:
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so i just take your word for it instead?
how often do programmers re-write something that has already been done, from scratch? i'm not saying it doesn't happen - i'm saying far more often code gets recycled. if something is already made, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
and thank you for your primary, secondary and tertiary sources - as well as your enlightening explanation of what is true.
i can accept when I am wrong, but not just because some random person on the internet tells me I am, with nothing to prove his point any more than my own.
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
chulri said:
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
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Click to collapse
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
digibucc said:
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you being obtuse for a reason?
A device made to run android by Archos, and comes booting ONLY Android OS by default... is being said as not being made to run android....
Smells like trolling to me.
Maybe people just like to troll for no reason, blazingwolf.
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
digibucc said:
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. "it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it."
It's running the same CPU/GPU SOC as the Droid X with half the RAM. It has a capacitive display. The only real difference is the resolution of the display and lack of cellular radio. That's a far cry from what you wrote.
If it were, say, Android running on an old PowerPC CPU, you'd be correct.
2. "android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network."
Uhh, no. There's no reason Android needs a mobile network.
3. "it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen."
While true, it's rather irrelevant. And the statement that followed it...
4. " those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps"
...is completely wrong.
For starters, the majority of people aren't having problems with non-Archos apps. Secondly, the majority of people having problems, are having problems due to Archos' distribution of Froyo. Those that stayed with 2.1 aren't having nearly as many problems.
Yes, a small handful of apps don't work well due to the increased resolution. A small handful of apps will only cover a portion of the display. Note that they are a small handful. The vast vast majority of Android apps work perfectly well on the Archos tabs.
5. "Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too."
"Not made for them" is, again, a far cry from the truth. Not designed with tablets in mind, or even not optimized, is more like it. Like thefunkygibbon already told you, Google making those comments was strictly to cover their own asses when people get upset that they can't play games like Guitar Hero -- that represent maybe 5% of all apps -- because they aren't well coded and cannot scale to greater resolutions.
You've made a mountain out of a moehill, and the 7 links you just posted support this notion. So yes, obtuse and/or trolling are both justified descriptions of your Chicken Little act.
It's true its not made for tablets. It will work on them, but it was made with phones in mind. In other words, its a matter of the thought behind the software. What it is catered to. Its mostly the little things. Icon spacing on the default home page. Lots of little things. If they didn't make that statement they would get slammed about all of those little things. Its not really a hardware issue, more of a functionality and UI issue.
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
As far as I can tell, without any objective numbers comparing root performance, a lot of this rooting fad raves could just be subjective reported elation about being able to be different.
Granted, originally, the Gtab OS had some flaws. That's old news, get over it. How do the current roots compare with OTA version 3588? I'm somewhat shocked not one of the pack of geeks that have rooted their G tab hasn't backed up their raves with real numbers...
Granted, being rooted to the latest vegan might get access to the full Android market, and perhaps even future updates in Android... However, if I'm finding most of what I want at Amazon Android, is rooting worth the trouble until the roots and android versions stabilize? Show us the NUMBERS...!
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Also, do any of these roots do OTA auto updates or do root updates require a download & re-root? Just asking...
Jesus christ if you can't do a simple search for benchmark tests then I highly suggest getting the ipad2. I hear that the ipad 2 reads your mind so out don't have to do any search. We've only had a kazillion threads on this.
Edit
This is not to mention all the YouTube vids on this people have posted.
Edit again.
Actually, here are a few.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1047098&highlight=benchmark+2011
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12984546&postcount=9
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12986416&postcount=10
Edit again.
I'm serious, I highly suggest the ipad 2 to everyone I talk to. Speaking as someone who repairs computers as a side job, I'm fully aware that most people want to be spoon fed everything, which is why the ipad 2 is the ideal device for most people. If people want to complain about nothing, let apple deal with them.
Thanks for the links.
However, as best as I can tell, they seem to verify that the OTA updated Gtablet is about the same speed as Vegan in the benchmarks when the CPU speeds are similar.
However, do the benchmarks used translate into much of relevance to speed of actually using the tablet to open programs, boot the tablet, download & open web pages. Stuff that people actually do with the tablet... Unless that's what the benchmarks are testing... But that info isn't provided in the links. Again -- weak...
The numbers and detail provided in these links deserve barely more than a C grade, if that... And what they provide seems to be at equal speeds, the current OTA updated gtab OS works fine... As long as you don't need the full Adroid market...
You Tube links? As best as I can tell, not one of them is an objective comparison with the OTA 3588 update gtab. They are just videos of vegan working... As far as real world numbers and comparisons -- Grade D-...
Where are the Grade A numbers? It's not that I don't believe the ROMs are not an improvement, it's just where are the numbers to support these raves?
