Related
Every once in awhile, some chatter will be thrown around about possible HTC fixes (http://www.phonenews.com/htc-says-update-still-coming-nothing-else-3369/) and/or gutted ROMs (http://htcclassaction.org/#update_20080403_2).
So... does anyone have *any* information about the HTC video acceleration problems?
i think at this point its realistic to say that if you want video acceleration, you need to buy another $500 device made by somebody else. I predict HTC puts this off until affected hardware is end-of-life. My rant is off topic now, but in that case, my next device wont be HTC.
Ummm, so how am I going to watch my pron..... lol
Foetus said:
So... does anyone have *any* information about the HTC video acceleration problems?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beyond the *problem* of not using the MS Media Player and substituting video playback with TCPMP (or another) set with the the video driver to GDI/RAW, what is the great issue? Even with direct draw drivers, I will still use TCPMP and its video playback is already exceptionally smooth as it is.
Screen redraw on the Today screen and other similar levels isn't out of line from what I've experienced on non-HTC WM/CE devices.
Sorry, but I'm still stumped on what is truly owed to us by HTC and -- more on topic for this forum -- the critical flaws that are inherent in the Titan.
Hopefully, they include support in the Raphael/Diamond. Who knows, maybe it can even be back-ported to our Moguls.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=387556
Supposedly, there will be a forthcoming update that will at least improve the video on our phones, but likely not drivers.
http://www.phonenews.com/htc-says-update-still-coming-nothing-else-3369/
Keystone said:
Beyond the *problem* of not using the MS Media Player and substituting video playback with TCPMP (or another) set with the the video driver to GDI/RAW, what is the great issue? Even with direct draw drivers, I will still use TCPMP and its video playback is already exceptionally smooth as it is.
Screen redraw on the Today screen and other similar levels isn't out of line from what I've experienced on non-HTC WM/CE devices.
Sorry, but I'm still stumped on what is truly owed to us by HTC and -- more on topic for this forum -- the critical flaws that are inherent in the Titan.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go into the "Programs" folder, and scroll up and down a bit... The same thing happens with any "redrawing" of the screen which makes certain programs just run crappy. My *main* complaint that *actually* gets in my way, though, is the delay in rotating the screen. I typically don't use the hardware keyboard for exactly this reason. I would rather use the stylus and the on-screen keyboard than wait for 5-10 seconds while I wait for the screen to redraw.
It's more to the point to say that it underperforms (again... scroll up and down on that program screen) in comparison to *older* devices. There are some Youtube examples out there that are easy to see. It's just not the performance that matches the pricetag.
Foetus said:
Go into the "Programs" folder, and scroll up and down a bit... The same thing happens with any "redrawing" of the screen which makes certain programs just run crappy. My *main* complaint that *actually* gets in my way, though, is the delay in rotating the screen. I typically don't use the hardware keyboard for exactly this reason. I would rather use the stylus and the on-screen keyboard than wait for 5-10 seconds while I wait for the screen to redraw.
It's more to the point to say that it underperforms (again... scroll up and down on that program screen) in comparison to *older* devices. There are some Youtube examples out there that are easy to see. It's just not the performance that matches the pricetag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know what you have done to your Mogul, but mine switches from landscape to portrait (or vice versa) faster than I could press a stopwatch button twice. The scrolling in File Explorer, dragging the stylus down the scroll bar, is instantaneous. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package. The only time I see terribly slow response is when the Mogul is connected to my PC and syncing...then it is glacial. But I do not usually use it when it is syncing so that has not been a problem.
bakntyme said:
I don't know what you have done to your Mogul, but mine switches from landscape to portrait (or vice versa) faster than I could press a stopwatch button twice. The scrolling in File Explorer, dragging the stylus down the scroll bar, is instantaneous. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package. The only time I see terribly slow response is when the Mogul is connected to my PC and syncing...then it is glacial. But I do not usually use it when it is syncing so that has not been a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate to repeat myself, but go click "Start" and then "Programs"... scroll up AND down as fast as you can... it is anything but smooth scrolling... as far as switching from landscape to portrait faster than you can press a stopwatch button twice, I can only assume you are trying to use your feet. I have used the stock ROM, the kitchen, and DCDs custom ROM... it's slow. I count roughly 2-3 seconds. Granted, it may not seem like a "long" time in the grand scheme of things... for a phone, it's an eternity, and ultimately... it's not as fast as phones that are 3 years old. I'm ecstatic for you that you are happy with the performance of your phone. Why would you even bother to *read* this message thread if that's the case?
Additionally... in File Explorer... don't try scrolling down slowly... try up *and* down quickly. If you can *see* the screen refresh, then it's too damned slow. It's supposed to SCROLL... not BLINK.
bakntyme said:
I don't know what you have done to your Mogul, but mine switches from landscape to portrait (or vice versa) faster than I could press a stopwatch button twice. The scrolling in File Explorer, dragging the stylus down the scroll bar, is instantaneous. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package. The only time I see terribly slow response is when the Mogul is connected to my PC and syncing...then it is glacial. But I do not usually use it when it is syncing so that has not been a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Backntyme,
I agree about the keyboard thing. When I switch to landscape and back it normally takes about 1-2 seconds. But sometimes much longer and it is quite annoying.
But for the scrolling thing, Foetus was talking about start>programs. You go there and scroll the page up icons up and down quickly. You will see the delayed screen refresh. Another one is when you use iGuidance or TomTom. The screen refresh is terrible and you get really jerky animation of turns etc. I haven't noticed especially bad scrolling in file explorer because the rendering is simple. But rendering of graphics is not great. But liveable.
But what the thread is upset about is not whether its liveable or not. It's about whether an expensive piece of equipment should be worse in some respects than its predecessor. And whether we are getting value for money. The device's hardware is capable of better performance, but HTC have chosen to supply a substandard set of software to go with it.
Foetus, sorry for answering for you. I thought you were offline. But you beat me to the punch anyway..
This is way off topic, but you know what really pisses me off about the titan performance? The fact that you have to turn sounds off the dialpad or it can't even keep up with your dialing of a number. My ten year old nokia (that i still have) sh*ts all over the titan for speed. Granted it cant do everything that the titan can do, but at least it does what it was advertised to do - and do it properly.
