Related
I have been a member of XDA some time now. In the time that I have been a member I have used various forums from the Wizard thru the Raphael. I am seeing a transformation in the forum that I think we need to correct. When I first joined, the board was very different from the way it is today. The posts were more technical in nature, with people offering suggestions and posting not only the bugs they found with the ROM’s, but sometimes the fix as well. I feel that the Raphael forum has strayed far from that, to the point where people are just posting and waiting for the chefs to fix everything. I am not saying everyone does that, but it is the majority. There are two things I am concerned about. One, chefs are leaving from being burned out or simply not having the time to keep up with all the requests, Second, the quality of the ROMs. See, if we help the chefs by either resolving our own issues or helping them with bug resolution they will have more time for improvements and refinement. This will lead to the fastest most stable ROMs possible. I think the community needs to go back to the times when people were a little hesitant to just post anything, and actually do research and troubleshooting before bugging the chefs. Any and all comments would be appreciated, either agreeing or disagreeing with me.
-McMex
Amen to that! could not agree with you more....
the problem is that flashing ROMs are too easy now, the tools are too useful, and these VERY powerful tools are now in the hands of kids too immature to research for themselves
I agree with you McMexican. Just had an issue in the Blackstone forum over this exact issue you mention here.
P1Tater said:
Here's the issue with XDA lately and it's not just this thread that it's happening. The problem is that everyone reports a bug but noone tries to assist in fixing it. Everyone expects the cook to be all-knowing and be able to fix himself. However, these people have lives as well. They have families and jobs and don't have 24 hours in a day to just sit here on the thread and wait for people to report bugs so they have something to do. So, everyone complains, cries and whines about their issues and never once says what apps they have installed, uninstalled, what regs they have changed or files they have added or deleted and then wonder why the chef doesn't have the issue and why he can't fix it. Then when the chef gets upset. Then, when they do get upset then the "Thank You's" come. Did it ever occur to anyone to thank the chef when the rom worked? No, when it works you don't post and when it doesn't work you post complaints. I wonder why the chef's get upset . Just think about it.
What should happen is if it works, thank the chef or contribute. Damn, even a Thank You goes a long way. If you are having issues, maybe just maybe, report the issue, what you have tried, whatt apps you have installed and what you have uninstalled. Ususally when a chef cooks a rom, they don't install apps to the rom because everything they use is cooked in. Believe it or not, some apps will absolutely kill a rom.
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This is what I posted in that thread but it seems as though it is worth mentioning here as this discusses the exact same issue we seem to be having all over XDA lately.
Agree
I agree with this partly although I'm not sure this is the right place to post it.
Its a free forum and in its nature you will nearly always get this type of thing.
Yes it does burn out alot of the chef's but they also have lives that take on different directions as time moves on and so they come and go.
The bug reporting with no solution must be really pissing our chefs off and it is not just for roms.. I'm seeing it with software enhancements too.
At its core this is still by far the best forum for our devices. I believe XDA has always developed the best ROMS & enhancements for our devices and often take them to places the original manufacturers would never have dreamed of.
I just don't know how something like this can be policed. Nearly all the guys post in their first post something about not asking dumb questions but yet they still get them.
The ones that really piss me off are something like "Just flashed and now blah won't work" with absolutely no details at all.
What I do is leave the 'dumb questions' to the other users of my ROM to answer.. I find the userbase to be generally savvy enough to answer its own questions
The ones that I feel the userbase will not be able to answer easily or in a timely fashion, I post an answer for
It's not that I wouldn't like to have the time to sit there and answer all the 'dumb questions', but my time is better spent doing other things.. and the users don't seem to mind helping each other generally, when it's within their knowledge..
Then again my ROM is a little more hands-on than others, so i've already eliminated a good amount of the 'newbies' by it not being quite so easy to flash
mcmexican said:
I have been a member of XDA some time now. In the time that I have been a member I have used various forums from the Wizard thru the Raphael. I am seeing a transformation in the forum that I think we need to correct. When I first joined, the board was very different from the way it is today. The posts were more technical in nature, with people offering suggestions and posting not only the bugs they found with the ROM’s, but sometimes the fix as well. I feel that the Raphael forum has strayed far from that, to the point where people are just posting and waiting for the chefs to fix everything. I am not saying everyone does that, but it is the majority. There are two things I am concerned about. One, chefs are leaving from being burned out or simply not having the time to keep up with all the requests, Second, the quality of the ROMs. See, if we help the chefs by either resolving our own issues or helping them with bug resolution they will have more time for improvements and refinement. This will lead to the fastest most stable ROMs possible. I think the community needs to go back to the times when people were a little hesitant to just post anything, and actually do research and troubleshooting before bugging the chefs. Any and all comments would be appreciated, either agreeing or disagreeing with me.
-McMex
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P1Tater said:
I agree with you McMexican. Just had an issue in the Blackstone forum over this exact issue you mention here.
