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Obviously I'm a n00b I just got my 8525 yesterday, right away I upgraded to WM6 went all day today with it working fine, I installed a PockMSN and Windows Live anyways to keep it short I FIGURED I WOULD just RE-INSTALL Windows Mobile 6 to get a fresh phone (didnt know hard reset did the same) Actually it was the 3rd time I flashed the OS and RE-UPGRADED to WM6 to get a fresh phone!!!!
~heres the trouble~
In the middle of the reinstalling WM6 I accidentally reset my computer, didnt realize it right away and, got ERROR 260 I believe, anyways I followed the directions, took out the battery and reset, plugged the USB back and RAN the Offical WM6 Rom of HTC site again and it keeps getting stuck EVERYTIME at 11%, I have tried it like 10 times and it gets stuck at 11%, and I get the same ERROR. Says Communication error 260. I have tried everything I know reset the computer, changed USB cords, and Nothing, everytime it gets stuck at 11%!!!!!!
Any Ideas about how to get my 2 day old Hermes back??
(I know i did a n00bish thing and I am sorry)
same place everytime!!
I tried to reinstall Active Sync, changed USB cables, switched USB ports, nothing!! I keep getting ERROR 262 (thought it was 260 at 1st) and wont get past 11% says no connection. I do notice everytime i try this process, Active Sync isnt connected, but the Hermes is connected to the computer! Cause if it cant read the hermes it wouldnt be able to even start the update process. But 11% everytime its stops
nicknowsky said:
I tried to reinstall Active Sync, changed USB cables, switched USB ports, nothing!! I keep getting ERROR 262 (thought it was 260 at 1st) and wont get past 11% says no connection. I do notice everytime i try this process, Active Sync isnt connected, but the Hermes is connected to the computer! Cause if it cant read the hermes it wouldnt be able to even start the update process. But 11% everytime its stops
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perhaps you could try to flash using the sdcard method. So you would not be connected to a pc anymore. Who knows, it could solve your problem. I know one case where installing an official rom cured also a similar problem.
Quick summary of the sdcard method:
Use an empty sdcard formatted in FAT32
Copy the RUU_Signed.nbh file containing the OS to the card and rename it: hermimg.nbh
Enter bootloader mode (OK + POWER + Softreset). Normally, after the 3colors screen, you will get "Loading" followed by a description of what is on the card.
When ready, press power and... wait...
Good luck (The phone is NOT connected to the pc)
sounds good but I dont have a MicroSD card reader to do that. And I am using an Offical HTC WM6 ROM, thats all I ever used was the offical WM6 Rom from the AT&T site. Like I said, I was able to install WM6 already, but me being a complete idiot was Flashing the upgrade ROM to get the Hermes back to fresh phone factory settings. But I accidentally reset the computer in the middle of Flshing and since then I have never been able to get it to install again, everytime I turn on the phone I am stuck at the Tri-Color Screen, I am able to restart the upgrade process, but it stops at 11% says ERROR 262 and no connectivity!!
please anybody knows anything, this is the only thing I got, my mom got it for me! We cant afford to get a new one, or even fix it, it was a special present!
nicknowsky said:
please anybody knows anything, this is the only thing I got, my mom got it for me! We cant afford to get a new one, or even fix it, it was a special present!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok. I am a bit annoyed if you cannot try the sdflash method (BTW you can ask somebody having a PC to prepare the card for you.)
There are different things you can flash on your hermes. Radio, OS, Splash screens, Extended Rom,.... The most tricky thing is the radio rom as a failure there has a higher probability to brick your pda.
This is why i believe it is very dangerous to flash right away without some readings and understanding about what you do. i hope you had some experience here.
Did you first install hardspl (olipro 2.10 )? This is not mandatory but is a very good protection against bricking. (here the excellent guide of mrvanx: http://www.mrvanx.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=27 )
Did you flash also a radio rom? (Was it included in the "package" you wanted to flash?) If yes, i am a bit anxious that a stop at 11% is a problem... BUT, if you flashed a radio rom, it goes very, very, very... slowly. And gives the feeling that it freezes. For the "radio" part it is normal . I hope you did not stop the process too soon.
