Best Video/Movie Player - Hero, G2 Touch Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting

Hello there, I am going on a two week holiday, and want to watch a movie or two on my phone, the files are about 700mb, file formats are .avi and .mp4 .... whats the best player to play these smoothly???

I've found QQPlayer gets the best performance on my hero.

Moboplayer .....
I Think moboplayer is Best .....

Sometimes, the players are only playing videos correctly incoded for your device.
As an example, with Mobo Player(that I found really great) I can't play any .avi video correctly, it freezes all the time, ...
But with .mp4 format I have no problem...
Moreover, some encoded mp4 videos have some video bitrates that are too high, and the player can't decode it...
So, as for me you should try to re-encode instead of trying to find the best player.
The player is only UI about, so it depends on the things you're looking for

I've tried a few different players, and most of them work really poorly on the Hero. RockPlayer plays everything I've tried, but the FPS is usually low, and the audio keeps getting out of sync. QQPlayer didn't play the clips i wanted to, so i can't say for that.
The best playback I've seen was with yxplayer. There were a lot of small artifacts, but the fps and audio was ok. The UI is pretty lousy though.
The simplest option IMO is to convert video beforehand, so it plays fine with the native hardware acceleration.

Related

[Q] How can I play MKVs on my phone WITH sound?

I've had a look around and this issue has been brought up a few times, but then just brushed over without a concrete answer.
I have a few MKVs that I want to play on my phone, but that don't have sound.
I've tried with the stock player and with Mplayer.
I've spent the last few hours googling how to convert MKVs to AVIs and whatnot and tried a few times all unsuccessful.
I don't really want to covert them anyway, they all work fine, just not on the phone.
The video plays smoothly, and subtitles show up if it has them, just no sound.
How can I fix this?
OGG Vorbis audio track? Try Moboplayer. I just found out it'll read and play it, subs included.
That's what I'm using, Moboplayer and the stock player.
No sound from either.
I just noticed Moboplayer has a bunc of codecs in the market, do I need to install one of them? Which one?
well i have sound with stock player and mkv.... what sound is it ? DTS, DD ?
i use Vplayer, works fine for me. shows picture sound and subs
SuperTheMando said:
I've had a look around and this issue has been brought up a few times, but then just brushed over without a concrete answer.
I have a few MKVs that I want to play on my phone, but that don't have sound.
I've tried with the stock player and with Mplayer.
I've spent the last few hours googling how to convert MKVs to AVIs and whatnot and tried a few times all unsuccessful.
I don't really want to covert them anyway, they all work fine, just not on the phone.
The video plays smoothly, and subtitles show up if it has them, just no sound.
How can I fix this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most mkv's contain an ac3 soundtrack.
The SII doesn't like that.
I convert mkv's to mp4 now with avidemux.
With these settings:
- video: copy
- audio: AAC
Works like a charm!
Edit: it's a 'cheap' conversion, it goes very fast because only the audio track is converted.
SuperTheMando said:
I just noticed Moboplayer has a bunc of codecs in the market, do I need to install one of them? Which one?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Mobo Player app should have an option to point you to the correct codec.
If you don't install the codec then it will only play the same formats as the stock video player.
I use mVideoPlayer, works fine for all of mine.
But I think DicePlayer has the best support for audio codecs, though it's only free for a trial period and doesn't support embedded subs (AFAIK).
I have these installed permanently as one of them usually does the job, I usually try stock first followed by mobo, then rock with Act1 and QQ as backups.
Dice is probably the best but isnt free.
Dice
mobo
rockplayer
act1
qq player
I have tried pretty much all other players, honestly dont waste your time or money on any of the others.