Originally Posted by P1Tater
Here's the issue with XDA lately and it's not just this thread that it's happening. The problem is that everyone reports a bug but noone tries to assist in fixing it. Everyone expects the cook to be all-knowing and be able to fix himself. However, these people have lives as well. They have families and jobs and don't have 24 hours in a day to just sit here on the thread and wait for people to report bugs so they have something to do. So, everyone complains, cries and whines about their issues and never once says what apps they have installed, uninstalled, what regs they have changed or files they have added or deleted and then wonder why the chef doesn't have the issue and why he can't fix it. Then when the chef gets upset. Then, when they do get upset then the "Thank You's" come. Did it ever occur to anyone to thank the chef when the rom worked? No, when it works you don't post and when it doesn't work you post complaints. I wonder why the chef's get upset . Just think about it.
What should happen is if it works, thank the chef or contribute. Damn, even a Thank You goes a long way. If you are having issues, maybe just maybe, report the issue, what you have tried, whatt apps you have installed and what you have uninstalled. Ususally when a chef cooks a rom, they don't install apps to the rom because everything they use is cooked in. Believe it or not, some apps will absolutely kill a rom.
This is what I posted in that thread but it seems as though it is worth mentioning here as this discusses the exact same issue we seem to be having all over XDA lately.
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I absolutely agree. Both of these posts describe the reality of the situation. Back in the wizard days for the most part only people pushing the edge of technology bought the windows mobile PDA phones. The same appled to the hermes for the most part. When I moved to the tilt the tides began to turn. Prices of this type of phone began to be more reasonable based upon the technology. More and more companies bagan pushing mail. The internet became more of a requirement than a novelty. Less and less tech savy users began to purchase. These buyers soon learned winmo had a ton of flaws and came to xda. Some spent the time to learn and have become valuable members of the forum. Many did not. They pop in and want us to be the fix all for thier issues. One prime example is GSleon3. How many tilts did he unbrick for people carelessly flashing tilts. When the Fuze arrived the problem only grew. Ive seen more new members in the last 3 months than my entire time on xda. A few of the new members have really taken the time to learn and contribute. MANY have not. I get at least 15 posts a day in my thread asking questions that are answered multiple times in the thread. I get at least 30 posts per day that could easily be answered in at least 1 thread on xda if not dozens.
Most of the chefs in this forum are pushing the limits with cutting edge builds. Da_G has more or less led the way. It amazes me how many users think everything should work perfectly. With all the easy kitchens and premade OEMs so many people think making a good stable rom is easy.
I commend Da_G on pushing the cooking aspect. Hopefully more will realize its not as easy as they think. Ive been at this for years and I learn something new every day.
Over the past month I have grown more and more discouraged. If rom users would spend that extra few minutes to find a fix I could do so much more.
I do however want to thank all of those that have searched, that have, helped,that have answered questions and have done so much to make mine and other chefs roms better
While I do agree with all of what has been stated, and myself to be considered a "NOOB", I really think it comes down to the individual user. I may have asked a question or two (or 30) that may have been answered already before, but I personally try to search and I do try to find the answers myself when I can. I do try and figure the answers myself, but I just don't have the expertise to do so quite often. But myself, I try to make up for my lack of capabilities by way of PayPal to our grear chefs. Others don't truly understand the amount of work that goes into the cooking of ROMS, I am BARELY tapping into that now. I have been visiting XDA for quite some time now and have seen it grow. Unfortunately the user base has grown very large, and it is hard to manage the forums. With there being so many places to find information in this website, it takes time just to locate the information you need. Sadly, I don't see much change unless you start locking down the members capabilities to post, which would defeat the whole purpose of a community forum. As far as it is for the ROM Chefs, a suggestion for you would to not publicly post your ROMs (except in the case of the kitchens, don't do that, I'm addicted!) right away. Maybe put a password on them upon download and have some filtering system or something and maybe only release the password selectively or something. And have a guideline for posters, like your post must contain this: and if the post doesn't have that, then don't even bother responding. Let's face it, we techies with out the tech knowledge are at the mercy of the chefs!
Site is free but maybe some type of short ban on posting for spammer and those who bug chef after three strikes or so by senior member. A chef doesnt cook for just one person he cooks to what you may like. If you dont like a chef rom try another or just go back to dead stock rom bug your carrier. But my idea might be to much work.
Idea
Radimus said:
and these VERY powerful tools are now in the hands of kids too immature to research for themselves
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Wow, really? Maybe you were a dumb kid, but I'd like to avoid this stereotype.
The users on threads need to stop asking dumb questions, though. I think a rating system should be implemented like on Engadget. That way every time someone makes a dumb post we can demote them and limit their post count per day
The reason why there is so many nOObs posting is that the Raphael has had such a tremendous success at the carrier level. Almost all of the US carriers have picked up the Touch Pro. So it is very reasonable to surmize that the majority of new users are new to windows mobile and completely blown away by the amazing amount of tweaks available for it.
Maybe the best idea is create special forums designed for Senior Members only to comment in. They would be locked to all others to comment on, but visible for all to see. Then create another set of forums for general discussion. I see absolutely no reason a development forum should be open to all anyway. I often think if I read one more "Downloading now!" post I will scream! So again, I would lock just the development and hacking forums to approved members, or at least make all posts be moderated first before they are posted. That will keep the development threads clean.