Foetus said:
I hate to repeat myself, but go click "Start" and then "Programs"... scroll up AND down as fast as you can... it is anything but smooth scrolling... as far as switching from landscape to portrait faster than you can press a stopwatch button twice, I can only assume you are trying to use your feet. I have used the stock ROM, the kitchen, and DCDs custom ROM... it's slow. I count roughly 2-3 seconds. Granted, it may not seem like a "long" time in the grand scheme of things... for a phone, it's an eternity, and ultimately... it's not as fast as phones that are 3 years old. I'm ecstatic for you that you are happy with the performance of your phone. Why would you even bother to *read* this message thread if that's the case?
Additionally... in File Explorer... don't try scrolling down slowly... try up *and* down quickly. If you can *see* the screen refresh, then it's too damned slow. It's supposed to SCROLL... not BLINK.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, I didn't realize that we were supposed to PM you for permission to *read* threads on this forum and that you would only permit users who agree with you to read those threads. Nor does the thread title "Video acceleration news?" imply that it is going to be really just another gripe thread. Second, when you said "Go into the "Programs" folder, and scroll up and down a bit" that is not the same thing as "I hate to repeat myself, but go click "Start" and then "Programs"; however, in that screen, either scrolling or paging up and down, my Mogul also draws the icons almost instantaneously. That means in a fraction of a second. The switch between portrait and landscape is also accomplished in a fraction of a second. Scrolling in File Explorer works as it should with no blinking.
If I were in your position, instead of assuming that someone who posts different experiences than yours must be a fool who cannot tell how much time elapses during screen redraws and then telling them that they should not be reading "your" thread, I would question why my own device could not do what other similar devices can do.
I am not saying that the device is perfect; for example, sometimes when activating the Task Manager icon at the top right of the Today screen, it takes a second or two to show the running programs. But I do not believe that is a screen response problem.
maccaberry: I also use iGuidance 3.0.1, and the screen response works properly either with an external Bluetooth GPS receiver, or with the internal GPS receiver and the intermediate port workarounds. That workaround requirement is more a limitation of iGuidance than of the Mogul.
edit: maccaberry, you say that HTC has supplied substandard software. But at least some of your experiences are with a bootloader, ROM, and radio that were either not supplied by HTC for your device, or not supplied for use on your carrier, or not supplied to be used together, or have been modified from the software as it was supplied by HTC. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package with all of the customizations as supplied by HTC. Maybe that has some effect?
@bakntyme
Sorry im going to have to agree with everyone else over you... (not just this thread mind you but a simple search and you should see what i mean) but please feel free to either use MyMobiler and record a video of your superb performance.... honistly... or find some other app to record... even using the most slimmed down ROM to the Stock i still get what he is describing.... and worse... i have changed things to make the transition faster like 128K for the Glyphcahe system ram all up to 90% Mem usage WITH NOTHING running and no Today crap and it still takes 1-2 seconds compared to 3-5 seconds with no optimizations.... really a PITA
its also tiring reading a book Landscape then having the thing switch to Portrat then having to go all the way back to settings and flip the screen again before i can continue reading...
EDIT1: I recently dug up my Sony CLIE UX50 and even though its a PALM platform with a low 124MHZ PROC (me thinks it was) STILL kicks the Mogul/ANY OTHER HTC's video performance.. and even game performance... anything performance... except compression... (DUH Mogul/Most other HTC's have bigger PROC)
New Tilt 2.0 alpha rom speeds up graphics? (!)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=388728&page=4
Benchmarks posted here to illustrate the point. Some people think this is part of the promised optimizations from the manufacturer.
Other people are looking at drivers located in the new Imate 9502 that has a msm7200 chipset as well:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745&page=100
Maybe there will be some hardware acceleration in the new raphael and diamond that could be borrowed.
Hopefully these multiple approaches will synergistically gel to greatly increase performance for my mogul
Kane3162 said:
@bakntyme
Sorry im going to have to agree with everyone else over you... (not just this thread mind you but a simple search and you should see what i mean) but please feel free to either use MyMobiler and record a video of your superb performance.... honistly... or find some other app to record... even using the most slimmed down ROM to the Stock i still get what he is describing.... and worse... i have changed things to make the transition faster like 128K for the Glyphcahe system ram all up to 90% Mem usage WITH NOTHING running and no Today crap and it still takes 1-2 seconds compared to 3-5 seconds with no optimizations.... really a PITA
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It really does not matter with whom you agree...you could actually open your mind and believe all of us; just because other Titans exhibit poor performance in this area does not mean that my Titan must also. Or does your need to believe that it is a systemic problem that affects all Titans make you so sure that I am lying that only a video will convince you that i am telling the truth?
bakntyme said:
It really does not matter with whom you agree...you could actually open your mind and believe all of us; just because other Titans exhibit poor performance in this area does not mean that my Titan must also. Or does your need to believe that it is a systemic problem that affects all Titans make you so sure that I am lying that only a video will convince you that i am telling the truth?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no i am merely saying that you seem to have an uncanny tone in both your first post and your follow up post that begs the question why reply in a thread asking of others PROBLEMS if you have none? if you have none congratz.. but this thread is not about who doesn't have but rather who has AND if any news has been heard about fixing it... as any search you will do on "HTC Video Performance"... your "non-existant" problem is one in... well... almost the entire production of any newer (at least) HTC Device!
bakntyme said:
I don't know what you have done to your Mogul, but mine switches from landscape to portrait (or vice versa) faster than I could press a stopwatch button twice. The scrolling in File Explorer, dragging the stylus down the scroll bar, is instantaneous. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package. The only time I see terribly slow response is when the Mogul is connected to my PC and syncing...then it is glacial. But I do not usually use it when it is syncing so that has not been a problem."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So again, as you don't seem to have a problem, CONGRATZ however I am a firm believer of a "post when important or relevant" policy and well.. your post is HIGHLY IRRELEVANT as this thread (as i said above) is about the problem as well as possible news of its being resolved...