EDIT - sorry I forgot, since moving to this Phone I hace scrapped qq for everything and rock for HD stuff as it doesnt seem to decode as well as stock or mobo, always try stock first.
On my GS2 I do not see any option Mobo Player to point me to the correct codec, any clue?
MyrddinLXXIIX said:
Most mkv's contain an ac3 soundtrack.
The SII doesn't like that.
I convert mkv's to mp4 now with avidemux.
With these settings:
- video: copy
- audio: AAC
Works like a charm!
Edit: it's a 'cheap' conversion, it goes very fast because only the audio track is converted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like this idea best, it means I can play through the stock player, so I don't need to have unnecessary apps. I do like the stock player.
Is there any quality loss when doing this?
Will embedded subtitles carry over?
Edit: I just tried this, and the file it pushed out had a really low framerate. I could see jaggeddyness in frames.
Mobo is good. it's free.
Mobo's ffmpeg codec support almost all codecs.
but ffmpeg sw codec use CPU more than HW codec.
when playing 720p H.264+DTS mkv. mobo ( or rock ... ) sw codec use almost 100% CPU power.
Stock Player and DicePlayer use only 20-40% of CPU power. ( Audio codec use cpu.. )
SW codec players use lossy color convert and resize routine.
dithering or color loss will occur. ( you can see when playing dark scene )
HW Codec's Pros.
1. Performance ( Can Play 1080p )
2. Battery
3. image quality
Cons.
1. Codec compatibility ( but SGS2's HW codec is AWESOME. )
2. not supported codecs ( RMVB, VP6/7.. )
** dice player 1.1.2 add mkv embedded subs.
SuperTheMando said:
I like this idea best, it means I can play through the stock player, so I don't need to have unnecessary apps. I do like the stock player.
Is there any quality loss when doing this?
Will embedded subtitles carry over?
Edit: I just tried this, and the file it pushed out had a really low framerate. I could see jaggeddyness in frames.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Generally I get good results, but haven't tried it with movies yet.
Only 720p series with 25fps, no subtitles.
Back at my desktop tonight I will try a movie with subs.
The file I tried was a movie, 720p, no subs.
I don't know what it's framerate was, but it's pretty damn high. It looks seamless.
When I tried loading it with the app, I got this error. Maybe it is actually important and not to be overlooked?
I answered no.
SuperTheMando said:
The file I tried was a movie, 720p, no subs.
I don't know what it's framerate was, but it's pretty damn high. It looks seamless.
When I tried loading it with the app, I got this error. Maybe it is actually important and not to be overlooked?
I answered no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I answered no every time without much problems. Forwarding in the stock player seems a little slow sometimes but that might be normal.
25 is pretty standard for series I believe.
Converting gives the advantage of hardware acceleration and I do not want to loose that.
MyrddinLXXIIX said:
I answered no every time without much problems. Forwarding in the stock player seems a little slow sometimes but that might be normal.
25 is pretty standard for series I believe.
Converting gives the advantage of hardware acceleration and I do not want to loose that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Diceplayer give you hw acceleration without converting.
As promised...
Promised a follow-up with an mkv with subtitles.
I must admit I didn't get it to work yet.
Unclear to me if it is even possible, I found some info that the stock player will accept separate subtitles like .srt but I have not confirmed that yet.
Ran across another problem that put me off track.
Tried a conversion to mp4 with a movie but didn't think about the size restrictions.
Could not connect in Storage mode for some reason, so I tried to use SD-cards / usb-otg. No succes with 4 Gig+ files yet ~ using windows which has exFAT and NTFS, neither is working.
Possibly there is a filesystem that will do the job on Win7 and Android 2.3.3?
My research tells me that exFAT is not really available for Android, too tired atm to look for alternatives from the Win side.
Like USB-OTG very much, would like a way to get 4G+ files to my SII that way!
As I said, got sidetracked seriously ~ apologies if I got too far offtopic.

[Q] Video lag, audio out of sync?