I would then load up the non development discussion forums and threads with adwords and advertising and give that money back to the real developers. LEt the nOObs pay for development indirectly through advertising.
sammypwns said:
Wow, really? Maybe you were a dumb kid, but I'd like to avoid this stereotype.
The users on threads need to stop asking dumb questions, though. I think a rating system should be implemented like on Engadget. That way every time someone makes a dumb post we can demote them and limit their post count per day
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Is this post really necessary?
Anyway,
I agree with McMex about the types of post but part of the problem is the organization of the information. Idea for you, Subdivide the forum so that the Cooked ROMs could have their own POST that was a sticky and only limited to the Chef for editing (containing information about updates and revisions etc,...). Then maybe create another post for ISSUES ONLY with the Cooked ROM. And then one more for the nonsense that burdens the Chef or other users like me who try and shift through the countless meaningless post by the "can you fix..." crew. This might help keep the organization of the VALUABLE information contained in this forum.
I use XDA to help me stay up on the latest stuff so I can impress the boss and his co-horts into believing that I am a technical wiz (ha!).
Anyway, this is a bit disorganized and polluted but if you take the time to search, read, search some more and read some more you can find a lot of great help here. But it does need some organizing. Maybe if some people would use discretion in posting it might help cut down on the smog, if you know what I mean.
DSmithZ28, I think that we are on the same idea.
Many people here started out as noobs, used what they read, and then became developers. I'm trying to do just that. It would not be helpful to limit what I can see as I would not be able to learn the development process as easily. This wave just has to be ridden out and the community will pick up some more help along the way.
Just thought of this from systematic approach and put it in numbers (guessed at the numbers):
Forum pre-influx:
60% Experienced Members
30% Moderate
9% Noobs
1% Don't know where they are
Forum post-influx
45% Experienced Members
24% Moderate
30% Noobs
1% Still celebrating Obama's election
-What this means is that there aren't enough mid level people ATM to handle all of the tedious questions that the developers shouldn't have to answer. As more noob's gain knowledge, there should be a shift in the paradigm, this will even itself out and lead to another great period for XDA!
One thought, what if there were some type of Pledge or Credo thread that would echo the sentiments of this thread. Make it so the new member cannot post until they've responded "Read and Understood" to that thread.
Whatever happens, I pledge to help people find their answers, as it helps me learn along the way.
I know this probably sounds retarded, but back in the Kasier days, there was a couple of users (Scotchua, McMexican, Mfrazzz, taiser999, crispyj, HDStreetglide, JimmyMcGee, Daveshaw, & rzanolgy just to name a few) who floated around all of the rom threads and answered questions along with giving links and subtle prodding of the search function. Maybe if there were more users who did this, things wouldn't be the way they are today. But it will take more than just a couple of users. It will take the work of everyone. Also, we need more users helping edit the wiki's. These are just a couple of suggestions.
Never a truer word spoken, guys
Definitely agree that the culture's changed around here over the past few years.
I dallied a little with cooking a year ago. I was lucky - I had several people helping me by providing solutions to the problems I had (I'm looking at you McMex there, among others!). Back on the Kaiser, every chef helped each other and there was a hardcore group of users who knew what they were talking about and offered solutions. On the Raphael, we've got an excellent group of chefs co-operating, and there are a few of the hardcore, helpful users but I think they're getting lost in the huge amount of other users who seem to think this is an HTC support forum - they've spent money on their phones and think we owe them!
Have the users changed here, or is it just we've got so many more (unconstructive) users in here that they're being too diluted to see?
My time in the kitchen taught me I was out of my depth, and eternal respect for those people who deserve to be in there!
Maybe a read/search count of couple hundred before you can post in the dev forum? Just a thought. Seems like an easiest solution to implement for now.
@ overjjrk
Lol at the 1% celebrating Obama's election
And back on topic, I vote for a Question and Answers section for every device!
Agreed "at least 100%" to post one.
I started - as everybody did - as a NOOB and somehow I learned fairly good (*cough cough*) how to deal with these devices. I do also try to pick up threads now and then surfing the forum and trying to help (enough praise) but it trips me off BIG TIME that it seems meanwhile that NOOB's barely use the search, have no idea how google is spelled and give up after the first try or EVEN WORSE bump their own threads if the don't receive a quick answer. Good that I can keep my temper but sometimes I'd really like to answer "@@#$%%^&"....
I do like what pages like "blownfuze" or "fuzemobilty" provide for NOOBs because with that information stickies would take at least the first three pages of a subject.
Not sure if it can/will work out but fine tuning the Wiki (without breaking it) may help a bit since we all live from the contributions of each other.
An approach could be a Readme 1st section where either only mods or users willing to take this task, can contribute (guess mods will be overwhelmed since they too have a daytime job) and no replies are allowed.
One of the biggest issues and posts I do see recently is "setup the device to a certain provider". I'm not a cab or software guy but could one of these great people here perhaps come up with an idea to have a CAB which will simply set up the connection setting the that particular provider? There aren't more than 2 dozen major ones world wide so that could bring freedom to the chefs to deal with provider specific settings and keep concentrated on fine tuning a ROM still being open for the whole world.... just one of the ideas.