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
You're not telling us what you want. You said you wanted numbers so I gave you a bunch. Then you say you don't want those numbers. So, I ask again. What do you want?
I'll be brutally honest on this one. Vegan isn't that fast. From all my tests, Calkulin+Clemsyn combo is by far the fastest custom rom+kernel for the gtab.
After trying out everything, I'm back to Calkulin+Clemsyn combo.
Would you like me to make a video of myself openning various programs and post it for you? What do you want?
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
You also have a misconception of what rooting is/does.
To become root in Linux/Android is to gain administrative privileges. In windows root would be called Administrator. Gaining root privileges gives you the ability to change system files and settings, NOTHING MORE. By itself it does nothing.
Now boys...
The fact is that if you need numbers, reports,testimonials or anything else to justify mucking around with the gtab thenyou probably should just get an iPad. Nothing to prove then -everyone "knows" its the best-no numbers needed! The gtab is for people that don't mind the hardware and software quirks as long as they have the freedom to mess around. Its not about the numbers -its about the experience.
[Q] Why should we ..?!
Droofus said:
I've been there done that with this subjective stuff long enough not to be swayed without real numbers...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am not sure anyone here is trying to sway you in one direction or the others.
Here is how things go in community forums like this one:
- People search for what they got in mind first.
- If they didn't find its either undoable or not that interesting for the community that no one bothered doing it.
- In both case those people are expected to either drop whatever they are wishing for or pursuit it on there own and then share their findings with the community.
In other words, why the heck am I supposed to go beyond whatever benchmarks readily available on the market to show YOU how good/bad are custom firmwares compared to stock ones when :
- custom firmwares are volatile and each couple of days there is a new rom or rom add on or a kernel released (am I supposed to maintain the stats for every single update released ? else how meaningful would be my outdated stats to you? when it represents a ROM that is no longer a candidate)
- the whole flash back and forth and in between roms is a 10~20 minutes process of YOUR time which would suffice to answer all your questions.
If you still need some usability tests (you can use your own stop watch to time through the videos) you might want to check here.
Best of luck,
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
I'm thinking you should drop that 'r' from your handle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this was the best answer.
The information you are demanding is indicating your ignorance. As was already stated rooting does nothing for performance. If you want numbers you can install each rom and test with each kernel setting whatever your heart desires. Its not likely anyone else even cares as most people only care about stability and a lack of lag
Droofus said:
So, if rooting the g tablet is the way to go, it surely must stand up to a few simple speed checks. Has anyone posted various root's numbers or have some to post?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting itself does nothing other than giving you root - the speed of your device before and after rooting is identical.
Now, if you want to talk about the speeds with or without an overclocked kernel, or with a custom Froyo vs custom Ginger vs stock rom, as others have said there are plenty of posts out there.
Mine lasted on the stock rom for exactly one boot after opening the box - so I could copy on the bits to begin the rooting/custom rom flashing goodness.
cu_ninja said:
What exactly are you looking for? There are no hard numbers when it comes to real world use, just your user experience versus mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
If I go to a notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards, the various card performances in various games are reviewed. The reviews are very professionally and objectively done with detail. Clicking on any specific card opens a detailed review of that card. This allows users to make decisions based upon what sorts of (graphic game) uses they might actually have.
It seems a similar but much smaller objective set of benchmarks could be performed on the various g tablet roots using a set of common uses in part noted above. It doesn't need to be as elaborate or detailed as the video card review site noted above. Just objectively testing a few simple end user tasks would seem to be adequate to get beyond the subjective raves that one commonly sees about this or that OS change...
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
So is this a religious thread, I see Jesus was mentioned.
Actually sometimes you modders act like it.
I'll get the other times later. Here is the startup time.
Droofus said:
FYI, part of this is related to my background as a doctor (plus a computer background dating back beyond the Apple II to programming FORTRAN and COMPASS on mainframes in the 1960s). As doctors we are constantly bombarded with all sorts of anecdotal raves about this or that treatment all the time, only to find that they aren't supported by actual objective research -- some cause harm, not healing. Fortunately for those promoting software changes related to raves and fads don't have the potential to cause anyone significant harm... Excuse me if I'd like to see similar objective professional 'standards of care' when it comes to reviewing and analyzing software/hardware fads. I'm sure there are plenty of others in the audience who'd feel the same...
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Well, while I can see your point, I also have to point out the other side of the argument. I am an engineer. Last year, we got a college graduate who, from the outlook, had all the numbers and credentials. He graduated with almost a perfect gpa. Sounds nice, right? He had all the numbers. The problem was as soon as he began working with us we figured out very quickly that we had a book smart-absolutely no common sense person with us. I swear, he pulled me aside one time and asked me why they were "watering the concrete slabs" in the lab. It got worse from there. I had to explain to him very basic engineering concepts and applications like stirrups, slippage, etc.