Once again, try the sdcard method. Or try to flash an official rom (most of the time containing a radio part...) and be patient. Can take till 25 minutes.
If this does not work, do not panic yet. Others had also problems before you: go there and start reading : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=286755 and here http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_Unbrick
There is a hope to solve your problem. Good luck
Try to flash a radio ROM, turn the device on and if it stays at the bootloader screen (the tri colour screen) make a note of the version displayed. Hook up the device with USB cable, dont worry about activesync.
Download and unzip a radio ROM upgrade (try this one), run the exe, select your bootloader version on the screen....follow the screens through and see if it works.....radio roms take ages to flash so DO NOT disconnect your device.....if it doesnt work you most likely have a corrupted radio bootloader.............which is likely since the radio flash takes the longest ammount of time the reset probably occurred halfway through this.................unlucky
Give it a try though.
The lesson to learn here is to READ THRICE and flash once.....never ever disconnect your device out of impatience (which i suspect has happened many times on a radio flash) and be carefull these devices are expensive
mrvanx said:
The lesson to learn here is to READ THRICE and flash once.....never ever disconnect your device out of impatience (which i suspect has happened many times on a radio flash) and be carefull these devices are expensive
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could not say better
I know, the MicroSD method is nice, but when I got the phone the guy gave me a MicroSD card, but not the regular SD card to read it on computers ( i do have a card reader) Guys a super appreciate the replies> I am gonna try everything rite now, but real quick is my Hermes FUCT??? or is this error fixable??? It is just losing communication everytime at the exact same place, it just seems like something is fixable, but my sorry luck i cant get over the hump!! I will let ya'll know ASAP
okay, here is the thing, Every Hermes ROM update utility I have downloaded wont work, i start it and the VERIFY INFO ON HERMS windows appears about 2 minutes late I get ERROR 260 and it exits! Now when I use the OFFICAL WM6 upgrade ROM from the ATT/HTC site it seems to read the HERMES and wanna start the upgrade process, but thats where it ends at 11% No other RUU I have used or tried has even gotten that far, I just get ERROR 260 before it starts and I have to exit.
What it looks like is I cant communicate with my HERMES at ALL!! Active Sync wont see, only when I reset my computer and reset the HERMES and I plug it in a different USB port, it says Installing New Hardware and HTC USB something and then Hardware has installed and is now ready to use. But Active Sync wont recogniZe it
I'm sorry to tell you that but i think you ****ed up your phone and it is as useless as my ****ing jasjam.
please give us some detailed info s about your hermes like IPL SPL GSM STATUS....
When I am in Tri Color Mode I see.......
HERM100
IPL-1.04
HERM100
SPL-2.03
and SERIAL at bottom, then USB when I plug it in to my computer
I had upgraded to WM6 before on it, but me being a impulsive FOOL, i flashed it again to get me back to Factory Setting (didnt know HARD RESET did the same) and I accidentally RESET my computer in the middle of ROM Upgrading and ever since I cant get past 11% when I try to do it again (using the OFFICAL WM6 ROM from HTC)
and I cant get any communication with mtty although I dont know much about that app, I get a CANT load screen appear
is your phone KITL enabled.
hold the COMM manager button + POWER button + OK button (the one on the left side under the jog wheel) and reset with stylus.
if you see KITL dialogue then it is KITL enabled (MY bricked jasjam is KITL disabled)
if it is KITL enabled then read : http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=PB_KITL_HERMES and your phone will be just fine.
if it is not then your phone is ****ed up just like mine
HA HA, me and my phone guy (well the guy who I bought my Hermes from) HAVE FOUND A FIX to get the phone outta Bootloader Mode and back into OS!! in my case WM6!! I have to do it 1 more time to fully confirm the method!!!!!!!! My friend is calling "SHOCKING THE PHONE" but not really shocking anything!! I am reluctant to share the method, but this site needs more people to actually HELP out others
nicknowsky said:
HA HA, me and my phone guy (well the guy who I bought my Hermes from) HAVE FOUND A FIX to get the phone outta Bootloader Mode and back into OS!! in my case WM6!! I have to do it 1 more time to fully confirm the method!!!!!!!! My friend is calling "SHOCKING THE PHONE" but not really shocking anything!! I am reluctant to share the method, but this site needs more people to actually HELP out others
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey dude!