Let's see how this thread evolves.
how about i just start banning people that don't live in new york?
i think this is a good way to go about things.
I'd like to commend everyone who is a part of the activities on this board. It's amazing how people from around the world combine, coordinate, and contribute to the success and fun that is XDA-Forums.
As a recent Android enthusiast (learning to use my Java skills to learn to code for Android)...I find that rooting, ROMS, etc. is really another great way to get much more out of my humble Droid Eris.
That being said, as a total noob (albeit one who's got just enough geek savvy to get himself into trouble), I find that as much as this forum is a wealth of knowledge and skills, but also a bit daunting, conflicting (at times), and disjointed. I've been reading, searching, and piecing together bits of data trying to figure things out, but one has to admit, it's a bit overwhelming...
I see that there is an XDA-Wiki section, but in my opinion it's a bit underwhelming. While I understand to create, edit, update, maintain, moderate, etc. even a small Wiki is no simple task, I believe that to add *more* authoritative content to the wiki would greatly help the new and seasoned enthusiasts alike.
To that I wonder if we as a community of Android, and in particular Droid Eris fans, couldn't quickly and effectively work together to make a Wiki which would provide:
1. A central location for all, authoritative, knowledge for various experience levels. No more trying to figure out which post is correct. Which instructions are better. No more asking the same questions over and over across threads and inadvertently pissing off someone. No more having to spend time answering the same questions.
2. Ability for those who know the stuff to pass it on without having to keep re-answering, re-posting, re-clarifying, re-editing, etc. their posts for the benefit of every noob (such as myself) who keeps asking over and over. I'm sure if we developed a detailed wiki in which folks can submit screen-shots, videos, scripted walk-thrus, etc. it would cut down on a lot of the ancillary *noise* which clutters up our forum.
3. Keep the forum as a place for people to discuss rather than just *learn*. The forum, while useful and FULL of great info, is a hard way to try and piece together fragments of info (sometimes conflicting via different posts/threads). The forum format is a great way to discuss but not an effective means to simply transfer/share/update knowledge. How cool would it be if I followed someone's instructions and posted my own notes to help improve them without having to have the original poster do the update? Or if I decide I love a particular ROM very much, I could post pics, how-to guides, etc. to add to the already great work. This allows the great ROM artists to keep focused on their work rather than mundane tasks like documentation. (As a noob I don't mind doing the mundane if it means I can actively contribute something back to these devs...that and I'm unemployed so unfortunately I can't donate to them just yet).
4. Generally speaking, I'm sure everyone here has turned to Wikipedia at one time or another and can appreciate it's usefulness...being able to click on a word and dig just a litter deeper to gain more understanding. Now imagine if we applied that to the efforts here on XDA? No more having to maintain long sticky threads, or worse having to keep telling overeager/overzealous noobs (like myself) to "do a search" or "read the sticky" or etc. In some cases not having to try and Google things like fastboot, HBOOT, adb, recovery, rooting vs stock, various flavors of ROMs, etc. Or worse having to try and put together info from different forums across the web (i.e. AndroidForums & XDA) and figure out who's *right*.
I apologize to anyone if they find my suggestion offensive, ineffective, and/or just plain useless. I guess as a nooby I'm just trying to give back in the only way I know how: I'm an organization geek (OCD according to my wife).
Cheers and keep up the great work!
+10, wonderful idea.
i like where this could go...
I believe you just saved the internet.
Let's get organized...XDA-Wiki
Glad to see some positive responses. I wasn't sure if my suggestion would be received with interest or disdain. All told, I was sort of jealous of those guys over at nookdevs[dot]com and how easy their wiki makes it for simpletons like myself.
So how does *work* get organized on XDA? I mean, I'd like to start figuring out who, why, what, where, when, how, etc we start building the XDA-Ark-O-Knowledge (aka Wiki)? Obviously there's XDA-Wiki already here; do we build off it, or do we start with a clean slate? Organization of data? Taxonomy? Moderators to ensure we don't bollocks each other up? Etc, etc.
Since I really am a noob to 99% of what's going on here at XDA, I think I'd be better at taking orders and doing tasks than telling the seasoned pros of XDA how to organize their efforts/info/data.
Cheers!
I am also interested and willing to help however I can...
removed posting
I can host as well - I can park a domain on my server or host from my current domain (k2vegas.com)
(there is nothing on that site, it's just what I use to host files, images, etc...)
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/
XDA has one, maybe I should of looked before lulz.
Further thoughts...
Some thoughts on how to proceed forward...
1. jcase, I think we should probably leverage the existing XDA-Wiki that you provided a link to. It's as good a place as any to start.
2. I'd suggest that we, for now, focus on doing the wiki work for Droid Eris in particular. We can use this as a way to figure out how best to capture, arrange, articulate, etc. the types of standardized data (how-tos, specs, ROMs, etc.) The XDA-Wiki for Droid Eris can be found here.
3. Here's some high-level topics. Please keep in mind that these are coming from a real noob, so I'm 100% sure it's not exhaustive nor 100% useful.
