Related
Just wondering. If and when we get custom rom's (fingers crossed for cyanogenmod) how are we going to deal with playing the HD content we've come to love on the archos'? (Hell, its pretty much the only thing it can do without struggling it seems). As the video player is archos code.. hopefully can pull it out of rom without problem when have full root. But if not its a bit of a drag as I haven't found any other player on android which plays as much and as well as the archos one.
Does the source code which was released earlier Contain the code to get hdmi-out/video player stuff? I'm guessing not
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
They can just leave it in the ROM right? I mean I don't think they will be writing them from scratch. Just modifying the existing roms.
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
thefunkygibbon said:
given that the performance of the rom is worse than what I was running on the G1 i kinda hope that people WILL be cooking from scratch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
thefunkygibbon said:
hardware not meant to have android? eh? what aspect are you talking about? its only the chipset that would really matter. hardware rarely is made for software, its usually the other way around. the snapdragon cpu in this device is the same cpu that is in my desire (apparently) .. yes the "motherboard" or whatever the equivalent is when it comes to these sort of devices and memory might be different spec and maybe worse than other devices, they could be contributing towards the poor performance compared to other devices running the same cpu. but i would tend to suggest that the rom optimisation has a very large contribution to the poor performance of this (and many other) devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
the performance of the system on certain hardware is nothing to do with googles comment. they said that in relation to the user experience/app compatibility/screen scaling side of things. covering their own ass with the plethora of tablets coming out and wanting to distance itself from the responsibility that joe public will assume they should have (when, rightly so, its not)
as for the phone network/gps etc they are the arbitary "minimum specs" that google set out to govern what devices would be allowed to use the google marketplace and other built in google apps. again it is just a way of trying to gain some form of quality control with the amount of people creating android based systems on crap hardware.
google dont "support" them anyway. its open source.
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
digibucc said:
ya know what, nevermind.
you are 100% right, never doubt that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ummmm ok
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
digibucc said:
i understand where you are coming from, but imo that's going a little far. maybe i am misunderstanding you a bit. the issues are because it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it.
even if it was feasible for people to "start from scratch" or even from the base android froyo source(not archos) I think it would call for more work than using the source and going backward.
rom devs have gotten good at picking apart and re-arranging, but starting from scratch is very difficult. rarely in any kind of programming are you "starting from scratch"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
digibucc said:
that was google's own answer.
android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network. it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen. those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps
Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
REAVER117 said:
When we start to get some optimized kernels I'm sure we'll see a nice performance boost. You don't have to rebuild the entire ROM from scratch to see significant improvements. Hopefully we'll get a custom bootloader. As a side note the Archos 70/101 has an OMAP 3640 which is a good deal faster than the snapdragon, first-gen anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Per /proc/cpuinfo it should actually be a 3630-1000, same as the Droid X (amongst others).
JasonOT said:
99% of what you've just written is wrong and/or has never been uttered by anyone at Google.
It's like everything you've just posted was gleaned from a game of telephone rather than a primary, secondary, or even tertiary source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so i just take your word for it instead?
how often do programmers re-write something that has already been done, from scratch? i'm not saying it doesn't happen - i'm saying far more often code gets recycled. if something is already made, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
and thank you for your primary, secondary and tertiary sources - as well as your enlightening explanation of what is true.
i can accept when I am wrong, but not just because some random person on the internet tells me I am, with nothing to prove his point any more than my own.
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
chulri said:
@digibucc
thefunkygibbon already gave you the answers why you're wrong
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
digibucc said:
sure -
that's why thefunkygibbon explained it away as unimportant , yet Jason argues it was never even said...
well which is it chulri, if you are paying attention so well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you being obtuse for a reason?
A device made to run android by Archos, and comes booting ONLY Android OS by default... is being said as not being made to run android....
Smells like trolling to me.
Maybe people just like to troll for no reason, blazingwolf.
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
digibucc said:
why do you people think they didn't come with Google Apps! Google doesn't support it! We never would have had to use g4a if they did...
obtuse? trolling? what is wrong with you you guys! I just said what i read, and everyone starts attacking me without anything to back up their side.
http://phandroid.com/2010/09/10/sho...d-not-meant-for-tablets-in-its-current-state/
http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Say...ets+May+Block+App+Market+Use/article19592.htm
http://androidcommunity.com/android...ays-google-may-block-app-market-use-20100910/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-not-designed-for-the-tablet-form-factor/
need more???
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/10/google-android-2-2-froyo-not-optimized-for-tablets/
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...gle-android-not-optimised-for-tablets--715550
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/10...droid-market-but-the-galaxy-tab-doesnt-count/
grow up please, I thought this place would be better than archosfriends, but not if everyone comes here and acts the same.
someone show me how what i said is not true. i am not purposely arguing with anyone, and i am not a damn troll! I just read something, repeated it, and got slammed for it. yet no one has shown how i was wrong, you just keep saying it. show me and i'll admit it, otherwise just drop it, please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. "it is hardware that is not meant to have android running on it."
