I'm 99.9% sold on the Amaze, I will probably be ordering this weekend.
One niggling doubt is the s-off issue. I see that it hasn't been achieved yet, though you can unlock the bootloader via the HTC.com dev code, and that allows perma-rooting and Custom Roms to be installed.
My questions are:
What would S-off achieve? Would there be more impressive roms that use the space and/or resources from /system or somewhere else that can't be touched without S-off? Is a CM 9 possible for the Amaze without S-off? In the CM forums, the "last" word so far is that it hasn't been included on the official list because "it doesn't even have S-off yet".
Is there a difference warranty-wise? I understand the _possible_ implication of asking HTC for the code, they have you in some database that says you unlocked the bootloader. But as for the device itself, is one undoable and the other not?
I understand that flashing kernels would be harder without s-off because it would have to be done via adb, I think I understood. This is no big deal in itself.
Finally: if you unlock the bootloader via the HTC code, and weeks or months down the road an exploit is found to gain S-Off, are you hosed because you used the code and didn't wait?
I'd like to know so I can make my decision before getting the phone. If it's very disadvantageous to use the code rather than wait for S-off, for one reason or another, then I'd have to decide if I can live with only temp-rooting the device.
I am not going to use it on T-Mobile, I'm in Venezuela and will use it with my carrier here, so the unnecessary bloat will be even more of an annoyance, because on top of it sucking, it won't even work; so it would be important for me to at least root to get rid of it.
I'm sorry if my questions are too expansive, I picked up bits and pieces of information in other posts, but none of them answered these questions clearly. Thank you very much to all those who can help me answer them.
el_ochito said:
I'm 99.9% sold on the Amaze, I will probably be ordering this weekend.
One niggling doubt is the s-off issue. I see that it hasn't been achieved yet, though you can unlock the bootloader via the HTC.com dev code, and that allows perma-rooting and Custom Roms to be installed.
My questions are:
What would S-off achieve? Would there be more impressive roms that use the space and/or resources from /system or somewhere else that can't be touched without S-off? Is a CM 9 possible for the Amaze without S-off? In the CM forums, the "last" word so far is that it hasn't been included on the official list because "it doesn't even have S-off yet".
Is there a difference warranty-wise? I understand the _possible_ implication of asking HTC for the code, they have you in some database that says you unlocked the bootloader. But as for the device itself, is one undoable and the other not?
I understand that flashing kernels would be harder without s-off because it would have to be done via adb, I think I understood. This is no big deal in itself.
Finally: if you unlock the bootloader via the HTC code, and weeks or months down the road an exploit is found to gain S-Off, are you hosed because you used the code and didn't wait?
I'd like to know so I can make my decision before getting the phone. If it's very disadvantageous to use the code rather than wait for S-off, for one reason or another, then I'd have to decide if I can live with only temp-rooting the device.
I am not going to use it on T-Mobile, I'm in Venezuela and will use it with my carrier here, so the unnecessary bloat will be even more of an annoyance, because on top of it sucking, it won't even work; so it would be important for me to at least root to get rid of it.
I'm sorry if my questions are too expansive, I picked up bits and pieces of information in other posts, but none of them answered these questions clearly. Thank you very much to all those who can help me answer them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know where to start with all of your questions but I will do my best.
The difference between S-OFF and Unlocked bootloader is that with S-OFF you can flash anything including a radio and supposedly it would give us the ability to update the kernel by recovery. With an unlocked bootloader we cannot update the radio or kernel but can pretty much change everything else. An unlocked bootloader is required to root your device and remove all the bloat that you don't like. You can temp root the device to remove that bloatware however they will re-appear after a reboot. It has been under some debate if in fact using the unlock_code.bin file provided by htcdev is going to void your warranty if your device would require servicing. If it's vital to know that information then call HTC to inquire before unlocking.
Regarding CM9, it is possible but slightly inconvenient since CM9 would almost certainly require a different kernel and since we cannot flash kernels by recovery it would have to be done in a very certain order. Is it currently in the works? To my understanding, yes! Any idea when you can see it as a download here in the forums? Not at this time. Check back daily because things change frequently!