Would you kindly provide me the sulotion.
I would appreciate it.
nicknowsky said:
HA HA, me and my phone guy (well the guy who I bought my Hermes from) HAVE FOUND A FIX to get the phone outta Bootloader Mode and back into OS!! in my case WM6!! I have to do it 1 more time to fully confirm the method!!!!!!!! My friend is calling "SHOCKING THE PHONE" but not really shocking anything!! I am reluctant to share the method, but this site needs more people to actually HELP out others
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mmm... do i understand correctly your post? Are you hesitating to help others because your method is risky, or because you express some exasperation about people on this site? In this case, do not forget that all people here are exchanging ideas, questions etc on a totally free base without any obligation. In the limits of there knowledge. Encountering a problem after flashing a device is the only responsability of the user. We just try to help. But i prefer to believe that you found a method, still risky, that you need still to test
That said, it seems that there are an increasing number of hermes encountering a problem with the radio part. It seems that stopping a flash at 11% is a symptom of that. See some consolidation of those problems here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=349461
I hope you will find a solution for your problem and moreover i hope that none of you bought a hermes second hand with an already radio part problem. If so try always to get your money back...
I AM trying to confirm my method BEFORE i share it, because it might work on mine, and I dont wanna screw anyones hermes up more
nicknowsky said:
I AM trying to confirm my method BEFORE i share it, because it might work on mine, and I dont wanna screw anyones hermes up more
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why don't you answer my PMs????
Please tell me your sulotion and let me try that if you have any
Hi all,
I've got a problem with my hermes phone which I can't solve by my own I think :
My device gets stucked while booting. It just shows a "htc smart mobility" screen and displays the various red numbers on the bottom for some seconds (as usual I think). But it's not going any further (waited for about 20 minutes).
I flashed the "Hermes.DarkVisions.v5.17.23017.Manila" rom over my exisisting "Schap's 4.22" rom a few hours before. The rom was running good. Then I executed the "kill em all" app by mistake, which can be found in the accessory folder as far as I can remember. Then the phone began to work very slowly so I decided to restart it. And now its not really working any more.
By connecting the phone with my pc and trying to flash a new rom, I get the RUU Error "200 INVALID UPDATE TOOL" - what does this mean? The auto detection of the current bootloader obviously doesn't work due to no running windows mobile.
Is there any chance to flash the phone without a running windows mobile? Or what else can I do to get the current rom "Dark Visions" running again?
Thanks a lot for your help,
Michael
Press The Power, The ok button (usually found on the left side) and The reset button using your pen until this rainbow coloured thing comes up.
Plug it into your USB and then reflash your ROM, also don't forget to upgrade your radio as you will need it to stabilize your custom ROM which you will find under wiki part of this forum. Just search "Hermes Radio" and click the first thing you see.
Now your device should be back to life again.
OK, so I've been reading the Common Upgrade Problems on the wiki, and I saw this:
Important : Windows VISTA users need to make a change to their system to successfully use many ROM packages. See Mr. Vanx's guide here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since Mr.Vanx's website was taken down, I ask you what are the changes i need to perform and if I need to apply them to Windows 7.
Best wishes!
Any help in here?
Please, i have the same trouble. I didn't work with Windows 7. Does Anyone know a solution?
hey guys, im having major issues with my HTC HD2.
I have upgraded my rom previously and it worked fine. i just did the telstra one off the htc website.