It's running the same CPU/GPU SOC as the Droid X with half the RAM. It has a capacitive display. The only real difference is the resolution of the display and lack of cellular radio. That's a far cry from what you wrote.
If it were, say, Android running on an old PowerPC CPU, you'd be correct.
2. "android is meant to have a mobile network, cell phone network."
Uhh, no. There's no reason Android needs a mobile network.
3. "it's also not meant to be at the size or resolution of the (A70/101) screen."
While true, it's rather irrelevant. And the statement that followed it...
4. " those two things alone cause the majority of the problems people have with non-archos android apps"
...is completely wrong.
For starters, the majority of people aren't having problems with non-Archos apps. Secondly, the majority of people having problems, are having problems due to Archos' distribution of Froyo. Those that stayed with 2.1 aren't having nearly as many problems.
Yes, a small handful of apps don't work well due to the increased resolution. A small handful of apps will only cover a portion of the display. Note that they are a small handful. The vast vast majority of Android apps work perfectly well on the Archos tabs.
5. "Google themselves said they do not support Android on tablets, as they are not made for them. i can't be more specific as i only know so much about Android, but if Google said it wasn't made for it, that's what i say too."
"Not made for them" is, again, a far cry from the truth. Not designed with tablets in mind, or even not optimized, is more like it. Like thefunkygibbon already told you, Google making those comments was strictly to cover their own asses when people get upset that they can't play games like Guitar Hero -- that represent maybe 5% of all apps -- because they aren't well coded and cannot scale to greater resolutions.
You've made a mountain out of a moehill, and the 7 links you just posted support this notion. So yes, obtuse and/or trolling are both justified descriptions of your Chicken Little act.
It's true its not made for tablets. It will work on them, but it was made with phones in mind. In other words, its a matter of the thought behind the software. What it is catered to. Its mostly the little things. Icon spacing on the default home page. Lots of little things. If they didn't make that statement they would get slammed about all of those little things. Its not really a hardware issue, more of a functionality and UI issue.
I am not here to start a flame war. I am here to express my honest opinion. I would be more than happy to engage in polite rhetoric, but I will ignore any post containing personal attacks and completely illogical jumps/wild conjecture.
I have been paying very close attention to the OPMOSH movement, and I must say, I am extremely disappointed with what I have seen. To those who have already stopped, I thank you for either realizing that this movement is not going to accomplish its stated goal, or for giving up and moving on to another manufacturer's device, which I truly hope you are enjoying.
For those still pursuing this course of action, I offer the following:
Motorola Mobility, in response to a very poorly written reply from one of their Facebook page operators, stated that they were working with carriers to provide a solution that allowed their devices to be open to developers, and still stisfied their overall security policies. This statement was not a promise to unlock anything, merely stating that they were working towards a solution.
In April of 2011, Motorola released a statement that it was their intention to offer unlockable/relockable bootloaders across their portfolio in late 2011 where carriers would allow it. Again, this statement is not a promise, but a clarification and expansion of their Facebook reply in January. They were aiming for deployment in late 2011, but they didn't explicitly state that there would definitely be an unlock tool at that time.
In October of 2011, Motorola stated that the Motorola Razr would have an unlockable bootloader if the carrier wanted it. This statement is indeed a promise, but there was no timeline given for its deployment. If they were still on course for late 2011, I'm absolutely certain they would have been more than happy to announce that as well. Since they did not say the tool would be available at launch, nor did they say when it would be available, the only logical conclusion is that it would be made available when it was ready and the proper agreements had been reached with each specific carrier, which I'd gather is more difficult than simply notifying the carrier of their intended action.
And so, we come to OPMOSH. The thread was started on the xda website on January 4th of 2012. The idea was that if enough people screamed loud enough, and long enough, and disrupted their operationss enough, Motorola Mobility would give in to the demands of the community and provide the unlock tool that was "promised" nearly a year prior.
Except there was no promise, there is no "right" to having an unlocked bootloader. There is a possible FCC violation, but at this point I'm absolutely sure they are aware of the situation, and we can let them go about their investigation. They won't tell us the progress on such investigation, but continually showering them with notifications will not speed the process.
Motorola's position is fairly well laid out in post #40 of the Razr Developer Edition discussion thread on their official forums. For those who don't want to Google it, essentially one of the forum managers states that they have had issues with working with the developer community in the past, and are not exactly jumping at the chance to open what they see as a Pandora's box of sorts. And, based on the actions taken by many supporting OPMOSH, I really can't blame them. The community has shown that they are willing to maliciously disrupt Motorola's normal business operations because they want something they are not entitled to in the first place. OPMOSH is the equivalent of a smear campaign, and if Motorola were to give in at this point and provide an unlock tool, it would only open them to further abuse from the community, or anyone else who wants a particular feature they think is "necessary" or their "right".