Thanks a lot for your response, Binary. I see you have an Amaze and have indeed unlocked its bootloader, so I guess the real question would be: when and if s-off is achieved, will you be able to do it even though you've already unlocked the bootloader with the .bin file?
Warranty would be terribly hard for me to take advantage of anyways after the initial check. If I don't RMA the unit, then I'm pretty much gambling on the fact that it will work well no matter what, since sending it back to the US from Venezuela would be a major PITA, so I don't really care much about voiding it.
el_ochito said:
Thanks a lot for your response, Binary. I see you have an Amaze and have indeed unlocked its bootloader, so I guess the real question would be: when and if s-off is achieved, will you be able to do it even though you've already unlocked the bootloader with the .bin file?
Warranty would be terribly hard for me to take advantage of anyways after the initial check. If I don't RMA the unit, then I'm pretty much gambling on the fact that it will work well no matter what, since sending it back to the US from Venezuela would be a major PITA, so I don't really care much about voiding it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no reason that having an unlocked bootloader will interfere with being able to obtain s-off in the future because we can always relock the bootloader when (or if) it comes down to it.
Binary100100 said:
I don't know where to start with all of your questions but I will do my best.
The difference between S-OFF and Unlocked bootloader is that with S-OFF you can flash anything including a radio and supposedly it would give us the ability to update the kernel by recovery. With an unlocked bootloader we cannot update the radio or kernel but can pretty much change everything else. An unlocked bootloader is required to root your device and remove all the bloat that you don't like. You can temp root the device to remove that bloatware however they will re-appear after a reboot. It has been under some debate if in fact using the unlock_code.bin file provided by htcdev is going to void your warranty if your device would require servicing. If it's vital to know that information then call HTC to inquire before unlocking.
Regarding CM9, it is possible but slightly inconvenient since CM9 would almost certainly require a different kernel and since we cannot flash kernels by recovery it would have to be done in a very certain order. Is it currently in the works? To my understanding, yes! Any idea when you can see it as a download here in the forums? Not at this time. Check back daily because things change frequently!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your words helped me a lot. I was thinking about the diff between s-on/off and lock.unlock bootloader for long. Thanks so much
Related
In regards to obtaining root, where does the unlocking of the bootloader come into play? I'm assuming that with a locked bootloader we will not be able to ever root our devices without some leak from HTC. But with the bootloader unlocked we still need to find an exploit in order to get root.
What I don't fully understand is why HTC would unlock the bootloader for us. Is there some sort of legitimate/developmental reason, beyond obtaining root, for us to demand that they unlock?
I guess the real question is, is locking the bootloader the ultimate block of root, and HTC is capitulating because they only want to make discovering a root exploit difficult, but not impossible, to appease the carriers?
Has this been explained ad nauseam and I'm late to the party?
tstack77 said:
In regards to obtaining root, where does the unlocking of the bootloader come into play? I'm assuming that with a locked bootloader we will not be able to ever root our devices without some leak from HTC. But with the bootloader unlocked we still need to find an exploit in order to get root.
What I don't fully understand is why HTC would unlock the bootloader for us. Is there some sort of legitimate/developmental reason, beyond obtaining root, for us to demand that they unlock?
I guess the real question is, is locking the bootloader the ultimate block of root, and HTC is capitulating because they only want to make discovering a root exploit difficult, but not impossible, to appease the carriers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not the best to explain it... But, lets give it a go.
A locked bootloader prevents the loading of custom ROMS. If we had that ability, we could bake in root. You can still root with a locked bootloader, but it then becomes an issue of finding an exploit to gain root.