This guy actually went through college getting the grades and everything without actually understanding any of it. He graduated with a structural engineering degree without knowing the very simple practical processes of curing concrete or reinforcing footings.
The point is numbers can be deceiving if you ignore annecdotal (aka common sense) evidence. You need both objective numbers and common sense to work in reality. Sure, I've heard plenty of annecdotal nonsense like creationist BS, religious miracles, and homeopathic crap. I'll give you that. But you seem to be on the other extreme side, which is to ignore all personal evidence and place all your bets on pure numbers.
I'm telling you now. We got both the numbers and personal evidence. I'll try to get them for you.
Doofus
I like the list of missing benchmarks you listed. Why don't you measure them and report back?
Droofus said:
What I'm looking for is defined, at least in part, in the first post. Copy and pasted here for your convenience.
Stuff like, time to boot? Time to load common apps? Time to open the same web page? Frames on games? Time to download? Max browser pages open? Other relevant numbers welcome...
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All those numbers are identical before and after rooting your device since nothing changes before and after root, other than you now have root access.
That was easy.
1
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Theres some more random numbers
While watching everyone bash eachother here has its entertainment i have some advice.
Droofus
1 i would recomend not comming into a community forum and bashing people who put a lot of effort into making the product you own better. These people don't get paid for the hours of work they put in.
2 if you don't like how thing are done around here take the time to be a good example and do it better. You clearly have an idea in your head on how to make a professional stastical representation of the roms so do it.
3 what some people are trying to tell you is that it is not all about the numbers. Some people want gingerbread features. Right now all of the gingerbread roms suck for video performance due to driver issues so i don't use them. I like the gingerbread features but i watch videos a lot so i use a froyo rom. Others really care about performance so they give up some stability and overlock.
4 people around here get upset when the same question gets asked over and over again. If you have done some reasearch reference other articles to show that.
5 this is a dual core tablet, what are you doing that you care that much about preformance.
This thing is faster than my netbook.
6 dropping your title on us just makes you sound pretentious. There are a lot of very intellgent successful people here who are not impressed by doctors or your past experience. If you have useful skills to the community don't brag just use them and people will be grateful.
7 people were a little rude about it but they are right. I tell people that if they want something that is easy go buy an ipad or a xoom. If you want something for under 300 then buy a g tab and understand that with some effort it can be great.
Everyone
1 relax... starting flame wars with someone who doesn't know their way around isn't going to help anyone.
I forgot to mention that traditionally us geeks are known for our lack of formal documentation.
P.s. while many of us proudly wear the badge of geek calling us a pack of geeks is a little adversarial.
English isn't my first language, otherwise I'd write one myself.
I'm looking for a good english writer to write a petition to B&N to provide the development community with an ability to access the bootloader and root the device.
I think main points should be that they've made a lot of money by allowing people to mod original NC, and that this will greatly increase the interest in purchasing the NT. Also, worth mentioning some examples of devices like Captivate that really benefited from custom community development (improved GPS, fixed many bugs, early GB port, etc).
Basically persuade B&N to support and appreciate development community and give us means to develop for them.
Needless to mention, only use words like "develop", "improve", etc... not "hack" and "crack" lol.
Here's the site I found where we can collect signatures:
http://www.makeuseof.com/dir/petitionspotcom/
POST IT HERE first, then we'll go and make it official.
PS: before anybody goes all "they ain't gonna listen yo" - let me remind you of Samsung's support to SuperCurio about improving Galaxy S's sound processing. After community asked Samsung, they actually provided full support and helped SuperCurio improve the device.
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
Entropy512 said:
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
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Indeed, but I think my point remains - this is another avenue of "attack" to get B&N to support us.
Our hackers are approaching this from technical side, I want to try and help and organize a line of communication with B&N and see if we can get them to help us.
Get your petition up and I'll sign! I was going to get a NT but now I'm not so sure. If it can't run from a dual booting SD card, it's just not worth it. Might as well pony up and get a "real" tablet.
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
goldenu said:
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
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iamnarada said:
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
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what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
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agreed. i'm a little confused. I get the SD boot issue being a problem, but I haven't come across any apps that I use that couldn't be sideloaded.
maybe i'm just old and don't use some of the stuff you guys use?
I really enjoy the NT but don't know how long I will keep it if I constantly have to use workarounds to get any functionality out of it.
No custom kernels / ROMs
No Android Market
No settings page
No root (so far at least)
Nook button opens Nook launcher only
i dunno, I guess I'm just more patient than most. I really didn't expect to buy it and have it as functional as it is already, leave alone rooted or installing custom roms. I expected that in a few months....