And before anyone throws the "it can't be *insert carrier*, they let the Nexus/HTC/Samsung phone be unlocked", I'm certain that each carrier has an agreement with each phone manufacturer that differs in key aspects. In the Verizon/Motorola agreement, there could very well be a clause that prevents Motorola from unlocking their devices. Obviously, encrypting the locked bootloader was Motorola's choice, but by doing so they can more effectively market their products to the lucrative enterprise and government accounts, who welcome such details to retain the integrity of their intranets. I know several IT departments that have issued Droid X2s, and more recently Razrs, to replace aging Blackberries for precisely this reason. True, some others are starting to use HTC and Samsung handsets, but there is no denying that Motorola produces the most secure and business oriented devices of any current major manufacturer.
And so, it is my firm opinion that based upon the above arguments, OPMOSH needs an immediate and total cease and desist. We are shooting ourselves in the foot at this point. They are removing/ignoring posts on their Facebook because that is their right. They are removing/ignoring tweets because that is their right. We do not have the right to abuse, slander, or otherwise disrupt any corporate entity, when they are well within their own rights to distribute their products within the confines of their legal obligations based upon binding carrier agreements which were most likely made long before having a locked bootloader became such a huge issue.
If you do not like the handset you have, sell or trade it for another one through Swappa, eBay, or Craigslist. If you like the handset you have, then be patient. I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining, and will move forward with their stated intent of unlocking their bootloaders where they can, and possibly (hopefully) working to renegotiate their carrier agreements to allow unlocked bootloaders. Thinking that all it takes for Motorola to unlock their bootloaders is to flip a switch and there will be no repercussions to that decision is to not only overlook important facts, but in the end is simply wishful thinking. If it really was that simple, then all HTC phones would have been unlockable as soon as their site went live.
Regardless, by pitching the internet equivalent of a child's fit, constantly bombarding Motorola's social media outlets, and wasting the time of several Motorola employees in the process, we are only reaffirming Motorola's view of our lack of trustworthiness as a community.
I, for one, love my Motorola device. I will continue to hack it to my liking and to the best of my ability. I will share anything I think is cool or interesting with the community because I want to do so, not because I am or feel obligated to. I will make the choice to believe that I am not limited by the manufacturer of my device, but only by my imagination and ingenuity. I will continue to support the countless devs who use their precious personal time to enhance my user experience far beyond what I thought possible.
Finally, I will continue to believe that Motorola still intends to follow through on their statements, and are working toward a solution that will allow us to have the freedom to do as we please with our phones, while providing a strong and secure experience to the customers who require such things.
I appreciate anyone who has made it this far, and apologize for the wall of text. I hope that my plea does not go unnoticed, and can bring at least some sanity to our community.
TL;DR : Motorola never promised us anything. We do not have any right to an unlocked bootloader, any more than we have a right to use exploits in the Android code to gain root access. OPMOSH is a smear campaign that is likely to only serve to deepen Motorola's distrust in the Android development community. Only by stopping OPMOSH, and showing faith in Motorola as a company, will they ever see fit to give us what we ask for, and start to close the massive rift that has come between us.
As an aside, I am in no way affiliated with Motorola or any of its partners. I'm just a guy who is severely disappointed at the lack of reason and basic decency shown by the Motorola development community with regards to this situation. I have no illusion that my opinion means anymore than anyone else's, but I felt that I must at least try to forestall what I see as the only possible outcome should this operation continue, which is that Motorola will issue a statement that despite their best efforts they did not find a solution which is feasible at this time beyond offering special "developer edition" phones.
Kindly post a link to this "post #40" of which you speak of...
I have tried looking for it on their Support Forums, and their Developer Forums but I could not seem to find it.
This is an interesting post, and - if nothing else - I appreciate the amount of thought you've put into it.
I can agree on some points, and do feel that social media smear campaigns and/or armchair activism will accomplish little beyond hot air, as Motorola have not shown any indication that they're willing to budge. Endless Facebook spam does little to aid anyone, since the poor social media team and other customer-facing representatives are, in all likelihood, on the side of the customers they have to deal with on a daily basis, and have little to no power to make the fundamental changes we seek.
I have no doubt that there are Motorola representatives both among us, and on 'our side', as it were. There have been leaks galore, including one that resulted in the Atrix's bootloader being unlocked, a massive boon for its community. The GSM RAZR has already seen an early ICS leak, which was very welcome. Whispers and rumours have it that Moto has had some falling out with the developer community at some point. If anyone knows more about this, I'm very interested.
What you're missing, here, is a combination of expectation and impression. To make it personal, this is the first Motorola device I have personally owned, as there simply haven't been any flagship Moto devices that came in GSM flavours as well as CDMA (Aside from the too-little-too-late nobody-really-cares Milestone range, and the Atrix, which was a great idea that ended up outdated by launch). The RAZR's wonderful industrial design spoke to me, as did its SAMOLED screen, as Samsung have spoiled me and I can't stand LCDs any more. So I took the plunge, shifting from the very popular and very well supported Galaxy S II. No offense to Moto, their hardware is lovely, but their software is awful, the battery life is awful (A bigger battery is a very blunt force solution, re: RAZR MAXX), and it disappoints me greatly that I can’t change that when I could with my past three Android phones, and even my last Windows Mobile phone. I don't fully regret making the shift, but in retrospect, I wish I'd bought a Galaxy Note or Galaxy Nexus instead.
There are reasons for locking bootloaders that, disagree as I may, make a degree of sense. There's 'security', there's DRM content, there's enterprise IT requirements, and there's (supposedly) carrier requirements. But at this point, there's really not much reason to keep it locked, as the only thing it does is prevent running unsigned kernels. ROMs can be flashed, security can be breached, bloatware can be removed, and all that reasoning is essentially null and void. There is no advantage to a locked bootloader when a device is already rooted, it really doesn't provide any added security - indeed, the ability to flash one's own custom kernel compiled from source is the domain of the security conscious, not the casual user who might haphazardly harm their device - which, again, is certainly possible without the bootloader being unlocked.
There is really no good, specific argument in favour of locking the bootloader, especially when other OEMs – see: HTC, Sony Ericsson – are happy to provide tools that allow this, and Motorola did lead consumers to believe that the RAZR would be unlocked in much the same manner. A quick Googling leads me to this post here, which I believe to be the origin: http://ausdroid.net/2011/10/21/motorola-razr-to-be-unlockable/
Here, one Christy Wyatt is quoted as saying that the GSM variant of the RAZR would have an unlockable/relockable bootloader, and that Verizon had disabled this feature. The interesting thing about “where carriers allow” is that a large number of GSM RAZRs are sold SIM-free, and contain no carrier branding. There is no carrier to disallow the unlocking of the bootloader. Where is the excuse here?
I think it’s safe to say that the majority of RAZR owners pushing for the bootloader unlock would be happy to give up any features Moto – or carriers – feel the bootloader needs to be locked to enable. Webtop? DRM? Citrix? Enterprise security? Honestly, it seems like Moto is trying to market their devices to a specific niche, the BYO corporate market, and it feels to me that there’s too many compromises for what amounts to a relatively small segment (Or one that’s happy with iOS/Blackberry/et cetera anyway). Take a record of my IMEI. Disable as many stock features as you like. I would even give up Activesync support if I could have that unlocked bootloader.
These phones are hardware platforms, computing platforms. Back when the original Milestone was released – the delayed GSM counterpart to the original Droid – its bootloader was locked where the Droid’s was not. Motorola representatives went as far as to suggest that development enthusiasts purchase the then-current Nexus One instead of a Milestone. Bad form to actively turn their customers towards the competition. Android development has bloomed in the last few years, and it’s now expected that one should be able to modify one’s mobile device, just as has been the case with desktop hardware for decades. When one buys a phone, one owns that hardware. Even if they only have a ‘license’ to Motorola’s (Flawed) flavour of the software, they currently have no choice but to use it, and it’s an expectation of the open-source Android operating systems that its hardware platforms should be open for development.
There’s two more factors, here. One is damage control. Regardless of how this came about, consumers DID get the impression that – at the very least – the open market GSM RAZR would have an unlockable bootloader. It does not. Moto have only issued vague statements, some of which specifically mentioned software solutions (rather than “Buy another phone”) but have done very little to clarify the situation, or to placate their increasingly upset userbase.
Motorola might not ‘owe’ us an unlocked bootloader, per se, but they do owe their audience some clarity and some answers. It was also suggested in the above article that the bootloader solution may be rolled out with the Ice-Cream Sandwich updates, but this too has been a point of contention. Many are very disappointed with the Q2 timeframe when, again, the expectation was that the RAZR would be swiftly updated and not leave fans disappointed that they opted for a device shipping with an old OS revision when the new one was announced the same day as the RAZR itself. Moto have not been clear – and yes, I know there’s the old business mantra of underpromise and overdeliver, but it’s been going from bad to worse. Which brings me to the final factor…
The ‘Developer Edition’ is no solution at all. It is hardly fair to anyone, least of all existing customers who purchased the original RAZR in good faith, to announce a hardware revision to circumvent a firmware restriction. No warranty, full retail price for the same hardware, and just to make it laughable, the development device can’t even be unlocked at present.
TL;DR?
Yes, childish spam and/or smear campaigns on social media channels are childish. But there is no good reason for the bootloader to remain locked, and many customers purchased the device under the impression that an unlock method would be provided. Motorola’s communication has been poor at best, and people are understandably upset.
"I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining"
Please explain.
How long have you worked for Motorola?
And a short answer to your question:
NO!
In my opinion the problem is not only the locked bootloader. The bootloader is only a trigger that forced people to go over the edge. The problem is the arrogant and ignorant stance the motorola has been taking toward the common user of their devices. I know we live in an ultra capitalist world where "big players" can get away with anything, but in my opinion that alone should not be the reason for all of us to just give in and take it up our butts. Maybe these kinds of rebellions don't bring much success right away, but it sure as hell reminds these people that what they are doing will make some noise, and maybe will at least force them to think twice next time.
If we talk about this specific case: I understand that to some 400+ euro is not a lot of money, but to some it is almost their entire monthly paycheck and if i am willing to spend so much money on a product, the producer can expect from me wanting to get some "love" in return. Of course it is not their legal obligation, but just common logic that not all of us will be quiet and let them get away with anything and that is very important....what i was saying earlier. I'm sure in todays world when people are being eaten alive by the current political and social system, a little "love" (even if its fake), can take a company a long way and can in a long run be a market advantage and bring more money to that company. And money is the only thing they really care about. Well maybe 10.000-15.000 signatures are very little, but 5+ million users of xda now have heard or know for a fact (many known before OPMOSH) that motorola is the most unfriendly user company in the market. These people being a bit of tech-geeks have friends that come to them for advice when buying new phones,.... and very soon you come to a number ob 20+ million people having an argument against buying your product. And that is a very bad thing in todays highly competitive market where differences between products are very small.
So what i want to say is, that no matter what the way, it is always important that not all people are quiet, because even if it doesn't look like it straight away, it does makes a difference....maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but surely the day after that
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1511364
It does in fact elicit a response, so it is working
Im happy I also own a Xperia. I got my Razr because I belived the an article about the loader. Wont do that again.
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp/2012...e-for-unlocked-2011-xperia-smartphone-models/
Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk
Well put by the OP and too have an honest opinion. I have followed the threads and it started strong but just like the whole "Occupy Wall Street/whatever city they wanna occupy" movement, it lost the true message and became a bunch of adults acting like spoiled 3 year olds when an adult tells them no. I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM. I understand however taking a stand for a product we own. If y'all desperately want an unlocked bootloader got get the GNex
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
onslaught86 said:
I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
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Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
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You like custom ROMs and claim not to care about unlocked bootloaders. Do you genuinely not see the fundamental contradiction in that, or are you just arguing the point because it's cool to be non-conformist these days?
Unlocking the bootloader affects you and your usage of the phone all of not - that's great, good for you. But it does affect plenty of other people, and your being a little tired of seeing them complain on social media channels does not invalidate their claim.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
Do not attack or offend other users regardless of your PERSONAL opinions. Keep this thread clean from abusive, flaming or attacks.
I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
What do you think of having everyone from XDA and the CM community using the DINC 4G LTE file Better Business Bureau complaints against verizon? It made a business decision not to give us updates, and has deliberately removed the DINC 4g from the HTC Unlock program. They shouldn't be allowed to abandon the platform and to remove unlocking ability that was there.
BBB asks them to respond within 14 days. [edit: link removed]
or have you already tried this route?
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I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal). HTC can justify the ability to unlock the bootloader pre-public availability as a means to let developers directly related to software development and quality assurance alter the ROM before release. To a handful of end users who get the device in the early days of release, they get to sneak in and use the unlocker under the "Other devices" category of the program. I suspect we owe HTC a thank you for dragging their feet for a week before disabling the unlock ability for this (and several other) device(s). There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
On the topic of abandoning the platform, software-wise, the last available software update for the Incredible 4G still works with reasonable stability and all advertised features are enabled. It is natural for technology devices to age and need replacement; a balance has to be struck between user content or disdain and extent of support. Verizon has apparently deemed there will be very little blowback by prematurely ending software updates. Considering the number of users I see in the XDA forum section for this phone, I'd guess they're right. About the only sticking point that could be leveraged to force a software update out of Verizon is if there are security vulnerabilities that are either being actively exploited or pose a real threat of being exploited in the near future.
Succinctly, we are at the mercy of Verizon's "generosity" concerning extended functionality of, and software updates for, the phones on their network. With these thoughts, I believe we can only ask them to help us out... with reason, anger, begging, or whatever tactic you find most influential. I don't think we can force their hand.
Your thoughts XDAers?
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone. While I did not expect this phone to be the left-handed, red-haired step-child twice removed orphan of Verizon, it is a great phone with a 4" screen. The size is good (still prefer OG Droid) and the processor and internet speeds are great. I personally am quite content with this phone. We have been blessed with some extremely talented developers and supporters who have
Developed a method to unlock despite HTC/Verizon
Developed two methods for s-off:
DirtyRacun - IMHO, unlimited.io did a great job
FacePalm - Haven't tried, but looks great
Two great recoveries:
Official CWM Recovery, Plus PhilZ
TWRP Recovery
Developed an Incredible Rock Solid Sense ROM in ViperLTE
Developed a solid, official CyanogenMod ROM .
There are probably more, but those are just off of the top of my head. I am also still seeing great ongoing development work for ROMs for this phone. Sure, this phone doesn't have the plethora of ROMs that the OG Droid, Dinc2, Rezound, or [insert model here], but what we do have is solid.
I'm not exactly sure what Verizon owes us. We have a great phone with a great 4GLTE network (at least in my area). It should also be noted that Verizon actually put out an OTA for the OG Dinc around 2+ years after its release with "Improvements and fixes". I would expect the same for this phone as well. I too believe that threats, anger, etc. will not do anything more than generate ill will.
Just my $0.03.
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock? As mentioned above, we have a proved method to unlock bootloader and/or gain s-off. Even HTC's site says that unlocking bootloader through their "official" site may void your warranty.
HTC Dev said:
Please understand that you will not be able to return your device to the original state and going forward your device may not be held covered under the warranty for all claims resulting from the unlocking of the bootloader. HTC bears no responsibility if your device is no longer usable afterwards.
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The only thing to take away from this is to avoid Verizon and HTC. They may not owe us anything more than we received, but they are clearly sub-par companies compared to others. Unfortunately, I can't ditch Verizon just now because I'm on a shared plan, but I will never buy an HTC phone again.
junkmail9 said:
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone....
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock?
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Just to clarify, I'm not content with the support Verizon has offered for this phone, I just realize that we cannot expect them to continue support. I am still not sure about the best avenues of communication with Verizon Wireless, so in a feeble attempt to get their attention, I write a short #openletter on G+.
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
The open letter seems pointless, besides maybe allowing other people to see and take note that Verizon ignores certain customers. As far as our phone though, no point really. Anyone you reach through G+, Facebook, Twitter, Verizon's customer service contacts, etc. will have no real power to do anything. They just give the typical "sorry, we're doing our best" garbage. The message never reaches anyone important enough to actually do anything. The only way a message may get to them is if the user base is very large, but even if we all wrote to them everyday it wouldn't help. Not enough people for them to care. As you said, we're at their mercy. Just have to wait.
mdmower said:
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
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This is an excellent point I had not considered. I was not thinking about the larger issue, (nor am I savvy with the upcoming CM installer). Unfortunately, I have run into a few companies that have seriously dummied down their products because, as one tech support person told me, "some users may have a problem with the advanced features so we removed them." While I can try and understand that point, it was really frustrating because some advanced features I had come to rely on were removed in the product upgrade. Simply because some people could not comprehend how to use it properly? Is Verizon trying to protect us from ourselves, dummy down the phones for "the uneducated masses," or simply trying to force their customers to live with Verizon-installed bloatware?
Okay I have My own say to this.!
Okay so I left AT&T network when I owned the HTC Inspire 4g and moved on to Verizon because there service was better in my area and I purchased the HTC Droid Incredible 4G LTE as my first phone with Verizon, I came to like the phone because it was fast, snappy, and good on battery....... But I constantly waited for update to jellybean ( Sense 4+ ) which in reality would make the device more efficient and smoother than it was on Ice Cream Sandwich... And finally I heard the news that we were going to get an update to jellybean in the beginning of 2013.. But after so much time of waiting I finally gave up hope and said ***k the device and went back to AT&T...... and bought the HTC One XL because it recieved updates to sense 5. The device is like an older sibling to the inc4g with close to the same specs. I sold the Incredible 4g because I hated the lack of support for this device... The only good thing going for it was CM10 and the amazing sense kernel. This community deserves more than what has been given to them so far... So my question is why Verizon drop support for us.???? If this community received jelly bean j defiantly would sell my XL and come back to this community......
This is my only my concern.
Sincerely,
24ky
Sent from my HTC One XL using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds". i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago ( also how come htc bent over backwards because verizon wanted the bootload unlock for the ONE removed). instead of open letters or angry tweets and emails, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you. how do you think verizon got so good? the used to listen to their customers. now that they are self sustaining they dont need to listen to us anymore. but i bet if their wallet was hit the would. they would bring back unlimited data, remove the block of google wallet, ect....
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
synisterwolf said:
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds" i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago. instead of open letters or angry tweets, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you.
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
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This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
somerandomname1 said:
This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
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this too. maybe if HTC where to step in and help us it would be different.
OP not trying to troll or anything or start a war. i just wanted to get that out their. we do have an option to take our money somewhere else. or at least when this contract is over. ive said it before, i need unlimited data. i dont have wifi anywhere i work and im barely at home so if i have to give up my data plan i will give up my business too. im going to miss there unbeatable coverage but i cant stand to be hit in the balls over and over again with a smile on their face. :/
mdmower said:
I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
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My 2 cents on this from bitter experience. You will get zilch. You will waste precious amounts of your life trying hard to convince a rigid management who can care so little they'd be happy to break your phone to pieces and hand you another from their stockpile of dinc4g's just to get rid of them ASAP. I've gone through the whole lot with BBB complaints etc. for the Droid X2 by Motorola. haha, wasted my life there. And the countless pleadings to release the ICS ROM that HTC clearly developed for the Dinc2 (Incredible S, international variant got the ICS update) only to get on the Verizon chopping block and get its head unceremoniously severed, taught me one thing and that is we as consumers have knowingly chosen this path, that will give us limited to no flexibility on customization to stay on VZW and we have to "deal" with it.
With all good intentions, I request all to keep your expectations rock bottom. You have better chances of going to the moon on a future Russian spacecraft than convincing Verizon as to why this may be a good idea.
Sincerely,
A disgruntled Droid™ user.
here has been my android experience. started on og inc oct 2010 first droid phone considered ''high-end'' at the time (8 mp camera saaaaay whaaaat??!) then dinc2 great phone but compared to the galaxy S II and the galaxy nexus at the time it was a ''mid range" phone. now with the inc4g it is very ''mid range'' compared to what is out now. the galaxy notes and s4's and the 50 different htc One(s). if you want many different roms to flash to fix your ''addiction'' go nexus or one of the mainstream phones. you will find 100 different "Unofficial CM10.X" roms with "user tweaks" and "kernel tweaks" that in all actuality are nothing more then a reposync from source. yeah they might have a few different mods but they are usually so similar that you will not/could not tell the difference. like someone mentioned earlier I would rather have a few solid roms. a good sense (viper) or if you're an aosp guy like me there's cm. I think anybody who saw the specs of this phone (incredible 4g) and thought, "hey this is going to be the next BIG THING." I'm sorry to tell you that you were mistaken. xda dev support of a phone is only as good as the devs that own the device, and in our case we have a very small amount of active devs.
So I am the a-hole that emailed mdmower. I apologize profusely. When I saw your first post, I almost slunk away in shame, never to show my face here again. I am not even being a little bit facetious. You do great work for a community of people and I abused (what obviously is) an important rule. And I'm really sorry.
In an attempt to redeem myself just a little bit, let me point out one thing that you might not know:
mdmower said:
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal) [SNIP] There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
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Actually, some states may have more favorable law here. First and foremost, many states have an unfair/deceptive business practices law that are distinct from the false advertising law. Example: New York has GBL Section 349 (trade practices), and 350 (Advertising). These are consumer-oriented statutes and so they have some bite.
On this point, while Verizon has never said they would provide us with Jelly Bean, there are some nice facts here like how many people were locked into 2 year contracts on a phone that Verizon stopped updating during their two year period. I've seen suggestions that Verizon is pulling this with older phones in order to force upgrades, and if true, that would be the basis for a claim. But here, I think the HTCDev unlock is actually pretty damning. We should be entitled to take discovery into the real reasons why Verizon forced HTC to remove the phone from the program. Given the repeated warnings about waiver of warranty, and the presence of other VZW phones in the program, it's hard to believe it's a support issue.
Finally -- of note is that the ACLU has filed an FTC complaint on this subject earlier this year. Unfortunately I cannot post the link since I just registered for this post (long time lurker) but it's the 2nd hit for "april FTC complaint android" (see pages 6-9) Their basis is the potential for security flaws which go unfixed. The relief they are requesting is pretty broad. I'm actually surprised that there haven't been follow-on civil suits already.
Anyway, I am really sorry again. I'm going to crawl back under the rock I came from now.
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
PrimePalaver said:
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
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Haha burn! Just kidding... it's cool.
Guys and Gals, we have been struggling with unlocking the S4 Bootloader for well over a year. I stay current with where our progress is. I'm not a developer and i know this is a crazy suggestion but what have we got to lose?
Why don't we pool our old devices and use OpenCL (or similar) to tap into our phone GPUs and try a targeted attack on our bootloader? Yes, I know, I know it will take a billion years for a million supercomputers to brute force the SHA1 key. But headway has been made in the last year in finding ways to target attacks on SHA1. I'm not saying it will be easy...it won't. Hell, I don't even know how to get started but that's why I bring the request to you guys. I have 2 or 3 old devices....we all do. Plus if we continue this then every year each of us is adding a device to the computational network.
I know there will be many "nay-sayers" so don't post with negativity. If you are interested and want to contribute then post and let me know.
@Surge1223 @joshuabg @ryanbg @NighthawkXL @RuggedHunter @SamuriHL
I like the idea but this could take a very long time, but there is a chance that one of the first keys we gen is the right key. And why exactly did you mention me?
Sent from my OtterX running AICP using Tapatalk
Why utilize under powered devices?
http://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/sha-1-crypto-protocol-cracked-using-amazon-cloud/
I'm going to bow out, though, as I'd only be one of the naysayers on this.
joshuabg said:
I like the idea but this could take a very long time, but there is a chance that one of the first keys we gen is the right key. And why exactly did you mention me?