Sorry thats just the way i feel...
Now as for the RELEVENT part of this post... I read a notice on PhoneNews and while they say they are working on some fixes.. its nearly 99.99% that their will be no advancements for HWL control of the GFX part of the phone due to "fees and software development time" HOWEVER i have high hope that the Raphael will have said drivers and since it seems not TOO much is different hopefully someone will be able to REVENG them for our oh so broken HTC devices...
Foetus said:
I hate to repeat myself, but go click "Start" and then "Programs"... scroll up AND down as fast as you can... it is anything but smooth scrolling... as far as switching from landscape to portrait faster than you can press a stopwatch button twice, I can only assume you are trying to use your feet. I have used the stock ROM, the kitchen, and DCDs custom ROM... it's slow. I count roughly 2-3 seconds. Granted, it may not seem like a "long" time in the grand scheme of things... for a phone, it's an eternity, and ultimately... it's not as fast as phones that are 3 years old. I'm ecstatic for you that you are happy with the performance of your phone. Why would you even bother to *read* this message thread if that's the case?
Additionally... in File Explorer... don't try scrolling down slowly... try up *and* down quickly. If you can *see* the screen refresh, then it's too damned slow. It's supposed to SCROLL... not BLINK.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Holy crap. LMAO
Kane3162 said:
no i am merely saying that you seem to have an uncanny tone in both your first post and your follow up post that begs the question why reply in a thread asking of others PROBLEMS if you have none? if you have none congratz.. but this thread is not about who doesn't have but rather who has AND if any news has been heard about fixing it... as any search you will do on "HTC Video Performance"... your "non-existant" problem is one in... well... almost the entire production of any newer (at least) HTC Device!
...
So again, as you don't seem to have a problem, CONGRATZ however I am a firm believer of a "post when important or relevant" policy and well.. your post is HIGHLY IRRELEVANT as this thread (as i said above) is about the problem as well as possible news of its being resolved...
Sorry thats just the way i feel...
Now as for the RELEVENT part of this post... I read a notice on PhoneNews and while they say they are working on some fixes.. its nearly 99.99% that their will be no advancements for HWL control of the GFX part of the phone due to "fees and software development time" HOWEVER i have high hope that the Raphael will have said drivers and since it seems not TOO much is different hopefully someone will be able to REVENG them for our oh so broken HTC devices...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought it was relevant to point out that since my Mogul does not exhibit the delays, the problems you are experiencing may not be caused by what you think is causing them. And if you read this thread, you will discover a post by another user who doesn't see the problem. The original post posed the question, "So... does anyone have *any* information about the HTC video acceleration problems?" A post indicating that the problems are not experienced by all users is responsive to that question. But since you all insist that your problems are systemic to the device, only new drivers will fix it, and any users not experiencing the problems should not be allowed to discuss it, I will let you keep that belief.
bakntyme said:
I thought it was relevant to point out that since my Mogul does not exhibit the delays, the problems you are experiencing may not be caused by what you think is causing them. And if you read this thread, you will discover a post by another user who doesn't see the problem. The original post posed the question, "So... does anyone have *any* information about the HTC video acceleration problems?" A post indicating that the problems are not experienced by all users is responsive to that question. But since you all insist that your problems are systemic to the device, only new drivers will fix it, and any users not experiencing the problems should not be allowed to discuss it, I will let you keep that belief.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The fact of the matter is, hardware acceleration within the video drivers would considerably speed up all of the devices regardless of if you do or do not see a problem with your own device.
bakntyme said:
First, I didn't realize that we were supposed to PM you for permission to *read* threads on this forum and that you would only permit users who agree with you to read those threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can be polite exactly once per thread per idiot. Typically, it's a misunderstanding that is cleared up with a more in-depth explanation. As for permission to read the thread... re-read my question, except this time, pretend you're not a flame-baiting schmuck that didn't get hugged by his mother enough as a child. I asked you a question... WHY would you read a thread about a problem you don't have, nor have a solution for? I'm hoping you can play the piano brialliantly, thus adding the term "savant" to your title.
bakntyme said:
Nor does the thread title "Video acceleration news?" imply that it is going to be really just another gripe thread. Second, when you said "Go into the "Programs" folder, and scroll up and down a bit" that is not the same thing as "I hate to repeat myself, but go click "Start" and then "Programs";
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually... the question mark implies that I am asking a *question*. While it doesn't explicitly ask the question "Does anyone have some video acceleration news?", it does in fact do more than subtly *hint*. In fact... one would go as far as to say that it is IMPLIED. Your illilteracy is not my problem (Oh... and illiteracy is the inability to read... I am not saying your parents weren't married). Furthermore, rephrasing my example actually DOES count as repeating myself... it doesn't have to be exact; that's what the word "verbatim" would be used for. Isn't English FUN!??!
bakntyme said:
second. The switch between portrait and landscape is also accomplished in a fraction of a second. Scrolling in File Explorer works as it should with no blinking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Before (as I said), I was polite about this. YOU ARE A LIAR. I believe that your pants may be ablaze. I have heard it suggested to hang pants in such a condition on a telephone wire. HTC has stated that they know about the issue and their solution is to buy a new phone when they come out with video acceleration. Either you are OK with the delay (which is what I assumed originally), have *zero* concept of time, or option C: you are a dirty, filthy, weird liar. I'm betting it's option C, I'm betting you look for fights behind the anonymity of the internet constantly, and I bet you die alone and unloved.
bakntyme said:
If I were in your position, instead of assuming that someone who posts different experiences than yours must be a fool who cannot tell how much time elapses during screen redraws and then telling them that they should not be reading "your" thread, I would question why my own device could not do what other similar devices can do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I were in *your* position, I wouldn't assume that even though HTC has admitted the problem, and just about everyone complains about this problem, your ARGUMENT about the device would advance this thread in any kind of positive way whatsoever. Again... you will die alone. I am clairvoyant.
bakntyme said:
maccaberry: I also use iGuidance 3.0.1, and the screen response works properly either with an external Bluetooth GPS receiver, or with the internal GPS receiver and the intermediate port workarounds. That workaround requirement is more a limitation of iGuidance than of the Mogul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...all alone.
bakntyme said:
edit: maccaberry, you say that HTC has supplied substandard software. But at least some of your experiences are with a bootloader, ROM, and radio that were either not supplied by HTC for your device, or not supplied for use on your carrier, or not supplied to be used together, or have been modified from the software as it was supplied by HTC. I am running the stock Sprint 3.35 package with all of the customizations as supplied by HTC. Maybe that has some effect?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On this, I agree a little bit... the latest ROMs fixed the delay a little bit, if I recall. Certainly, he lists an older DCD rom in his sig.