STATS:
os version: 5.2.21869 (21869.5.0.82)
manila version: 2.5.20121431.1
ROM version: 1.72.841.0 (82124) WWE
ROM DATE: 02/23/10
Radio version: 2.07.51.22_2
protocol version: 15.32.50.07U
I am now tryign to upgrade once more because im having software issues with my current set-up, hoping a rom upgrade will solve it. but, i cant upgrade my rom! i am using CustomRUU.exe as the host program for running the .nbh files. i have tried artemis's latest rom, radio uprgrades, andriod ports, maxsense cooked roms, everything! and i cant get it to get past this screen.
so the issue. i hook up my HTC HD2 to my computer connect via activesync, i then drag the chosen .nbh file on to CustomRUU.exe and run the file and the rom upgrade, im doing everything they say and my htc is hooked to the computer with the arrow things confirming. i do the acceptance steps, and it gets to the progress bar and sits a 0% (on my laptop) while my HD2 works through it.
it goes to the red green blue screen, says USB down the bottom, goes black and displays a HTC loading screen with a progess bar at 0%
this is where the issue is.
it stays at 0% for about 5-10 minutes, on BOTH the hd2 and the laptop, than the computer gives me an error code [262] : UPDATE ERROR...(i am aware that this is a connection error and should resolve with restarting for the computer and the device and a new usb port used)... but this has not solved my problem. as soon as my HD2 restarts and goes to the red green blue screen i lose connection with the computer and it times out. My HD2 just loads the htc progress bar screen and does nothing
i dont even get 1%!!!!
i have tried installing HSPL but it says i need sspl 1.42.000 (i think), so when i try to install that via a rom or whateva it is, it gives me the no connection freezing issue.
im stuck in a violent circle and get get past this issue.
basically, the rom uprgrade wont work because my device is apparently disconnected form the computer and the install times out.
someone please help! PLEASE!
im sorry if this is a simply fix and im being a noob, but i just am stuck real bad!
thanks in advance guys
ryan
start with HSPL!!!
ryan whitmore said:
I have upgraded my rom previously and it worked fine. i just did the telstra one off the htc website.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Changing to a customized ROM is very different from upgrading through HTC website , and it starts by installing HSPL on your phone..
you should start here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=609477
but its probably easier to resolve your current "SW issues" than installing a customized suitable ROM for you at this stage.. so why dont you post what the SW issue is instead.. (unless your phone does not boot at all now..)
rgds
just quickly, sw issues?
SW issues
ryan whitmore said:
I am now tryign to upgrade once more because im having software issues with my current set-up, hoping a rom upgrade will solve it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
software issues = SW issues
Depending on what your Software problems are you could try to post them and try to solve it.
The fastest ways is to install the right HSPL you can use the link in the post of "ugguggh" which has a good manual about how all works. You also can read through the 1st two posts in de threat displayed below. Here you cna find which HSPL you need for your version.
CLICK HERE!
After installing the right HSPL its just a matter of choosing your desired ROM and install it.
I'm currently working with the Artimis V27 ROM NL and i'm not experiencing any problems it runs very smooth. Just format your SD card and try to download Task29. First run "Task29" before installing the ROM. It cleans up old stuff from your old ROM install. After Task29 finished press volume down before it reboots your phone so you enter the bootloader. Now you can start the CustomRuu application and install your desired rom. (if you enter a blanc HTC screen after Task29 (thats normal because there is no OS to load anymore) just remove the battery and hold volume down while putting the battery back or using the power on button)
ryan whitmore said:
i am using CustomRUU.exe as the host program for running the .nbh files. i have tried artemis's latest rom, radio uprgrades, andriod ports, maxsense cooked roms, everything! and i cant get it to get past this screen.
so the issue. i hook up my HTC HD2 to my computer connect via activesync, i then drag the chosen .nbh file on to CustomRUU.exe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont do that, put customruu and the nbh in a folder on their own, then right click customruu and choose run as administrator (do this even if you are logged in as administrator)
and run the file and the rom upgrade, im doing everything they say and my htc is hooked to the computer with the arrow things confirming. i do the acceptance steps, and it gets to the progress bar and sits a 0% (on my laptop) while my HD2 works through it.
it goes to the red green blue screen, says USB down the bottom, goes black and displays a HTC loading screen with a progess bar at 0%
this is where the issue is.
it stays at 0% for about 5-10 minutes, on BOTH the hd2 and the laptop, than the computer gives me an error code [262] : UPDATE ERROR...(i am aware that this is a connection error and should resolve with restarting for the computer and the device and a new usb port used)... but this has not solved my problem. as soon as my HD2 restarts and goes to the red green blue screen i lose connection with the computer and it times out. My HD2 just loads the htc progress bar screen and does nothing
i dont even get 1%!!!!
