Let me start off by saying donations are definitely a good thing. However, the nature of donations going on on XDA has got me thinking about a few things:
Do you think too many people want and/or expect donations for little things or things that don't really bring much to the table? Disregard the part at the bottom of their post that makes a lot of people seem righteous "Donations are not required, but are appreciated" something along those lines. Lines like that are what probably make people go "aww" or "wow, this person is really cool" But is it a subliminal tug at your heart strings on purpose? I have always been the kind of person that requires no donations because I don't consider myself bringing nothing really new to the table. More along the lines of bringing alternatives to things that are already on the table.
Most of us would do the things we're doing regardless, so why would you want money for it? I know a ton of people are going to rely on the "I never asked for money" stance, but the fact is, you kinda DO ask for money when donation links are plastered all over your topic.
Take for example someone who truly wanted to dive in and understand how modding Android files worked, how to make a ROM, how to theme a ROM. That person would do those things and probably push out something to the public even IF donations weren't accepted on XDA. In other words, true passion would yield community projects anyway, so why pretend like the donations are to "continue this project" when everyone knows you would continue it anyway? It's not like the people are doing these ROM projects just to get money, or are they? Now, I have seen more and more people wanting donations for slightly modifying things that aren't even open source software, like modifying proprietary HTC/Samsung/Motorola/etc files. Is this fair? Where does the line get drawn between giving donations for someone who truly is developing, and someone who is simply modifying?
I feel that teams like CyanogenMod, TeamWin, people who bring things to our phones that aren't otherwise available such as Beats, xLoud engine, etc. are the ones that truly deserve our money because they are the ones who raise the bar, bring exceptional software, software modifications, and new things to the table. So why then, does someone who downloaded a kitchen made by dsixda, smali/baksmali made by jesusfreke, various tools made by other people, and take information freely available on the internet written by other people expect, want, or even secretly want donations?
Chad Goodman is a perfect example of someone who truly does warrant having donations sent his way, but instead is satisfied with a mere thanks and appreciation from the community for his kernel development.
What are your thoughts on donating to people for something like a ROM that was for the most part completed by HTC? I wouldn't be surprised if sooner or later people started expecting donations for giving out information on upcoming phones. There are a ton of true developers that aren't "in your face" and are more behind the scenes that never really get recognized for their brilliance that should deserve our donations, thanks, and appreciation, but in the mix of so many 'developers' they seem to go forgotten.
I learn things for my own satisfaction and to make my phone better, and if I feel like anything I have done to my device can benefit the community that a lot of it I learned from, then I will most certainly share it without any financial compensation direct or indirect. I for one will never accept donations from the community I share things with that I would do for myself anyway, unless I feel that I truly am helping to raise the bar nor will I make it feel like their donation is what drives my continued support on a project, because let's face it- if a donation is what drives you to learn more and share with the public, you probably don't deserve the donation to begin with.
I'd just like to say that I think you're a class act, Freeza. I don't have a 3D and I'm not really sure how I came across this post, but I used your ROM exclusively on the TP2 from PPCGEEKs..Thank you for your contributions and never looking for anything more than a "thanks".
Not agree.
If you don't want - do not donate. If yes - go.
Nobody is not responsible for your unstable mental state, no one is forcing you to do donations.
I making the donations, made it for Kobra-rom and made it for MikRunny rom. Nobody is talking to me to do that, but i think the guys made work, great work, that making me to love my Android-phone. I think, that without custom roms Android is dead, and without the donates development is dead.
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
You're a good guy freeza
Swyped from mah 3vo!
Kemanorell said:
Not agree.
If you don't want - do not donate. If yes - go.
Nobody is not responsible for your unstable mental state, no one is forcing you to do donations.
I making the donations, made it for Kobra-rom and made it for MikRunny rom. Nobody is talking to me to do that, but i think the guys made work, great work, that making me to love my Android-phone. I think, that without custom roms Android is dead, and without the donates development is dead.
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
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Definitely not unstable in any way. This topic is only meant to spark discussion, not take away from developers. I really am looking for a reason that so many people put donation links up all over the place if they do it for the love of learning; with the exception of developers.
Kemanorell said:
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
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Like what is little dev to you, is it modding because that is not. Alpha rev unrevoke teamwin creators of tools is dev without them guys you could not even modify so........ unless you are a dev you don't need those tools so...... What is little
Sent from my powered Shooter E3D with Infection of AnthraX Jamz by wolf.
funny you posted this here, as I just a few sec ago had to comment on this subject in the HTC Desire S forum when responding to a reported thread on this subject...