Oh... PS: All alone, by yourself, with no one to cry at your funeral.
bakntyme said:
It really does not matter with whom you agree...you could actually open your mind and believe all of us; just because other Titans exhibit poor performance in this area does not mean that my Titan must also. Or does your need to believe that it is a systemic problem that affects all Titans make you so sure that I am lying that only a video will convince you that i am telling the truth?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, having the exact same hardware and the exact same hardware *does* mean that "just because other Titans exhibit poor performance in this area", yours does as well. Unless somehow, you have a defect in your equipment that somehow makes your phone FASTER. It's not an issue of having an open mind... it's an issue about having the same equipment. Again, though, if you have no issues with the performance of the phone, that's excellent. I honestly *am* happy that you are satisfied with your purchase... but you can't tell other people that their dissatisfaction with a product is baseless. Everyone has their own opinion... this thread, however, wasn't created for posting your *opinion*. I was looking for updates. HTC has said they're working on something (but have stated it's not acceleration, but more along the lines of "tweaks" and optimization)...
Hi, I made a video of the problem here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRXcBcpSD1w
It's minor, but I'd still like it fixed.
I heard about this as well... does look annoying. What application did you use to test that?
Timmmmmm said:
Hi, I made a video of the problem here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRXcBcpSD1w
It's minor, but I'd still like it fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think "Yet Another Multitouch Tester" or something. There are loads of them in the market.
Yea I was just curious. I use multitouch visible test which shows coordinates as well and I tried to replicate this on my Nexus S... doesn't have that threshold though, it's similar to the Nexus One. Wonder why samsung would add that...
BTW could you tell me how many simultaneous touch inputs the screen can register? The original SGS and Nexus S can register 5 according to multitouch visible test. Nexus One as you know can do 2 but when you cross each axis they flip.
Timmmmmm said:
I think "Yet Another Multitouch Tester" or something. There are loads of them in the market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got up to 10 and then ran out of fingers...
There's no axis flipping problem.
Ok so the physical touchscreen technology is very good... it's just samsung has written in this threshold movement delay, that's a bummer lol.
Timmmmmm said:
I got up to 10 and then ran out of fingers...
There's no axis flipping problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the touchscreen is so extremely sensitive they decided to fool-proof the phone.
without this "sticking" there would be no way for an average person with shaky fingers to register a TAP not a micro-SWIPE.
kreoXDA said:
I think the touchscreen is so extremely sensitive they decided to fool-proof the phone.
without this "sticking" there would be no way for an average person with shaky fingers to register a TAP not a micro-SWIPE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt it. It's virtually impossible to perfectly tap on other phones and it's not a problem. I'm pretty sure 'micro-swipes' are detected by the software layer as taps.
Well does it affect the phone usage otherwise?
I just checked on 3Gs (havent got the S2 yet, damn these late release dates ) and sure enough it has the exact same delay and skip when I slowly try to scroll say web pages. Its always been good enough for me though.
I would be more interested in an accuracy test to see if there are any major issues with the hardware itself. Last test I saw showed everyone but the iPhone digitizer having abysmal performance, I remember the Droid loosing the finger signal all the time.
Any links to the touchscreen performance test you mention?
As for the "deadzone" for touch input, CyanogenMod7 for the SGS has this aswell. Furthermore, it also has a "feature" where if you move your finger slower than a certain speed across the screen, homescreens/browser pages etc will just ignore the touch input. So if you want to minimally correct the framing of a webpage, if maybe the text is just cut off on the side, you need to quickly swipe a very short swipe to get any movement on the screen. Trying to slowly change framing is not possible.
Hardware is fine though, multitouch tests has no filtering like deadzones or speed thresholds.
I have this problem to, Its definitely software I think.
I wonder if its easy to mod to get rid of this deadzone/minimum threshold for scrolling. Anyone able to take a look. Its quite annoying in some things and my old android phone didnt do this.
Angry birds doesn't bypass the problem. It's quite hard to see underneath your finger but the problem is definitely there in "Angry Birds Rio".
Scrolling in some views don't show the problem so badly, presumably because they use the relative movement of each move event, rather than the absolute distance from the down event.
Yeah problem is still there in angry birds my mistake.
Its quite annoying in nova hd when you want to move the crosshair a tiny amount. You can't because of this problem
Anyone know what file in the source could be edited to maybe stop this ?
sorrowuk said:
Yeah problem is still there in angry birds my mistake.
Its quite annoying in nova hd when you want to move the crosshair a tiny amount. You can't because of this problem
Anyone know what file in the source could be edited to maybe stop this ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my hunch is this source is not available, and somewhere in samsung's closed framework or similar.
i know on cyanogen rom, you can go look at the source code for ADW launcher, and you can locate the touch input source code. and you can find all the algorithms like dX, dY, that are used to register swipes, motion, scrolls, etc. its all pretty complicated and impressive code actually.
i'm sure samsung has equivalent code somewhere.
So if we got rid of touchwiz and used ADW launcher would the problem still be there?
sorrowuk said:
So if we got rid of touchwiz and used ADW launcher would the problem still be there?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good question. I'm curious.
Still same problem with adw launcher
This looks more like a kernel thing to me in the touchscreen driver...
Are we able to edit/mod/patch the touchscreen driver in the kernel or is this only something samsung can do ?
sorrowuk said:
Are we able to edit/mod/patch the touchscreen driver in the kernel or is this only something samsung can do ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We have the sources. I'm checking out the frameworks first though in case it's obvious.