I'm just glad I could install a real browser, and have access to install the apks i wanted.
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
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Well, all of the Google apps install fine, but when I try to sign in to my account or associate it my account with the tablet, it tells me my user name or password is wrong. So effectively, I can't use any of the Google apps. I can log in to my google account in the browser, and access the web versions of the apps, but....what I was looking for really was to be able to put the ROM I wanted on it.
Add me to the list of those with a clock ticking. Picked mine up on the 16th, and it stays wrapped until we know if the NT can be rooted - or day 14 - whichever comes first.
Progress is great so far - but I don't want a device that can be locked down with any random update from B&N. Based on their earlier broken promises, they have about zero credibility for things said.
Let me retract my line about broken promises - that was Amazon that promised no rooting roadblocks - and they kept to their word. I don't think B&N made any statement about this.
A petition is good, for sure. But it doesn't hurt if everyone also contacted B&N [[email protected]] and explained personally and sincerely why it would be in their best interest to unlock the Tablet. I'd focus on how their specs are superior, but useless if they're not open. I'd mention the limited space for side-loading, and enabling 3rd party apps.
I'd remind them how popular their Nook Color got, and free press, when the NC was rooted. And use the MS Kinect & Linksys WRT-54G as examples of success stories when a company adopts and opens their hardware.
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
e.mote said:
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
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If everyone were to do what you're saying, B&N would lose 3% of NT's total sales (judging by statistics someone referenced here), call it within a sales estimation margin of error and ignore it.
And we'd all be left without a $250 tablet, or with a ****tier one.
Sorry, don't like your solution. It'd only work if, say, 25%+ of NT buyers wanted root.
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
e.mote said:
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
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People have different reasons.
For one, if I were to call for mass returns of NT, that'd greatly decrease interest in rooting the NT, which makes it even worse. If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies. As I've mentioned, ask SuperCurio and his collaboration with Samsung.
I, for one, had a $100 gift card for B&N, so it's $150 NT versus $200 KF for me. Regardless, even without that giftcard, I'd still not go for KF when there's NT around, cause KF is just gimped and kinda useless.
Regardless, can we please return to the topic of this thread - I'm looking for someone's help writing a letter to B&N asking them for help achieving root for developers.
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances. Welcome to the world of SLACKTIVISM.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
e.mote said:
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
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Dude, we get it. You're not happy. Return your NT and leave the NT forum. We're all just trying to have a friendly discussion here. There's no need to be so negative. Thank you.
Sent from my Nook Tablet using Tapatalk
Hi
I have been thinking about why has nobody created an app like WatchChat but for Wear OS
I have no idea how to create it, but I think if you create it you will earn a lot of money. A lot of people would be happy to pay for a suscription to use that
It sucks to only be able to answer notifications and not being able to open a chat and write
Smart Watches has a lot of potential, But there aren't many apps available
yes we can do a lot of money with this
Hey everyone, actually I also had a Wear OS version in the store for like a year however it wasn't financially viable to keep it online so I had to pull it unfortunately.
Probably the biggest issue was piracy which is a huge problem especially on the Play Store but even with that factored out, there unfortunately wasn't much money to be made. Besides that, on Android you generally have a much lower conversion rate due to people expecting stuff for free.
Not blaming anyone, back when I was in school I'd rather put hours into finding a crack and installing dodgy APK's (soft bricking my device and on the bright side learning a lot along the way) instead of simply paying 50 cents for an app, I definitely know where some people are coming from with that and I can't judge - but the bottom line is the same, I wasn't able to justify putting any more work into this since it couldn't attract many people so I had to drop it.
I may get back to Android development at some point, maybe things have changed since then but at the moment that's the status.
alexbassapps said:
Hey everyone, actually I also had a Wear OS version in the store for like a year however it wasn't financially viable to keep it online so I had to pull it unfortunately.
Probably the biggest issue was piracy which is a huge problem especially on the Play Store but even with that factored out, there unfortunately wasn't much money to be made. Besides that, on Android you generally have a much lower conversion rate due to people expecting stuff for free.
Not blaming anyone, back when I was in school I'd rather put hours into finding a crack and installing dodgy APK's (soft bricking my device and on the bright side learning a lot along the way) instead of simply paying 50 cents for an app, I definitely know where some people are coming from with that and I can't judge - but the bottom line is the same, I wasn't able to justify putting any more work into this since it couldn't attract many people so I had to drop it.
I may get back to Android development at some point, maybe things have changed since then but at the moment that's the status.
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I just sold my Galaxy Watch 4 Classic, I will switch to Apple Watch because I really need an app like WatchChat
I don't like iPhones, I was very happy with the S21 Ultra, but I'm a medical student and I need to check my messages fast and write fast too and I can't take out my phone because I'm not allowed to