As for a legitimate reason... It's our phone, and we should have the right to do what we will with it. Yes, dev is another legitimate reason.. but ultimately it's about freedom to use own devices as we want.
tstack77 said:
In regards to obtaining root, where does the unlocking of the bootloader come into play? I'm assuming that with a locked bootloader we will not be able to ever root our devices without some leak from HTC. But with the bootloader unlocked we still need to find an exploit in order to get root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As stated above, I believe that we can technically root our phones even with a locked bootloader. The problem with it being locked is that we cannot use a custom recovery to flash custom roms etc. In order for root to work properly we also need Superuser permission, and being locked or S-ON blocks us from doing so. Basically, a locked bootloader takes away from the full benefits of rooting in the first place.
tstack77 said:
What I don't fully understand is why HTC would unlock the bootloader for us. Is there some sort of legitimate/developmental reason, beyond obtaining root, for us to demand that they unlock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My reply above explains this for the most part. But why would they or should they unlock the bootloader? They stated in a press release that all of their phones would have an unlocked bootloader. Ofcourse, this was shortly before the Evo 3D launched so they were producing the phones for quite some time before they made this decision or as many see it as a promise. So really, they should unlock in order to prevent themselves from losing many loyal customers but also to avoid class action lawsuits for not following through with something people would see as false advertisement. (Class action lawsuits are a whole different story, but we won't go into that)
tstack77 said:
I guess the real question is, is locking the bootloader the ultimate block of root, and HTC is capitulating because they only want to make discovering a root exploit difficult, but not impossible, to appease the carriers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it is not the ultimate block of root but it will take a lot longer for us to obtain root. I am confident that our dev's will find a way eventually to unlock the damn thing, especially if HTC takes forever to unlock it. Think about it... that would be a huge slap in the face to HTC if we obtain root before they give us the update to unlock the bootloader. I think that a big factor in this war is in fact carriers pressuring them to keep the phone locked down because of the things that we can do with root. Sprint want's us to pay for their tethering services, so why would they want us to be able to do it for free with root.
Hope this helps you understand things a little bit better. I think I covered my bases and I am not entirely sure that it is all correct, but to my understanding this is how things work.
Thank you. That does explain the issue quite well . It's not that we cannot get root, but that we cannot write our own recovery image.
I still see it as them finally figuring out a way to block the community, but I am truly amazed that we have become such a power that we can sway HTC to "allow" all our fun.
I would not even think of buying the E3d if we couldn't apply custom roms. Everyone here ROCKS
So as some of us should know HTC Legend can now be Hboot unlocked and can gain S-off. Now, a question for some of you phone nerds out there, what benefits does having S-off actually give you, other than running adblocking applications. I've been thinking about unlocking my bootloader to get S-off but heard that it is an irreversible method, so I need to make sure if it is worth it or not.
-cheers
That's a good question, what can one do with on S-off legend that you can't do with the new unlocked bootloader. Except return under warranty.
BTW HTC knows we unlocked our phone, that is why we need to provide a device token.
Sent from my HTC Legend using XDA App
If I know correct, S-OFFing is a unlocking procedure that gives access to /radio and simlock.
So, unlocked bootloader gives every access except /radio and simlock. To get these you'd have to S-OFF, which is impossible on 1.02.0000 (?)
He actually wants to know the benefits of unlocking his bootloader through the HTC-way.
Benefits include being able to flash a recovery (No more fakeflash recovery booting needed)
And alter animations/host file/everything else that lives in /system/. Apps like metamorph need this. All in all it's a pretty easy procedure, and there's little reason not to do it, especially if your warranty has expired.
pepijn499 said:
He actually wants to know the benefits of unlocking his bootloader through the HTC-way.
Benefits include being able to flash a recovery (No more fakeflash recovery booting needed)
And alter animations/host file/everything else that lives in /system/. Apps like metamorph need this. All in all it's a pretty easy procedure, and there's little reason not to do it, especially if your warranty has expired.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I won't be doing it anytime sooner since my 2 year contract isn't even halfway yet. Cheers for the input.
Sent from my Legend using xda premium
I haven't exactly rooted 100 devices before. Most of the root utilities I've used were things like Z4Root where it's one click and done. I've recently become interested in flashing my Incredible 4G LTE. On top of that, I've already rooted my Nexus 7 using instructions like this here.
http://forums.androidcentral.com/ne...ide-factory-image-restore-your-nexus-7-a.html
I'm curious if this guide, being that it's more of a manual way to do it since it involves running several commands (I ran this from my Linux desktop to root my N7) is anything like what it would be to root the Incredible manually, or any device. I guess the only device that would be different would likely be the bootloader step (grouper?) since HTC likely did their's differently than Google with the Nexus 7, no?