Wondering if the setting for Automatic screen brightness is bad for you all? What im talking about is that my screen brightness is not changing accordingly to light/dark environment, it's basically always on medium. Can my phone be broken or is this normal?
Also experience screen drop outs where it's stop responding to touch input, it sits like that for short period of time and will start responding again. It seems not like a frequent problem but happens now and again since I bought it last week.
Last but not least, im experiencing some forms....in lack of words, "processor" straining if I have all 20 Xbox games installed and a lot of apps and music. Seems that the less memory the more chopy everything become. Even with a lot removed from storage and having, like 7GB free its a bit choppy, but the problem will increase expanding to less increased memory. Just open Games and looking at the avatar you can see lagg in his movments. I feely like with a clean phone I never saw that.
Now worth noting is I am VERY picky when it comes to lagg/choppiness/Screen flickerings. This phone is brand new and I come from a Omnia 7. While surfing the Webb is a incredible experience, its so smooth, I feel that start menu scrolling, avatar movements etc is choppy and almost, as bad? as a first gen device. Game performance seems to be better on the Titan compared to my old Omnia 7. But on a lot of areas it seems my Omnia 7 is on par with the Titan. This is a new gen device, shouldn't I experience a lot of difference.
Now, anybody got some thoughts about this? Any feedback/help is appreciated.
Best regards
Me
The amount of used/free storage has very little to do with the performance of the phone. More than likely, its simply the phone needing to download and load data that is causing some of the stuttering you are seeing, which is the most common culprit of performance hiccups. The storage memory is not the same thing as the memory used to run the phone/apps/games. A common misconception.
Slow data connections/downloads in combination with the inability for the phone to load all your information instantly is probably the lag you are seeing (or even, the phone IS trying to load all your data at once). It is more apparent in 3rd party apps, but its the same as any device trying to load data.
If it really is to the point where its unbearable, it may very well be that your device is defective. I don't have any major issues with freezing/stuttering/lag on any of my Windows Phone devices. Its a bit more noticeable on my 1st gen devices, but its largely eliminated on my 2nd gen devices. A little bit of stuttering here and there is completely normal for any device though.
Thnx for the input. I can't tell what's the reason behind it, but my Omnua was the same. To many Tiles and the start screen will get choppy etc.
Nobody have any trouble with the screen brightness and phone freezing for a short period? Many small things I never noticed on my Omnia 7, and I thought that phone wasn't all there. If all small problems is here in scared for the survival of WP if phones get worse. If there to. Ompete with Apple plz give solid performance.... I feel disappointed :'(
I've a ton of live tiles and no start screen lag. Maybe your device is defective?
or maybe my standards are 2 high. It can't be a coincidence that my Omnia 7, Lumia 800 and now my Titan is doing the same thing...but that is a WP7 issue. Currently is automatic screen brightness my worst concerns, and if dark room or sunlight don't really change on your phones, then I know its a standard Titan issue, if not, I need to send it back for repairs. And maybe the screen freezing I have is connected to the sensor is broken. I have no clue so .....if you cover your phones top, or put a strong light on it, does your brightness change?
screen freezing should probably be more accurately be called screen drop out, like its disconnected some how. Haven't happend for 1-2 days now.
I remember my old HD2 was reported with broken screens as a flaw and people had to send in a lot of there devices before it was fixed. Kind of scared its typical bad HTC quality playing its thing?
Autobrightness - known bug
Screen stutter - tried SRS-off?
Start screen lag - ghosting
Screen drop - lock-unlock screen, known bug for some handsets.
It's all in the sticky of FAQs.
I can fill my screen with tons of tiles too and get absolutely no lag.
I think really the best way for any of us to tell you whether or not the type of lag you are experiencing is normal would be to take video. Use the phone as you normally would, take some video of you doing it, and clearly we should be able to see any weird lag issues.
But again, a little bit of lag, on any device, is totally normal. It may be that you are just too picky. I imagine that using Android would totally kill you since the lag there gets out of hand at times.
Problem is, while you may think its Windows Phone in general because it has happened to the last 3 of your devices, the rest of us here experience little to no lag with our devices, which would rule out that it is just a Windows Phone problem. It may be the way you set your phone up that it causing some kind of lag, totally possible, since everyone sets up their device in different ways. And more than likely, you have set your phone up a certain way every time you move to a new device, because that's just how you set it up.
Thanx for all the great input and maybe im just picky.
Great FAQ thread, sorry for not seeing it, but I would give you the tip to rename it to somthing more...boring? :-D. All I saw was FAQ and noob and then my interest was gone, sorry for that, usually see em and they always rock so thnx for a nice post. As a naming tip. FAQ: HTC TITAN: current Information/issues/solutions.
Maybe just me but in sorry i missed your FAQ. Keep upp the work and nice to know its basically HTC screwing up again, when will they learn. (Miss my Omnia 7)
also, feel free to delete this thread if you consider name change ...lol, just trying to be kind and frank.
Nakazul said:
Thanx for all the great input and maybe im just picky.
Great FAQ thread, sorry for not seeing it, but I would give you the tip to rename it to somthing more...boring? :-D. All I saw was FAQ and noob and then my interest was gone, sorry for that, usually see em and they always rock so thnx for a nice post. As a naming tip. FAQ: HTC TITAN: current Information/issues/solutions.
Maybe just me but in sorry i missed your FAQ. Keep upp the work and nice to know its basically HTC screwing up again, when will they learn. (Miss my Omnia 7)
also, feel free to delete this thread if you consider name change ...lol, just trying to be kind and frank.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem mate! I've changed it
I think HTC din't just mess up in general. It was the first batch (Oct/Nov purchases) that had the most issues and plenty with ATT. In the UK if you got something from first batch off CarPhone Warehouse - you would see those freezes and lags. However, I swapped mine just before December and no issues after that. The ghosting is common with ALL HTCs. Android, Windows - doesn't matter. It's their S-LCD/LCD screens.
hehe okay. Just bought mine of Expansys and they were waiting to get em in to stock so was hoping to skip first wave. Any ways to see which rendition I have? Hmm I will go to the FAQ after your reply so delite this thread in awhile then, its no good when there is a FAQ, especially as good as the one there is.