i have tried installing HSPL but it says i need sspl 1.42.000 (i think), so when i try to install that via a rom or whateva it is, it gives me the no connection freezing issue.
im stuck in a violent circle and get get past this issue.
basically, the rom uprgrade wont work because my device is apparently disconnected form the computer and the install times out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
use a usb port around back of the pc, not in the front case.
the 'you need 1.42.0000...' is wrong, its old info. Use hspl3 and choose 2.08.hspl
THANKYOU! but here are my sw issues
hey guys thankyou for all ur help, i downloaded hspl3 and it worked and i have tested a few different roms,, and i installed Miri_HD2_WM65_21908_Sense25_V17.0_WithSwype, which is working quite well right now and i am pretty damn happy with it so far.
i installed S2U2 and since then it started to play up a lil..
the issues are that in general the whole entire system is slow. not neccesarilly windows but sense... :\
messages are sometimes unusable, frozen very laggy, and occasionally needs a soft reset. phones is unusable, can make calls, just cant hear dialtone, microphone sender and recevier isnt working, NO SOUND! shortcut calender viewer on the sense homescreen takes mins to hours to load appointments and sometimes doesnt for days. and in saying sometimes is lightning quick...???
besides that i am not experiencing many other issues YET...i will have to wait a few more days. though i would really like a solution to the phone issue if that is possible
would love to beable to use a android port (a very good, everyday use version), and if anyone has any info on it, would u beable to post some for me please
i have tried haret and it wont work. i load clrcad then haret it runs through the first stuff, then the screen starts to fad and i get lines on the left then it slowly goes black and nothing happens. requires a soft reset to get the phone working again..
I AM JUST FULL OF ISSUES! sorry guys
anyways thankyou EVERYONE for all your help u have been great so far
thanx
ryan
I just bought this phone TODAY because I got excited about Mango.
So, I followed the Zune trick to get Mango (disabling connection to get updates) because I got only 7008 on my phone.
It went fine for 7329 and 7403 but when I tried updating to 7720 (Mango), Zune is stuck at Step 8 of 9 (restarting phone) and my phone just vibrated a few times with HTC logo stuck on the screen.
After a while, I just cancelled the update and then when I tried to switch on, it vibrates a few times and stuck at HTC logo AGAIN.
So, is my phone bricked? And how to solve it. Pretty please. I'm a super newbie here. Day 1 as a proud WP7 owner.
No your phone is not yet bricked.. you can step into bootloader mode and load custom rom on it.. and then get update.
dhavalhirdhav said:
No your phone is not yet bricked.. you can step into bootloader mode and load custom rom on it.. and then get update.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do I do that? I'm sorry, still super newbie. I just read about RSPL/HSPL. I'm new to HTC. Before this, I got Samsung.
I'd stay away from RSPL/HSPL for now if you're new to this, there are too many ways to brick your phone down that route.
Firstly I'd recommend starting your phone up and leaving it at the HTC screen for a bit, it can take up to 5 mins to start after a huge update has been installed. If that gives you no luck, head over to this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=915827
Find the rom that matches your carrier, for example I'm Orange UK so I will scroll down to part D and pick one of the Orange UK roms.
Now turn off your phone, and switch it on holding volume down. You'll see a tricolour screen, it should say 'serial' at the bottom. Now connect this to your computer, windows update will auto install the drivers and it will now say 'USB' instead of serial.
Run the romupdateutility.exe from the file you downloaded (and extracted to somewhere on your computer). After various tick boxes and OKs it will give you the old wm5 progress bar and soon enough you will have a factory installed windows phone build 7008
let us know how it goes.
feygor said:
I'd stay away from RSPL/HSPL for now if you're new to this, there are too many ways to brick your phone down that route.
Firstly I'd recommend starting your phone up and leaving it at the HTC screen for a bit, it can take up to 5 mins to start after a huge update has been installed. If that gives you no luck, head over to this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=915827
Find the rom that matches your carrier, for example I'm Orange UK so I will scroll down to part D and pick one of the Orange UK roms.