Just trying to get more insight on it, as I certainly don't want to brick anything but I'd like to get them done. :good:
It seems to me that we would first need a modified bootloader or /system to attempt to flash, but I doubt "fastboot erase ..." is allowed without dev unlock on the bootloader, and "fastboot flash ..." most likely needs a signed image.
Does anyone with more expertise on this topic have any input?
JaSauders said:
I haven't exactly rooted 100 devices before. Most of the root utilities I've used were things like Z4Root where it's one click and done. I've recently become interested in flashing my Incredible 4G LTE. On top of that, I've already rooted my Nexus 7 using instructions like this here.
http://forums.androidcentral.com/ne...ide-factory-image-restore-your-nexus-7-a.html
I'm curious if this guide, being that it's more of a manual way to do it since it involves running several commands (I ran this from my Linux desktop to root my N7) is anything like what it would be to root the Incredible manually, or any device. I guess the only device that would be different would likely be the bootloader step (grouper?) since HTC likely did their's differently than Google with the Nexus 7, no?
Just trying to get more insight on it, as I certainly don't want to brick anything but I'd like to get them done. :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What those tools do is use an exploit to write the su and superuser.apk to /system and/or a modified recovery for flashing ROMS and kernels on unlocked bootloader devices.
google has properly patched those exploits as they should as we don't want a malicious app installing Root and hacking data on just anyone's phone.
Some phones with locked bootloaders have had exploits to install custom recovery and/or hacked/leaked bootloaders in order to allow us to use the phone like it was unlocked. HTC fixed this issue with their latest phones.
Their bootloaders now do not run all of the adb commands until unlocked by HTC dev, which limits us a lot. They also made it so that even if we DID manage to find a software exploit and start flashing stuff, the locked bootloader would know, via a signature check, that something was modified... and refuse to boot (Bricked Phone).
HTC Dev unlock is not true unlock either. We still can't modify the HBOOT w/o triggering it to brick the phone. An unlocked HTC bootloader limits changing the kernel to HBOOT mode only, which means u need a PC and extra steps to finish flashing any ROM.
Some brilliant Dev's managed to use RUU files to update the kernel only, but that also causes issues. If one Dev uses a newer RUU, you can't use the another Dev's older RUU to flash a kernel because the unlocked HTC Bootloader doesn't allow you to "Downgrade" firmware. This leads to headaches with people ignoring the kernel step and screaming because their phone won't boot.
The ultimate Holy grail for is is what is known as "S-OFF"
This allows full access to the HBOOT Recovery and system for all of our awesome devs to work their magic. This was obtained (long after HTCDev unlock) with the Rezound only through a HARDWARE exploit. We needed root exploit (which we had on the GB stock ROM), and to physically short out a pin on the mainboard to ground at precise times while the SOFF program ran on your PC.
We have to wait for the less popular HTCDev unlock (which HTC Did give us on the rezound with a middle finger to verizon), or for some1 to find another Exploit that would bypass the signature check of the HBOOT and give us "S-OFF".
Either will give us Root, custom recoveries, and ROMs.
I am no dev, but this is my understanding of what's happening with these devices. This is my 9th android device, 5th HTC, but I am always learning more. Dev's feel free to correct me, or expand on anything I have written here ^^
if HTC allows downgrading the bootloader so I can install a custom rom after I make the mistake of taking an OTA update from ATT. With the S4 this wasn't possible. but since this is my first android phone, I was wondering if it was Samsung trying to keep the device "secure" or ATT forcing these companies to keep their bootloaders locked.
some_douchebag said:
if HTC allows downgrading the bootloader so I can install a custom rom after I make the mistake of taking an OTA update from ATT. With the S4 this wasn't possible. but since this is my first android phone, I was wondering if it was Samsung trying to keep the device "secure" or ATT forcing these companies to keep their bootloaders locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Once you unlock the boot loader no update can relock it. HTC offers a lot more freedom than samsung, but at the price of no warranty. So if you unlock it and shatter your screen, don't be upset like other people when htc will not warranty it. As long as you have a custom recovery, your phone cannot even physically take an ota update so nothing to worry about either way.