Overview - Basic high-level info on Droid Eris and the *recent* changes made to the wiki.
Device Specifications - I think this is covered here but we can add/remove as needed to keep it current.
How-To - Include detailed how-tos for rooting, unrooting, recovery, backup, etc. specific to Droid Eris. As a noob, I would love to see us build this section out with detailed instructions, pics, vidz, etc. to make it as simple for folks as it can be. I also see ECLIPS3's and Jamezelle's Eris Master App as a great tool which would fit into this section.
FAQ - There's already some FAQs for Droid Eris in the sticky on the first post...likely we can take this as is and add more details to it and refresh the data as needed.
ROMs - The ROMs info is spread out quite a bit across many threads/posts. I'd love to see some standardization of data, pics, ROM specific instructions, etc. put into this section. Ultimately I'd love for us to put together a matrix which allows for quick and easy comparison of the ROMs...this would help make ROM selection much simpler and avoid all those repetitive posts about "which ROM should I use?" "which ROM has X?"
Kitchen - ?? I hear this word tossed around and from what I can figure out it has something to do with those elite geeks who actually make those yummy ROMs we love!
Dictionary/Abbreviations - We throw around a lot of terms/abbreviations in this forum and it's hard sometimes to figure out the meanings/context. One place to look them up and get details would be great.
4. As for taking existing data/info from the various posts and copying them to the wiki...I would suggest we either get the "owner" (orig poster/author) of the content to participate and move it for us (and in the process update/clean/revise it as needed). OR as for their permission and copy it for them.
5. Who want's to do what? How is work organized on XDA so we don't step on each others' toes? Do we need an XDA administrator's permission before we start?
6. What else do we need? How else can we develop the Droid Eris Wiki and use it as a model (proof-of-concept) which we can present to XDA-Forums as w whole to adopt?
Thanks!
There's a wiki up at andirc(dot)net. Its in need of content though, so any/all contributions would be awesome!
Wiki
colinodell said:
There's a wiki up at andirc(dot)net. Its in need of content though, so any/all contributions would be awesome!
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Thanks for suggesting we update to the wiki you've provided a link to. However, I was more inclined to build off of the XDA Wiki instead. I've not heard from many folks in this thread as to a preference, so I was going to go ahead and build on the XDA Wiki (specifically the Droid Eris section).
I think if we can build out a nice wiki specific to Eris, it could be a proof-of-concept to entice others to join in (Eris as well as other devices) and make XDA the first and last stop for all Android rooting/modding/hacking/breaking/fixing/improving/ranting/hoping/*****ing/etc.
I think this is a great idea. I also am pretty new to this community but would love to contribute in any way that I can.
Would be pretty cool to have a theming section all about what images do what and where they are.
Started collecting bits...
JokerSP3 said:
I think this is a great idea. I also am pretty new to this community but would love to contribute in any way that I can.
Would be pretty cool to have a theming section all about what images do what and where they are.
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JokerSP3, glad to use all the help we can get. As a noob, I've been trying to build out the Eris wiki with little bits as I learn it. So if you'd like to help, just start adding info as you come across it to start filling in the blanks.
Hello People,
I have a keen interest in Android and ROMs etc but no programming or development knowledge, just an interest. I've rooted and put a couple of different ROMs on my old HTC Desire thanks to XDA and its community of developers and will do the same with my SGT10.1 as soon as ICS is stable and has a working camera .... Thank you all!
What I'd like to know is what's different between Google releasing ICS and say Microsoft releasing Windows 7? Why can't I go to a shop or website, purchase or download ICS and install it on my device in a similar fashion to installing a new OS on my PC?
It seems to the ignorant (me) that they make life very difficult for the devs on this site and others! I appreciate that this is probably a stupid question, but I would really be grateful for someone to take a min to explain, for example, what happens after the developers get a copy for the ICS open source code and before they/you grace us with a stable build for a device? Why is the completed ICS from Google not suitable to simply install? One reason that comes to mind is device drivers! Maybe I've just answered my own question!!!
Again, thanks for all the hard work ... whatever it is?
Not meant to sound rude, but do you really want to wait a few years between gingerbread and ice cream sandwich, pay a ridiculous amount for it, and still have to update it almost constantly?
The difference is Microsoft and generous developers.
Microsoft makes millions.
Android open source developers get self satisfaction and other things, but very little, if anything, in monetary payment (donations).
I know Google is a huge money corporation, but I would hate to see things go the way Microsoft does things in regards to operating systems software.
There are many technical reasons related to the many thousands of different devices, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment, so I'll leave that to someone else who is.
Actually, I think you did your own question.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using one finger.
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions &
Read the Forum Rules Ref Posting
Moving to Q&A
Let me start off by saying donations are definitely a good thing. However, the nature of donations going on on XDA has got me thinking about a few things:
Do you think too many people want and/or expect donations for little things or things that don't really bring much to the table? Disregard the part at the bottom of their post that makes a lot of people seem righteous "Donations are not required, but are appreciated" something along those lines. Lines like that are what probably make people go "aww" or "wow, this person is really cool" But is it a subliminal tug at your heart strings on purpose? I have always been the kind of person that requires no donations because I don't consider myself bringing nothing really new to the table. More along the lines of bringing alternatives to things that are already on the table.