So I got my DNA on Sunday. So far, I'm pretty happy with it except for one issue. My multitouch seems messed up. If I'm trying to play a game that requires both thumbs, basically the two of them tapping the screen interfere with one another. For example, if I'm playing something like shadowgun, or GTA III, or max payne, or even the preinstalled diablo clone, if I'm moving a character and try to press an attack button at the same time(or in the case of GTA trying to actually steer while driving) the character movement "stick" resets to neutral. and sometimes the reverse will happen. Trying to move will cause the attack button to stop registering. The issue has been "confirmed" by me with multitouch visible test found in the play store. In the test, moving my thumbs around and making them cross axis screws up the touch registering. could anyone confirm or deny that this is happening on their device? Games are basically unplayable. I went into a VZW store today(the only one in my are with the phone in stock) and tried their demo unit and it exhibited the same problem. I was then promptly told by the sales rep that the one device they had was being held for a paid order. Nevermind the fact that I was told over the phone minutes before that the one phone was available and that they DO NOT hold devices for customers. A call to corporate may be in order... Anyway, any thoughts on the multitouch "issue" would be greatly appreciated.
Have you tried turning off HTC gestures in Settings -> Display & Gestures? I think the 3 finger swipe for HTC Media Link messes with multi touch
Generally speaking any issues with multitouch are software related. The sensors should be fine its a matter of callibration based on the software. Like the previous poster said it may be due to sense's gesture features. New kernels when they are released will likely fix this but I have never experiencedit. Gonna have to try and reproduce this today.
I've also noticed plenty of issues with multi touch. I've noticed while browsing, if I'm holding the phone with two hands and any portion of my one hand is touching the screen and I'm trying to scroll it won't respond till I remove that skin that is making contact.
n0code said:
I've also noticed plenty of issues with multi touch. I've noticed while browsing, if I'm holding the phone with two hands and any portion of my one hand is touching the screen and I'm trying to scroll it won't respond till I remove that skin that is making contact.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure every phone is like that.
I believe it is the game/app software related. I don't think a lot of them are set up to recognize the larger 5.0"+ screens running resolutions over 720p. We are kinda treading new territory here. I have heard of a few games that don't display correctly on our phones so I don't doubt controls/multi-touch could need some tweaking as well.
I may be wrong but that is my opinion.
Swifty31703 said:
I believe it is the game/app software related. I don't think a lot of them are set up to recognize the larger 5.0"+ screens running resolutions over 720p. We are kinda treading new territory here. I have heard of a few games that don't display correctly on our phones so I don't doubt controls/multi-touch could need some tweaking as well.
I may be wrong but that is my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More than a few games simply do not work. Its annoying and I may return the DNA for that reason.
The early bird catches catches the worm has never been more true.
adrynalyne said:
More than a few games simply do not work. Its annoying and I may return the DNA for that reason.
The early bird catches catches the worm has never been more true.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you becoming part of the "Now" generation that I saw you complain about in another thread?
Games will begin working once app developers start updating for 1080p screens.
Swifty31703 said:
Are you becoming part of the "Now" generation that I saw you complain about in another thread?
Games will begin working once app developers start updating for 1080p screens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, LOL.
But I have seen these things before, where developers catch up 6 months later. A lot of the games I want to play are Gameloft or EA, and they both are terrible at updating. Horn hasn't been updated since September.
In that case, I can come back in 6 months with a newer device and will be content.
I am definitely patient, and can live with the Gnex a bit longer if I decide to go that route.
Thanks for the replies. I did try turning off HTC gestures last night with no success. I'll have to figure out a way to post a video of it. Basically, in the multitouch test app, If i hold the phone in landscape, as if I'm playing a game, then place both thumbs in the lower corners, it registers fine. However, if I slowly move my left thumb up and down then repeatedly tap the right corner(an action commonly performed in 3D action games) it trips it up and starts reversing the thumb inputs and occasionally introducing a third input even though I only have two fingers on screen. I can't believe that it's just an issue with software, or I'd assume reviews would have pointed to it. It makes games basically unplayable. And I've seen video online of people playing those types of games on the phone without the issue. A video would help. I'll try to figure something out.
Its been like that for some time the phones capability is more than the multi tasking allows I got 7 apps at once any load after that it won't show in recent. Though its slightly better with the app refresh upon switch its much better than my previous HTC the EVO LTE . Still when we got aosp based roms it was much better but with no limit or more on that device it slowed a lot but two gigs in this is great.
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using xda premium
So I've "solved" the issue. I actually swapped it out for another phone and then it worked fine and I was happy. Then I re installed holo locker from the play store and started having the same issue. So holo locker WILL break the multi touch capabilities of the DNA. I just e-mailed the dev and hopefully get a response. So again, for anyone using the phone, DO NOT INSTALL HOLO LOCKER. At least not until it's updated.
Let me start this by saying I LOVE the Nexus 10. It's the most comfortable tablet I've used and the screen is just phenomenal, aside from that, the random reboots are really dragging down the experience. I'm sure there still have to be people having these issues, and what are you doing to combat/keep the tablet from rebooting? I've factory reset my device probably 5 times since my purchase in January, and have installed a few ROMs to try and stop them to no avail. I'm currently running CM10.1 with KTManta and are still having crashes daily, if not every 3-4 hours of heavy use. Location services are disabled, and Chrome is nowhere to be found. How many here are still having these issues? I'm just trying to grab a realistic number here for the community. Would those who are having freezes and reboots like to contribute to a global list where we could possibly list all of the applications that we use to see if there is a common ground amongst us? I just hate that this awesome tablet is being placed on the back burner for now with what would appear like no indication of upcoming fixes. I'm sure IO will bring us a more stable version of Android (4.2.2 is pretty awful) but that's still quite a bit away.
Sent from my GT-N7100
There are two awesome threads that this is being discussed on, one is http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1998496 the other is a Google thread referenced in that same discussion.