The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is in place for us consumers for this reason. The company has to prove that any modification you did, is the cause of the trouble. So if you unlock your bootloader, root, etc, then crack your screen, as the poster above mentioned, the company can not void your warranty since what you did has nothing to do with cracking your screen.
This was huge for me when I modified my car and I found this here on XDA after doing more searching
http://www.xda-developers.com/xda-tv-2/your-warranty-is-not-void-xda-tv/
Oh and yeah,,if you are outside the US, it wont work lol
some_douchebag said:
if HTC allows downgrading the bootloader
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That depends on what you mean by "allow". You cannot downgrade the bootloader by any "official" means. You will fail version check when you try to install, as you can "normally" only flash a equal or great version number hboot.
But if you are s-off, version check is bypassed, and any hboot version can be flashed.
Similar to a previous response, my advice would be to unlock the bootloader (required if you want to flash custom ROMs anyway) and S-off the phone soon after you get it. Neither of those can be changed by any OTA.
Also, accepting OTA is not recommended on a modded phone, anyway. Whatever came in the update will usually get posted in a stock rooted form in the Development forum, and/or incorporated into custom ROMs, often within days of the OTA rolling out. And OTA will not install on a modded phone (stock recovery needs to be present). OTAs also may plug existing s-off or other exploit; preventing you from doing them if you haven't already (but as mentioned, can't make the phone s-on again). Moral of the story, I strongly recommend against OTA on any modded phone.
Some of these terms/concepts are HTC specific, so may be a bit confusing for you. I would suggest reading up on these forums, if you aren't familiar with s-off, HTC's bootloader unlock process, etc.
Quick background:
Avid Android flasher/user for years, experience with most flagships and usually self-sufficient in my tinkering around with phones.
This phone seems to be the exception to the rule and I have a few questions that are not answered clearly in previous threads that I have read through.
If your objective is to point out any sort of ignorance on my part you can stop reading now, this is purely an educational post that can also hopefully help those who might also have these issues going forward.
Onto the questions.
In the process of unlocking bootloader, performing s-off, rooting and installing a recovery what is the easiest order to those who have done all of this?
Next, I am registered on HTCdev but I am stuck almost immediately when attempting to follow their step-by-step for unlocking my bootloader because it would appear that this years HTC model doesn't have HBOOT or Fastboot in Download mode? I have attached pictures of what I see on my phone when try their first step.
Lastly, it would appear that people are now trying to monetize on things such as S-Off actions so the consistent information and tutorials that once were available are now pretty scattered and hidden by those trying to shill Sunshine, I am not interested in that method whatsoever so please disregard this call for assistance if that is the solution you would be recommending.
Thanks for reading and if anyone is willing to lend some advice it would be greatly appreciated.
The process I went with was as follows:
Unlock bootloader, install custom recovery (then make a backup of system/data/boot), flash supersu, S-Off using Sunshine. While I don't agree with the costs associated with Sunshine, ultimately there has not been any other choices out there to reliably accomplish S-Off so I forked up the cash so I could have the convenience of S-Off. It worked just fine and I've had no issues since. If you'd rather not S-Off and save your money, that is fine. Just make sure you follow the advice from the other threads and take a stock back up before you flash ANYTHING in TWRP that you can restore to and take OTAs to update your firmware. Otherwise, you'll have to wipe your phone with an RUU to update the firmware without S-Off.
When I was using HTC Dev, I selected "other supported devices" or whatever that option is since the M9 was not listed when I unlocked my bootloader. If there is one for the M9 now and it isn't working for you, try selecting other. Also, ensure that you have the correct drivers installed. I would offer more advice on the actual process of unlocking the bootloader but I can't find the threads I was referencing throughout the process and I did all of this about two and a half months ago so I can't remember as much as I like. I hope this helps.
outofluck said:
The process I went with was as follows:
Unlock bootloader, install custom recovery (then make a backup of system/data/boot), flash supersu, S-Off using Sunshine. While I don't agree with the costs associated with Sunshine, ultimately there has not been any other choices out there to reliably accomplish S-Off so I forked up the cash so I could have the convenience of S-Off. It worked just fine and I've had no issues since. If you'd rather not S-Off and save your money, that is fine. Just make sure you follow the advice from the other threads and take a stock back up before you flash ANYTHING in TWRP that you can restore to and take OTAs to update your firmware. Otherwise, you'll have to wipe your phone with an RUU to update the firmware without S-Off.