Most of us would do the things we're doing regardless, so why would you want money for it? I know a ton of people are going to rely on the "I never asked for money" stance, but the fact is, you kinda DO ask for money when donation links are plastered all over your topic.
Take for example someone who truly wanted to dive in and understand how modding Android files worked, how to make a ROM, how to theme a ROM. That person would do those things and probably push out something to the public even IF donations weren't accepted on XDA. In other words, true passion would yield community projects anyway, so why pretend like the donations are to "continue this project" when everyone knows you would continue it anyway? It's not like the people are doing these ROM projects just to get money, or are they? Now, I have seen more and more people wanting donations for slightly modifying things that aren't even open source software, like modifying proprietary HTC/Samsung/Motorola/etc files. Is this fair? Where does the line get drawn between giving donations for someone who truly is developing, and someone who is simply modifying?
I feel that teams like CyanogenMod, TeamWin, people who bring things to our phones that aren't otherwise available such as Beats, xLoud engine, etc. are the ones that truly deserve our money because they are the ones who raise the bar, bring exceptional software, software modifications, and new things to the table. So why then, does someone who downloaded a kitchen made by dsixda, smali/baksmali made by jesusfreke, various tools made by other people, and take information freely available on the internet written by other people expect, want, or even secretly want donations?
Chad Goodman is a perfect example of someone who truly does warrant having donations sent his way, but instead is satisfied with a mere thanks and appreciation from the community for his kernel development.
What are your thoughts on donating to people for something like a ROM that was for the most part completed by HTC? I wouldn't be surprised if sooner or later people started expecting donations for giving out information on upcoming phones. There are a ton of true developers that aren't "in your face" and are more behind the scenes that never really get recognized for their brilliance that should deserve our donations, thanks, and appreciation, but in the mix of so many 'developers' they seem to go forgotten.
I learn things for my own satisfaction and to make my phone better, and if I feel like anything I have done to my device can benefit the community that a lot of it I learned from, then I will most certainly share it without any financial compensation direct or indirect. I for one will never accept donations from the community I share things with that I would do for myself anyway, unless I feel that I truly am helping to raise the bar nor will I make it feel like their donation is what drives my continued support on a project, because let's face it- if a donation is what drives you to learn more and share with the public, you probably don't deserve the donation to begin with.
I'd just like to say that I think you're a class act, Freeza. I don't have a 3D and I'm not really sure how I came across this post, but I used your ROM exclusively on the TP2 from PPCGEEKs..Thank you for your contributions and never looking for anything more than a "thanks".
Not agree.
If you don't want - do not donate. If yes - go.
Nobody is not responsible for your unstable mental state, no one is forcing you to do donations.
I making the donations, made it for Kobra-rom and made it for MikRunny rom. Nobody is talking to me to do that, but i think the guys made work, great work, that making me to love my Android-phone. I think, that without custom roms Android is dead, and without the donates development is dead.
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
You're a good guy freeza
Swyped from mah 3vo!
Kemanorell said:
Not agree.
If you don't want - do not donate. If yes - go.
Nobody is not responsible for your unstable mental state, no one is forcing you to do donations.
I making the donations, made it for Kobra-rom and made it for MikRunny rom. Nobody is talking to me to do that, but i think the guys made work, great work, that making me to love my Android-phone. I think, that without custom roms Android is dead, and without the donates development is dead.
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
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Definitely not unstable in any way. This topic is only meant to spark discussion, not take away from developers. I really am looking for a reason that so many people put donation links up all over the place if they do it for the love of learning; with the exception of developers.
Kemanorell said:
Even little development is development.
There is only my opinion.
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Like what is little dev to you, is it modding because that is not. Alpha rev unrevoke teamwin creators of tools is dev without them guys you could not even modify so........ unless you are a dev you don't need those tools so...... What is little
Sent from my powered Shooter E3D with Infection of AnthraX Jamz by wolf.
funny you posted this here, as I just a few sec ago had to comment on this subject in the HTC Desire S forum when responding to a reported thread on this subject...
Here is what I said: (note the main topic was about having donation links in peoples signatures and if non RD's warranted having it. btw)
My personal opinion on the subject though.....
It is more than okay for people to have donation links in their sig's that are not dev's. You dont have to be a Dev to warrant a donation. Many of the themer's and other people that contribute to the community are NOT developers but they provide value to the overall community and if someone wants to donate to them so be it...They might not get much use out of the button, but it is their right to have one if they want...
Now asking or demanding for donations up front will not be tolerated here in any way. There can be a fine line on this with RD's and others using the donation system for their beta's and such before a wide release but thats NOT what I'm talking about here at all. I'm talking about the flat out demanding of a donation before providing a service or doing anything else...If you see that then report the post and I or someone else will handle it.