I may have had a comepletely different problem, but a RMA made my N10 go from bad to good experience
Been running 4.2.2 official AOKP with default kernel for the last couple weeks and haven't had 1 freeze/reboot. Battery great also with around 7-8 hours of screen time.
4.2.2 was a huge improvement
Sent from my SGH-I747M
I am currently on a CM10 base and KTManta kernel and I have no reboots or other problems at all. I had been on AOKP PUB for quite a while before this and it was fine too, and before that I was on a really old build of CM10 (4.2.1) for a long time with only a couple issues due to memory leaks that caused a reboot once every few days.
bigmatty said:
There are two awesome threads that this is being discussed on, one is http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1998496 the other is a Google thread referenced in that same discussion.
I may have had a comely different problem, but a RMA made my N10 go from bad to good experience
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your second device isn't rebooting?
Edit: To OP. I gave up combatting it. Nothing seems to work. It could be an app but when it reboots sometimes every few days that would be hard to troubleshoot. I can swap an app list with you if you want although it may be more beneficial to see those the apps of those with no issues so you could have a starting point?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
I own this device for ~4 weeks now and I haven't had a single reboot, freeze or anything.
Of course I understand that not everybody is this lucky, so I feel sad for you guys but it seems to be more hardware reliant than anything with newer devices not experiencing many problems.
I experienced several reboots a day when I first received my Nexus 10. It was frustrating to use at best. Since the 4.2.2 (I'm running stock with root) upgrade and switching to Chrome beta I no longer have any reboot problems with the same device. I am now able to turn on location awareness without lockups or reboots as well. It's a complete 180.
My wife just bought her own Nexus 10 and hers has never locked up or rebooted spontaneously. Hers is stock, unrooted, and she uses non-beta Chrome.
rxnelson said:
Your second device isn't rebooting?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not.
I mentioned it in another thread, but I prefer to charge a units battery 100% full, then run the unit unitl it turns its self off from dead battery. The first two "cycles" on my RMA unit I did that, no problems during either cycle, each cycle was three days long. So then I started to charge it when the battery said 1%, and now I'm up to 302 hours of uptime. There have been no shell reboots during this 302 hours, as I've always been sure to leave an app in "recently used" and its always still there. I've also been using things that previously I would not have, such as Maps, apps that run message in status bar such as "Date In Status Bar HD" etc etc.
But full tech-slanted disclaimer because I know the history of this problem:
-My problem on my original unit 99.9% of the time manifested its self as "sleep of death", a bit different than "the masses"
-On my RMA unit, I've never opened Chrome. Not because I am wanting to use it but avoiding it, rather I only ever want to use one browser per device, and since I need to use Boat for Flash, I run Boat instead
-Similarly, I have not done anything "trying to force a crash" on the unit. For example, I've not run that crash app that dude just posted to the Google thread
-Again related to my personality/thought process: My goal has been "just use the tablet as I normally would" so that DOES include things like surfing the web on Boat for 3 hours at a time, running some lame match-3 games, etc etc. I am NOT sitting in a class all day with the unit open for 8 hour stints, nor am I watching YouTube for hours at a time, nor am I taking 1 hour video recordings on the device. So moderate use, but not "stress testing" use.
Still, the summary of my experience says it all (for me) - Could not consider the original unit dependable in anyway, it almost always was "off" if it was sitting on my desk, whereas now the new unit has not had a single event and I'm about one month into it, every day use... Original unit I noticed the problem within the first 3 days of ownership, but I thought there was a setting I had wrong, then I thought it was a problem that 4.2.2 would fix - both those assessments of my original device were wrong.
One more data point on this - My new unit is the D serial number, my original was the C - but another user here described the EXACT same crap I was dealing with, and his was a D - so I don't think there is an exact match for the possible theory of serial numbers (again in the context of sleep-of-death-manifestation.)
:good:
~bm
I've not had one single reboot or freeze with this tablet, I'm on the stock 4.2.2. I have had some apps crash which brings me to my next point... How do your log cats look? They are usually a good starting point when trying to figure out the cause of a crash.
And if you are getting multiple reboots across a spread of roms than it's most likely an app. You need to take the time and figure out which app is causing it. It will be worth it in the long run!
---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------
bigmatty said:
I mentioned it in another thread, but I prefer to charge a units battery 100% full, then run the unit unitl it turns its self off from dead battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do that every time? That's not good and definitely not needed with lithium ion batteries.
hlaalu said:
I've not had one single reboot or freeze with this tablet, I'm on the stock 4.2.2. I have had some apps crash which brings me to my next point... How do your log cats look? They are usually a good starting point when trying to figure out the cause of a crash.
And if you are getting multiple reboots across a spread of roms than it's most likely an app....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that is the point for the OP but nobody is doing it. Can you guys with no reboots list the apps on your device? That would give the people with reboots a starting point.
I appreciate the input to the thread but (I'll probably get flamed for this) many of the anecdotal responses are not of much value IMHO. You can't really start any troubleshooting with and not trying to single anyone out, 4.2.2 fixed it, my RMA'd device fixed it, beta-chrome works for me, non-beta for the wife, it's hardware, newer ones are better, turn off location services, etc. I have an RMA'd device so it is newer than the first batch. To that point, there is a guy in the thread bigmatty linked where the device is 8 days old. Is it an app? I hope so but with the infrequency of the reboots or seemingly randomness of it it is hard to troubleshoot. AOKP ran for 2 days 9 hours for me then crashed, then crashed again in 5 hours, and now up for 2 days again so far. The thing is they were all when idle so it is really hard to say what happened. One of my logs suggests gtalk loosing connection and rebooting the tablet. The other says nothing "illegal" or anything like that in the logs. Just the activity manager freaks out like every other log and then watchdog kills everything.
So, you guys with perfect N10s why don't you give us an app list so us poor bastards with reboots have a starting point....please
rxnelson said:
I think that is the point for the OP but nobody is doing it. Can you guys with no reboots list the apps on your device? That would give the people with reboots a starting point.