Has anyone experienced video lagging causing audio to fall out of sync? I've been playing a small variety of .mkv files and some lag and others don't. What's most odd is that the largest file I've tried (24 minute 1.15GB, with subs) works fine, while a smaller file (24 minutes, 274MB, with subs) falls out of sync within a minute and doesn't re-sync until I move the playback head.
I've seen that other Android handsets seem to have similar issues, though the solution was usually to re-encode the file at a lower bitrate, but I don't get why a larger file would work fine while a smaller one would have sync problems?
Both video files I'm mentioning here are MPEG4 (h264), but the larger file's audio is Dolby AC3 48000Hz audio while the smaller one is AAC 44100Hz audio. I'm playing the video with mVideoPlayer and the videos are stored on the internal memory.
Edit: I've played the same file side-by-side on my laptop and phone, and it's definitely the video that's lagging.
Sorry for the bump, but I'd really like to know if anyone else is having this problem, or if there's a solution for it. No one else experiencing this problem?
I went back and tested multiple players mentioned here on the boards. I tested every player using the same file, one that lagged in the stock player and in mVideoPlayer. Here's a rundown of my results:
VPlayer: no lag, no matter what combination of settings used
RockPlayer: lags in hardware decoding mode, no lag in software decoding mode but terrible video quality (artifacting everywhere)
MoboPlayer: lags (in hardware decoding mode?), no lag in "default software decoding"
mVideoPlayer: lags
stock player: lags
I don't know what's causing the lag, but it almost seems like the players relying on hardware decoding are mainly the ones that lag. Not all files lag, just certain ones, as mentioned earlier.
usually, the reason why video & audio out of sync is the bitrate and framerate are inconsistent, in this case, i suggest u using a video tool, with the video tool, there are two solutions for you:
1. you can convert mkv to the format that compatibled well by galaxys 2
2. just import the mkv video into the tool, then adjust bitrate and framerate.
i prefer the first way, the second way you need trying many times.
for myself, i use fox real video converter, it has video audio sync technology
Thanks for the suggestions. Part of my decision to buy the GS2 was the fact that it could play large video files without conversion since I don't have the time to constantly re-encode video files. Will probably drop the $4.99 on VPlayer since it's been playing my files well. Still prefer mVideoPlayer tho.
Is there some way to check if a file has inconsistencies between bitrate and framerate as you've mentioned?
I convert MKV files to play on my PS3 with a great tool called mkv2vob. It can convert a 1.5GB movie in about 2 minutes, so I imagine it's not actually encoding at all. I'm just curious as to whether it would solve your problem, especially with it being such a quick and easy app to use.
http://www.mkv2vob.com/showthread.php?tid=1
Giving mkv2vob a shot, but it's taking far longer to convert than 2 minutes. My ~250MB file is about 25% through video transcoding, and I'm already 5 minutes in. Will report back whether it worked or not, but I don't think I'll be doing this for every video that lags.
Okey-dokey, here's what happened with the video file I converted with mkv2vob:
It output an mpg file that was unplayable or problematic in mVideoPlayer, MoboPlayer, Rock Player Lite, and lagged in VPlayer. Encoding/transcoding took about 30 minutes, and the resulting file was 337MB, up from the original's 273MB.
I guess you could say it didn't work out well. I found it interesting hat the file lagged in VPlayer where before the same file played fine before the conversion.
-Tj- said:
Thanks for the suggestions. Part of my decision to buy the GS2 was the fact that it could play large video files without conversion since I don't have the time to constantly re-encode video files. Will probably drop the $4.99 on VPlayer since it's been playing my files well. Still prefer mVideoPlayer tho.
Is there some way to check if a file has inconsistencies between bitrate and framerate as you've mentioned?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't know how to check the file, when i met this problem, i just import the file into the video tool, by viewing the preview to adjust some parameters
i have the same problem with my neverlocked and unrooted sgs2 running firmware "pda:kf3/phone:kf7": mp4 videos with x264 video codec and AAC VBR audio codec loose audio-video sync. i.e. the video lags behind and you hear people talking before they open their mouth. using xvid4psp 5.0 i experimented with the used audio codec. when recoding the videos to mp4 with x264 video codec and AAC ABR av sync is o.k.. using MP3 as audio codec also works but since AAC is the mp4 standard audio codec i'll stick to that.
and by the way: using another video player like vplayer also works with the problematic AAC VBR videos. since vplayer does software-decoding i suspect a problem with the hardware-decoding layer in combination with certain video/audio codec combinations (like x264 und AAC VBR). the benefits of hardware-accelerated-decoding are better performance and lower battery drain. therefore i want to stick with the stock-video-player (because i asume it is strictly using hardware-accelerated-decoding).