Here is what I said: (note the main topic was about having donation links in peoples signatures and if non RD's warranted having it. btw)
My personal opinion on the subject though.....
It is more than okay for people to have donation links in their sig's that are not dev's. You dont have to be a Dev to warrant a donation. Many of the themer's and other people that contribute to the community are NOT developers but they provide value to the overall community and if someone wants to donate to them so be it...They might not get much use out of the button, but it is their right to have one if they want...
Now asking or demanding for donations up front will not be tolerated here in any way. There can be a fine line on this with RD's and others using the donation system for their beta's and such before a wide release but thats NOT what I'm talking about here at all. I'm talking about the flat out demanding of a donation before providing a service or doing anything else...If you see that then report the post and I or someone else will handle it.
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Now I also agree the ones that do it out of pure love, I appreciate more as they are the true driving force here, imho. Now you have to agree that these people are taking time out of their personal lives to do work for the community and should be allowed to be compensated when/if users decide to do so. The $$/donation should never be the driving force or reason behind what goes on here. imho
Hence Rule 8 of XDA, "...donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for."
Now as for those people putting links everywhere to donate and such to them....they typically just get put on the ignore list by me. I don't believe your donation link should be the biggest thing in your signature though if there...just poor taste imho and shows you are concerned more about the $ than the community here...
This is just like the professional athlete....some play just for themselves and some for the overall team reward in the end...Those that play just for themselves and the paycheck might be outstanding athletes and likely help a team win a bunch of games, but also might cause other frictions that the athlete playing for the team doesn't cause...both are professional athletes in the end so they are both talented but both have their pluses and minuses...imho
freeza said:
Definitely not unstable in any way. This topic is only meant to spark discussion, not take away from developers. I really am looking for a reason that so many people put donation links up all over the place if they do it for the love of learning; with the exception of developers.
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It is because we are at FORUM, some public-place, some impersonation of the network freedom, if you want...so anybody doing what he's want, because the site is allow that.
---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 PM ----------
.Elite_The_King. said:
Like what is little dev to you, is it modding because that is not. Alpha rev unrevoke teamwin creators of tools is dev without them guys you could not even modify so........ unless you are a dev you don't need those tools so...... What is little
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See, my opinion is simple: any time-donation (to make some theme, other little thing) coast some money. So it is some type of freedom - if you want - make some donation, if not - so not.
And if you don't trust any "little dev", so don't expect to see some really amazing things. Any stick always have two ends.
Ah, yea, i forgot to say, Freeza, i like your work (wallpapers). Thank you.
Freeza, i have to say that you worded that up perfectly but I do feel as though some of the contributions "you" have made here does warrant donations. Your firmware zips (copy/paste or not) alone have saved many here from bricks and a lot of hassle.
Haven said that, I do agree with what you're saying here, anyone with common knowledge can copy and paste code. I myself have built my own personal roms to my personal liking by asking questions, researching, and copy and paste....that certainly doesn't classify me as a dev, nor would that warrant a donation to me if I posted them (even though some have turned out pretty good if i do say so myself lol).
I have donated to 4 devs here, but like you said, it was to those who have brought something totally new to the table and were worthy. The worst are the ones who actually start begging for money on their threads....I find that despicable. We've had those on the 3d thread before....one was banned (for something else), but i digress. I'll just end by saying, you my friend, are worthy of donations.
sgt. slaughter said:
funny you posted this here, as I just a few sec ago had to comment on this subject in the HTC Desire S forum when responding to a reported thread on this subject...
Here is what I said: (note the main topic was about having donation links in peoples signatures and if non RD's warranted having it. btw)
Now I also agree the ones that do it out of pure love, I appreciate more as they are the true driving force here, imho. Now you have to agree that these people are taking time out of their personal lives to do work for the community and should be allowed to be compensated when/if users decide to do so. The $$/donation should never be the driving force or reason behind what goes on here. imho
Hence Rule 8 of XDA, "...donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for."
Now as for those people putting links everywhere to donate and such to them....they typically just get put on the ignore list by me. I don't believe your donation link should be the biggest thing in your signature though if there...just poor taste imho and shows you are concerned more about the $ than the community here...
This is just like the professional athlete....some play just for themselves and some for the overall team reward in the end...Those that play just for themselves and the paycheck might be outstanding athletes and likely help a team win a bunch of games, but also might cause other frictions that the athlete playing for the team doesn't cause...both are professional athletes in the end so they are both talented but both have their pluses and minuses...imho
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Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
freeza said:
Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
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yeah I agree. though I dont mind the donate button in signatures really long as its not some big huge button taking up half the sig...then its just poor taste imho...Also the whole "asking for donations" id put in the same category...You shouldn't have to ask for it nor remind people to donate to yourself...let others remind people to donate and spread the word that way....
freeza said:
Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
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I agree. I think that anything regarding donating shouldn't be allowed in someones signature or in their OP. I think the button is enough. I have donated and actually had to ask the dev what there paypal email was because I couldn't find any other way to send it to them. I also had another dev turn down a donation. I respect both of them a lot more for that.