When I was using HTC Dev, I selected "other supported devices" or whatever that option is since the M9 was not listed when I unlocked my bootloader. If there is one for the M9 now and it isn't working for you, try selecting other. Also, ensure that you have the correct drivers installed. I would offer more advice on the actual process of unlocking the bootloader but I can't find the threads I was referencing throughout the process and I did all of this about two and a half months ago so I can't remember as much as I like. I hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you so much for the insight.
Did you have the HBOOT and Fastboot issues from the Bootloader/Download mode screens on the phone itself?
williamvito said:
Thank you so much for the insight.
Did you have the HBOOT and Fastboot issues from the Bootloader/Download mode screens on the phone itself?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Download mode is our new "Fastboot" mode. Make sure before you go to HTCDev Unlock the bootloader that you access "Developer Settings" on the phone and check the "OEM Unlocking" option which will allow the bootloader to be unlocked without the "Killswitch" firmware blocking it. I'm not sure if HTC just hasn't updated instructions since the "official" start of the Killswitch legislation kicked in OR if they just won't.
Sunshine works amazingly and honestly, if you don't want to show gratitude in the form of a monetary payment (as opposed to a click of the thank you button or empty promise of a donation "on your next pay day") for the work, that's ok, just don't have s-off or find an exploit and bring to the masses for free.
Good luck!
mrrogers1 said:
Download mode is our new "Fastboot" mode. Make sure before you go to HTCDev Unlock the bootloader that you access "Developer Settings" on the phone and check the "OEM Unlocking" option which will allow the bootloader to be unlocked without the "Killswitch" firmware blocking it. I'm not sure if HTC just hasn't updated instructions since the "official" start of the Killswitch legislation kicked in OR if they just won't.
Sunshine works amazingly and honestly, if you don't want to show gratitude in the form of a monetary payment (as opposed to a click of the thank you button or empty promise of a donation "on your next pay day") for the work, that's ok, just don't have s-off or find an exploit and bring to the masses for free.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the clarification about download mode, it makes a lot more sense now especially since HTC hasn't updated their descriptions.
In regards to sunshine, that seemed like a half-handed way of calling me cheap since I didn't want to pay out a $25 fee and almost a threat if I were to post a free way to achieve S-Off if I found one? I wasn't offended but there seems to be a lack of transparency as to why this option exists and nothing else really, CF-Auto Root for Samsung devices was one of my favorite exploits that I definitely supported over the years but that's only after I had such success with it and not prior to needing such service.
I understand this brands devices have been layered much differently than others with not only rooting as an option but also the unlocking and s-off stuff involved, but the difference between last years support and this years is a pretty wide gap.
This is not a criticism on you at all, but as much as HTC needs the business these days it would also seem as if the remaining development community would also make it as hassle-free as possible to fully enjoy the true potential of the device, instead it just seems like some unnecessary capitalism to take advantage of those who want to appreciate a niche phone, just my opinion.
No, I wasn't calling you cheap at all (and meant no malice or to offend) but it is the only option because no one else has brought an alternative to market. I'd pay jcase and team anyway and again but the fact remains, no one else apparently has the skills (or is willing to) to do it.
At the end of the day, s-off isn't a requirement to root and do the custom rom dance here so no one is forced to s-off for any real reason.
Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk
All good, my core frustration was really with the conflict of terminology on the HTC side preventing me from starting even step one of the unlock process and the newly realized issue on my end that java was preventing my SDK platform tools from opening, once I get to the point of root I'll decide whether its worth it for myself to go ahead and perform S-Off via Sunshine or go down the rabbit hole to see if I can figure it out on my own. Thanks again for the advice and info.