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Now I also agree the ones that do it out of pure love, I appreciate more as they are the true driving force here, imho. Now you have to agree that these people are taking time out of their personal lives to do work for the community and should be allowed to be compensated when/if users decide to do so. The $$/donation should never be the driving force or reason behind what goes on here. imho
Hence Rule 8 of XDA, "...donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for."
Now as for those people putting links everywhere to donate and such to them....they typically just get put on the ignore list by me. I don't believe your donation link should be the biggest thing in your signature though if there...just poor taste imho and shows you are concerned more about the $ than the community here...
This is just like the professional athlete....some play just for themselves and some for the overall team reward in the end...Those that play just for themselves and the paycheck might be outstanding athletes and likely help a team win a bunch of games, but also might cause other frictions that the athlete playing for the team doesn't cause...both are professional athletes in the end so they are both talented but both have their pluses and minuses...imho
freeza said:
Definitely not unstable in any way. This topic is only meant to spark discussion, not take away from developers. I really am looking for a reason that so many people put donation links up all over the place if they do it for the love of learning; with the exception of developers.
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It is because we are at FORUM, some public-place, some impersonation of the network freedom, if you want...so anybody doing what he's want, because the site is allow that.
---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 PM ----------
.Elite_The_King. said:
Like what is little dev to you, is it modding because that is not. Alpha rev unrevoke teamwin creators of tools is dev without them guys you could not even modify so........ unless you are a dev you don't need those tools so...... What is little
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See, my opinion is simple: any time-donation (to make some theme, other little thing) coast some money. So it is some type of freedom - if you want - make some donation, if not - so not.
And if you don't trust any "little dev", so don't expect to see some really amazing things. Any stick always have two ends.
Ah, yea, i forgot to say, Freeza, i like your work (wallpapers). Thank you.
Freeza, i have to say that you worded that up perfectly but I do feel as though some of the contributions "you" have made here does warrant donations. Your firmware zips (copy/paste or not) alone have saved many here from bricks and a lot of hassle.
Haven said that, I do agree with what you're saying here, anyone with common knowledge can copy and paste code. I myself have built my own personal roms to my personal liking by asking questions, researching, and copy and paste....that certainly doesn't classify me as a dev, nor would that warrant a donation to me if I posted them (even though some have turned out pretty good if i do say so myself lol).
I have donated to 4 devs here, but like you said, it was to those who have brought something totally new to the table and were worthy. The worst are the ones who actually start begging for money on their threads....I find that despicable. We've had those on the 3d thread before....one was banned (for something else), but i digress. I'll just end by saying, you my friend, are worthy of donations.
sgt. slaughter said:
funny you posted this here, as I just a few sec ago had to comment on this subject in the HTC Desire S forum when responding to a reported thread on this subject...
Here is what I said: (note the main topic was about having donation links in peoples signatures and if non RD's warranted having it. btw)
Now I also agree the ones that do it out of pure love, I appreciate more as they are the true driving force here, imho. Now you have to agree that these people are taking time out of their personal lives to do work for the community and should be allowed to be compensated when/if users decide to do so. The $$/donation should never be the driving force or reason behind what goes on here. imho
Hence Rule 8 of XDA, "...donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for."
Now as for those people putting links everywhere to donate and such to them....they typically just get put on the ignore list by me. I don't believe your donation link should be the biggest thing in your signature though if there...just poor taste imho and shows you are concerned more about the $ than the community here...
This is just like the professional athlete....some play just for themselves and some for the overall team reward in the end...Those that play just for themselves and the paycheck might be outstanding athletes and likely help a team win a bunch of games, but also might cause other frictions that the athlete playing for the team doesn't cause...both are professional athletes in the end so they are both talented but both have their pluses and minuses...imho
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Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
freeza said:
Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
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yeah I agree. though I dont mind the donate button in signatures really long as its not some big huge button taking up half the sig...then its just poor taste imho...Also the whole "asking for donations" id put in the same category...You shouldn't have to ask for it nor remind people to donate to yourself...let others remind people to donate and spread the word that way....
freeza said:
Good points... but do you really think some people who receive donations do it for the community or do they do it for themselves and simply share it with the community? Because if they're not taking requests and simply posting up something they've done, it was more than likely done for themselves before the notion of donations were even considered, then simply shared it with everyone else with the intent OR later intent on getting donations.
Having a donate button under your avatar is different and for the most part fine, because it isn't obtrusive, but when you plaster something at the bottom of your signature and/or posts telling people if you've helped them to 'please donate' or 'please consider donating' or any other phrase out there that is condescending to the bottom line of "GIVE ME MONEY", that's where I think it goes from being fine to just annoying.
Take for instance someone who made a ROM, then at the bottom of the ROM is like "so there you have it guys. OH and by the way if you find any of this helpful, donate to me!" or "please consider donating so that I may continue work on this project" and it's like.....really? That's borderline breaking the rules, at least in my eyes. I feel like the point of donating is for those who truly want to donate, and by doing so haven't read any annoying catch phrases that would make them feel obligated to donate--hence the donate button under your avatar. XDA should consider banning signature advertising of donating and strictly keep to the button. That and ban people from soliciting by using word trickery such as "If you feel i've helped you, donate to me" because a lot of time I DO feel as though someone has helped me, but if I don't donate, does it mean I don't feel that way?