So, you guys with perfect N10s why don't you give us an app list so us poor bastards with reboots have a starting point....please
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look, that's not how troubleshooting works. The easiest and most efficient way is to reset your roms, add one or two apps a day, and keep adding apps till you find the problem. Patience is the key. But once you find the problem you'll be very pleased. Me or anyone else listing apps on our devices will not be meaningful to the problem because you're looking for apps that work, you're looking for ones that don't.
Your starting point is a ROM with no apps.
hlaalu said:
You do that every time? That's not good and definitely not needed with lithium ion batteries.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I've personally done a lot of research into this topic, and no one will ever convince me any other method is as good for the batteries as it is. I've seen the battery discussions on both sides drag on for miles, so not worth discussing really. Just IMHO - ALL batteries can still suffer from memory effect. (Again, seen both sides of that discussion.)
I agree w/ the "top-level-general uncertainty" about these devices and thus the inherent frustrating complexities that rxnelson is talking about. My general opinion on the situation, is - if nothing else, there are some truly defective units in the field now, which further complicates the issue/troubleshooting.
hlaalu said:
Look, that's not how troubleshooting works. The easiest and most efficient way is to reset your roms, add one or two apps a day, and keep adding apps till you find the problem. Patience is the key. But once you find the problem you'll be very pleased. Me or anyone else listing apps on our devices will not be meaningful to the problem because you're looking for apps that work, you're looking for ones that don't.
Your starting point is a ROM with no apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea...well that is probably not going to happen for most people. Even at 10 apps 2 days per app you are looking at almost a month of troubleshooting. Most people aren't going to do that. There is also nothing to say that your bad app didn't cause an issue in 2 days but 4 instead you will be thinking the wrong app caused the issue. Anyway it was what the OP asked for so also trying to stay on topic.
rxnelson said:
Yea...well that is probably not going to happen for most people. Even at 10 apps 2 days per app you are looking at almost a month of troubleshooting. Most people aren't going to do that. There is also nothing to say that your bad app didn't cause an issue in 2 days but 4 instead you will be thinking the wrong app caused the issue. Anyway it was what the OP asked for so also trying to stay on topic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I hear you man. When I was in the cell phone business as much as I love android I hated selling android phones because people go app crazy and install whatever they can find. Then they come back the next day because their phone isn't working properly. Lol.
But honestly, how many different apps do you use on a typical day? And let's put games and other non productive apps aside. So for troubleshooting purposes start with the apps you really, truly, honestly NEED and see if you still get issues.
This really becomes a circular discussion. Its the same as the original links I was referencing. Mods are just humoring us by not merging...
bigmatty said:
Well, I've personally done a lot of research into this topic, and no one will ever convince me any other method is as good for the batteries as it is. I've seen the battery discussions on both sides drag on for miles, so not worth discussing really. Just IMHO - ALL batteries can still suffer from memory effect. (Again, seen both sides of that discussion.)
I agree w/ the "top-level-general uncertainty" about these devices and thus the inherent frustrating complexities that rxnelson is talking about. My general opinion on the situation, is - if nothing else, there are some truly defective units in the field now, which further complicates the issue/troubleshooting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd invite you to do some more research into the topic, check this out: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries It's a great site for real battery information.
hlaalu said:
Yeah I hear you man. When I was in the cell phone business as much as I love android I hated selling android phones because people go app crazy and install whatever they can find. Then they come back the next day because their phone isn't working properly. Lol.
But honestly, how many different apps do you use on a typical day? And let's put games and other non productive apps aside. So for troubleshooting purposes start with the apps you really, truly, honestly NEED and see if you still get issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hear you as well. To be honest I'm just kind of done with troubleshooting. I've had a rebooting device since November. I'm just looking for a base to start with I guess. Kind of like at work. We have 10-15 core apps we install and test on a PC. When they are tested we make an image and blast that to the other devices. If 19 of 20 of the PCs work then we re-image the one. If that doesn't work it almost isn't worth the trouble shooting as we have 20 more that need imaged. Most of the time they chalk it up to hardware send it to the PC techs and move on. If I get bored I'll reflash....and yes honestly I don't use that many apps but it is still kind of a kick in the balls that you have to baby the device. I still think there is something generally wrong with the I/O of the two devices I've had. If I do a restore all apps and I mess with the tablet while it is downloading and installing all those apps they were both almost guaranteed to reboot.
hlaalu said:
I'd invite you to do some more research into the topic, check this out: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries It's a great site for real battery information.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:cyclops: I've read it all and done my own tests that span years... Even talked with former battery engineers about the topics and theories. My method always leaves my devices "more charged longer". Like I said, seen this battery topic drag on endlessly...
bigmatty said:
This really becomes a circular discussion. Its the same as the original links I was referencing. Mods are just humoring us by not merging...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So where is that app list?
rxnelson said:
I hear you as well. To be honest I'm just kind of done with troubleshooting. I've had a rebooting device since November. IAt the very least,'m just looking for a base to start with I guess. Kind of like at work. We have 10-15 core apps we install and test on a PC. When they areexpressly increasingxotically increStillasing the oddse tested we make an image and blast that to the other devices. If 19 of 20 of the PCs work then we re-image the one. If that doesn't work it almost isn't worth the trouble shooting as we have 20 more that need imaged. Most of the time they chalk it up to hardware send it to the PC techs and move on. If I get bored I'll reflash....and yes honestly I don't use that many apps but it is still kind of a kick in the balls that you have to baby the device. I still think there is something generally wrong with the I/O of the two devices I've had. If I do a restore all apps and I mess with the tablet while it is downloading and installing all those apps they were both almost guaranteed to reboot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The odds seem so impossible that you personally would have got two defective devices, but clearly you have the tech chops to give a good assessment to the situation - I would love to see your experience with a third device... Just because each different physical device you test would keep exponentially increasing the odds.
A couple of the others who seem real in tune to this issue, I think have a hard or impossible return/RMA path, so I feel like it's an option not being that exhausted yet.
Well, I don't know that I am off much more help on this topic in general. I watched it so intensely for a couple months so its still got my interest. At the very least, guessing all the talks cab start again after klp is released!
---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------
rxnelson said:
So where is that app list?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll do this for you later today. Like I was saying, I think you are Not crazy :highfive: