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Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
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Click to collapse
IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
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Click to collapse
This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
A few days ago was excited to see the Honeycomb update roll out. Running a rooted best buy flyer. The early reports of installing Honeycomb were not appealing. For some of us finding out the exact procedure (after rooting) is still a mystery. There is no clear cut procedure to update.
Other than some minor security enhancements and a tad more speed, what's the big deal to upgrade anyhow?
The newness of HC will eventually wear off and what are you left with? There are posts about apps not working, formatting issues, sluggishness, loss of menu buttons, system crashes, browser crashes, game installation issues, loss of connectivity, gps not locking...etc, WOW!!!
This is not a motivator to upgrade. I'm sure there are embarrassed and pissed of users who were sorry they upgraded.
I'm going to wait until this things are ironed out and some smart dev stops whining about "too many people are pm'ing them for help." Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up. We are all volunteers trying to help each other. Get a reality check.
It's going to be a while until most of the apps in the Android market fully support Honeycomb on tablets. For now Gingerbread works fine, headache-free.
Big_O said:
A few days ago was excited to see the Honeycomb update roll out. Running a rooted best buy flyer. The early reports of installing Honeycomb were not appealing. For some of us finding out the exact procedure (after rooting) is still a mystery. There is no clear cut procedure to update.
Other than some minor security enhancements and a tad more speed, what's the big deal to upgrade anyhow?
The newness of HC will eventually wear off and what are you left with? There are posts about apps not working, formatting issues, sluggishness, loss of menu buttons, system crashes, browser crashes, game installation issues, loss of connectivity, gps not locking...etc, WOW!!!
This is not a motivator to upgrade. I'm sure there are embarrassed and pissed of users who were sorry they upgraded.
I'm going to wait until this things are ironed out and some smart dev stops whining about "too many people are pm'ing them for help." Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up. We are all volunteers trying to help each other. Get a reality check.
It's going to be a while until most of the apps in the Android market fully support Honeycomb on tablets. For now Gingerbread works fine, headache-free.
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It's your device and what you like that should be important.
Choosing a side is tough.
--------------------------
"Neither have they hearts to stay, nor wit enough to run away."
Butler, Samuel on indecision
Took a couple deep breaths before responding to this dribble. I am going to attempt being polite. You clearly are misinformed, but that is not the issue. Your total lack of respect for people who dedicate personal time for little reward for the love of the device and the platform is disgusting. It would be one thing if it stoped there, but oh no it does not. The "whiny" dev you are referring to did not want pms sent so that the resolutions can be read by all, for the greater good. I am particularly fond of this approach as it is how I learned everything I know about android. Reading others experiences, and learning what to avoid and how to recover
In summation, WOW
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
mcord11758 said:
Took a couple deep breaths before responding to this dribble. I am going to attempt being polite. You clearly are misinformed, but that is not the issue. Your total lack of respect for people who dedicate personal time for little reward for the love of the device and the platform is disgusting. It would be one thing if it stoped there, but oh no it does not. The "whiny" dev you are referring to did not want pms sent so that the resolutions can be read by all, for the greater good. I am particularly fond of this approach as it is how I learned everything I know about android. Reading others experiences, and learning what to avoid and how to recover
In summation, WOW
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
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if i could high five you i would
newalker91 said:
First off, you need to do some damn research as to why Honeycomb is great for tablets. Gingerbread was built for phones, Honeycomb was built for tablets. It makes the most out of your screen space so you can multitask and use larger format interfaces.
Second... WOW.
Congratulations on being the most ignorant petulant child of a poster to ever step into XDA. These developers do what they do out of their own personal interest and creativity. They have NO responsibility to support, update or even RELEASE material to this website. If people like you pulled their head out of their ass long enough to thoroughly read the entire set of instructions and also had a high enough level of reading comprehension to understand said instructions, they wouldn't be getting bombarded with the stupidest PM's for **** like "hai ur rom borke my tablet, i dint wipe data cuz i wunted to save my angry berds game". Calling the developers whiny for not wanting to deal with that? Good lord you're dumb. YOU need to get a reality check before you get banned. I sincerely hope you hard brick your tablet in the near future and no dev responds to your cry for help.
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As a dev that gets bombarded by stupid questions daily, I want to hug you now.
Big_O said:
I'm going to wait until this things are ironed out and some smart dev stops whining about "too many people are pm'ing them for help." Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up. We are all volunteers trying to help each other. Get a reality check.
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This is the one and only post I will make on this topic.
I never asked people not to ask for help, I told them to do it in the forums where others could learn from the answers. I make no apologies whatsoever for that position.
Continuously dealing with PMs makes it impossible to deal with the underlying issue for the benefit of the whole community. It's pretty selfish to consider oneself entitled to individual support to the detriment of everyone else. In as far as is possible I have tried to answer every single question asked in every thread I have posted, I'm sure there have been a few missed but the number is small. When people have done that and are still stuck I have provided additional support via teamviewer.
In addition to the honeycomb upgrade released at that time for the Flyer I was working on the S-OFF upgrade for the Evo view, a device which I don't even own and for which I had to start form scratch by first patching the honeycomb hboot. This is a device who's users are pretty much all located in a timezone which meant working through the night for me to support them.
I gave up the vast majority of my Christmas/New Year vacation to these two things and then providing support for them. Yes, there is a responsibility on developers to support their work however that responsibility is primarily to the community, not to any one individual. I have more than discharged any developer responsibilities for work I have provided, had I answered all the PMs I received in that time neither of these two items would yet be resolved.
Is ICS not being developed for this tablet? Honeycomb is old news already.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S Captivate using XDA Premium.
Keep the flames coming . I'm entitled to my opinion in a public forum. Yes, there are some ignorant requests from people, but there is a polite way of handling things? Moderator's can't ban because they don't agree with somebody's post. Have been involved with XDA since 2008. There are hundreds of forums on a multitude of handsets with millions of posts. All the hard work and long hours are greatly appreciated. This doesn't mean I'm going to sheepishly sit on the sidelines and kiss ass and NOT VOICE AN OPINION. This is a tablet. This is the flyer forum. There are many developers (myself included). I'm not in high school and probably more experienced in the real world than some of these college kids hoping I'll brick my device. It's a $300 tablet that is fun to play with. It's a grain of sand on the beach compared to my other toys. If it bricks will throw it away and get another one.
Was happy to see a honeycomb update. Before you tar and feather the mailman, understand this thread is not about bad mouthing a dev who contributes a lot to the XDA community. It's about respectful communication.
The cons outweigh any benefit to move to honeycomb at the moment IMO.
BTW, this isn't the Soviet Union.
BTW: Here's the thread you were looking for in the first place http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1358758
Big_O said:
Was happy to see a honeycomb update. Before you tar and feather the mailman, understand this thread is not about bad mouthing a dev who contributes a lot to the XDA community. It's about respectful communication.
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There really wouldn't be much of an issue if what you said was respectful. But there was absolutely nothing respectful about what you said:
Big_O said:
I'm going to wait until this things are ironed out and some smart dev stops whining about "too many people are pm'ing them for help." Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up. We are all volunteers trying to help each other. Get a reality check.
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Big_O said:
A few days ago was excited to see the Honeycomb update roll out. Running a rooted best buy flyer. The early reports of installing Honeycomb were not appealing. For some of us finding out the exact procedure (after rooting) is still a mystery. There is no clear cut procedure to update.
Other than some minor security enhancements and a tad more speed, what's the big deal to upgrade anyhow?
The newness of HC will eventually wear off and what are you left with? There are posts about apps not working, formatting issues, sluggishness, loss of menu buttons, system crashes, browser crashes, game installation issues, loss of connectivity, gps not locking...etc, WOW!!!
This is not a motivator to upgrade. I'm sure there are embarrassed and pissed of users who were sorry they upgraded.
I'm going to wait until this things are ironed out and some smart dev stops whining about "too many people are pm'ing them for help." Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up. We are all volunteers trying to help each other. Get a reality check.
It's going to be a while until most of the apps in the Android market fully support Honeycomb on tablets. For now Gingerbread works fine, headache-free.
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This just about sums it up … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MRmxfLuNto
Thank you. Your time and contributions are greatly appreciated. My apologies.
I will have to save that YouTube URL as it can be used in many threads here on XDA of late. I got a good chuckle from it.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S Captivate using XDA Premium.
Well you know some people just should just not be allowed to own guns or high tech equipment. But even for those people that have marginal grasp of proper operation of such devices, it would still be OK as long as they only hurt themselves and not those that try to help them. This thread was obviously started by someone that doesn't know how to keep from hurting others and it belongs on the dumpster.
Pretty sad that the OP feels justified to come on here and "speak his opinion" by insulting globatron and call him a whiner. I've been on XDA through 3 different devices over 4 years, and I honestly think he is the most helpful and generous with his time I have seen of any developer or user on all of XDA. He answers just about every question asked of him, and then some. Many developers don't even come close to taking the time to do that. And they shouldn't have to, anyway. Whoever said that just because you are a developer, you have to become everyone's personal unpaid tech support person?
As globatron already indicated, he didn't say he wouldn't help anyone. He just posted some steps to try if you have issues, before bombarding him with PMs. He will still help, and I have seen him help numerous people by opening up a team viewersession, and getting it done through all hours of the night. Is there any forum in the entire internet where a total stranger will give you such help? Not just for smartphones/tablets, but for ANYTHING?
I also don't see the point in coming on here and pigeon-holing your critics as being high-schoolers, and bragging about how you are so rich that you don't care of you brick your Flyer.
No clear cut procedure to update to HC? About 5or 10 minutes of browsing and reading and you would have found that globatron's guide is the way to go. And he was kind enough to spoon feed you the link. All you have to do is download the file and run the .exe. How much easier could it be?
I haven't experienced any system or browser crashes on HC. I'm also puzzled about some people's comments on sluggishness. HC is very snappy for me. Everything seems as responsive as GB. Which is impressive, considering HC is heavier on eye candy and animations. As far as game/app compatibility, it depends on what apps you use. I haven't experienced any compatibility issues. All the core non-game apps I use run exactly as they do on GB. I don't play a huge number of games, but the ones I do play work fine. I know there are some games out there that have issues (Gameloft in particular?). But if the ones you use are compatible, it doesn't matter.
HC is a completely different OS experience from GB, designed for tablet screens rather then a small phone screen. The launcher and menus are all laid out taking advantage of the increased screen real estate. Not sure if its important to you, but the pen integration is hugely increased, and works on many apps, not just Notes and PDFs.
GB was a perfectly functional OS. But it was really just an incremental update of Froyo. HC feels much more refined. While using the Flyer with GB made it feel like just a really big smartphone, HC actually makes it feel like something a step above that. If you don't like the update, its not that hard to roll it back to GB.
Firstly - respect and kudos to the devs and experts that help those of us who are less informed about android and the flyer.
But, I do share something of the OPs sentiment.
The HC upgrade is a pros and cons thing; with the loss of function keys and some reported incompatibilities and some users reporting a slow down.
It is a balance of pros and cons.
The HC upgrade is a step into the unknown and there is no easy downgrade path (which maintains your warranty if you get into difficulty). So it is a plunge... and I too have not yet taken it.
deaglecat said:
Firstly - respect and kudos to the devs and experts that help those of us who are less informed about android and the flyer.
But, I do share something of the OPs sentiment.
The HC upgrade is a pros and cons thing; with the loss of function keys and some reported incompatibilities and some users reporting a slow down.
It is a balance of pros and cons.
The HC upgrade is a step into the unknown and there is no easy downgrade path (which maintains your warranty if you get into difficulty). So it is a plunge... and I too have not yet taken it.
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I believe leedroids hc Rom has hardware key functionality but I havent tried it. And on behalf of us overly enthusiastic end users who frequent these forums, big thanks to globatron and all the other devs for giving us all that they do.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
Big_O said:
Being a dev has it's responsibilities. Telling users to stop asking for help in an open forum is frigging disgraceful. Forums are for helping people not telling people to shut up.
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Click to collapse
Big_O said:
There are many developers (myself included). I'm not in high school and probably more experienced in the real world than some of these college kids hoping I'll brick my device. It's a $300 tablet that is fun to play with. It's a grain of sand on the beach compared to my other toys. If it bricks will throw it away and get another one.
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To be honest guys, this thread could have been helpful for people who are still decided whether they should upgrade to HC or not. Or at least a good thread for discussion. I personally enjoy reading people's opinion regarding this topic as I'm currently attempting to enjoy HC.
And although I agree with some of you, the OP voiced his opinion and you guys responded by flaming him from the start..
Sent from my HTC Flyer.
Scabes24 said:
To be honest guys, this thread could have been helpful for people who are still decided whether they should upgrade to HC or not. Or at least a good thread for discussion. I personally enjoy reading people's opinion regarding this topic as I'm currently attempting to enjoy HC.
And although I agree with some of you, the OP voiced his opinion and you guys responded by flaming him from the start..
Sent from my HTC Flyer.
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I think the OP's opinion on the pros and cons of HC is respected by all. It was his labelling of globatron as a whiner that is totally unacceptable especially since he got most of his facts about the issue wrong.
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
I've had a phone from most android manufacturers (Samsung Galaxy Ace, LG Optimus One, HTC Wildfire, Motorola Atrix (for a few weeks)) and out of all of them, I preferred the Sony ones, Xperia PLAY, and Xperia U. Why? Because they actually have software that the manufacturer has clearly spent time on.
Lately, the Xperia sections on xda have deteriorated into a piece of sh#t, with people whining about updates and expecting everything.
Not just Sony, they seem to be bashing developers too. If someone doesn't want to release something, then they don't have to, at all.
What people expect here is a release of a official update literally a week after source release, well that's not going to happen. They have to implement their board and hardware as well as kernel and vendor trees into the source, rewrite all applications and software, update the kernel, update all of the graphics, update themes, get it certified by Google, then tested, then released, and this could take up to 6-8 month. Sure, I bet you could say they could just use vanilla, but they can't, they have to stick with their proprietary UI if they are updating a phone that uses that UI.
Sony provide developers with source code and instructions, as well as reworked binaries, and have recently provided The Android Open Source Project with a developer for the LT26 and also licensed binaries. They also provide devices through the developer loaner program.
Winging like an arsehole on here won't get you an update any quicker, and it only pisses of the few developers you have here.
If this persists, then I'm sorry to say this but I won't pay attention to xda at all, flaming a manufacturer on here does nothing apart from make you look like a total dickhead, and it won't get you anywhere. Sony never signed a contract saying they will update any phone, and until they do, I won't expect an update.
As I said, a few more snide remarks pointed at Sony and I'm gone, to somewhere where you can actually post a topic, and develop, where someone will not demand a fix or not read any of the thread and ask stupid questions. And any abuse directed towards any developer and I'm gone for good, no looking back. People like jerpelea and Kali work for hours writing lines of code and you guys demand fixes and complain when a release is missed.
'Keiran
As you said, the problem is that most people are so closed minded they they don't realize that the world don't spin around them.
Using the subject here: Sony is a company. A Multi Billionaire company. That means they are part of the capitalism, which leads to the idea: Win Money. At the end, what they want to do is that. But they choose to be a good company, and offer support to their users. But if they are too much supportive, they won't win money. Do they have to put the bad and good things, and find an equilibrium between support and money. At my point of view, they are close to it.
Everyone thinks it's easy to run a company of that size. It isn't. That is what's missing here. This vision.
"What really matters in this world, anyway?"
Sorry but... I need to post this...
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Its not an joke.. This time the meme is serious..
In reality, its real.
I can write a whole page about those people but nevermind. Let them be them, let us be us.
And what if Sony didnt give a single f8ck like other companys?
Be happy what you get.
This is just what i gonna say.
Respect others work, respect the big firms and respect each other. If you think you can do it better then show us your work. If not? Sorry to say, then please get the f8ck out of here.
No one has the right to disrespect each other.
And as user disrespecting an developer?
Unthankfull little sh8t, be happy its for free!
Be happy they make great work for just thank buttons!
Send from my high-end HD killerphone.
Here's how I see it...
Firstly, I can totally understand where you're coming from Keiran. As the thread created by K900 shown, the people demanding everything really does have a detrimental effect on not just you developers, but the rest of us users aswell. Afterall, if all of our devs decide to leave due to certain people's attitude, then it's a huge loss for our whole community.
Also, as my post said in that thread, it's truly sad to see the way XDA has turned out. When I first started lurking on this site was November last year and things were a lot better then. Obviously there was still people demanding things and thinking that the developers owed them something, but it wasn't as bad as it is now.
This is perfect proof that Operation Ironfist needs to brought back.
On the otherhand, I'll have to come against you for this bit.
Obviously I have no right to tell you what to do, and I wouldn't even dream of doing so, but saying you'll leave simply because people are bashing Sony is, in my opinion, laughable.
I truly respect the work you and the other developers over here have done and that won't change.
I just feel that a double-standard is being used here.
You say that if people don't stop demanding things from Sony and from you developers that you'll leave. That in itself, is demanding that people stop acting like that, to stop you leaving.
Also, you can't attempt to force people to change their opinions. Fair enough you prefer Sony devices, as do I as the majority of phones I've owned have been Sony/SE, but you cant change their mind.
That would be like me forcing you to change your mind about your thoughts on this forum. You'd effectively tell me to 'do one'.
This is in no way intended to degrade you or your work, it's simply my opinion. It would be good to hear your thoughts about this
James
KeiranFTW said:
I've had a phone from most android manufacturers (Samsung Galaxy Ace, LG Optimus One, HTC Wildfire, Motorola Atrix (for a few weeks)) and out of all of them, I preferred the Sony ones, Xperia PLAY, and Xperia U. Why? Because they actually have software that the manufacturer has clearly spent time on.
Lately, the Xperia sections on xda have deteriorated into a piece of sh#t, with people whining about updates and expecting everything.
Not just Sony, they seem to be bashing developers too. If someone doesn't want to release something, then they don't have to, at all.
What people expect here is a release of a official update literally a week after source release, well that's not going to happen. They have to implement their board and hardware as well as kernel and vendor trees into the source, rewrite all applications and software, update the kernel, update all of the graphics, update themes, get it certified by Google, then tested, then released, and this could take up to 6-8 month. Sure, I bet you could say they could just use vanilla, but they can't, they have to stick with their proprietary UI if they are updating a phone that uses that UI.
Sony provide developers with source code and instructions, as well as reworked binaries, and have recently provided The Android Open Source Project with a developer for the LT26 and also licensed binaries. They also provide devices through the developer loaner program.
Winging like an arsehole on here won't get you an update any quicker, and it only pisses of the few developers you have here.
If this persists, then I'm sorry to say this but I won't pay attention to xda at all, flaming a manufacturer on here does nothing apart from make you look like a total dickhead, and it won't get you anywhere. Sony never signed a contract saying they will update any phone, and until they do, I won't expect an update.
As I said, a few more snide remarks pointed at Sony and I'm gone, to somewhere where you can actually post a topic, and develop, where someone will not demand a fix or not read any of the thread and ask stupid questions. And any abuse directed towards any developer and I'm gone for good, no looking back. People like jerpelea and Kali work for hours writing lines of code and you guys demand fixes and complain when a release is missed.
'Keiran
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree, was time that someone says that. This bashing and *****ing became extreme in the last weeks. Totally annoying.
I only want to read positive things from now on.:highfive:
I noticed a trend. Most of them who shoot Sony came from the same country. Same for those who always complain about minor issues that can be easly solved. I'm not being racist, but facts are facts. Besides, they are always comparing Sony with Samsung but seemed to forget to compare with LG and Mototrola.
I say leave the modding for the mods and do our work. Noone here is a nobody to regulate people's expressions. If something is out of the way the mods are here to bring it on track. Moreover what memebers say here is their opinion which we should not try to stop, it is a forum after all, a community.
Don't mind those who don't matter. Those who matter won't mind. Simple as that.
Tapatalked !
Hello peeps, looks like another thread on the same issue !
Need I say more ?
BTW why are you getting so carried away with what they / others say ?
Regarding the devs, if anyone uses a demanding / demeaning tone while interacting with them just tell anyone of us(me & E.Cadro) and we'll do the needful.
Please don't make me repeat the above guys.
Cheers & Regards,
'cooleagle'
As i speak here,Yes i have some problem within my device which sony have very bad customer service and blaming device faulty on the user.
I do want to bash them until end of the world but on the bright side.
Xperia U & Sola user should have read properly what sony blog has written.
Next up, we can confirm the global versions of Xperia S, Xperia acro S, Xperia ion, Xperia P, Xperia go and Xperia J will be upgraded to Android 4.1* – we will be back with detailed timings for these in due course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They mean they can confirm that those above devices is guranteed to receive Android 4.1
but did they ever mention they will not release Jellybean for the Xperia U & Sola? *think twice*
Sony will constant release software update for the Xperia Flagship device and midrange like they did on the ICS release on Xperia 2011 line up
They release for the Arc S & Neo V & Ray before continuing with those small screen and lil devices.
It's a sad new to Xperia 2011 that i couldn't say much
We were glad to provide the Android 4.0.4 upgrade for our 2011 Xperia portfolio across most markets and the majority of models but, after thorough evaluation, we have concluded they will not be upgraded beyond Ice Cream Sandwich.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As they did stated that it's not upgradable to JB but they did not say that Sola & U is not upgradable
So for this section of Forum.
I don't own a Xperia NXT but this is line up that has dual core which Sony Will Come out with updates after they release updates for high end & high end mid range NXT & Arc series.
As explain keiran there's long process as company to release and update not just build up from source and pushed out to user and ta-da
Massive bug report flaming over android's forum.
I think there's bright possibility update reaches on the NXT series for JB but sadly they won't update for sure for the Xperia 2011
I don't wanna say much. I know that everyone does make mistakes, so we should not mind them. Don't care about the other people's speech or opinion or just not to reply to their troll or demanding comment. Just care about the post which is helpful to your work. Since NO one is perfect and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, you can't comfort them ALL. You only do what's good for you and it'll be the BEST choice u've ever made!
Sent from my LT26i using xda premium
I go Sony Xperia Go with ICS. I too agree there is no pointing bashing Sony since for me if a phone fulfill one's need then it does not matter whether it has GB or ICS or JB. Since most of the apps and games available run well in my Sony Xperia Device. I am satisfied with Sony
Seriously?! Sony UI is vanilla android with cool & great color themes and that useless timescape. Walkman & album apps are also nice but apart from that there's not so many features standing out from Samsung or HTC. Sony didn't even have notification bar toggle until now. I'm finding it hard to find extra Sony exclusive features.
Skickat från min LT26i via Tapatalk 2
Galaxen said:
Seriously?! Sony UI is vanilla android with cool & great color themes and that useless timescape. Walkman & album apps are also nice but apart from that there's not so many features standing out from Samsung or HTC. Sony didn't even have notification bar toggle until now. I'm finding it hard to find extra Sony exclusive features.
Skickat från min LT26i via Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony UI is vanilla droid? :crying: Like Google's android works out of the box? Just like that?
gosh... tell me I didn't read this.
I had a HTC before the SXS and the software was CRAP... laggy, buggy, crashy, not optimized at all, they never even tried to FIX it. Same with Samsung, laggy, buggy, crashy. Samsung devices actually make that up with quadcore's and stuff. You can actually tell that Sony is putting a lot of effort in optimizing their software for their phones.
SnowOokami said:
Sony UI is vanilla droid? :crying: Like Google's android works out of the box? Just like that?
gosh... tell me I didn't read this.
I had a HTC before the SXS and the software was CRAP... laggy, buggy, crashy, not optimized at all, they never even tried to FIX it. Same with Samsung, laggy, buggy, crashy. Samsung devices actually make that up with quadcore's and stuff. You can actually tell that Sony is putting a lot of effort in optimizing their software for their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree, observing the evolution from X10/Arc/S.
The progress is huge.
Yea Sony Rules even if they dont update the 2011 line , its ok because i am going to move on to another sony phone ( xperia v ) , Manufacturers wont update phones for a lifetime!! , phones need to get discounted every now and then .... its good sony released ics for whole 2011 line ( no play ) and look at htc , moto and samsung.... Moto just finished updating devices to ICS ..... Samsung selects only a few to upgrade ( mostly flagships) .....
Be happy that Sony has updated atleast ICS and they said "we will continue to improve ICS software on your phones"
!
KeiranFTW said:
I've had a phone from most android manufacturers (Samsung Galaxy Ace, LG Optimus One, HTC Wildfire, Motorola Atrix (for a few weeks)) and out of all of them, I preferred the Sony ones, Xperia PLAY, and Xperia U. Why? Because they actually have software that the manufacturer has clearly spent time on.
Lately, the Xperia sections on xda have deteriorated into a piece of sh#t, with people whining about updates and expecting everything.
Not just Sony, they seem to be bashing developers too. If someone doesn't want to release something, then they don't have to, at all.
What people expect here is a release of a official update literally a week after source release, well that's not going to happen. They have to implement their board and hardware as well as kernel and vendor trees into the source, rewrite all applications and software, update the kernel, update all of the graphics, update themes, get it certified by Google, then tested, then released, and this could take up to 6-8 month. Sure, I bet you could say they could just use vanilla, but they can't, they have to stick with their proprietary UI if they are updating a phone that uses that UI.
Sony provide developers with source code and instructions, as well as reworked binaries, and have recently provided The Android Open Source Project with a developer for the LT26 and also licensed binaries. They also provide devices through the developer loaner program.
Winging like an arsehole on here won't get you an update any quicker, and it only pisses of the few developers you have here.
If this persists, then I'm sorry to say this but I won't pay attention to xda at all, flaming a manufacturer on here does nothing apart from make you look like a total dickhead, and it won't get you anywhere. Sony never signed a contract saying they will update any phone, and until they do, I won't expect an update.
As I said, a few more snide remarks pointed at Sony and I'm gone, to somewhere where you can actually post a topic, and develop, where someone will not demand a fix or not read any of the thread and ask stupid questions. And any abuse directed towards any developer and I'm gone for good, no looking back. People like jerpelea and Kali work for hours writing lines of code and you guys demand fixes and complain when a release is missed.
'Keiran
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough but if you cant understand the frustration people show when they have either not received promised updates or are having to put up with buggy firmwares when all the while Sony remain tight lipped then you are just one of the dickheads and arseholes to be honest, only difference is you are trying to take the moral high ground. Hot fixes for things like proximity sensors, data, bluetooth audio etc. should happen quickly, Sony already have the firmware and have been working with it for months.
Sony is its own worst enemy unfortunately.
FWIW telling people you are leaving a forum is one of the oldest tricks in the book, it is like telling someone you are going to commit suicide, you are just after the attention.
I don't think Sony ever told that Xperia 2011 will be getting JB at the first place. But it was 2011 users expecting JB since lot of them have similar specs to 2012 devices. So to expect Sony let them down by not upgrading 2011 xperia to JB is not proper
I think people just feel a bit let down. The whole 'android gang' or whatever it was called was about updates for 18 months. Now all of the manufacturers are guilty of this (and it's why I think there are so many new Nexus devices because Google know it didn't work) but people feel a bit conned. It's one thing not having new OS versions but another entirely to have many bugs unfixed for so long.
Customers are of course ungrateful gits. The more you give the more they demand...
SnowOokami said:
Sony UI is vanilla droid? :crying: Like Google's android works out of the box? Just like that?
gosh... tell me I didn't read this.
I had a HTC before the SXS and the software was CRAP... laggy, buggy, crashy, not optimized at all, they never even tried to FIX it. Same with Samsung, laggy, buggy, crashy. Samsung devices actually make that up with quadcore's and stuff. You can actually tell that Sony is putting a lot of effort in optimizing their software for their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like the first ICS for SXS was smooth as butter? After Sony had over 9 months to optimize it?! Gimme a break, what Sony needs is to employ more software developers so they can do the job faster and more efficient. You get the feeling that Sony has 3-4 guys coding etc...
Skickat från min LT26i via Tapatalk 2
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
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Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
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Click to collapse
Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
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Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
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Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
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Click to collapse
Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
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Click to collapse
What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
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Just Received my TS. Although I like it I am wondering if there is any future for this device. The 6+ months delay seem like an eternity and what looked like a promising novelty is already lagging behind. And what makes me wonder is the apparent separation between the company and the first batch of users. How come that not one single bug seem to have been fixed? How come that there is still no OTA updates? Omate closed their official forum and is redirecting to xda for support, but where is Omate in this forum? And what about the possibility of switching to Android Wear, that looks like it will be the standard for this type of devices? I was a happy backer of their Kickstarter project, but at this point all I think is that I bought myself a Xmas present that was delivered at Easter!
Omate, obviously totally abandoned this project.
Rumors are thet they are preparing TS2 so TS is something that used that as a learning base...
Don't know did you followed g+ but I talked much about exactly the same problem months ago...
I said: (in December 2013): when we get TS that device will be old and many other device will be released.
We'll have expensive project that will be just overpriced and unusable...
I'm very sorry to see that but even then while community attacked me -I was right...
We'll try to give our best and try to adapt it but TS is dead and that's, unfortunately, something Omate admitted long time ago...
There's no Omate on XDA, no support, no answers or anything...
We are alone mate...
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
funky0308 said:
Omate, obviously totally abandoned this project.
Rumors are thet they are preparing TS2 so TS is something that used that as a learning base...
Don't know did you followed g+ but I talked much about exactly the same problem months ago...
I said: (in December 2013): when we get TS that device will be old and many other device will be released.
We'll have expensive project that will be just overpriced and unusable...
I'm very sorry to see that but even then while community attacked me -I was right...
We'll try to give our best and try to adapt it but TS is dead and that's, unfortunately, something Omate admitted long time ago...
There's no Omate on XDA, no support, no answers or anything...
We are alone mate...
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Agreed. Omate is done. They were done before they started shipping.
1. Warranty- HA! Null and void
2. OTAs, support, service- LOL
..... U get the picture....
If something goes wrong with your TS...I guess your only choice would be to contact Omeox. Omate certainly won't do anything and most likely won't be around to help. This has been their MO from the beginning. For example, the infamous BT problems and Omate's lack of dev support. This alone spelled disaster for the company and sealed the coffin for any future "free" help from the dev community. Lesson learned: ANY start-up MUST have, keep and strengthen the full support of the community devs.
And lastly, the Omate disaster has laid a major wake to future smartwatch, IGG or KS, campaigns. Its a real shame...now, for any fledgling tech trying to grab a foothold in this market, that truly has something new and innovative, will have to work twice as hard to get noticed.
All due to Rocki and LLP's lies, misleading marketing and "bait'n switch" game.
Thanks Omate!
NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
While all this is definitely a shame, one bright side out of this is that I have a damn cool watch, and I paid about fair market value for it (the other Umeox watches go for similar prices). I guess I'm lucky in that mine works fine, so I don't have to deal with Omate again.
I realize that some specs have changed which kinda sucks. But I never intended to go swimming or anything with this, and the other spec changes are minor to me and don't really reflect anything in real world usage. The patch available really make this thing a good, usable, android watch phone (thanks again, Loki!). So I'm at least happy with what I got out of this whole ordeal.
Will I back anything on kickstarter (or others) again? Hell no! But at least I don't feel like I got screwed out of my money.
LLP was bragging on his g+ account about Omate's skills. While I think it is impressive they managed to produce a product, the fact remains that the hardware they used is debatable theirs and if what Loki has said is true, the software is Omate's main field of expertise and that in itself is of a questionable quantity.
I just do not understand Omate. I am not fussed about waterproofing and what not, but not being open about it until after the orders were taking just isn't cricket.
And then this whole lark about not having service centers in your country bla bla bla. Omate should just accept some things will break and have made back up watches to replace those which do. Those which are broken could be shipped back, repaired and resold.
The lack of anyone from Omate here seems really odd. I guess it could be a language issue but I doubt it.
What puzzles me is what did Omate expect to happen? For XDA to do all the work? For the project to develop a life of it's own?
I do think Kickstarter has lost an awful lot of credit, but I do not think the blame should be theirs. Omate just caused PR disasters one after another. Even now, the manner of the conduct online is extremely unprofessional.
Would I buy another Omate (TS2)? Most likely not. I love my TS and think it is super cool, but I want a device which will grow and has a loving community behind it. It is clear there is no love for this device now.
Unless Omate have some secret stuff going on in the background such as a huge update and a ton of new features, I don't see anything special about the Omate. I had an EC309 and with the exception of Omate's sd slot, it could do everything the TS could.
Personally, I think Neptune Pine will win people's hearts. It has had a bumpy ride but recently started being VERY open about production problems and delays. Perhaps it takes an Omate to get these Kickstarter companies to step up a notch.
I'll probably buy a Neptune Pine and other smartwatches. I don't think Omate has killed people's love for the concept, but it has left a bitter taste in many peoples mouths regarding crowd funded projects.
Hyperthetically say if we were to developer/begin a new Smartwatch or smartwatch company. Thru market research we established that there was a massive demand for something similar to the Omate or the A.I. Watch, I.e. a mobile notification and stand alone Android with a sim card wifi, gps BT ...etc.
First we started to source the unit (as designing a new one would take too long and cost too much and it would be copied) what would be the 'do's & don'ts'?
Keep it civil pls and dont say do the exact opposite of Omate... although that would probably go a long way.
It's more of about the way Omate managed the release rather than the product. I accept there would be issues in development.
What is odd is that the watch seems to be available to buy on their China site with no mention of it being a pre-order/ waiting God knows how long till it turns up. Does this mean that they're actively selling them now in China before sending the backers theirs?
Like their Chinese site though. At least it gives info about the company.
http://china.omate.com/
Have they (Omate.com) removed the specs info'?
simple1i said:
Have they (Omate.com) removed the specs info'?
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Click to collapse
Doesn't seem like it. They still have that annoying avatar with the Omate being splashed. Their Chinese site still has the specs up. I think they still say the camera is 5 mega pixel.
http://china.omate.com/smart.php