720p / 1080ü MKV playback?

i have the TF101, which unfortunately only plays 720p and 1080p files very choppy (someone told me you you re-encode them for the tf101 but meh).
do you guys think the prime will bw able t play such MKVs with no issue? im talking about normal 72ßp/108ßp mkvs which you can dl all ovwer the net, not specially encoded ones.
eos666 said:
i have the TF101, which unfortunately only plays 720p and 1080p files very choppy (someone told me you you re-encode them for the tf101 but meh).
do you guys think the prime will bw able t play such MKVs with no issue? im talking about normal 72ßp/108ßp mkvs which you can dl all ovwer the net, not specially encoded ones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anandtech says it's amazing at playing high quality video. this was an issue for me.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5163/asus-eee-pad-transformer-prime-nvidia-tegra-3-review/5
crap, guess now i have to buy the prime
Plus in the what would you like to know about the prime thread a member already tested this as he has a prime already. It was mkv and 1080p. Played flawlessly. He made a video on it. He has at least 3 you tube vids reviewing the prime hands on.
Check out his videos in that thread n you will see.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
tegra3 has the ability to play high profile 1080p videos, the prime should do just fine with pretty much anything you can throw at it...
Tegra 3 may support 1080p and all, but question is, if default video player, that uses HW decoding, supports MKV format. My iPad 2 supports all kinds of HD, as long as it's in proper format. MKVs play very choppy if I use a player for any format other than iPad supported.
Meanee said:
Tegra 3 may support 1080p and all, but question is, if default video player, that uses HW decoding, supports MKV format. My iPad 2 supports all kinds of HD, as long as it's in proper format. MKVs play very choppy if I use a player for any format other than iPad supported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Default player doesn't even matter. Even if a format not supported, there are always 3rd party players which will. The member here that has a prime used a 3rd. Party player to play that 1080P MKV file. Which it played perfectly. No default player in any tablet plays all formats. That's the great thing about getting a good 3rd. Prty player that will.
demandarin said:
Default player doesn't even matter. Even if a format not supported, there are always 3rd party players which will. The member here that has a prime used a 3rd. Party player to play that 1080P MKV file. Which it played perfectly. No default player in any tablet plays all formats. That's the great thing about getting a good 3rd. Prty player that will.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
default player plays the video fine, but for some reason theres no sound.
bsplay, mxplayer and rock player are all HD accelerated players.
When someone goes to play with a demo at gamestop, they should take with them a micro sd that has a high profile 1080p mkv and see how that plays on the prime. They should add other video players on the card and install them and see which one plays better with the high profile mkv. Yes I know that reviews have said this or that, but having someone that is not part of any review circle would be grateful to many.
I would do this but I'm not popping my head in that gamestop store after getting that dump.
this guy plays a high profile mkv in his review...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8d4tPW_6Cw&feature=player_detailpage#t=323s
speed817 said:
this guy plays a high profile mkv in his review...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8d4tPW_6Cw&feature=player_detailpage#t=323s
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That guy posted two above you. lol
oh hahaha. wasn't paying attention i guess =P
I wonder how Prime will play avi files. I find that playing avi on TF101 is fine but the quality is very bad - I get a lot of artifacts - like it had a grid of dots over it. Probably because players use simplified decoding algoritms? Or maybe it's because Tegra2 lacks NEON? I also think it should be able to send 1080p signal to the screen even if the video is below 1080p (and different than 720p) - otherwise it will be scaled twice - once to 720p by the Prime and second time by the monitor itself - it will probably degrade quality. (well, but on the other hand I can just stick to 720p and 1080p videos which should be great)
Tegra3 does have NEON so no worries.
andyxover said:
default player plays the video fine, but for some reason theres no sound.
bsplay, mxplayer and rock player are all HD accelerated players.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had this same problem with a 1080p .MOV file off of my DSLR as well as a MKV file. I haven't tried mxplayer, but I will when I get home. I've been looking forward to being able to play MKV files without having to convert or manage with iTunes. Like Sinatra sang, "I'll do it my way!"
somehow I can't copy mkv to my asus prime... it keeps saying explorer error and it restarts the explorer
I have been playing around with my Prime for the last 5 days, especially in regards with video. Here are my findings:
- Not all files can be played back with HW decoding.
- mkv containers does not seem to be playable in the default player, only 3rd part, like mx video player.
- 720p mkv plays back almost flawlessly with some initial stutter in SW, 1080p does not.
- mp4 and avi seem to be HW accelerated by mx video player.
I am not entirely sure on what seem to be the problem. My initial reaction is that it is a problem with the container formats. However, I have not checked whether the videos, that I have tried to play, have some exotic encoding settings, which the software controling the HW decoder, does not recognize.
Perhaps mkw HW acceleration support broke in one of the updates I received, when I booted my prime for first time monday.
What are your experiences, especially with 1080p?
ph0ton said:
I have been playing around with my Prime for the last 5 days, especially in regards with video. Here are my findings:
- Not all files can be played back with HW decoding.
- mkv containers does not seem to be playable in the default player, only 3rd part, like mx video player.
- 720p mkv plays back almost flawlessly with some initial stutter in SW, 1080p does not.
- mp4 and avi seem to be HW accelerated by mx video player.
I am not entirely sure on what seem to be the problem. My initial reaction is that it is a problem with the container formats. However, I have not checked whether the videos, that I have tried to play, have some exotic encoding settings, which the software controling the HW decoder, does not recognize.
Perhaps mkw HW acceleration support broke in one of the updates I received, when I booted my prime for first time monday.
What are your experiences, especially with 1080p?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try the same videos but with BSplayer ... let us know if that works ?
Danny-B- said:
Try the same videos but with BSplayer ... let us know if that works ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The first three high profile 720p MKV files I tried with BSPlayer worked flawlessly. Same videos will not play at all on my Xoom.
Danny-B- said:
Try the same videos but with BSplayer ... let us know if that works ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will do when I get home. I will also try the same videos on my SGSII for comparison.
My hunch is that the hw decoder refuses to decode the video stream. Perhaps this is controlled entirely by the android system and not the video player app.