Now turn off your phone, and switch it on holding volume down. You'll see a tricolour screen, it should say 'serial' at the bottom. Now connect this to your computer, windows update will auto install the drivers and it will now say 'USB' instead of serial.
Run the romupdateutility.exe from the file you downloaded (and extracted to somewhere on your computer). After various tick boxes and OKs it will give you the old wm5 progress bar and soon enough you will have a factory installed windows phone build 7008
let us know how it goes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it OK for me to install ANY ROM? Because mine is not branded.
Update: Nah, all ROMs gave me invalid vendor ID and I have to find a goldcard which I'm not capable of. So, Service Center it goes.
Hi,
If you haven't gone to a sevice centre already, then I would try the RSPL/HSPL (it is very easy to do)...then flash an ansar ROM. This will certainly fix you current issue.
Is there already RSPL/HSPL for Mango Bootloader?
Hello!
I use android with the htc hd2 for about 1 year ago, and the i want to back to windows mobile. I came from android, and when i finished the rom install the phone is stop when the windows mobile (orange color installer,please wait while your device is starting for the first time...) installer is finished it's always power off or just do nothing. I try to install a custom too. Neither the original and neither the custom din't work. The android work great, but i want the windows mobile 6.5.
If you have an idea please tell me.
Sorry for the bad english.
First of all, congratulations to your first post.
How have you tried to install WM?
Have you removed HSPL?
Have you changed RADIO?
Maybe you will have a look on this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1421179
uli71 said:
First of all, congratulations to your first post.
How have you tried to install WM?
Have you removed HSPL?
Have you changed RADIO?
Maybe you will have a look on this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1421179
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I find my problem:
MicropERROR:
Microp Version Mismatch
0x0
Please update lateset Microp
firmware
What can i do?
somebody have the same problem?
The touchscreen isn't work in windows mobile, but if i install android or windows phone 7 the touchscreen is working
Mene44 said:
I find my problem:
MicropERROR:
Microp Version Mismatch
0x0
Please update lateset Microp
firmware
What can i do?
somebody have the same problem?
The touchscreen isn't work in windows mobile, but if i install android or windows phone 7 the touchscreen is working
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I changed the radio the spl,hspl, rom(custom,orginal)... but nothing
bear with me here, guys, as i am new to not only this site, but to the world of htc and smartphones all together...i apologize in advance!
so my friend had this htc lying around and said i could have it since my previous phone took a crap. it's on tmobile so i was going to have it flashed over to at&t.
however, the phone seems to be a brick....it will not boot past the initial "stick together" screen.
yes, i tried the hard reboot...pressing and holding volume up+volume down+power button. it takes me to the screen asking if i want to reset the device..i hit volume up to confirm. it goes through the reset. i hit volume up to boot the device. it gets to the "stick together" screen, vibrates 7 times, and freezes.
well, it was doing that anyway...but only when plugged in. the little orange light used to turn on when i connected the charger--now nothing.
and now it won't let me into the hard boot screen again. just...black. removing the battery and replacing it does not work.
i had taken it to the gentleman to flash it to at&t, not knowing this problem existed. he called me (because i left the phone there, since he had a line of people) to tell me the phone was freezing on that screen. i gave him the ok to do what he called a "hard wipe". i went back for the phone this morning and he said he did the hard wipe, and it was still freezing--told me the phone was only good for parts at this point.
so i took it home. i plugged it in, and i did what i described above.
what the heck do i do?! i would love to be able to rescue this phone! like i said, i'm totally new to all of this so if you're going to throw terms at me like RUU (which i saw all over this site), i have no idea what you mean so please post a link to another thread or something that can explain these things to me, if you do not want to do so yourself.
oh, my friend also said she had put an at&t sim card into the phone (unflashed, still on tmobile) before and tried to turn it on...but nothing happened. could that be what caused the problems?
UPDATE: took the battery out for approximately 10 minutes. put it back in, and the phone turns on again...one short vibration while the screen is still black, then the "stick together" screen pops up and the phone vibrates 7 more times....annnnnd freezes again. its also starting to get very hot on the bottom, backside...