Sent from my OtterX running AICP using Tapatalk
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Because you keep up with the threads on our bootloader, so I figured you would have some interest.
SamuriHL said:
Why utilize under powered devices?
http://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/sha-1-crypto-protocol-cracked-using-amazon-cloud/
I'm going to bow out, though, as I'd only be one of the naysayers on this.
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Because they are free. Our community doesnt have a good track record for paying for research and development to benefit themselves directly, much less benefit the greater good. I didn't post to claim I have THE answer...I posted with a crazy ass idea which I hoped would spark some ingenuity in others. Anyway, thanks for the link and thanks for being honest.
Hash Collisions
Finding a hash collision isn't like bruteforcing a password. It's (very basically) finding another file that has the same hash. It's not so much guessing the 'password' as it is hoping that mathematical computation outputs the same hash as another file, by sheer chance. There are academic and private researchers who have been working on this for years, with exponentially more processing power and resources than we could ever hope to see. While I admire your will to find a solution, this won't be happening for us. Your efforts are more fruitful by calling Samsung/Verizon/AT&T and complaining, leaving feedback, and doing it relentlessly. I call/email/chat with Samsung and Verizon on a daily basis, leaving feedback and asking to have my bootloader unlocked. If enough fuss is made, they may come around. Verizon and AT&T are the main targets, I just call Samsung when Verizon gets sick of hearing me.
To put it into perspective, you have a greater chance of winning the powerball 100 times, and getting hit by lightning every time you go to collect your prize.
Even today's most basic quantum computers that are being developed could theoretically take years to crack SHA1 (when used properly), granted it could do it in much less time then any Von Neumann machine could do. But nonetheless it's unrealistic to use this as a method to crack encryption. You'd have a better chance getting the NSA to provide the info on backdoors they have (assuming the Snowden leaks are true) that they have broken nearly all modern encryption by providing researchers with a flawed RNG.
Anybody think we'll get some kind of update pushed out allowing us to unlock our bootloader now that lg wont be making phones anymore?
I'm honestly surprised no one has chimed in. At all. These are some great phones. Being able to root and customize would make this phone a ton better. But I don't think lg cares at all.
I wouldn't count on it, personally. I'm frankly surprised that they've committed to 2-3 major OS upgrades (or as many years of support) for their post-2019 flagships as is, like our V60. I think that, beyond I suppose a renewed focus on their software update department, they're just going to completely wash their hands with mobile. And I still think they'll ultimately fail us on that promise of 2 to 3 years of software support. With no more active R&D and development on new devices and their software, we can probably completely rule out refreshed UIs and just expect bi-monthly security updates, maybe Android 12 on our V60s, and perhaps Android 13 on the Wings and Velvets. If that. I'm still extremely skeptical.
Edit - Edited to fix the supposed final Android versions for the V60s, Velvets, Wings, etc.
Mejilan said:
I wouldn't count on it, personally. I'm frankly surprised that they've committed to 2-3 major OS upgrades (or as many years of support) for their post-2019 flagships as is, like our V60. I think that, beyond I suppose a renewed focus on their software update department, they're just going to completely wash their hands with mobile. And I still think they'll ultimately fail us on that promise of 2 to 3 years of software support. With no more active R&D and development on new devices and their software, we can probably completely rule out refreshed UIs and just expect bi-monthly security updates, maybe Android 11 on our V60s, and perhaps Android 12 on the Wings and Velvets. If that. I'm still extremely skeptical.
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We do hace android 11 for V60, at least TMobile model. I wouldnt bet on A12 though. They should release bootloader code and what not though so we can at least get a bootloader unlock and aim for custom roms and such. Just because there backing out of the smartphone business now dosent mean there isnt a chance for comeback later. If they just screw everyone completely right now there not only ruining chances of a future comeback but also ruining there already bad name.
jwarrior319 said:
We do hace android 11 for V60, at least TMobile model. I wouldnt bet on A12 though. They should release bootloader code and what not though so we can at least get a bootloader unlock and aim for custom roms and such. Just because there backing out of the smartphone business now dosent mean there isnt a chance for comeback later. If they just screw everyone completely right now there not only ruining chances of a future comeback but also ruining there already bad name.
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Yeah, I'm on AT&T and got A11 a couple of updates back. I too would be shocked to get A12 as well, though it sounds like they're at least planning on supporting the V60 that long. They have no real interest in catering to folks who jailbreak or root, as that makes up an infinitesimally small part of their potential demographic. In other words, catering to folks like us that post to forums like this isn't going to be any kind of factor for them in the short-term or long-term future, IMO. We are not the audience that makes or breaks their mobile business, and we never will be. As for the post you quoted, I meant to say "maybe Android 12 on our V60s, and Android 13 on the Velvets and Wings." (stress on the "maybe). I'll fix that post.
I would love to see it, but I will not hold my breath. Would provide a great deal of goodwill toward the company.