[Q] View locks up playing 720p mkv files?

Anyone have any luck getting the View or Flyer to play 720p mkv files? Using mx video player, the files will play for a few seconds, then the player freezes. Shows that it is using hardware decoding in the few seconds before the freeze. If I quickly switch it to SW fast decoding, it will play but the CPU can't keep up so the playback is jerky.
The same files played fine on my OG Epic with HW decoding (obviously I know hummingbird <> snapdragon) and my ET4G. They also stream just fine to my PS3, so I'm pretty sure it's not the files. Anyone else have any ideas?
My workaround right now is just to handbrake the files to 1024x600 mp4 files (which play just fine with the hardware decoder, just adds an extra step that takes awhile even with my 3.2ghz C2Q).
Have you tried a different video player? I hear MoboPlayer is quite good.
nubyw00tz said:
Have you tried a different video player? I hear MoboPlayer is quite good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I should have specified that I tried mobo and rockvideo player. The others either don't work at all (rock) or didn't handle DTS audio (mobo).
I think you need to compress the files in Handbrake (try keeping it at 1280x720). I wonder if its just the file size that's the problem. It makes sense more powerful phones/devices can handle them. Perhaps the tablet just can't handle it. I haven't yet received my View, but I think the View just can't handle the videos you are using.
I'm using mx player and can play 720p x264 encoded videos in mkv containers smoothly.

[Q] Video Player. Which one?