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I agree. I think that anything regarding donating shouldn't be allowed in someones signature or in their OP. I think the button is enough. I have donated and actually had to ask the dev what there paypal email was because I couldn't find any other way to send it to them. I also had another dev turn down a donation. I respect both of them a lot more for that.
While I don't consider my contribution as large as other peoples, I have a donate link. I realized that people actually appreciated the downgrade CD in my signature. That, more than anything, makes me happy. While I didn't develop the downgrade method (Unknownforce gets my full respect for this), I started putting in a (hopefully unobtrusive) link to my post on my policy on donations. I later changed that, and now I have the sidebar link.
Personally, my rationale for having a donate button was so that maybe I could buy a second hand phone or two to start developing for (likely ones that don't have the largest development community). I want to put out things while learning more about Android.
Now, I haven't received anything yet, But I'm okay with that. I love that I have been able to help (even in the slightest). That's really rewarding to me.
~co~
certain things warrant donations like hosting i try to get my user to donate to the host cause that is the most expensive part of deving and i think asking for donations for a goal is reasonable such as faster hosting, putting an app on the market, buying a mhl cable for testing etcc.
Nice discussion. I'll have to read all the comments in a bit and see what everyone says, but to me I agree with your OP freeza. I believe devs should definitely recieve donations if the raise the bar and bring something new that users didn't have before, I also believe that if you are enjoying and aprecciate a developers constant work then you can donate. I don't like developers and modders who have half their signature be a donation sign or constantly ask for them. Donations shouldn't even be asked for on here. I believe that the donation button above your avatar is enough to let users know "if you want to donate then here you go".
I have the little donation button at the top and although haven't received a donation yet, I don't personally care. It's my passion to learn more about android that keeps me going and making themes. Not the money. I don't believe I have actually done anything worth receiving money for.
Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk 2
I don't mind people asking for donations if they make customizations to ROMs and host them themselves. If it's basically reassembling others' works and throwing it up to a free host.. well, then you're just doing your hobby.
Off topic, but freeza, are you going to get an Evo LTE? You're a guy I want to see in those forums.
Sent from my Evo 3D using Tapatalk 2.0
yousefak said:
Off topic, but freeza, are you going to get an Evo LTE? You're a guy I want to see in those forums.
Sent from my Evo 3D using Tapatalk 2.0
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Of course I am! and thank you, I will definitely be a part of it.
I agree with u freeza, I think the Rd's/Dev Teams and/or users that actually create the tools and/or create their own code, ports, etc... should be the only ones that should be allowed to ask for donations (If they so choose to).
IMHO, they are the ones bringing the stuff to the table and provide us (The users) the tools to allow us to modify and cook our own custom roms, etc..
Now I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms. They certainly deserve all the thanks for all their hard time and effort spent on creating their roms.
There's really a fine line here, You have the users that create custom roms from the tools that dev's create and then you have the dev's that create those tools to begin with. Without the building blocks to create those roms, there wouldn't be anything for us to flash.
So i believe that donations should be more favored towards dev's and not users who create roms to their liking.
Like I said before, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms, I flash roms daily and thank the people who make this phone worth keeping. This is just for discussion purposes only.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
neonfreak20 said:
I agree with u freeza, I think the Rd's/Dev Teams and/or users that actually create the tools and/or create their own code, ports, etc... should be the only ones that should be allowed to ask for donations (If they so choose to).
IMHO, they are the ones bringing the stuff to the table and provide us (The users) the tools to allow us to modify and cook our own custom roms, etc..
Now I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms. They certainly deserve all the thanks for all their hard time and effort spent on creating their roms.
There's really a fine line here, You have the users that create custom roms from the tools that dev's create and then you have the dev's that create those tools to begin with. Without the building blocks to create those roms, there wouldn't be anything for us to flash.
So i believe that donations should be more favored towards dev's and not users who create roms to their liking.
Like I said before, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone who creates roms, I flash roms daily and thank the people who make this phone worth keeping. This is just for discussion purposes only.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
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I understand where you are coming from and in a way I do agree, but with that said I have to add in that just because ROM developers are creating ROMS with other people's tools does not mean they aren't spending just as much time writing code as the people who made the necessary building blocks. For a large part of ROM development people can't just simply use another's tools. Especially for ports. It requires lots of testing and risk and hours of looking at notepad++ and eclipse (or other ide's) . So I do agree alot of people need to think about the outstanding tools developers have made, but people who make ROM's are just as easily developers as the ones who design the tools.
Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk 2
If time is available I'm very interested in the android platform and I need help from everyone. I wanted to know if any themers or app developers or rom developers could share with me what kind of training, schooling, etc they have that got them where they are with android and if they have a primary career. I just have questions about going to school and stuff. Thank you ffor your time.
Hi.
I've learnt to theme from reading, experimenting, bootlooping, reflashing, trying again and doing it all over until I'd figured something out and still learning today. It's a hobby that's quite addictive and depending on what you want to learn depends on how much of your free time you can dedicate to doing so.