While I don't consider my contribution as large as other peoples, I have a donate link. I realized that people actually appreciated the downgrade CD in my signature. That, more than anything, makes me happy. While I didn't develop the downgrade method (Unknownforce gets my full respect for this), I started putting in a (hopefully unobtrusive) link to my post on my policy on donations. I later changed that, and now I have the sidebar link.
Personally, my rationale for having a donate button was so that maybe I could buy a second hand phone or two to start developing for (likely ones that don't have the largest development community). I want to put out things while learning more about Android.
Now, I haven't received anything yet, But I'm okay with that. I love that I have been able to help (even in the slightest). That's really rewarding to me.
~co~
certain things warrant donations like hosting i try to get my user to donate to the host cause that is the most expensive part of deving and i think asking for donations for a goal is reasonable such as faster hosting, putting an app on the market, buying a mhl cable for testing etcc.
Nice discussion. I'll have to read all the comments in a bit and see what everyone says, but to me I agree with your OP freeza. I believe devs should definitely recieve donations if the raise the bar and bring something new that users didn't have before, I also believe that if you are enjoying and aprecciate a developers constant work then you can donate. I don't like developers and modders who have half their signature be a donation sign or constantly ask for them. Donations shouldn't even be asked for on here. I believe that the donation button above your avatar is enough to let users know "if you want to donate then here you go".
I have the little donation button at the top and although haven't received a donation yet, I don't personally care. It's my passion to learn more about android that keeps me going and making themes. Not the money. I don't believe I have actually done anything worth receiving money for.
Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk 2
I don't mind people asking for donations if they make customizations to ROMs and host them themselves. If it's basically reassembling others' works and throwing it up to a free host.. well, then you're just doing your hobby.
Off topic, but freeza, are you going to get an Evo LTE? You're a guy I want to see in those forums.
Sent from my Evo 3D using Tapatalk 2.0
yousefak said:
Off topic, but freeza, are you going to get an Evo LTE? You're a guy I want to see in those forums.
Sent from my Evo 3D using Tapatalk 2.0
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Of course I am! and thank you, I will definitely be a part of it.
I agree with u freeza, I think the Rd's/Dev Teams and/or users that actually create the tools and/or create their own code, ports, etc... should be the only ones that should be allowed to ask for donations (If they so choose to).
IMHO, they are the ones bringing the stuff to the table and provide us (The users) the tools to allow us to modify and cook our own custom roms, etc..
Now I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms. They certainly deserve all the thanks for all their hard time and effort spent on creating their roms.
There's really a fine line here, You have the users that create custom roms from the tools that dev's create and then you have the dev's that create those tools to begin with. Without the building blocks to create those roms, there wouldn't be anything for us to flash.
So i believe that donations should be more favored towards dev's and not users who create roms to their liking.
Like I said before, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms, I flash roms daily and thank the people who make this phone worth keeping. This is just for discussion purposes only.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
neonfreak20 said:
I agree with u freeza, I think the Rd's/Dev Teams and/or users that actually create the tools and/or create their own code, ports, etc... should be the only ones that should be allowed to ask for donations (If they so choose to).
IMHO, they are the ones bringing the stuff to the table and provide us (The users) the tools to allow us to modify and cook our own custom roms, etc..
Now I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms. They certainly deserve all the thanks for all their hard time and effort spent on creating their roms.
There's really a fine line here, You have the users that create custom roms from the tools that dev's create and then you have the dev's that create those tools to begin with. Without the building blocks to create those roms, there wouldn't be anything for us to flash.
So i believe that donations should be more favored towards dev's and not users who create roms to their liking.
Like I said before, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms, I flash roms daily and thank the people who make this phone worth keeping. This is just for discussion purposes only.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
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I understand where you are coming from and in a way I do agree, but with that said I have to add in that just because ROM developers are creating ROMS with other people's tools does not mean they aren't spending just as much time writing code as the people who made the necessary building blocks. For a large part of ROM development people can't just simply use another's tools. Especially for ports. It requires lots of testing and risk and hours of looking at notepad++ and eclipse (or other ide's) . So I do agree alot of people need to think about the outstanding tools developers have made, but people who make ROM's are just as easily developers as the ones who design the tools.
Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk 2