Hey guys,
Loving my Prime but I'm finding the video playback hit and miss to be honest.
I'm finding them all very buggy and most of them kick me out of the video randomly even without anything else running.
All of the below run perfectly on my friends Galaxy SII so it may be ICS?
I want to play back XVIDs and MKVs with subtitle support.
Below are the players I've tried and their results:
Google Videos:
Reads MicroSD
Plays MKV (some without sound) but NOT XVID
Doesn't support subtitles
STABLE
Rockplayer
Plays XVID & MKV
No subtitle support
UNSTABLE
MX Video Player Pro
Plays XVID & MKV
Subtitle support
UNSTABLE
MoboPlayer
Plays XVID & MKV
No subtitle support
UNSTABLE
How have you guys been finding video playback on this guy?
I play on using this tablet for a lot of video consumption so I'd love to get this sorted.
Thanks for the help!
Dice Player has been gold for me, playing everything I've thrown at it (720p mkv, avi, mpeg). I haven't tried anything with subtitles, but it supposedly supports them.
There's currently only the ad-supported version available, but the ads are small and don't show up at all should you use microHDMI to display the video on an external screen.
MX video player has worked great for me. Try different encoders if something in your video isn't working well (ie, HW, SW, etc). Also, try re-installing if you think ICS broke it.
Diceplayer is the best I think. Plays everything just fine and have good setting for subtitle.
I watch my videos most with subtitle and i haven't had any problems. Easy to change size and if you long press on the subtitle text you can move it up and down. Also have easy access to change the subtitle sync. And the add only shows when the controls are showing. here You don't see the add when the video plays and the controls and status bar hides.
And if some videos don't play properly i say that the problem often is the video file that is encoded strange.
MX Pro works great for me even on my high profile x264 encodes. SW decoder works better than HW decoder (go figure right? I would have thought the opposite) with fast mode disabled.
Edit: I have to agree with Andreas, if you're having playback issues it's likely the video not the player. Encoding is a subtle art, not everyone gets it right. Get your vids from well known sources like Thora.
Thanks a million guys.
MX Player Pro doesn't support HW decoding on the Transformer Prime. At least on mine it doesn't. Dunno why. And its really flakey. It keep crashing out on any file I try to play (XVID, MP4, MKV)
DicePlayer is WIN so far! Thanks for the recommend!
It's playing everything with subtitles too.
The only thing I don't like about it is the background 'behind' the movie is a gradient from black at the top to grey at the bottom so on some movies you've got a grey at the bottom of the picture instead of it playing on a full black background.
Unless you guys know how I can change that I'll be using DicePlayer until something better comes along.
HURRY UP VLC!
HW decoding technically works on my Prime, but SW decoding performs better. Is the option not even available for you in settings? Free or Pro? Also, no VLC...ever. Just no.
OK!
Very happy to report that after purchasing the full version of MX Player Pro EVERYTHING WORKS GREAT!!!!
Many thanks again guys!
XDA ROCKS!
lediva said:
Dice Player has been gold for me, playing everything I've thrown at it (720p mkv, avi, mpeg). I haven't tried anything with subtitles, but it supposedly supports them.
There's currently only the ad-supported version available, but the ads are small and don't show up at all should you use microHDMI to display the video on an external screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another vote for DICE. Hopefully they can get their payment issues sorted out.
Dice is the best IMO. I run huge 1080p files and only Dice can handle it without a hiccup. MX Player Pro has a skip every once and a while. Not that big but Dice doesn't do it so it wins.
VitalPlayer Pro seems to work well. It can't navigate to the MicroSD card though.
BSPlayer has worked well for me. I use the lite version and all is good. It handles all video/audio as well has HW decoding for supported video types.
My vote goes to Dice player. It is the only one that I have tested that doesn't have audio lag when I am using bluetooth headphones. Also it plays everything I can throw at it.
And don't forget to instal mx player codec pack for armv7.. In market too.
MX Player will prompt you if it needs a codec pack installed. In the Primes case it does not, it is good to go.
Since I use and like DVD Catalyst 4 to convert my DVD's to video I also use their video app called Movie Gallery. Not sure if it plays all codecs but it sure works great with my converted DVD's
I used to use VPlayer when it was beta/free but now I use vlc for android http://cvpcs.org/blog/2011-09-18/videolan_for_android_pre-alpha
I get my TFP tomorrow but it works on my phone and the OG transformer according to the post so it should work on the prime. NONeon btw at least the OG was NONeon
I sure hope that it does.
video and sound on tv, subtitle on prime
I've tried Dice- and MX player and with both programs I get sound and video on my tv playing avi but the subs will be displayed only on the Prime. Has anyone the same problem or does someone a solution?
Does MXPlayer require an internet connection for the key verification? I saw some reviews that stated it did. Obviously on a wifi only device i may be without internet... Anyone have trouble with this?
Schutter said:
I've tried Dice- and MX player and with both programs I get sound and video on my tv playing avi but the subs will be displayed only on the Prime. Has anyone the same problem or does someone a solution?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have to use software decoding if you want soft subs, the hardware decoder on the prime doesn't handle them when outputting.

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